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CNN TONIGHT
Manhunt for Paris Attackers Continues; Islamophobia Rising in Europe; Reaction from Fellow Journalists to Attack
Aired January 8, 2015 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Great reporting, Anderson. Thank you. We'll get back. Stand by.
Our breaking news tonight, the manhunt is on. Eighty thousand police and army personnel mobilize across France. Helicopters with night vision tools searching for two armed and dangerous suspects in the deadly attack in the office of "Charlie Hebdo." The hunt focused on the Picardy region in northern France. That's after police helicopter caught sight of what investigators believed to be the suspects on foot in the woods near Crepy-en-Valois.
A gas station attendant reports the armed brothers stole gas and food from a station just a few miles away.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.
LEMON: Want to bring back in Anderson Cooper now. Also Christiane Amanpour and Jim Sciutto will join us as well.
Jim, we're going to start with you. You were on the scene of the manhunt earlier. What can you tell us?
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, you've got a very clear sense of the police here in France in hot pursuit. As we were driving, this is about 50 miles to the northeast of Paris. On virtually every road we drove down, we saw a convoy of police rushing in the direction of what at that time they believed to be the location of the suspects.
We went to one town and then they turned their attention to another town. And then later they turned their attention to where it is focused now, which is a broad area, tens of thousands of acres, in fact, of a forest in that same area, where a helicopter spotted what were believed to be the attackers, leaving a car they had hijacked and running into those woods. And it's those woods that are now the focus of the search.
But it's an immense area. There are apparently caves there. Lots of places to hide. And that's a reason why you have tens of thousands of military police being -- being mobilized now to search and, frankly, the area of search being expanded right up to the border with Belgium. All these areas on high alert tonight -- Don.
LEMON: And what was the mistake, Jim, that these brothers made that helped officials identify them? SCIUTTO: Well, one of them left his I.D. card in the first car that
they used when they attacked the offices of "Charlie Hebdo" just behind us here. Tonight left his I.D. card in that car when they abandoned it which his one clue. But not the only clue we're told by both U.S. and French authorities. That they have other indicators that these two brothers are the gunmen behind this attack.
LEMON: So we're hearing that the brothers were known from -- by the authorities. And Anderson has been reporting that all evening. Why weren't they under surveillance?
SCIUTTO: Well, they had been under surveillance for a number of years. But I spoke to the former head of the French counterterrorism police, who was in fact in charge at a time when they were under surveillance. And he said, listen there are too many of them, suspected jihadists, and too few of us, the authorities. 5,000 people on a list of suspected jihadists in France. You do the math. He told me it takes three to 10 agents to keep a single suspect under surveillance.
That would require tens of thousands of police to keep track of all of those people. So you have to make judgment calls. For a while their judgment was keep them under surveillance. Then there was a period of time when they went to ground and they were no longer believed to be a priority. And they were no longer under surveillance. They make a lot of good calls. They say that they prevented a number of attacks just in recent weeks in France.
Here they appear to have made a very bad call.
LEMON: Anderson, can you talk about the scene there? There are flowers behind you. What is going on?
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR, AC360: Yes, this is -- we are just about two, three blocks really from where the attack took place, which is down there over our shoulder. And this is as close as where civilians are allowed to get. This is obviously -- this whole area still have been cordoned off. So this is where a lot of people have come. And we have seen thousands of people coming throughout the day today, and since this attack took place, just wanted to come and pay their respects.
And we have seen these makeshift memorials which have sprung up now behind us. There is also one several blocks from where we are. People have brought candles, people have brought cartoons. They brought photographs of those who were killed. They left pens and pencils. The sign of the strength, the power of the pen against the power of the gun.
And there's really been this incredible outpouring that we have seen all throughout France and all throughout western Europe. And even in the United States. And we certainly see it here today where people have come. And there's this silence. People don't really -- there is just kind of this sense of respect. The sense of wanting to bear witness and just to be here -- Don. LEMON: And talk to us about, Christiane or Anderson, about these
disturbing images released today of the inside of "Charlie Hebdo" offices. And I know that, you know, you went to the hospital, Anderson, where some of the victims are being treated, so talk to me about that and how are the victims doing?
COOPER: Yes, I did go to the hospital today. I talked to one man, who's actually in the emergency room, a doctor, who's also a columnist for "Charlie Hebdo," who arrived on the scene some five minutes after the attack. He is still completely just shattered by what he saw. He says in his 25 years in the emergency room he has never seen anything like it. That it was a scene of war. And it is a battle -- a battle zone.
He fried to do what he could to help those who were just wounded, to help those who were in shock. But as you know, 12 people did lose their lives. And one of the things I think that was most poignant that he said to me about the reason that they are going to continue to publish, and next Wednesday they're going to come out with an edition, a million copies of the -- of the paper are going to be sold.
The reason he said that that is so important, he said that if they are silent, if they remain silent, then it's like his colleagues are murdered twice. So that is something that he is not willing to stand for.
LEMON: Christiane, you interviewed the French foreign minister today and asked him if "Charlie Hebdo" went too far with their cartoons. What did he tell you?
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, to echo what Anderson said, even the foreign minister said that "Charlie Hebdo" must survive. And it will survive at least for several more weeks. And this is a stand they are making and a line in the sand that they will not bow down in the face of this kind of terror. And he said, yes, you know, many people, certainly people in the Muslim world, some of them found it offensive.
But this is what we're all about. We are about the freedom of expression, the freedom of speech, and the freedom to mock and to criticize. And remember it wasn't just Islamic extremism and absurdity that was criticized by "Charlie Hebdo," it's been politicians, it's been the Catholic Church. It's been everyone that you could possibly imagine. Celebrities, and even some of those celebrities who've been the targets today were holding up signs "I am Charlie."
So this is something that's very clear. And he also said to me, look, two things. One, democracy can't exist without freedom. And freedom cannot exist without freedom of the press. So he was very clear about that point. And also about another point which is that this shows that there needs to be a much greater and closer cooperation around the world in this fight against terror.
And as Anderson and Jim have been saying, you know, people here have come out. They refused to be cowered, they refused to be silenced. There is a huge march planned for Sunday. And imams have been told to please get in your mosque today, Friday, here Paris time, at Friday prayers and condemn this at the strongest levels possible.
But people are saying this is a war. It's a turning point in this kind of fight against modernity, against the West, whatever it might be.
LEMON: Christiane, Anderson, Jim, great reporting, thank you very much. We'll be watching as you continue to report this.
Lots more on our breaking news tonight.
Police in northern France believe they are closing in on two armed and dangerous suspects in the deadly attack on "Charlie Hebdo." But this is not just about cartoons that some people find offensive. It's about something much bigger and more dangerous.
What are root causes here? And what are we doing to keep it from happening again?
We're going to get answers when we come right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Our breaking news tonight, the manhunt in France for two brothers wanted in the deadly shooting at "Charlie Hebdo" magazine. Helicopters equipped with night vision instruments are searching a wooded area north of Paris where the suspects may have been spotted. And thousands of police have fanned out on the ground determined to apprehend the two men.
But what's really behind this bloody assault and others like it around the world?
CNN international correspondent Nic Robertson has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Paris, ground zero for the latest Islamist terror attack.
On the surface it appears this is retribution for pictures of Islam's Prophet Mohammed. But is it part of something larger? The latest battle by Islamic extremists dedicated to the destruction of western values.
It's the biggest radical Islamist attack in Europe in 10 years. But one of many in recent weeks across the globe.
(On camera): This is when things get really bad.
(Voice-over): Less than a month ago, I was stepping through the carnage of another radical Islamist attack. Thousands of miles away. This time, Pakistan, 132 mostly Muslim school children gunned down. Cold-blooded murder. Because their Taliban Islamist killers said the children's parents were in the army. In the days before that, Australia. Half a world away. A radical
Islamist takes early morning customers and employees hostage in a chocolate shop. Two people were killed plus the gunman. That gunman claiming Australia kills Muslims in Syria and Iraq.
Each attack a different radical rational given. A world war all in the name of Islam.
Mogadishu, Somalia, Christmas Day, an al Qaeda affiliate targeting the U.N. Turkey this week, a female suicide bomber attacks a police station in the main tourist district of Istanbul.
And a steady background drum beat during the same month. The new normal. The death toll at the hands of radicals climbs. Executions in Syria, car bombs in Iraq.
And in Afghanistan this week, a car bomb targeting European police. Failing. Killing yet more innocent civilians. In fact, most of those dying are Muslims. Collateral damage. This in a world war where you don't see the enemy coming, no lines of tanks on the streets of Paris. Just the latest explosion of terror and the havoc it leaves behind.
Nic Robertson, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: I want to bring in now Fareed Zakaria. He's the host of CNN's "FAREED ZAKARIA, GPS," and Mike Rogers, CNN national security commentator and former congressman.
When it said mostly Muslims were killed, you were shaking your head. Why is that?
MIKE ROGERS, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY COMMENTATOR: If you look at the statistics it's overwhelming that Islamic terrorism will kill more than any other religion or ethnic group.
LEMON: Seeing it like all capsulized like that, I mean, it -- it's horrific. It sums up the horror of what's happening around the world. All over the world. And we're seeing it now in Paris.
FAREED ZAKARIA, HOST, FAREED ZAKARIA GPS: It was a very good report. And I think it makes you realize that there is some broader phenomenon here which is -- there are -- there is within the world of Islam many, many pockets, many groups, that really have a great deal of difficulty with the modern world. And particularly with the open, Western, freedom of speech loving, freedom of expression loving world.
I think it's a mistake to think of it as all of Islamic and the west, as Mike just said, this is mostly a battle within Islam. They're mostly killing Muslim moderates because, you know, they are the ones they're fighting for control of these countries. But the grievance, the grievance is that they feel they live in a world not of their making.
LEMON: Yes. ZAKARIA: That is the world of the West is making.
LEMON: Can we talk more about that? And I think it's important, you said it's a battle within Islam as well. More importantly it's a battle within Islam as well.
ZAKARIA: Think about what's happened in Pakistan where they're killing school children. Why -- those are all Pakistani Muslim school children.
LEMON: Hold that thought. We're going to talk more about that.
Gentlemen, stay with me. A lot more to talk about including fears of what could be a deadly competition between ISIS and al Qaeda. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Our breaking news, helicopters armed with night vision tools searching a wooded area north of Paris for two armed and dangerous suspects in the massacre at "Charlie Hebdo" magazine.
Back with me now is Fareed Zakaria and Mike Rogers.
So, Fareed, we're learning that there's fear among U.S. counterterrorism officials that the rise in ISIS puts pressure on their rival, al Qaeda, to go big. Our justice correspondent Evan Perez has been reporting that.
Does this prove that this really -- is bigger than a cartoon or a magazine?
ZAKARIA: We don't know the extent to which any of those organizations are involved in it. But, you know, apparently al Qaeda has some connection to one of them. But there is no question that these organizations are in competition with one another. They are trying to attract recruits. They're trying to get funding from sources like rich Saudi donors. And the more they can achieve, some kind of spectacular victory, gruesome and barbaric as it sound, the more likely they are to get the attention of the world.
That was one of the reasons ISIS released those incredibly barbaric videos. It was a way of getting into the spotlight, stealing attention from al Qaeda. That very weak, Zawahiri, the head of al Qaeda, had produced one of those grainy al Qaeda videos with a long monologue which looks very much like, you know, a sort of Internet 1.0 compared with ISIS. So, yes, absolutely. These guys are in competition with one another.
LEMON: So do we look at this, Congressman, as an individual act, or is this a larger plan to destabilize the Western world, Western values?
ROGERS: Look, it clearly is that. And what you find is the metastization of different factions with -- even in al Qaeda. So if you look at Syria, there's factions there. There's an al Qaeda faction, al-Nusra, al-Sham, all have al Qaeda allegiances. Then you have this ISIS group that used to be an al Qaeda named affiliate. And it's interesting that the fight between the two wasn't necessarily about who was going to be in charge at the time.
But when you look at what Baghdadi wanted to do, he wanted to attack outside of his region, outside of Syria, into Iraq, into Jordan, into other places. Zawahiri said no, we don't want you to do that. We want you to focus. So this was never about brutality or power. It was about -- Baghdadi didn't just have a fundamental disagreement. He said, listen, I have access to all these people with Western passports. We can do more. We should do more.
That was the split. So we remembered, their ideals are all the same. They have the same goals, the same tactic. And what we're talking about here is Zawahiri is getting a little concerned as he competes for finances, he competes for recruits, he competes for operational status. Meaning can we get people logistically in and out of places.
We -- the government monitors about 21 al Qaeda affiliates. Half of those have pledged support to ISIS in some way. Either overtly or covertly. Meaning they've had --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Competition between the two.
ROGERS: Yes.
ZAKARIA: The thing that worries me most is what if this does not have the hallmarks of an ISIS directed operation or an al Qaeda directed operation. What if what we are now beginning to see are lone wolf operators or wolf packs, if you will, small groups, radicalizing on the Internet. Maybe occasional pure there, but the main point is they're locals. They know the local landscape. They know the local culture.
But they have trained themselves well enough to pull off something quite impressive, though barbaric. You know, the use of gloves. The use of masks.
LEMON: Right.
ZAKARIA: The ability to have no fingerprints. Things like that. That's worrying. Because how do you protect against that? You can monitor those 21 al Qaeda affiliates. How do you monitor five million French Muslims?
LEMON: That's a very good question because I want to ask, are we getting to the point, Congressman, where there are so many people are becoming radicalized. So many terrorists that there aren't the resources to track them and to watch them.
ROGERS: We've surpassed the fact. We have enough resources with Europe and the United States to watch them all. And one of the things, and many of us, me included, have said this for over a year and a half, you need to deal with the problem in Iraq and Syria. It is a recruiting tool not even if you show up. But you see it as someone who identifies with that ideology, who believes it's OK to rape and pillage your way across the country in order to gain your philosophical dominance in the region.
And they see it. And they look at this as a successful event. They're beating the West. You know, even after the United States, we have a -- they just haven't gained it.
LEMON: When you say beating the West, because Barbara Starr, our Pentagon correspondent, is reporting that one of the suspects trained with al Qaeda in Yemen, had direct contact with them, were there opportunities -- what opportunities were missed intelligence wise?
ROGERS: Well, it's hard to say. One of the things we're just even learning now is finding pipelines, human trafficking pipelines with transporting fighters across northern Africa into Iraq during the Iraq war. And we're just discovering those now because of activities that are happening in Libya.
Things that we would have missed even at the intensity level that we were doing to protect our soldiers back then. So not every intelligence operation is perfect. It's not a crystal ball. It is based on access and where we can apply resources to get the information necessary we need. So even the notion that we know everybody that's fighting in Syria that might come back to the United States, Canada, Australia, anywhere else in Europe, I think is wrong.
I don't -- I think we have a good handle on it. I don't think we know all of them. And there are certain ways that they can get in and out that we don't have quite a handle on.
LEMON: You're doing a lot of writing today. One in your column, but number two, I want to talk about this. You tweeted this out earlier. You said, "Can we please see the leaders of Egypt, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia to condemn the acts of terror on TV?"
We've seen statements from countries like Saudi Arabia, from Pakistan, from Afghanistan, condemning the attacks. Are -- do you think these leaders, they need to go on television? How strongly do you want to see them come out and condemn this?
ZAKARIA: I think there needs to be a very different approach. Right now frankly after a lot of people, you know, in the West, you know, like me have been saying this for many, many years. You are seeing statements and to their credit, Islamic centers like Al-Azhar of Cairo which is very important.
But how many -- there are about 60 odd Muslim majority countries. How many cases can you think of, Don, where you have seen the leader of that country publicly, on television, and eloquently denounce this? We'd be running those clips.
LEMON: Right.
ZAKARIA: There aren't a lot of them. There are a lot of statements by foreign ministries and things like that. This is a -- LEMON: Why not, though? Why not?
ZAKARIA: Because they -- I think they don't want to come across as supporting a -- you know, a magazine that was in their view blaspheming the Prophet or Islam. And that gets into this whole larger issue of blaspheme. But what they have to realize is this is a battle for the hearts and minds of Muslims. They aren't willing to step up there and do it in the way that it needs to be done which is not a mealy mouth statement issued quietly in the dead of night.
But a -- no, why not have an important Saudi prince stand up there? The crown prince of Saudi Arabia. And explain in eloquent Arabic why this is on Islam. That would run 24/7 around the world but you're not seeing it.
ROGERS: Although the Egyptian president made a pretty powerful speech recently.
ZAKARIA: He did. Yes. Yes.
ROGERS: About having to reform Islam. And realign, I think, is the word he used, Islam. That was a pretty -- I thought it was a very, very important speech.
ZAKARIA: It was a very good speech. It was not in relation to this. It was I think --
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: No. It was completely separate.
ZAKARIA: Yes. Yes.
ROGERS: But it didn't get a lot of play. It didn't get a lot of attention. And I thought that was a very important step for what many would believe is the heart of the Arab world and Egypt. And for that leader to step up and take that stand. Why is because he is fighting Islamic radicalism in his own country. And he's -- he seems like he's turning the tide. But he's having some victories and some losses. And for him to come up in the middle of that fight and give that speech maybe we can continue to try to export that to Pakistan, to Saudi Arabia, to other countries.
LEMON: I could sit here with you guys all evening and listen to this. We have to move on and get other people in. Thank you, Fareed. Thank you, Congressman.
ROGERS: Thanks, Don.
LEMON: Really appreciate it.
Up next, what is really behind the deadly attack on the magazine staff in Paris? My next guest says it has a lot to do with anger felt by many Muslims in Europe.
Reza Aslan is here. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Breaking news now at this hour. An intense manhunt under way in France for two suspects in the murderous attack at a Paris magazine. Despite recent deadly strikes by radical Islamist around the world, is the attack in Paris different because it happened in Europe? My next guest says Europeans have a problem with outsiders especially Muslims. Reza Aslan is a religious scholar who is the author of "Zealot, the Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth." Welcome back, Reza.
REZA ASLAN, AUTHOR OF ZEALOT: Thanks, Don. Great to see you.
LEMON: Great to see you. You say that to understand what happened in Paris that you have to look at what is happening in all of Europe with the Muslim population. Talk about that.
ASLAN: Yes. Europe is facing nothing short of an identity crisis. I mean, look, the fact of the matter is there have been these seismic changes on the continent culturally, racially, religiously, politically, and that has resulted in this intense anti-immigrant, and more specifically, anti-Muslim backlash. I mean in France, one of the largest parties, the party of Marine Le Pen, The National Front is a virulently anti-Muslim party and very well may win the next elections. You have the party in the UKIP party in the U.K., the Pegida Germany. This is a party whose sole platform seems to be let's get rid of all Muslims. And they have had, for the last few months, every week thousands and thousands of supporters marching in Germany in this notion that, you know, Muslims are some internal enemy. In Sweden, we've had three mosque attacks over the last week. So this has created this sort of intense tension among the Muslim population in Europe and non-Muslim population and (inaudible).
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Did Charlie Hebdo feed into that polarization?
Aslan: Well, it's not a justification buy any means at all, but the -- what Charlie Hebdo represents for a lot of people in Europe is precisely this clash of civilizations. I mean, look, the editors of Charlie Hebdo would unapologetically say that they make fun of everybody, every religion, and they make fun of Muslims for a very specific reason to sort of show or maybe demonstrate that, look, if you want to be in this country, if you want to be in France, then you have to deal with the French values that you have to rid yourself of your own sort of values, ideals, norms, and you have to take on French values. And there have been a number of laws passed not just in France with regard to prohibitions on Islamic dress but throughout Europe about whether you can build mosques or whether you can build minarets, et cetera. And this tension, this polarization, I'm afraid, has led to a lot of acts of violence, not just this tragedy yesterday.
LEMON: So it's being, being characterized as religious, but you think that class and culture are as big of factors in this?
ASLAN: Unquestionably. I mean, look, the Muslim population in Europe, for the most part, tends to be lower middle class. They are economically, socially, politically marginalized. They feel dispossessed. They themselves have an identity crisis. They don't feel French. They don't feel Algerian. They don't feel British. They don't feel Pakistani. And so that's why they become such easy bait for organizations like ISIS or Al-Qaeda. But almost a thousand French Muslims have already joined ISIS. And by the way, this was true in a previous generation with Al-Qaeda. Why its that? It's because ISIS and Al-Qaeda provide a very simple identity for these unmoored youth. Why don't you feel French? Because you are not French. That's why. You're Muslim. You belong to this larger, oppressed group, and that you should come and fight for those values. It's appealing as you can imagine to some Muslims Europe.
LEMON: So as I am reading abut the caricatures in the cartoons, I've read some accounts that say, you know, everyone is saying, you know, this is freedom of speech, freedom of expression, but in a way in America if you did that with African-Americans and you did it, you know, depicting African-Americans with big lips or with watermelons or if you did it with Jewish people with a big nose that is the same thing. Just because you can do it, does that mean that you should do it? Is that fair?
ASLAN: Well, that is a philosophical question. I am -- I have unconditional support freedom of speech. I think you should be able to say whatever you want, whenever you want to, however you want to. But the fact of the matter is that there is such a thing as dominant or privileged cultures, and you know, whether white people in America or Christians or what have you, I mean there is an unwritten code that you can make fun of dominant cultures. You can make fun of privileged classes and that you shouldn't make fun of oppressed or minority classes. That's certainly an argument that a lot of people in France are starting to make.
But regardless, there are these idea that there should be limitations about what you can and cannot say and those limitations are country specific. In France, there is no limitation, particularly with regard to religion and race. And I think Charlie Hebdo was representative of this distinctly French value and an argument that unless you agree with that value, well then, you are not really French, and that's an argument that a lot of young Muslims and particularly young immigrants who come from different cultures they just don't buy into it and enough of them feel angry, perhaps, threatened enough to actually take up violence. It's a great tragedy.
LEMON: And again, I want to -- because you said in no way are you saying that violence is ever right in this particular situation.
ASLAN: Never.
LEMON: You're explaining the conditions that precipitated this.
ASLAN: Yes. Look, there is a civil war taking place in Europe. The Europeans don't know who they are anymore. They're fighting to figure out who they are. They're looking around. The place doesn't look like it did 50 years ago. There are black faces and brown faces and Asian people. And particularly in France, an aggressively secularizing country that has never really tolerated multiculturalism or the kind of cultural religious diversity that is the hallmark of the United States, you can see how that would create the kinds tensions that would bubble up occasionally into acts of violence on both sides. We've seen a lot of anti-Muslim violence in Europe as well as Muslim violence against Europeans.
LEMON: So it's a stock question but, you know, how do we move forward? What do we do to fix this? Because you and I have spoken and this goes beyond. Let's move past the conversation about Islam being violent and all of that. That solves nothing. So then where do we go from here, the world? how do you fix this? How do you -- from having another Charlie Hebdo?
ASLAN: Well, first of all, we have to rely on our political and religious and media leaders to turn down the volume on this rhetoric of division and polarization. I mean, you know, unfortunately, the exact opposite is happening is that these kinds of events just amplify the voices of the extreme. And then certainly, in the case of Europe, you've will see a huge surge of popular support for this far right anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim political parties. But I think the United States is a great model for what to do. I mean, look, a society of many cultures, of many religions, of many races living together in harmony is society of 21st century. I mean the idea that you can have homogenate (ph), either racially or religiously, is a joke. That just doesn't exist any more. And I know that a lot of people have a problem with that, but it is what it is. In the case of Muslims though, I think that something profound is happening because of these attacks and it's -- you can see in in the hashtag that has gone viral, the JeSuisAhmed, Muslims around Europe and in the United States who are identifying first murdered person in Paris during these attacks, Ahmed Merabet, the Muslim police officer who was killed defending Charlie Hebdo's right to character -- to caricature his religion.
LEMON: Reza?
ASLAN: I think that that idea is what needs to excel.
LEMON: They're telling me I need to go five minutes ago, but I have to ask you this, did you hear the conversation I had with the Congressman (inaudible)?
ASLAN: I did.
LEMON: He said he wants to see leaders, maybe the president of -- I think he said president of Egypt come out and denounce this. What do you think of that?
ASLAN: I would like to see that too. Though I would say the president of Egypt is one of the worst dictators in the world and he's ruling over one of the worst police states on the planet. So maybe he's not the best model for what we should and should not do, but, yes, let's hear the leaders of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, and Muslim majority countries come out and unequivocally condemn these kinds of acts of violence.
LEMON: Reza Aslan, thank you for coming on. Please come back. Appreciate it. ASLAN: You got it.
LEMON: All right. The terror attack on the satirical cartoonists has drawn reaction from fellow artists all over the world. One of them is Simpsons star, Harry Shearer. He's joining us next (ph).
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: The attack on Charlie Hebdo slaughtered some of the best known satirical cartoonists in France. But this is clearly about much more than cartoons or satire. Joining me now is a man who knows a lot about both and has a lot to say about the attack. It's Harry Shearer. He has been a starring voice over -- voice over actor on The Simpsons, one of the most successful and irreverent shows in television history. Let's take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOMER SIMPSON, THE SIMPSONS: The lord is vengeful. Oh, spiteful one. Show me who to smite, and they shall be smoten.
NED FLANDERS, THE SIMPSONS: Homer, God didn't set your house on the fire.
REVEREND LOVEJOY, THE SIMPSONS: No. But he was working in the hearts of your friends and neighbors went to your aid, be they Christian, Jew or miscellaneous.
APU NAHASAPEEMAPETILON, THE SIMPSONS: Hindu. There are 700 million of us.
REVEREND LOVEJOY: Aw, that's super.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Harry, welcome.
HARRY SHEARER, VOICE ACTOR THE SIMPSONS: Thank you and bless you.
LEMON: Thank you. So you know, I'm sure the character offend a lot of people, but when you play them, do you ever worry about offending someone?
SHEARER: No, I don't. And you know the interesting thing about The Simpsons is we started out being denounced by a lot of conservative Christians because Bart was supposedly a bad role model. In about year 16, I started doing interviews with Christian magazines because they noticed that The Simpsons had the only two avowedly Christian characters on network primetime television, both of them I play, Ned Flanders and Reverend Lovejoy. So they finally saw the whole elephant eventually.
LEMON: Uh-hmm. What were your thoughts when you heard about this attack on Charlie Hebdo?
SHEARER: You know, shocked, horrified. I think we need to come to a point the where heinous acts are -- the creators of heinous acts are described as that and no more. Whatever slogans are intoned, whether they be avenging the prophet or these were patriots and some mistakes were made, when heinous acts are committed we should call on people who commit them by their real names, which are barbarians or savages.
LEMON: I spoke earlier with Reza Aslan. I think you were able to hear that and we talked about whether this was akin to making fun of Jews and blacks, and you say?
SHEARER: No. I mean, your example was making fun of the people in racial or religious groups with reference to stereotypical attributes that have been laid on them for many years. What Charlie Hebdo was doing was making fun of the super structure of various religions. They got sued 14 times by the Catholic church. They were pretty catholic in their approach to this. But they weren't making fun of the members of the religions, the believers. They were making fun of authority figures. Satire is about making fun of the powerful and -- powerful in every walk of life, be it politics or religion or education. And by the way, satire is meant to draw blood.
LEMON: I think he said it was the larger culture of the culture in power is basically, I think, the connection that Reza was making. You don't think they're the same?
SHEARER: Yes. And then you hear a lot of people in the conservative Christian community in America thinking that there is a war on that dominant culture in America. So you can't win when you start getting into that game. Everybody gets a right to feel offended. Everybody gets a right to feel victimized and then you got nowhere to go.
LEMON: Not long after we learned after the attack, I want to read you something that you tweeted you here. You said, "This just not end. FBI almost certain Paris attack on satirical magazine is caused by North Korea."
SHEARER: Yes. I did.
LEMON: Why?
SHEARER: Why? Well, the FBI was too soon. You know, if you want to go back to that. The FBI wasted $400 million being unable to update their own computer system and yet quick to the mark with a conclusion that most people in the tech world have rejected (ph) as spurious. So I was just making fun of their overuse of alacrity in coming to a wrong conclusion about a public event. But I think, you know, whenever these events happen, we're quick, whether we have the FBI at our hands or not, to try to draw conclusions about people. And as I said before, to assume that we know what was in their mind and that what was in their mind was important. You know, Charlie Manson had an agenda. Who cares? He was a committer of barbarous and heinous acts and he is where he belongs.
LEMON: What about the notion, Harry, that just because you can do it maybe doesn't mean you shouldn't do it? Maybe one should be more respectful of someone's religion or someone's belief -- religion or belief and not parody it. SHEARER: Respect has no place in satire. Respect belongs perhaps in journalism. We have seen, you know, various journalistic organizations make various decisions as to whether or not to reprint the offending images. And it should be noted that some of these organizations have tentacles and a lot of other businesses beside journalism. So they have reason to fear, you know, attacks not just on their journalists but on other aspect of their business. The great thing about Charlie Hebdo is they were on only one business, satire. And when you start doing respectful satire, you know, you should get out of the business.
LEMON: They're going to publish again next Wednesday. What are your thoughts?
SHEARER: I'm looking forward to it. They may -- they said they may only do two pages, but they're gonna publish. I think, you know, we all, in this satirical community, if there is a such thing, expecting them to try to find a way to laugh at all this.
LEMON: Harry Shearer in New Orleans.
SHEARER: Yes, sir.
LEMON: Thank you very much.
SHEARER: Thank you, Don.
LEMON: Shearer has a show on YouTube called Nixon's the One, and we appreciate him joining us. Also coming up, the latest on our breaking news, the manhunt in France, plus how do you fight against radical ideology. First, to find out how you can show your support for those impacted by the Charlie Hebdo attack, go to cnn.com/impact. We'll be right back.
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LEMON: Our breaking news this evening, the manhunt in France for two armed and dangerous suspects in the deadly terrorist attack on Charlie Hebdo. In the war on terror, how do you fight a radical ideology? Joining me now to talk about that, Nicholas Kristof, he is columnist for New York Times, and also Rula Jebreal, foreign policy analyst and author of Miral. Great conversation last night. Thank you for coming back. Ready to continue it? Let's talk now. What do you believe was the strategy, Rula, behind the attack yesterday?
RULA JEBREAL, FOREIGN POLICY ANALYST: Polarization and radicalization. What Al-Qaeda did in Iraq was very easy. They went in. Separated the Shia from Sunni. They start targeting soft targets, mosques, schools, markets. And when the Shia starts answering back, the Sunni actually were an easy target for Al-Qaeda to start recruiting from them and it was then when Al-Qaeda stepped in in Iraq and took over. But there was a success actually and the success what Petraeus did. General Petraeus separated Al-Qaeda from Sunnis, extremist from regular Muslims. And the surge was an American surge with an Iraqi surge. They fought Al- Qaeda together and that what makes it (ph). What Al-Qaeda wants in Europe is to not only an attack on our freedoms and liberty what everybody say. It's also an attack on integration. They want to reach that audience, Muslim audience, and separate them and start recruiting.
LEMON: That's what Fareed (ph) said that this was -- more importantly, we should realize this is a fight...
JEBREAL: Within Islam.
LEMON: ... within Islam.
NICHOLAS KRISTOF, NEW YORK TIMES OP-ED COLUMNIST: Yes.
LEMON: Yes?
KRISTOF: Oh, absolutely. And I think that Rula is absolutely right. That part of the aim here was not just to abandon something that they saw as an attack on Islam but to empower the French right people -- right Marine Le Pen -- and to create a -- this separation and this -- and a crackdown and -- I mean there is a good chance that they will achieve that. I think all across Europe now we're seeing that rightist have been empowered very indistinctively (ph).
JEBREAL: The more they segregate -- if I may -- communities, the more the right-wing in Europe not only -- even in France, in Italy, in the U.K., in Sweden as saw. The more that we segregate them, the more they will crush them. The more these community will be vulnerable actually to radicalization and also the ideology to propaganda, especially people that are borderline with crisis of identity, young people. That will be very easy for them. But then you will have a serious problem.
LEMON: Yes. So I thought it was interesting that -- what Reza said. We had a long conversation before we went on the air and we talked about -- he talked about the issues in Europe when it comes to Muslims and that they basically feel like -- many of them that they don't belong and this was not necessarily just about religion, but it's also about class and culture.
KRISTOF: Right. I mean we clearly have problems in this country with assimilation, and you know, we've seen that with race. We've seen that with ethnicity, but Europe has a much greater one. And Muslims in Britain living in communities, they just don't feel part of Britain. Same thing in France and France may be more than anywhere else. And unless one does have that sense of belonging to a community, a sense of opportunity, then I think people do feel (inaudible).
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: That makes them easy targets for recruitment and for radicalization.
JEBREAL: Absolutely. Look, I am European actually. I have an Italian passport. My daughter was born in Italy. It took me 14 years to get citizenship -- 14 years. This is -- this is how long it takes you actually to become part of the system, and still, most, you know, our skin tone, if I may, treated as guests. I was on television -- on Italian television. I was one of the first foreign anchors on Italian television. A minister, minister of Berlusconi government, he said, "Who are you? You're a guest and you're black. You should not open your mouth." This is the way communities are treated. However, there is an opportunity here and the opportunity is because of the failure of -- and I'm sorry to say that -- of the security services, this is a huge failure in France. Now, they need to recruit and collaborate more with the communities. Who is going to spy or somehow to collaborate and tell you who is radicalized or who is not? Communities themselves. So the more integrated they'd are, the more they will collaborate with you.
LEMON: How does this affect Europe's role in fighting ISIS?
KRISTOF: I mean there is no single solution here. There are million solutions. One has to impede travel back and forth. One has to improve intelligence. France, ironically, had maybe the best intelligence agency on the continent in this area. But one also has to end the sense of marginalization or do what one can. One has to harden targets. One has to above all make sure that people don't have access to biological or chemical weapons because I mean in that case it wouldn't be 12 people being killed. It would be 120 or 1,200. And so, there is -- you know, there are going to be more attacks, and unfortunately, the travel of people to participate in Syria or in Yemen is going to increase their chance of these are going to be lethal, but we can mitigate the risk to some degree.
LEMON: We can mitigate the risk. Yes.
JEBREAL: But we have to collaborate. I don't...
LEMON: OK. Stand by. I just want to say it's 11 o'clock. We're going to continue with our conversation now with Rula Jebreal and Nicholas Kristof.
