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@THISHOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA

U.S. Agrees to Prisoner Swap for Alan Gross; Obama to Announce Cuba Policy Overhaul

Aired December 17, 2014 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Congressman, though, you served in the U.S. House of Representatives, the U.S. Congress does not seem likely to reverse the embargo on Cuba. The president will take whatever actions he can today including normalizing some relations, there will be an exchange of embassies. We'll have an embassy, the United States will, in Havana now, and Cuba will have an embassy in Washington, D.C., which is remarkable in and of itself.

But do you see the politics inside Congress? There's bipartisan support for normal relations but also fierce bipartisan opposition in some quarters.

REP. SAM FARR, (D), CALIFORNIA (voice-over): The strongest opposition in Congress in both the Republican and Democratic Parties is a few members who are Cuban-Americans, who have made it their political mission to block any progressive action. They're going to have to stand between the American people and the president on this one because I think the American people and the faith-based communities in this country, the trading groups, the business groups will all be behind normalizing relations. And so if Congress members can't get reelected unless they listen to the people and I think the American people will respond overwhelmingly in favor of the president's action.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: We're seeing a close-up picture of Alan Gross on the side of your screen. There's an image that was taken there of him disembarking from the plane. A lot of people have noted that he has lost a substantial amount of weight during his time in prison in Cuba, losing some 100 pounds. There was talk of some medical issues that he was having.

It really is something to see, John, when you see this happening. We've seen a few returns home in the last little while of Americans. We saw some other home comings of people and you try to imagine what you would be feeling in a moment like this.

We just got a statement from Senator Jeff Flake, who was on the plane as he was coming home with Alan Gross right now. Let me read you this statement out loud. It says, "This is a wonderful day for Alan Gross, for his wife, Judy, and their family. The manner in which they have endured this nightmare is worthy of praise and admiration. It was an honor to be with Alan as he touched down on U.S. soil --" You can see the still image of that. "-- after more than five years in a Cuban prison. When I visited Alan last month, he expressed the hope his ordeal might somehow lead to positive changes between the United States and Cuba with today's significant and far-reaching announcements I think it already has."

Indeed, the life of this man, Alan Gross, changing drastically today. In just a few minutes 30, minutes from now, President Obama will announce major changes in the U.S. relationship with Cuba as well.

PEREIRA: We want to thank Congressman Sam Farr for joining us.

We want to turn to justice reporter, Evan Perez, who covered the relationship extensively when he was a reporter for the "Wall Street Journal"; and Ana Navarro, who is, we should point out, a resident of Miami.

Great perspective to get -- perspective from both of you.

Evan, you have been covering this issue, this ongoing issue for some time. I'm curious about your thoughts and what it will feel like big picture wise.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Michaela, I'll tell you one example of how bad the relationship between Cuba and the United States was in 2009 when President Obama took office. I remember meeting the head of the Cuban intrasection here in Washington and we were talking about he wanted to get good Chinese food and I suggested going to a restaurant in northern Virginia in one of the suburbs, and he told me he couldn't go because he's not allowed to travel outside the Beltway. They had restrictions on how far Cuban diplomats -- the Cuban intrasection is, the de facto embassy, at least until now, until the president changes this with his executive action. So that gives you a sense of how bad this relationship was. The diplomats couldn't even travel to get Chinese food outside the Beltway. They couldn't travel 25 miles outside of New York City.

Beginning, last year those restrictions started ending. We've come a long way and I think what is driving this, I think, is demographics, frankly. The fact that you have younger Cubans that don't feel the embargo has worked. You have older Cubans who still support it. But younger Cubans don't. Also since 1980, and the demographic change in the population of Cubans, who have come here, they're mostly economic migrants. They're not here because they're fleeing political oppression, I think Ana and I would disagree on this, but that is also driving this. This is why the Obama administration feels that it's safe to do something like this.

BERMAN: Ana, Evan was mentioning where the support for this move today will come from but there is also fierce opposition as well. You are living in Miami right now. What reaction are you hearing there?

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I have been communicating since the early morning with Cuban-American leaders, with the Cuban-American congressional delegation, both Democrat and Republican. And Evan is right. He and I do disagree on some of this. I disagree that the demographics have changed as much as some would like us to believe they've changed. They've changed some. And initially, after this recent election, there were mistaken reports that Cuban-Americans had voted majority for Charlie Crist, and they haven't. In fact, if you take a look at Florida, there's not one, one statewide elected official that does not support the embargo. The one congressman, Democrat Cuban-American who did support the embargo just got beat like a drum -- His name was Joe Garcia -- by a new generation of Cubans, Carlos Corbello, who is in his 30s and who does support sanctions on Cuba. So I think you won't see any change on the congressional opposition from the Cuban-American front. And though they are, they can be very partisan at times on other issues. When it comes to the Cuba issue, Bob Menendez, Ted Cruz, Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, Mario Diaz-Balart, Marco Rubio, are one front. They are a solid wall.

BERMAN: What you can see here is there's still a fierce discussion and a fierce debate about U.S. relations with Cuba. All I have to say is think about when the U.S. Senate needs to confirm the president's nominee to be the first ambassador to Cuba. That will be fascinating.

Ana Navarro, Evan Perez, thank you so much.

In just a few minutes, the president of the United States will speak in the cabinet room and announce these major changes in the relationship between the United States and Cuba. The biggest changes, I think, that we have seen in well over 50 years since the embargo and a series of other measures were imposed over time.

Joining us is Wolf Blitzer. Wolf is going to cover the president's speech when it takes place just after noon.

I wonder if you can put this in context, Wolf, the historical impact of this in this country and in Cuba and what this means?

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: It's an historic moment. This is a most significant development in U.S./Cuban relations going back to the revolution in Cuba back in 1961.

It's been clear to me from the very start of the Obama administration this is precisely what the president wanted to do. He wanted to normalize relations, establish full diplomatic relations between the United States and Cuba. As Cuba, by the way, has with, I think, all of the countries in North and South America right now. But there were several problems along the way, certainly political problems, as Ana Navarro just pointed out, a lot of domestic opposition not only from Republicans but from some Democrats as well.

At the same time, there's been growing political support for an improved relationship between the U.S. and Cuba and that is about to happen with the full normalization of relations, diplomatic embassies, not just an intrasection, there's a Cuban intrasection here in Washington, a U.S. intrasection in Havana, but now there will be ambassadors in both countries. There will be an opening of tourism, of trade. This is really a significant change.

The president has wanted to do it, but the imprisonment of Alan Gross was a serious impediment. Now that he has been released, obviously, that opens the door to what's going on. Notwithstanding in the way, certainly, John and Michaela, the final two years of his administration, he doesn't have to worry about politics anymore, getting reelected, right after the midterms, he thought this was a good time to normalize the relationship. That's what he's going to announce at the top of the hour.

PEREIRA: Wolf, stand by for a second.

We want to bring in Senator Marco Rubio, who joins us and we want to get his reaction to all of this going on.

Obviously, this is going to have a deep impact, a very personal way this is going to affect you as a Cuban-American, and also as a lawmaker in the state of Florida, which is has a very, very large Cuban-American population. Give me your reaction, personal and professional.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO, (R), FLORIDA: On the issue of Mr. Gross, I'm happy he'll be back with his family. He never should have been in a Cuban prison. He wasn't a spy. He was trying to provide telecommunication equipment to a small Jewish community there. And he's been a hostage for five years and the Cuban government almost allowed him to die in captivity. We're happy he's back with his family.

But all these other measures are truly outrageous and counterproductive. Here's why. The president is going to reestablish diplomatic relations with Cuba. He will increase the amount of remittances to the island. He's going to open up more commercial interaction and open up the banking sector and open up the telecommunications sector. What are the Cubans going to do? They'll release 53 political prisoners who can go to jail tomorrow if they decide to take up the cause of freedom and democracy and allow the United Nations to monitor conditions on the ground a little bit more closely. That's it. No democratic opening. No freedom of the press. No freedom of organization or assembly. No elections. No political parties. No democratic opening at all. For me, you talk about personally, the issue that I care about in Cuba is democracy. I want the Cuban people to have freedom and democracy and then they can choose any economic model they want. Nothing that's happening here will further that cause. On the contrary, it will set it back. It's a lifeline for the Castro regime that allows them to become more profitable, because they control every sector of the economy, and allow them to become a more permanent fixture for decades to come now. And the Cuban people are further away from democracy today because of this.

BERMAN: Senator, as we're speaking we see pictures on the other side of the screen of Alan Gross returning to the United States. We saw a picture of him seeing his wife in Cuba before he got on the plan to come back to the United States. There are two obviously very relieved people right there.

I want to pick up on your point about U.S.-Cuba relations because there are people, Senator, who will argue with you. If the goal of all the measures that have been in place for so long, the United States measures against Cuba, have been regime change, have been to change what's going on in Cuba, Fidel Castro -- well the Castros have been in power for more than 50 years now, so whatever efforts to change things didn't seem to work.

RUBIO: Well, first of all, I would say that you talk about the economic conditions in Cuba being so miserable, Cuba trades with every country in the world. The reason why they have an economic disaster is because their leaders are incompetent and their model of economics doesn't work. We don't have economic sanctions on Venezuela, and their economy is almost as bad as the Cuban economy is now because they follow the same model.

As far as it not working, it's the fundamental misunderstanding of why the embargo still matters. The embargo is leverage. These sanctions are leverage. Raul Castro is 80 something years old. From a biological standpoint, his days are numbered and there will be a change in government in Cuba and I think that will be precipitated by the continuing collapse of their sponsors in Caracas.

The question now is what kind of government takes over. For us, the embargoes serves and the sanctions serve as leverage to go to that new government or whoever their leaders are and say, we are prepared, as the law says in writing, to open up economic relationships and diplomatic relationships with Cuba, but you have to move on democratic changes. And that's not been done here. We've just lost a significant part of our leverage to make that happen here in the foreseeable future. Not a single democratic concession.

And by the way, this idea that the fact that there will now be more American products available in Cuba will bring about democracy is absurd. You can't point a single example in human history or recent history, especially where more economic trade has led to a democratic opening. China is as repressive as any government in the world and they've got full economic relations with the United States.

PEREIRA: I'm curious what you're hearing from people in your state. You've obviously been on the phone, hearing from folks in your state, leaders there, freedom the Cuban-American community. What are you hearing from folks?

RUBIO: Well, look, I mean, the -- among many of the exiles, there's a resistance to any sort of change whatsoever in policy. They would share many of the concerns I've just outlined.

There are people in the Cuban community who share our goals of bringing about democracy and they believe that if somehow there was more economic trade with Cuba that that would somehow create the conditions for an uprising or a dramatic change. I just don't know where there's ever happened. When has tourism ever brought about democracy? This government controls every aspect of life in Cuba, every aspect of life. Every single policy change that the U.S. Has ever made towards Cuba, whether it's more travel, more person to person contact, more remittances, they have manipulated every single one of them and they will manipulate this as well. This is a small island of 13 million people with an apparatus that's been in place for over 50 years. It controls every aspect of life in Cuba and it will control this as well. They will use all of these changes to their advantage. They will never allow any of these changes to undermine their grip on the island.

BERMAN: Senator, you obviously have a personal and professional interest in what is happening in Cuba. Quickly, were you briefed at all before this morning that this was happening?

RUBIO: No, I was aware of it last night but not from the administration. I chose not to divulge what I knew because I didn't want to endanger Mr. Gross' release. Obviously, there's a human element to it. I was briefed this morning at around 10:00 a.m. by Secretary Kerry, but I had already known about many of these changes. And, quite frankly, I was expecting them. For weeks, I've been asking Tony Blinken, who's been confirmed by the Senate, specifically about these topics and his answers, nebulous at best, led me to believe that something was in the works. And I think, of course, it's par for the course for this administration to announce it the day that Congress finally recesses. I think that was not by accident, either.

BERMAN: Senator, I want to ask you one question about your opinion about policy toward Cuba because you seem to say to me two things that are a little bit in opposition. You say the embargo and sanctions in our measures towards Cuba haven't worked because everyone else has been trading with Cuba all along, but then you say it's leverage in how we deal with Cuba in the future. Can you have both things at once? Can you have it be leverage and can you have it not working at the same time?

RUBIO: I think you misunderstood my first point. My first point was people often say the Cuban embargo is hurting the Cuban people, and my answer is that's absurd. The Cuban people get theoretically by- products from any nation on earth. The reason they don't have those products is not because of the Cuban embargo, it's because of their government being incompetent. Now, the U.S. embargo is leverage because Cuba cares. We're the United States. We're not some small country halfway around the world. We're the most powerful country on the planet. We're their closest neighbor geographically. They care deeply. Their number-one priority of the Cuban government is to affect U.S. foreign policy towards Cuba, and you see this consistently reflected in the people they try to influence in academia and the editorials that have now been a steady stream of editorials in "The New York Times" and the folks that are walking around the cabal here and the members, and colleagues of mine that are constantly being reached out to by the regime to try to get them on their side for these changes. There's a reason for that. They know if they can open up U.S. markets to their regime, they will have American companies investment in the status quo in Cuba. And what you're going to have now is American companies doing business in Cuba advocating here for us not to do anything to disrupt the status quo because it's good for their bottom line. And I know that to be true because, last week, we passed a bill here that supported the Democratic aspirations of people in Hong Kong, and my office got multiple calls from companies that do business in China asking us not to do it because they have an interest in the status quo. The same was true with Ukrainian sanctions and people that have business deals with Moscow. They want us not to do too much on the sanctions front. Now you'll see that with Cuba as well.

PEREIRA: Senator Marco Rubio, we appreciate your time. We know this is very, very close to home. Thanks for joining us here @THISHOUR.

RUBIO: Thank you. PEREIRA: We appreciate it.

I want to turn to -- I guess we have here in studio Rabbi Eli Abadi. He visited Alan Gross when Gross was in prison in Cuba.

Great to have you.

First of all, your reaction to knowing Mr. Gross is now back home on American soil?

ELI ABADI, RABBI: Well, I'm thrilled and very excited to hear that he's freed and what a wonderful time and occasion for him to be free as we celebrate the holiday of Hanukah where we celebrate the miracle of the oil. And this is truly a miracle that Alan Gross has been freed.

BERMAN: You spoke to him, you met with him in Cuba, correct?

ABADI: Yes.

BERMAN: What were his frustrations while he was in prison there? I'm sure he was shocked and infuriated at the Cuban regime. But did he feel like he was getting the support he wanted and needed from the American government all along?

ABADI: I tell you, when I visited him almost two years ago together with James Barron, a Cuban-American lawyer, he was frustrated at the Cuban government but he was more frustrated at the American government at that time. At that time, he was trying to refuse to meet with any American official because he felt that the United States has abandoned him. He felt that he was laying in a prison in Cuba without much support for from the United States.

PEREIRA: What is your sense about what changed then? Because this all seemed to happen fairly quickly.

ABADI: Yes. Well we have been -- myself, James Barren as well and a few other people, we have been pressing the United States government to sit down and negotiate with Cuba his release. Whatever the price Cuba was asking for, that is for the politicians really to decide, but for us, it was really to pressure the U.S. government to sit down and negotiate. There were so many ways that the United States could really extend a hand to Cuba for the release of Alan Gross. And I sensed in the last few weeks that something might be happening, and so this morning when I heard I was really very thrilled about it.

BERMAN: How is his health now? We know he had threatened not to eat. At one point last may he said he didn't think he'd have another birthday in Cuba.

ABADI: Well, if you remember, when I was there -- I'm a physician also and, at that time, there was a claim he had cancer and he wasn't feeling well and he lost weight. And I examined him as a physician. The Cuban government allowed me to do so. I read and saw all of his medical records. At that time, he was quite healthy. He had lost 100 pounds, but then he lost it not only because he did exercise and was on a diet that he himself imposed.

Now I don't know exactly how he feels except what I hear that his arthritic pain is preventing him from walking well, that he only sees from one eye. I just saw him going down the airplane. He seemed to be walking fine so I'm happy about that.

But I think it was more importantly depressed, more emotionally than physically sick and that is because he could not see any light at the end of the tunnel.

PEREIRA: Rabbi Abadi, we appreciate you coming in and telling us about your experience meeting with Alan Gross, who is home back on American soil with his wife, Judith, and will be heading to his home and we know the president will be speaking a short time from now.

Rabbi Abadi, we appreciate that.

We know the president is going to be speaking here a short time from now.

BERMAN: He'll be speaking just after noon. Raul Castro, the president of Cuba, will be speaking. Alan Gross, we expect, will be speaking.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: This is a day that a lot of people thought they would not see for a long, long time, if ever. A sea change in U.S. relations in Cuba.

We're going to turn it over to Wolf Blitzer who's going to take us to the president's big speech -- Wolf?

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BLITZER: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer, in Washington. We want to welcome our viewers in the United States and around the world.

We're only minutes away from a major announcement from the White House. President Obama about to declare an historic thaw in U.S. relations with Cuba. And it begins with a prisoner swap. You've probably been watching CNN live right now of the American contractor, Alan Gross. He has just arrived outside Washington, D.C., Joint Base Andrews, after five years of captivity in the communist neighbor only 90 miles away from the southern tip of Florida. Alan Gross was escorted on the flight to Andrews by his wife, Judy, two U.S. Senators and a United States congressman. We understand Cuba has also freed an unnamed U.S. intelligence source, who's been held in Cuban prisons for more than 20 years. The U.S. has released the three remaining members of what were called the Cuban Five. They were convicted in 2001 of espionage. The other convicts are back in Cuba already. They've served most of their sentences. All of the Cuban Five are now back in Cuba.

The policy changes, by far, the biggest and most dramatic changes since Washington clamped an embargo on Cuba way back in 1961. They include right now more travel for American passport holders, greater opportunities to visit Cuba, tourism, greater export of American goods and services. Americans will be allowed to bring Cuban goods home in limited quantities. Cuban ex-patriots will be able to send more money back home, all leading to a full restoration of full diplomatic relations. The U.S. announcing there will be full-fledged embassies, an American ambassador in Havana, a Cuban ambassador here in Washington. Not just diplomatic interest sections but embassies and all that means a normalization of diplomatic relations, in other words.

CNN is covering these seismic developments as only CNN can. Our Patrick Oppman is the only reporter there. Elise Labott is standing by live, Alina Machado, Jim Sciutto, Evan Perez, and our White House correspondent, Jim Acosta.

Let's go to Havana first. Patrick is on the scene, the only U.S. television correspondent in Havana.

Tell us, Patrick, what's going on right now, because clearly this is such a dramatic development. And we have learned, for the first time in about 50 years, there was a major phone conversation between President Obama and Raul Castro, the president of Cuba.

PATRICK OPPMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's absolutely unprecedented. The two leaders would not only speak but talk for 45 minutes and hammer out the last details of this exchange of prisoners. We're told this morning that Alan Gross was picked up by U.S. government plane carrying U.S. Congressmen, his wife, Judy, his attorney, Scott Gilbert. Alan Gross was only told yesterday that he was going to be freed. After his attorney told him by phone the news that he was going to be freed, Alan Gross was speechless. He couldn't believe it. He left Havana this afternoon around 8:00 a.m. When he was told they had cleared Cuban airspace, he rose from his seat and was unable to talk he was so emotional. Then he phoned his two daughters. His first words were, "I'm free."

He landed at Andrews Air Force Base a little while ago. He's going on now to try to recover the health that was so badly damaged by five years in Cuban prison. But there's a much bigger story here, which is a loosening of decades-long restrictions. Cubans are still finding out about this basically from U.S. media that's here. They don't have easy access to the internet or regular access to channels like CNN.

And Raul Castro is due to address the nation here any moment now. The Cubans still haven't been told by the official state media that this very important change is taking place. They have to let this change sink in, something most people here never thought was going to happen, which is the U.S. if not lifting the embargo, finally loosening some important restrictions that have kept these two countries divided for so long -- Wolf?

BLITZER: The president of Cuba, Raul Castro, I take it he's about to make a statement on television to the Cuban people. The president of the United States, President Obama, he's about to make a statement. Only moments away from both of those statements. This is pretty extraordinary for Raul Castro to be going out and

announcing to the Cuban people probably almost exactly the same time that President Obama is announcing to the American people and the entire world what's going on. Set the scene for the Raul Castro announcement.

OPPMAN: Well, I don't think anything has happened like this probably since the Cuban Missile crisis where basically you have a U.S. leader and a Cuban leader addressing their people at the same time. Raul Castro does not make regular addresses to the Cuban people or spontaneous addresses. Usually, when he talks about the United States, it's very combative terms. So he'll have to really explain this in a way that will line up with some of the hard-line rhetoric that we're so used to hearing here, of the loosening of restrictions, the U.S. returning these three intelligence agents. They're not people you've ever heard of very often in the United States but they're famous here in Cuba. After Elian Gonzalez, there's been no greater government campaign to return a Cuban citizen from the United States than these jailed Cuban spies. So they will be greeted as victorious heroes who have come back. Of course, many of them faced years more in U.S. prison. That's been Raul Castro's number-one priority. Now he'll have to explain to people who are used to hearing U.S. talked to in terms of an enemy, exactly how this is going to work, what the new relationship will be. And as well, this is a country -- the Cubans blame everything, its terrible economy -- now the Cubans will have to soften that hard line a little bit, as well probably take more ownership of the disastrous state of their economy. As some of these restrictions are lifted, increasingly the Cubans will no longer be able to blame the U.S. for the problems here in Cuba.

BLITZER: A dramatic and historic moment in the U.S./Cuban relationship, the most dramatic moment in improved relations going back 50 years.

Patrick Oppman, the only U.S. television correspondent reporting for us from Havana.

We'll be anxious to hear what the Cuban president, Raul Castro, has to say. Yesterday, the president of the United States and the president of Cuba had what was described as about a 45-minute to a one-hour conversation. That was the first direct presidential communication between the United States and Cuba going back probably 50 years, a major discussion. They choreographed, they worked out all of the details that are about to take place beginning with the president's statement, President Obama's statement only a few moments away.

Elise Labott is joining us, our global affairs correspondent.

You brought the story earlier this morning here on CNN. I think for those of us who have watched U.S./Cuban relations over the years, this is historic. It's a great, great moment if you want to see this improvement in the relationship. It opens up the doors. But there will be severe criticism.

ELISE LABOTT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: That's right. Certainly there are members of Congress, real die-hard anti-Cuba lawmakers who think this is not the time, that certainly while the Castros are in power, that there's no way that the U.S. could open up to Cuba. What the administration is saying here with all these landmark remarks the president will be making is, listen, the embargo isn't working. If we wanted a regime change in Cuba, that's not happening. And they notice there have been some modest reforms in Cuba, such as allowing more freedom of expression, more political dissidents are being freed from jail. The Cubans are releasing 53 prisoners from a list provided from the U.S. There's more economic opportunities for Cubans to own property and things like that. So what the U.S. is saying is this is not a reward for the Cuban government. But if you want to increase those changes, if you want to open up Cuba, that means you need to engage more with the Cuban government and the Cuban people. So to that end, the U.S. will be opening an embassy in Havana and Cuba will be opening up a formal embassy here. This is really the most sweeping overhaul in U.S. policy towards Cuba since the embargo was imposed.

BLITZER: Easing of full diplomatic relations, including embassies and ambassadors between the United States and Cuba, a sea change, as we say.

Quickly, I want to go to Alina Machado. She is in Little Havana in Miami for us.

How are Cuban-Americans there reacting?

ALINA MACHADO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We've seen a mixture of the reactions. The one thing that everybody agrees on is the fact that it's a good thing that Alan Gross was released. There's no debating that. Where things get dicey here, especially among the older generations and the younger generations, is on the opinion of whether it's a good thing to do that prisoner swap and also opening up things between Cuba and the U.S.

You know, I am Cuban-American. I was born and raised in Miami. My parents came to this country at a very young age. People of their generation, people who came to this country in the '50s and the '60s, they seem to be pretty adamant against opening things up because, for them, this is really about a long history that dates back to that time period.