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French Source: Helicopters Hunt for Suspects in Woods; France to U.S.: Suspects Trained with Al Qaeda in Yemen; French Source: Suspect Traveled to Syria

Aired January 8, 2015 - 21:00   ET



ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: And welcome back. Thanks for joining us for this continuing coverage of the mass of manhunt for this currently underway in France where the killers of 12 people here terror attack that has shocked France and frankly much of the world. As I said, this is the largest manhunt France had seen in decades as many as 88,000 security personnel, military reservist, law enforcement personnel had been deployed, not only in Paris but in places far north of here in many cities in towns only to provide security to a number of government insulations, maybe organizations but also and most importantly to try to hunt for the terrorist still at large at this hour.

There's been a lot of focus on two brothers, Said Kouachi and Cherif Kouachi, both brothers who have been known to law enforcement for quite some time who had run in with the law here. The manhunt now seems focused about 45 miles or so northeast of Paris in the number of small towns in the north or a gas station was held up.

The person works to gas stations has -- he believes the two people held him up, stole gas, steal some food and some liquids were these brothers. Police have obviously now been going door to door in the number of communities in this area and also in a forest area. This is a very large forest, thousands of acres, larger than the City of Paris itself.

There is a lot of ground to cover. And as I said, tens of thousands of men and women working right now as we speak in pursue of these two fugitives. The brothers of course are wanted on what is the worse act of terrorism here in decade. They've been known for French and American authorities even before the killings at Charlie Hebdo.

One of the two believed to have trained with Al Qaeda in Yemen. They are on the run and there's late word on the manhunt. We're going to have reports from the area of the manhunt. First though, we're also learning about their suspected ties, the violent extremism and for that, let's go first to Pamela Brown.

So, you're getting some new information right now, what are you learning, Pamela?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Anderson. We're learning from you U.S. officials who received information from French intelligence about some of the alarming items that were found in the brother's car that sources believe may - they may have intended to use to make Molotov cocktails, Anderson.

Some of those items include empty containers and gasoline and we know from multiple sources that there were rudimentary explosives found in the car. So, we're not sure if it was the fact that there were gasoline, canisters and some of these other items that were part of that. Also Anderson, we know that one of he I.D.s of - one of the brothers was left behind and of course there was the question, did they intentionally leave that behind throughout authorities.

But we're told, Anderson that authorities have additional evidence, in addition to that I.D. indicating that the brothers are the key suspects behind the attack that happened at Charlie Hebdo and Paris yesterday also we're learning from sources, Anderson that there's no evidence at this stage indicating the connection between that attack and the other attack that happened in Paris today against the police officer near a Jewish school, Anderson.

COOPER: Do we know how long these brothers had been on the No Fly List in the United States?

BROWN: Well, I'm being told from sources that at least one of the brothers had been on the No Fly List, Anderson for more than five years. We know one of them was arrested back in I believe 2005 for apparently wanting to go jihadists oversees. And then of course, we know in 2011, the other brother apparently traveled to Yemen to train with AQAP.

So, French intelligence years ago shared information about these brothers with the U.S. officials and they were put on that No Fly List at that point we're told. Also, Anderson, we're told that U.S. officials are scrubbing through databases to see if there are any connections between these suspects in Paris and high-level targets here in the U.S., people that the U.S. are concerned about that they're keeping their eye on. And we're told at this point, there is no connectivity but of course, it's an ongoing process and things are so very fluent, Anderson.

COOPER: All right, Pamela Brown, I appreciate the update. I want to go now with Barbara Starr has been working her sources and showings as you pointed that one of the brothers may have trained with Al Qaeda in Yemen, yes?

BARBARA STARR, CNN REPORTER: Indeed Anderson. Two U.S. officials are telling me that French authorities have informed the United States, there is intelligence that the French have that Said Kouachi, the older brother did travel to Yemen in 2011, trained with Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, the very dangerous Al Qaeda affiliate located in Yemen.

He got weapons training there and of course, at that time, the spiritual leader, the operational leader of Al Qaeda in Yemen, Anwar al-Awlaki, the American-born cleric was very active in Yemen. We don't know if the two ever met. Awlaki was killed in September 2011 in a U.S. drone strike. So now, they're trying to put the pieces together. What does it mean that he trained in Yemen? Is it possible that this was a sleeper cell essentially that many element in Al Qaeda sent him back to France and basically, he was dormant for a number of years or did he go back to France and just do about all these and, you know, become further self- radicalized and engage in an attack.

But the concern about Yemen is fundamental. This is the Al Qaeda affiliate that has proved in the passed, it has wanted to attack the United States and it did have some of the Charlie Hebdo magazine officials, magazine journalist especially the editorial director in its crosshairs and suddenly, he was killed in that attack.

COOPER: And Barbara, we talked to one journalist here who actually works in the same building as Charlie Hebdo, our earlier and our last hour who did some investigation on the younger brother back in 2004- 2005 and have talked to the attorney. The younger brother who represented him in the case when he was arrested trying to get into Iraq through Syria back then.

And according to court transcripts originally back then, the younger had been interested in attacking Jewish targets in Paris and had been convinced by a radical cleric known not to do that here to focus on going into Iraq, attacking U.S. targets there. So, a lot of piece of the puzzle still yet to learn. Barbara Starr, thank you.

So, you might imagine no one in the intelligence or counterterrorism community is ready to say, they know all they need to know certainly about these two suspects. Their work is not done, not by any stretch, joining me with more than steps being taken to learn more, trying to track these guys down, Jim Sciutto and Evan Perez.

There's a lot we don't know but I mean, the focus right now on this area of this wood which is really a large territory to cover. We don't know if this is part of the brother's plan. If this is just now they're kind of going minute to minute here trying to just figure out how to - they had law enforcement.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, it's unclear. What is clear is that the police are on hot pursuit. I was up in this are, northeast of Paris earlier today and at first, the attention was focused on a couple of other towns in the same area, again 40, 50 miles to the northeast. They focused on one.

We saw the police presence there. And as we were driving there, we kept running into convoys of police, their sirens blaring as they were clearly flooding the zone, right, to try to trap these guys. We saw a number of checkpoints around the time. Then they move their attention to another town. Then they move their attention to this wood and the reason they did is they were apparently -- the suspects were spotted from a helicopter abandoning the car that they had hijacked and then running into the woods.

Was that a plan? Or was that a place they went because they seemed to be aware that they were being pursued? You know, that's clearly very plausible possibility. COOPER: Right. I mean, if they haven't -- if this wasn't part of a plan they have a preposition supplies. Last thing, not very long out in those woods without supplies in this kind of weather it's not going to be...

SCIUTTO: It's cold. It's wet. You and I were feeling that right now.

COOPER: Right.

SCIUTTO: It would be difficult up in those circumstances there.

We do know though that they were carrying weapons, certainly, and lots of ammunition. We saw in that video that they had extra magazines. So, in terms of staging a fight or keeping up a fight there they have the materials for that.

COOPER: Right. And that is, obviously, some of the law enforcement are very concerned about them trying to remain operational and trying to take out other law enforcement personnel before they are brought down. And, Evan, how concern the U.S. officials specifically about the possible Al-Qaeda and Yemen connection?

PEREZ: Well, honestly, you know what? They're really worried about now is that this is perhaps a sign of an intensified new rivalry and new competition between terror groups. We have the Al-Qaeda group in Yemen, which has tried to launch attacks against the United States, and of course ISIS which is in Syria and which has garnered a lot of headlines and frankly a lot of attention from us, from the United States, from groups, from countries in Europe.

And, you know, for some time now U.S. officials have been worried about that Al-Qaeda and Al-Qaedas affiliating Yemen wanted to carry out some kind of spectacular attack to try to seize the initiative, try to seize again the headlines after all these groups are in competition for recruits, that's what these attacks are often about. They're about drawing more people to their cause. And so, whether this indicates a new wave of this type of competitions is the big concern now. So, that's first and foremost what intelligence officials are worried about.

COOPER: And, Jim, there's a lot of French law enforcement officials have not disclose publicly. Obviously, they're keeping things very close to the vest. They say that nine other people have been arrested in the wake of the attacks here. We don't know what if any connection they may have had or why they have - or actually being detained, I shouldn't say arrested.

Also, the third suspect that -- well, a lot of reporting was done on yesterday, this 18-year-old, we're not clear -- at least I'm not clear, I don't know if you have any update on the status of this person because they currently surrendered themselves. There was a number of people on social media telling French officials, "No, no. This young man was actually in class when these attacks occurred." But I'm not clear if that person's been cleared yet or has been released or still in custody. SCIUTTO: We haven't heard anything about him since he gave himself up yesterday and he had many public comments from colleagues who say he was with us, he was not involved. Of course, he did turn himself in, right? He didn't go running with the suspects, which gives you a possible indication that maybe he was not involved.

COOPER: Retracing the question. If he was not involved, we know there was a third suspect involved but where is that person and where is that manhunt for that person underway?

SCIUTTO: Absolutely. You know, of course, and a reminder as well, you had another deadly attack in Paris today by another gunman. Police here is saying that they don't see a clear connection between that attack, which killed a female police officer here. Remember, and it took place just down the street from a synagogue, a Jewish school here, we don't know that's that tied. But you had another deadly attack against police today. Police say no clear -- tied to the attack that took place just down the street from here, but it was a deadly attack on police by someone heavily armed.

COOPER: Heavily armed. I believe the handgun as well as some sort of riffle...

SCIUTTO: And wearing bulletproof vest.

COOPER: ... and wearing bulletproof vest.

SCIUTTO: So imagine the same circumstances in the U.S. where in two consecutive days you have two deadly attacks in the capital city against police officers. Imagine the level of concern. That gives you an indication as to why you tens of thousands of security officers in this country right now hunting down these suspects.

COOPER: Yeah. Jim Sciutto, I appreciate the update, Evan Perez as well.

A picture of one of the alleged killers actually dates back several years now. Cherif, the younger brother was also an aspiring rapper who was featured in a documentary on how people become radicalized. We'll have details on that next.


COOPER: Well, at the moment, authorities 10,000 of men and women are trying simply to apprehend two brothers in connection with the Charlie Hebdo killings. They're likely not too concerned with their back story except to the extent that it will provide clues to their whereabouts or connections with any still active plots.

However, we've been learning these two did show up a radar on law enforcement before the killings and elsewhere. Cherif Kouachi, for one, appeared in a 2005 investigative documentary about Jihadism. They aired on French television. Here's some of the moment.




COOPER: Cherif Kouachi, a fugitive tonight wanted for the Paris attack and we know, ultimately, back then he was put on file. He did serve time for trying to get to Iraq to fight against U.S. forces there.

Joining us now is Christiane Amanpour in here, in Paris with me and in London Former Muslim Extremist and now Anti-extremist Educator Maajid Nawaz with the Quilliam Foundation.

Maajid, I mean there's so much we know -- Maajib, there's so much we know about how young people like him are radicalized and yet it doesn't seem to have made much of a difference in terms of trying to prevent it.

MAAJID NAWAZ, DIRECTOR, QUILLIAM FOUNDATION: No, Anderson. You're right. It hasn't. And one of the reasons for that, unfortunately, is that though we are very good at sending across drones across the world or indeed taking out leaders of Al-Qaeda. What we aren't very good at for various reasons one of them is because governments aren't particularly comfortable in having this discussion is in stemming the flow and the appeal of this ideology on the grassroots.

I listened to your report earlier where one of your guests claimed that up to 5,000 French-Muslims are being monitored for being potential Jihadist. That's a huge, huge number. And if we look at that, he said roughly 500 have gone from France to Syria. Of course, it's around 500 from Britain as well in that figure across Europe is 3,000. It tells you the scale of the problem.

I think the challenge here is that we're dealing with a brand that appeals to young aspiring rappers like the Kouachi brothers. People that were appeared to be relatively integrated, but actually their -- what appeals to more than the culture that these societies offer them is a perverted Islamist violent brand and what we aren't very good, what we still haven't got to grips with is how to provide alternative messaging, how to promote alternative brands so that these young kids go down a different path. There needs to be a European wide civil society cooperation on that and it's still isn't there, unfortunately.

COOPER: In the United States, Christiane, I think there's a greater integration of immigrant communities than there is in France and elsewhere and throughout Europe.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's absolutely for sure when you look at all the polls, when you look at all the social studies that have gone around the American-Muslim they are much more integrated than they are in this part of the world.

But I think and Maajid and others have said, "This school is beyond just alienated used now." We've been here in this story for a long, long time. And to what Maajid was saying, there has been a lot of political correctness for many, many years now. We have all bent over backwards to be tolerant, to try to understand what's going on, to try to separate the violent extremist, (inaudible) militants who use this kind of violence to get their way from the vast majority of Muslims. But we do, actually as a world, have to figure out how to address what's going on now.

Why is it that radical Islam is the vehicle for a rage against modernity, against whatever political problem they seem to have? Why is it that it is being used and directed through radical Islam?

And I said earlier today that the words "Allahu Hakbar" have become because of these Muslim extremists. The most wicked words in our dictionary today. These are words that terrify people and for a very, very good reason.

COOPER: Imagine, it's interesting too, it's often these young men who, frankly, you know, don't have much religious background, they grew up, you know, I mean, they're maybe from families that that are Muslim but are not necessarily extremist themselves. They, you know, they were smoking pot, they want to be rappers, even this young guy is dating young women and yet within a very short period of time, he is planning on going over to Iraq to attack U.S. forces and now stands accused of being a suspect in this horrific terror attack.

NAWAZ: Yeah. And one of the reasons for that, Anderson, is that and I agree with everything Christiane just said by the way and I'm very happy to hear her say that. This is a thank you.

One of the reasons for that that they're not being religious and then suddenly becoming radicalized is one thing that is consistent throughout Europe and I don't think that many of us have yet come to comprehend this sheer scale of the problem that we are facing in Europe. And it takes shocks like this for have -- for us to have these conversations.

One of them is that so many young European born and raised Muslims, primarily identify as Muslims only or as Muslims primarily and don't identify with their European societies and vice versa. Many continental European countries don't feel any sense of affinity to minority communities and we see that rise of the far-right across Europe. This is severe and acute identity crisis playing out across Europe and I worry because I think that there's a vacuum in the middle and that vacuum, the far-right are trying to fill - Islamist extremist are trying to know (ph), if a small L, classical liberals, people that stand for democratic pluralism and human rights, don't start aggressively asserting those values through a civil society-led or civil society-led initiatives across Europe. That vacuum, unfortunately, will be filled by extremist organizations on all ends of the political spectrum.

We've seen mosques being attacked in France in reprisal now. We've seen a Kebab (ph) shop being attacked and I worry for the future of Europe. It takes people to be brave to stand forward, to not count and compromise or bow down to the demands of extremist on both ends to the spectrum. And instead I think we need to stop redefining what it means to be European and to solve this identity crisis once and for all.

Until we do, you're going to see more non-religious or ill-religious young men choosing an identity for themselves.


AMANPOUR: I mean, Maajid is right and of course it is up to the Islamic leaders to really get out there and with no holds barred and with no if, ands or buts. Get a grip on this issue...

COOPER: And it will be interesting to see what happens later today here in France.

AMANPOUR: Absolutely. But as he said, one of the things that we're living right now is a very ugly and uncivilly rise yet again of Islamiphobia and this is very worrying.

All these governments now are going to be watching to see how the far- right, which made huge gains in the last local elections in Europe, a few months ago, from national frontier, you keep in England, you know, the groups in Belgium and in Germany and elsewhere...


AMANPOUR: ... which are mobilizing big anti-Islamic demonstrations, how this is going to play into this very ugly political situation.

COOPER: Christiane, I appreciate it. Maajid Nawaz, thank you, great to have you on again.

Just ahead, the fear here and back home in the United States of self- radicalized Jihadists committing so-called lone wolf attacks or self starters that there have been several such attacks here before this. We'll have more on that, next.


COOPER: Well, again, tonight, two brothers remain at large. One, in the connection with killings here Wednesday, the gunman shouting "Allahu Hakbar", "We have avenged the Prophet Mohammad" and claiming, according to some reports, to be from Al-Qaeda in Yemen are representing them.

Authorities have not however definitively linked them to any formal terrorist network, at least not yet. As I mentioned earlier, the massacre just down the block there, Charlie Hebdo, is the worst act of terror France has seen in decades. However, it also comes on the heels of a string of smaller attacks by so-called self-starters.

With that, here is Gary Tuchman.


GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Even before this mess murder in Paris, the nation of press was on alert because of threats from Islamic militants including this ISIS video released a week before Christmas.

(FOREIGN LANGUAGE) The masked militant begins by saying, "I would like to talk to my brothers and sisters in France."


And later continues by saying, "Make France explode, disintegrate France into pieces. Shoot these guilty people in the head. Shortly, after the release of the video, five days before Christmas, a man cried out, "God is great" in Arabic and began stabbing police officer with a knife in the city of Tour.

He wounded several officers before he was shot dead. His name Bertrand Nzohabonayo, a French Burundi extremist with an ISIS flag in his Facebook page.

One day later, a driver in the French city of Dijon also shouting "God is great" drove his vehicle into a crowd of pedestrians. There'd 12 people are injured and he's arrested.

And then, the very next day, another driver, another vehicle to a crowd of people, this time in a Christmas market in the city of Nantes. One person died in that attack. Police arrested that driver, too. Authorities believe in he and the other driving attack suspect maybe mentally ill.

And in Paris, on the same day as the second driving attack shots are fired at the Synagogue. Nobody is hurt in the shooting. It's so called lone-wolf incidence prompt the French newspaper to come out with this headline which translates to fear over Christmas. And also prompt the French Prime Minister to had 100 of additional soldiers to patrol the streets.

MANUEL VALLS, FRENCH PRIME MINISTER: When 1,200 French individuals over residents have links to Jihad, when nearly 380 are present in Syria and are active in terrorist groups and learning terrorism and horror. Then, of course, let me emphasize, there is a threat of proportions never seen before.

TUCHMAN: Day after the car attack ignite (ph), shoppers returned to the marketplace there wearing white arm bands in solidarity with the victims.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are not scared. We must come back. We have no choice.

TUCHMAN: A sentiment shared in Paris now as massive crowds turn out in support of those killed the Charlie Hebdo. Gary Tuchman, CNN, Atlanta.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Joining me now is Jean-Charles Brisard, an expert on terrorism and author of Zarqawi, the New Face of Al-Qaeda, also seen in national security commentator, Mike Rogers, former chairman of the House Intelligence Committee.

Jean-Charles, you weren't ever talking during the break, the sheer of volume of potential suspects here, people who have either travel to Syria or to Yemen or who haven't even left this country. It's frankly overwhelming French Intelligence and even the judicial system.

JEAN-CHARLES BRISARD, TERRORISM EXPERT: Yes, everyone. Listen. We have today 1200 individuals involved in those networks since 2012. Meaning, those who have traveled to Syria and Iraq, those who returns, those who are involved in recruiting networks here in France or support networks.

In addition to that, we have 3,000 people potentially does -- the latest estimate of the Intelligence services for two, three months ago of the people radicalized that might get involved in violence activities. So, the people...

COOPER: And tracking all them, I mean, you can't have manpower tracking them around the clock.

BRISARD: It's impossible. To track someone, you need two things. First, we need good reason. We need evidence. We need information, specific information, saying to you that these individuals might be involved in violent activities. Second, we need resources. Just -- a civilians are one individual, 24 hours a day and, you need 25 agency.

COOPER: 25 agencies...


COOPER: ... to track one person in 24 hours a day.

BRISARD: Yes, because we need to track him physically. You need to track his phones, sometimes people have several phones. So, I have to adjudicate resources for each device uses...

COOPER: Right.

BRISARD: ... laptops, whatever. And so, we -- they are overwhelmed. There's not enough resources inside the Intelligence to follow everyone so we have to make -- choices, strategic choices with regards to, well...

COOPER: Whether...

BRISARD: ... with good value who you'd call...


CHARLES: ... to access the (inaudible) the CEO, or individuals.

COOPER: Chairman Rogers, you know, we've obviously seen a number of attacks in the United States, Nidal Hasan, he was called lone-wolf for a self starter who did reach out to unroll (ph) lucky online.

How concerned are you about this kind of attack some -- a small group of people whether they have a direct affiliation with the group overseas or whether they are just self starters who, you know, watch some videos online and decide to try to get some more evidence. How concern or about are you about this kind of attack in the United States? MIKE ROGERS, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY COMMENTATOR: Very concerned, Anderson. So, if you look back even with ISIS tactics just very shortly ago with -- they switch gears. And in Australia, they had a group of self radicalized Australians who decided they wanted to go to Syria for the Jihad.

They were told by ISIS recruiters that no we want you to stay in Australia. We want you to randomly kidnap people of the street, cut their head off, videotape it, and send it to us. We'll use that for propaganda purposed. You'll do more for the cost in doing that.

Then, you saw this start of this new kind of communication from ISIS and other organizations in continuing to encourage these lone-wolf attacks. And what we're finding is, obviously, people are taking advantage of it and there are so many ways to radicalize these troops.

They don't have to have a face to face meeting. They can do it through the internet. They can do it through local recruiters, local folks who are engaged in the activity of radicalization.

COOPER: And, Chairman Rogers, I mean, the French Intelligence for years has been very capable at info trading, you know, these groups in info trading communities -- immigrating communities in Paris and elsewhere to gather intelligence if France, though, is enable to keep up with all the people they have. What is that say about other Western European countries and even in the United States?

ROGERS: It's nearly impossible and the longer that Syria can -- is a recruiting tool and it is a recruiting tool. And remember, even though they talked about someone to Syria which would have been in -- could have been in ISIS , could al-Nusra, could have been al-Sham, all of those groups have the capabilities and desires to do these types of attacks.

And they also talk about the Yemen connection. Even though there are different organizations, their goals and aims are the same and so, you don't have to be a member of any of those organizations to be radicalized to the point where you want to be a part of this movement. You want to commit an active Jihad and slaughter innocent's civilians. That's what so concerning.

And if you think of this, Anderson, the federal government would watch about 21 al-Qaeda affiliates. That doesn't count ISIS and other organizations but al-Qaeda affiliates about half of those have pledged support to ISIS and their activities. Meaning that their communication tools, finance tools, logistic tools would be made available to them. That's very, very concerning.

It is metastasizing in a way that says we had better get a handle on this big recruiting tool which is now Syria and Iraq and in it the perceives success that they're having pushing back at Western engagement there.

COOPER: There is concern I know here in France that if there is an over reaction and, you know, everything just, you know, the tighter security, there's an over reaction, the immigrant groups failed even less sense of belonging that that is in the sense what some terrorist want. They want to create this division.

BRISARD: Now, community -- to put them on, communities against others and precisely, we've shown in the last 24 hours that's we were resolved to, you know, with determination to keep our values as they are and not to give anything to the terrorist.

COOPER: Jean-Charles, I appreciate you're being with us. Thank you very much for staying up late. And Chairman Mike Rogers, thank you so much for being with us.

Just ahead, Parisian journalist who lost friends and colleagues in the attack has spoke with several including a columnist for the magazine for Charlie Hebdo who was also an E.R. doctor.

He arrived on the scene five minutes after the attack trying to help save his colleague, my conversation with him ahead.


COOPER: Welcome back. It's a little past 3:40 a.m. right here in Paris. Manhunt still underway about 45 minutes north of where I am right now.

I want to show you I'm just about two blocks or so from this Charlie Hebdo headquarters, where the terror attack took place. Excuse me, I should have said 45 or 50 of miles right northeast of where I am. About, just a couple of blocks from where the attack took place. This is the closest civilians are allowed to get. This area is still blocked off, and that's why there's a sort of makeshift memorial has sprung right in this area as you see. Candles, flowers, pens and pencils, signs and cartoons, people have been coming all day long since this attack took place.

This memorial has just been growing and growing. It is now spreading out to several areas in here. And there's another memorial about a block or two away from here as well. People wanted to show their solidarity, wanted to show their defiance in the face of terror.

For journalist here in Paris, this is a story obviously a professional and personal tragedy. Patrick Pelloux is not only a columnist for Charlie Hebdo, but also an E.R. doctor. He went to the same moments after the attack, he got there, he says about five minutes after the attack, trying to save those he could. He's obviously mourning the loss of friends and colleagues. He's also vowing to not let the terrorist stop his work. The magazine is going to publish an edition next Wednesday next week, and they're going to print out the million copies of it. I spoke with Patrick earlier today at the hospital, where some of his colleagues are still being treated.


COOPER: "They weren't be murdered twice if we remain silent." That's what he said. Such powerful words.

Luc Hermann works right across the hall from Charlie Hebdo head -- offices. He's the executive director of the television production, a news agency. He arrived at the building 30 minutes after the shooting. I spoke with him just a short time ago.

We talked in one of your employees, Martin, who took the now world famous video on the roof just a few blocks from where we're standing. Explain when your employees realize something was something going wrong.

LUC HERMANN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, PREMIERES LIGNES: They heard heavy fire, heavy gun--automatic rifle, and they immediately understood that the target was Charlie Hebdo on -- right on the same floor that they were next door on our floor.

COOPER: So just a feet away.

HERMANN: Just a couple, right. It's right there. That was behind the door for our team. Luckily, no one was injured. They concealed the door. They went on the roof, and they went under -- they started feeling some of the pictures. And two of our reporters were the first to get in. After the gunmen had left the area, two of our reporters were the first to get in the newsroom of Charlie Hebdo. You've seen a traumatic still aren't sure that was from the beginning of your program.

COOPER: They were actually asked to come in and help.

HERMANN: They went themselves -- what's happening in there, and they got. There were still a lot of smoke, and described to me they're still under shock. They described to me horrific scene of people that with shots in their head, a lot of blood, and there's few wounded people, but they started helping at the time when the police and emergency and services arrived.

COOPER: It's just remarkable that they were so close. They had move into the office relatively, recently, I think like six months ago.

HERMANN: Exactly. Right before the summer in June, and to be quite honest with you we were quite sad to have Charlie Hebdo. Well, that's an interesting building with interesting journalism, interesting -- and we would joke about the fact that there could be a fear. We talked with them. The reason why...

COOPER: You weren't afraid about it.

HERMANN: We joked about it because they would joke about it. It was -- this was their way to cope and to react with the thing and with the fear and with the threat. There was some police car from time to time in front of the building, not the recent weeks, and we had...

COOPER: So the recent weeks you haven't seen a permanent police presence?

HERMANN: No, no, no. During the summer, yes, there was a car everyday in front of the door, but not after the -- not after September.

COOPER: Oh, you did incredible. I don't know if it's coincidence, just an incredible part of this, you actually investigated one of the suspects -- one of the suspected terrorist now, one of his brothers, years ago.

HERMANN: Yes. In 2005, I made a documentary of a long investigation on the cell, a very small cell of young French men, French nationals in their early 20s, and Cherif, the younger brother, was part of the cell, and when I investigated the cell they were -- young guys who would -- very little religious background, who decided to go to Iraq via Syria.

COOPER: This was 2005 or '06?

HERMANN: 2004 and 2005. Some of them died or were arrested in Iraq by American forces. And Cherif, at the time of my investigation, he was in jail because he had been arrested by the French authorities at the French airport, I think he was on his way to Syria.

COOPER: He was going to try to flight at Syria in order to get into -- then get into Iraq.

HERMANN: Exactly, who was sentenced for three years in prison. And at the time when I met his lawyer, he said that he was about 22, 23. He said, "I'm happy that they stopped me," but the police invited, the fact that I could go to Syria and eventually at Iraq, and he did three year in jail and he was...

COOPER: And so his lawyer back then was claiming that Cherif, the suspect in this killing, was actually happy that he have been stopped my police, because he was what, having doubts about going to flight in Iraq.

HERMANN: I doubt it was fear, is what he told me, and then it was under the influence of the so-called "preacher" that was feeding him these bad ideas. So the lawyer, it was of course part of the defense process also, was trying to minimize totally his involvement.

COOPER: The New York Times, I believe reported based on what they said are core documents that they saw that Cherif had originally wanted to target Jewish targets in Paris, but this "preacher," this radical cleric had convinced him that this is not the place where Jihad -- the place where Jihad back in 2004 and 2005 was Iraq.

HERMANN: That's exactly right. The preacher's name is Farid Benyettou. He was arrested, and he never left France, and then was sentenced to jail, told him, "Yes, no targets in France," specific, no targets in France, you have to go to Iraq.

COOPER: Well, if in fact he is one of the perpetrators, and it's clearly he has gone back to that original idea of targeting places in France.

HERMANN: Terrible day, but on this terrible pressure...


HERMANN: ... on the freedom of speech here in the heart of Paris.

COOPER: Yeah. HERMANN: It's a broad daylight yesterday morning.

COOPER: Extraordinary. Luc, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Luc Hermann, thank you.

Looking around, just ahead. New details starting to emerge about what exactly happened at Charlie Hebdo office building, including the story of the cartoonist who was late for the meeting, came face to face with the attackers, and remarkably survived. Her story and more, next.


COOPER: As the search goes on for the suspect in a deadly attack at the Magazine office. More story are emerging as the hours go by. Stories on people who died and the people who survive, all are steep in tragedy, they begin to paint a picture exactly what happened in that building.

The moments that are difficulty in hearing about even contemplate but important to learn.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The French newspaper La Monde called it a black day. And surely it was that. With some new details are just now beginning to emerge in that brutal terror attack. This photo taking inside the offices of Charlie Hebdo after the attack shows the carnage inside.

A cartoonist named Corinne Rey that goes by the pin name Coco arrived a bit late for the morning editorial meeting. She told the French magazine, she just pick up her daughter from daycare. Two men dress in black and armed with assault rifles arrived behind her as she was entering the victim.

They demanded, she finish punching in the security code to open the front door of Charlie Hebdo's office. She was push inside. She told the magazine as the gunmen crossed the lobby and kill the security guard. They spoke perfect French. She said and shouted "They were Al Qaeda." She survive.

On Charlie Hebdo's second floor, another woman, a freelance journalist named Sigolene Vinson. She told the New York Times, she spoke with one of the killers. "Don't be afraid, calm down, I won't kill." She quoted the gunmen is saying. You're a woman, but think about what you're doing, it's not right.

She said the one attacker turns to the other and said "We don't shoot women." But at least one women is known who have been killed in the attack. Murdered as well, Stephane Charbonnier, the editor and cartoonist who is shot where he was found in the hub of the second floor newsroom.

The deputy Major Paris arrive 45 minutes later.


PATRICK KLUGMAN, DEPUTY MAYOR: And we saw the wounded and the vacated (ph). At the first moment we didn't have the names. Then the -- Patrick Pelloux (ph), a doctor who is also a member of the team, ran out and crying, in the arms of the president, saying they killed Chab (ph), the editor.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After the massacre, the gunmen spent a way in a waiting car. In the northern suburbs of Paris, they did to that vehicle and stole another, the owner had left his dog in the car. He reportedly tell police that he ask the gunmen if the dog could be release, but the owner and dog survive.


COOPER: Oh, just ahead that manhunt still going on across France and around the world also sorrow and it shows support for the victims of the massacre.


COOPER: That's been a heart ranging day in France, a national day at morning here at (inaudible) people feel the streets, and public square observing the minute of silence, remembering the 12 victims of Wednesday's massacre.

Here at Paris, the bells told the Notre Dame, tonight, the Eiffel Tower went dark at 8:00 p.m. local time. In the hour since the terror attacker Charlie Hebdo, there had been tears and outrage, tributes and defiance, shows a solidarity, not only here in France but around the world.


BERNARD CAZENEUVE, MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: (inaudible) fear, to in fact, the value of democracy and make the French fight one another. And we need to combat them with our calm and attachment to the values of the republic showing that we are not afraid and that we will remain united.



DAVID CAMERON, PRIME MINISTER OF THE UNITED KINGDOM: What is happened in Paris, it's in falling terrorist outrage. And I know that everyone in Britain will want to stand with the French Government with the French people at this time.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much cruelty is man capable, we pray in this mass for the victims of this cruelty, so many of them, and we pray also for the perpetuators of such cruelty that the Lord might change their heart.




KLUGMAN: Lost of time of money and of action of gallery and it's the time where we all need to feel together and, you know, the faith and we had kind of family since 9/11, and now infidelity, the family played (inaudible) because with terrible moments we're facing.



DAVID POPE, CARTOONIST: I think people they're expressing their solidarity through sharing cartoons by, cartoons around the world, they're showing the solidarity for their account changes and their families and friends with them back in France.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Life will always overpowered darkness and the human race cannot be stop by hatred.