Return to Transcripts main page


20-year-old Inspired by ISIS Arrested; French Authorities Are Reportedly Looking for Fourth Suspect in the Attacks in Paris; Interview with Rudy Giuliani; Maajid Nawaz on Radical Islam

Aired January 14, 2015 - 20:00   ET


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. Thanks for joining us. There is a lot happening tonight. We begin with breaking news. The arrest of a 20-year-old Ohio man apparently inspired by ISIS who authorities say was allegedly planning on attack on the U.S. capital.

Christopher Cornell is his name. He came to the FBI's attention several months ago. He was arrested today by the FBI in an undercover operation. Our affiliate WKRC obtained this picture from a customer insight in nearby store and non independently confirm. This is the arrest of Christopher Cornell.

CNN's justice correspondent Pamela Brown joins me now with the latest.

And Pamela, I'm going to speak to this young man's father in just a moment who is obviously says he's completely stunned. The details of this plot, according to authorities, what did they say he was planning?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, the FBI, Anderson, is saying that 20-year-old Christopher Lee Cornell from Cincinnati was actually in the final stages of carrying out his alleged attack of detonating bombs at the U.S. capitol building and then opening fire on U.S. lawmakers as they ran out.

The FBI, according to this criminal complaint, has been keeping an eye on Cornell for several months now after a confidential informant tipped them off about some alarming statements that he allegedly posted on social media about wanting to launch a violent jihad and that he said, you know, congress members were his enemies. And at that one point, he allegedly told the informant in this criminal complaint that he had been in contact with people overseas and wanted to murder U.S. government officials in honor of ISIS, Anderson.

COOPER: So, at what point did authorities start to believe that he posed a credible threat?

BROWN: Well, we know that authorities started working with this undercover informant, this operative in the fall. But according to criminal complaint in late August apparently, Cornell communicated with the informant, his plans saying that I believe we should raise jihad under our orders and plan attack.

So when looking at all these social media postings, the FBI obviously caught its attention and then started following him and then apparently from there, according to the complaint, the FBI alleges that he took concrete steps toward his goal, researching to build pipe bombs, studying the buildings that he wanted to target in D.C. and then today, buying two semiautomatic rifles, allegedly.

Shortly after that, FBI arrested him and charged with him attempting to kill U.S. officer. I do think it's important to note here, Anderson, that official say he did not pose a threat to the public during the course of the investigation over the last several months.

COOPER: And Pamela, I think his dad is going to say, a, he didn't have the money to buy on his own and probably that he was -- the family believes that he was set up to some degree by the FBI.

Do we know much about this informant who apparently connected the FBI with this young man?

BROWN: Yes, we do. So according to the criminal complaint, the FBI had been working with this informant, apparently this informant had troubles with the law so they worked out a deal and said, you know, tell us what you know about others that you may have been conspiring with and in communication with. So in order to perhaps help out himself about the informant alerted the FBI to Christopher Cornell who apparently had been in communication with at least since the past summer, told them about some of the communications he'd had with Cornell. So therefore, Cornell was put on his radar and then the FBI obviously opened up the investigation -- Anderson.

COOPER: OK, Pamela Brown, appreciate the late breaking details.

Now joining me on the phone now is John Cornell, the father of the man FBI arrested just today.

Mr. Cornell, thank you very much for talking to us. What was your immediate reaction when the FBI arrested your son?

JOHN CORNELL, THE FATHER OF THE MAN FBI ARRESTED (via phone): Well, actually, we heard down on the door between 11:30 and 12:00 this morning. FBI, we opened the door, good thing we did. They had (INAUDIBLE). They are going to crash the door down, at least 15 FBI agents. Green township, local police here in Cincinnati out our door. They asked us.

They never really, they just told us they had a search warrant and they never gave us the whole information. They wouldn't tell us, they said we'll tell you what it's about after we conduct our search. They wanted to take me, his mother and his brother because we all three live in the same house. And they wanted to take us in for questioning, which they did. They brought us back an hour and a half later. They were still conducting their search. But when we were up there doing the interview with the FBI agents at our local police station, they asked me a bunch of questions and I said, well, I have a couple of questions for you. I said, where is my son? What is he being charged with? And they said they were not -- because he was an adult, they were not obligated to tell me that. Actually, they lied and said that they didn't know, that they were just, that the people that were handling the search warrant would tell us. They wouldn't tell us anything.

COOPER: Yes. When you actually learned the details of what your son has alleged to have been planning, did you have any idea? Did it make any sense to you?

CORNELL: No sense whatsoever. You know, he's lived at home his whole life. He's never -- well, he's been out of the state of Ohio a couple of times when he was younger when he wrestled. He was a high school and middle school wrestler. We went to wrestling tournaments, the only time he's been out of the state of Ohio. He lived at home.

Very seldom ever left the house. He's a big ma's boy, you know? Best friend is a kitty cat named Mikey, you know. I can't believe, I mean, this is just like total shock. I think, you know, I've had some time to process some of this. And I don't know the information that I got was supposedly made some statements on twitter, on social network, to someone and this person had some criminal charges and added to those charges or had those charges lessened, turn Chris over to the FBI. And Chris may have said things out of anger or -- there's just no way he could have carried out any kind of terrorist plot. No way.

COOPER: You don't believe he was capable?

CORNELL: He didn't even own a car.

COOPER: I know you watch a lot of news and I know, obviously, you know, he would come in the room when you were watching news. There would be reports about ISIS and other terrorist groups. Had he ever said anything to you about is? I know he'd relatively recently converted to Islam. Did he talk much about it?

CORNELL: No. No. I asked him, you know, I asked him, you know what I mean? Because I was concerned because of, you know, all the stuff that I see on the news. And he explained to me and said, no. He said that's not, that wasn't part of his -- he said he wasn't part of a religion. Islam to him was a way of life. And just had to let people be, like Christian people want to believe in Christian ways, I guess you just got to let people be who they are and be who they want to be.

COOPER: So what do you think? Do you think the law enforcement is not telling the truth? Do you think that they led him on and do you think possibly the son really was plotting something?

CORNELL: I tell you what. If he posted some things, he may have said some things out of anger, if he posted stuff on social network, it's there. They have access to that. But what I'm saying is this. An informant turns this stuff over to the FBI months ago, right? And introduced him to another friend, right? Which happened to be an FBI agent, right? And I think Chris has only left the house to go anywhere I think maybe two or three times in months, you know, in months. He was supposedly going to a mosque where in actuality, what I believe was it was an FBI agent picking him up, taking him maybe to an apartment and I think Chris was coerced into a lot of this. I mean, I know he's my son, but I would be the first -- I wish I could go over there and fight is, but I'm an old man. You know what I mean? COOPER: Mr. Cornell, I know this has got to be stunning for you. I

know, you know, you thought he was sleeping at home last night. He left a note saying he was going to be leaving, that he'd left home and that was the first word you'd gotten of that. I appreciate you talking to us and we continue to follow this. We'd like to talk to you again.

CORNELL: Yes. One other thing, Anderson?

COOPER: Yes, sir.

CORNELL: He had money saved up. He had a seasonal job. He worked across the street as seasoned job. Only $1200 saved up to his name. And he has got supposedly purchased today over $1700. I don't know where he got the other $500. I think that was supplied by the FBI.

COOPER: Mr. Cornell, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

CORNELL: OK, thank you, Anderson.

COOPER: I want to talk about this. I want to bring in former FBI and CIA counterterrorism official, Philip Mudd.

Phil, you hear the dad there saying, who's understandably, I mean, he says he is completely stunned by this, obviously. He believes maybe the FBI gave money to his son, maybe the FBI kind of led him down a path that he might not otherwise have been on. What do you make of those comments?

PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: There are inflection points in these cases that are common, Anderson. Obviously, we don't have the facts to this case. But I've seen so many of these. I can give you some predictions about what happened here.

Somebody, an informant comes in to the FBI and says I'm talking to somebody who's angry. Father there, as you just heard talked about his son being angry, recent conversion. FBI agents starts to run the operation. The kid starts to say I wants to do something about it. The kid doesn't have money. He talks about acquiring a weapon. You got couple of options. You can we won't give you the money. At that point, you don't control the operation. That kid might say, hey, I'll go someplace else. All of the sudden, the operation is very difficult to understand. Maybe he goes and finds a weapon someplace and conduct an operation you don't know about.

So you step along to close this out over the course of the month, you ask him a dozen times. This is the informant. You sure you want to do this? You sure you want to do this? A dozen times the kid says yes. What do you suppose to do in this situation? I feel for the dad. I'm sure he didn't know. But when that case walks through the door, you got a couple options, let it go, and move it along so that you own it or step away from it and risk that the kid does something you don't know about a year down the road.

COOPER: It is interesting you bring up the idea that if, you know, because some people look and say, well, it's the FBI leading somebody on to do something they otherwise wouldn't. You're flipping it around and saying if the FBI doesn't kind of walk him down the path with him, he may go down some other path with some other people they have no access to or control over.

MUDD: Sure. You want to own the case. I think there is a broader cultural issue here, Anderson. And that is, this kid, I'm guessing and we've seen cases like this, you remember recently in Ottawa the attack on parliament, we saw the ax attack in New York City a few weeks ago against a policeman.

We talk about the terrorism or radical Islamic angle. We don't talk about the emotional or psychological state of the person. My guess is this individual, remember, this is a classic lone Wolf. Unlike the cell in Paris. Probably, and this is just a guess, but probably in a lot of cases I saw maybe has emotional or psychological issues. When you go in front of a jury of his peers, the first thing the defense attorney is going to say is this is entrapment. Case after case after case at the front end, a parent or friend will saying it's entrapment. The jury looks at the tape for example, I'm guessing the informant was taped up. And the tape show a dozen times, this kid will be saying I want to do it. I want a gun. I want to go kill somebody.

COOPER: That's interesting, though, in your experience is though, watching this stuff, following this kind of cases both with the CIA and FBI, you've seen people, some people who are ideologically motivated, some people do have connections to groups, to reach out to groups and some people just have emotional problems, who whether it's aspirational or not, kind of claim some sort of connection.

MUDD: That's right. I think you can make a quick distinction when you see a case. As soon as the case expands to two or more people, that is conspiracy. You can guess that the emotional or psychological state to those people is more stable. They're involved with the group of people who are collectively making a decision.

When you see these lone wolves, one of the first questions I have, because people in this country want to vilify Islam. I get attacks probably for this interview, Anderson. The first question I have isn't whether this guys a true member of ISIS. He's certainly a not, whether he's a sympathizer of ISIS. My first question is what's the psychological evaluation as soon as he gets to the federal prison?

COOPER: Interesting. Phil Mudd, appreciate your expertise. Thanks.

Quick reminder, make sure you set your DVR so you can watch "360" whenever you want.

As I said, there are a number of developments today both here in the United States and overseas as well. Week after the deadly terror attacks in Paris, a disturbing report that the gunman had rocket propelled grenades or at least one RPG and planned to use them to take down a plane. I will speak with the French reporter to get the latest on that. That, basically being a speculation on the part of the French police according to this reporter.

Plus, the latest on the search for a reported fourth suspect right now.


COOPER: Welcome back. As I said, there is a lot going on tonight. Breaking news in the investigation of the deadly terror attacks in Paris. French authorities are reportedly looking for a fourth suspect now who may have been involved. That according to a French newspaper "La Parisian" which reports the man was an accomplice of Amedy Coulibaly who killed four people during that siege at a supermarket Friday and also suspected in the death of a French policewoman.

Our chief national security correspondent Jim Sciutto joins me now live from Paris. What do we know about this fourth suspect?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, two clues leading investigators to this fourth suspect. One, a set of keys found in Amedy Coulibaly's safe house apartment. Those keys registered to a motorbike that belonged to this man. Two, ammunition used in the attack on the kosher market, the same ammunition used in a shooting of a jogger the day before that attack which they trace possibly to this man. The trouble is at this point, French authorities believe that this man already left the country possibly to Syria.

COOPER: Right. And the jogger identified the shooter, at least gave a possible identification, very different than the appearance of Amedy Coulibaly. That's why they believe it's a different person than him, correct?

SCIUTTO: That's exactly right. Amedy Coulibaly, African-American, African colored skin. This man described as Caucasian, the way it was dressed, the way that people in the neighborhood of his apartment described him. So we had another clue that it was a different suspect.

COOPER: Right. Should point out, not African-American, of African descent.

Jim, Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula also known as AQAP, they took responsibility for the attack on "Charlie Hebdo." What do they say. There's a video. We are not going play the video because I don't think these guys to get that kind of direct media access but essentially what are they saying?

SCIUTTO: Well, they're saying that it's their attack. They said that this attack was financed, directed, ordered. They even said that there was involvement from Anwar al-Awlaki, the American cleric. He was killed in the U.S. strike in 2011. But saying that he had some roles before in the early stage as he planning this attack as a contact with the Kouachi brothers.

Now, I spoke with the U.S. officials who have said uniformly, it's still not clear that AQAP had executed command and control of this attack. It's possible that something short of that was the case where they provided some funding, some training as you remember, Anderson. It's believed the Kouachi brothers went to Yemen to get some arms training. But it's possible that they then made the decision on target, time, and place. But you know, it's early in the investigation. It hasn't been established definitively yet.

COOPER: Right. And the whole timing on the trip to Yemen was 2011. Obviously, a big delay between that and the attack itself.

Jim Sciutto, appreciate the update.

There have been reports that the brothers in the Paris terror attacks has at least one rocket propelled grenade launcher. Tonight, there is breaking news about what they may have been planning to do with them. This is a picture from surveillance video at the gas station where they stole food and gas while they were on the run after the attack from the "Charlie Hebdo" offices.

Now, you can see what looks like an RPG slung over the shoulder of one of the terrorists. And we are getting word that the brothers may have planned to use that RPG or maybe more RPGs to take out an aircraft. That report comes from the Guillaume Debre, correspondent for the French TV channel TF1. He joins me tonight.

So Guillaume, this new information about the rocket propelled grenade launcher that the brothers had, what are you learning? Because this has been a question all along. We knew that they had, there were early reports that they had a rocket propelled grenade launcher and there are a lot of questions about why they didn't use it at some point during their various attacks.

GUILLAUME DEBRE, TF1 CORRESPONDENT: Yes, the investigators were very puzzled as to why they hadn't used it against, you know, the police or early on. And we know that they got detected, they got located because of RPG that is nowhere in the back of their car. A lot of, several investigator that we talk to now believe that the aim of the Kouachi brothers was to go to (INAUDIBLE), the main airport outside of Paris. They got caught, they got killed a few kilometers away from (INAUDIBLE). They were coming back from the northwest to Paris. And several investigators believe that they wanted to aim at an airliner about to land or having just taken off. And there's a portion very close to in between where they died and right next to (INAUDIBLE) where you actually are very close to the airliner taking off and landing depending on, you know, the wind and the pass in the at the Wasi (ph). So there are several investigator we talked to believed that that was ultimately the aim to use an RPG against the airliner in Wasi (ph).

COOPER: I want to point out that CNN has not been able to independently confirm that. But what is interesting about that is during the standoff at the printing plant which is in this town, as you say very close to Charles de Gaulle airport, they actually -- there were reports they actually closed down one or two runways, it would be interesting to find out if that is in fact why they closed the runways just out of an abundance of caution. Do we know yet where the RPG launcher or other weapons that were involved actually came from? Because I've seen some Belgian media reports. What are you hearing? DEBRE: Yes, There's several reports out of Belgium that a lot of

their weapons, not just RPGs, but you know, a lot of their weapons was purchased in Belgium. It was funded through the northwest border of France. That's, you know, the French investigator are investigating this claim, that comes from the Belgian police.

What needs to be mentioned also is as far as we know, there has been nothing that has been say by the Kouachi brothers or written by the Kouachi brothers that, you know, that proof that their aim was Charles de Gaulle. This whole circumstantial admittance, you know, that leads some investigators to believe they wanted to aim at the Wasi (ph) airport.

COOPER: Guillaume Debre, appreciate your reporting. Thanks very much.

Let's talk about this. Joining me now is former Delta force member and CNN global affairs analyst, retired lieutenant James Reese and CNN terrorism analyst Paul Cruickshank, co-author of "Agent Storm, my life inside Al-Qaeda and the CIA."

Colonel Reese, you were just, well that report was on, you were kind of casting doubt on the idea that that RPG could have been used to bring down a plane. Explain why?

LT. COL. JAMES REESE (RET.), FORMER SPECIAL FORCES COMMANDER: Anderson, that to me from my analysis looking at the picture, that's RPG 18 to 22 series type. And that has about a 300 meter max effective range. Go a little bit farther just flying. But you'd literally have to be on the leading or trailing edge of the airfield to take and landing an aircraft to take that down at Charles de Gaulle. Helicopter? Different story. But I wouldn't use it for a commercial aircraft.

COOPER: I mean, the question does remain, and again, that reporting was based on what he said he's hearing from some French investigators who are basically just kind of coming up with different theories. But the question remains is if they had an RPG, why not actually use it? Whether it was at "Charlie Hebdo" headquarters when that police vehicle was blocking them in the road or other times they had confrontations with the police or even when they knew the end was, you know, was near at the printing shop, why not actually try to use that?

REESE: I think they have a great understanding of what is for. It's an anti-armor weapon. And they knew eventually that, you know, the GIGN or the raid unit down south would show up with armored vehicles. So it would be a great opportunity to shoot an armored vehicle and destroy an armored vehicle. Because that is those, they penetrate armored vehicles and destroy them.

COOPER: Paul, what do you make of the timeline of all of this? Because if in fact, Anwar al-Awlaki, you know, came up with this idea and we know he gave an extensive sermon about the horror of these kinds of cartoons and the importance of trying to target the people who are drawing them. But if, you know, these guys were there in 2011, there's this huge gap now between 2011, the time when this attack actually took place, does it make sense that it would take that long if this was not operationally directed by AQAP?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Yes, I mean, that gap is pretty unusual. In most cases with Al-Qaeda plots, they puts the plans into operation about six to 12 months. Also they got final training. We saw that with the London 777 bombers in 2005. Also, (INAUDIBLE) we got here in New York in 2009.

But one possibility there is that the brothers are sort of waiting out the French surveillance. Because when one of the brothers got back from Yemen in the summer of 2011, the French started watching both of them very, very closely. They eventually lifted that surveillance in June of 2014. So one possibility is the brothers sensed they were being watched and they waited and waited and waited.

COOPER: Right. And we know the younger brother, Said Kouachi, got a job at a fish supermarket and kind of laid low. People said he never talked about politics or anything or religion. Just talk about the price of fish, according to one person.

CRUICKSHANK: That's right. And what AL-Awlaki was telling these recruits was to camouflage that radicalism when they come back. To your -- we know that for (INAUDIBLE), I wrote the book when we was a double agent inside AQAP, he knew al-Awlaki. He knew that al-Awlaki was telling this opportunities recruit. When you got back to the west, lay low. Don't show any signs of radicalism. Go back to everyday life so they will stop watching you.

COOPER: Given al-Awlaki's interest in targeting people and drew this kind of cartoons, it seems hard to believe that these are the only guys who he may have had contact with and if whether it's suggested or directed the idea of going after these cartoonists.

REESE: Well, you know, Anderson, you know, terror cells have a methodology and doctrine. We've seen this all the way back to Abu Vidal (ph), all the way back to black September who turned down, you know, at the Olympics.

COOPER: Right.

REESE: It is really game. So you know, as you know, terror cells are based on intent. Awlaki said here is my intent, go kill these people. He tells the cell. They go out. They get funded. They started to do it. He turns it to the next cell and tells them the same thing. So you throw several balls up in the air and hopefully one comes down. And that's how these cells work in the terrorism world.

COOPER: It's fascinating. Colonel Reese, appreciate you being with us, Paul Cruickshank as well.

Just ahead, I talk to former mayor Rudy Giuliani, who was obviously the mayor when terror struck New York on 9/11.

Plus, the Kouachi are far from the first brothers to carry out a terror attack. We take a look at other siblings who have wage jihad together.


COOPER: It was reported at the top of the program, FBI today arrested a young Ohio man who was allegedly plotting to attack the U.S. Capitol. Christopher Cornell is his name. He was the target of an undercover operation. Authorities say he was inspired by ISIS. I talked to his dad just tonight at the top of the broadcast, who says he believes the FBI may have led his son down this path. His arrest comes as security checks at U.S. airports are being increased. Department of Homeland Security is worried about new bomb making instructions released by al Qaeda in Yemen. All of this in the wake of course of the Paris terror attacks, a reminder that cities everywhere are vulnerable on a lot of different fronts. Joining me someone who knows this better than anybody, former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, who steered this city through the darkest moments after the 9/11 attacks. He runs a security firm. Thank you very much for being with us.


COOPER: First of all, the idea that there is a young American out there who may have been plotting against the Capitol, attacking politicians, setting up bombs and also with rifles, his dad says he believes the FBI led him down this path. But from a law enforcement standpoint? You're a former prosecutor?

GIULIANI: The FBI has no other choice. The FBI was criticized in the Boston marathon for not turning over enough information to the Boston police about the two brothers who were going to attack. So you have to follow these things through.

How can you lead somebody into talking about attacking the Capitol? If somebody is talking about attacking the Capitol, the FBI has to take that seriously. If they didn't and this man attacked the Capitol, can you imagine the criticism of the FBI tonight? The criticism of the agents of the FBI if they didn't follow this through? So you've got to be responsible for the words that you utter.

COOPER: Do you believe that there is a kind of a new wave, a new style of attacks? Since Mumbai, we've seen these kind of small scale attacks where even a handful of people we saw against the Indian embassy in Kabul, Afghanistan. We've seen it in various locations in Pakistan, and certainly now we've seen it in Paris.

GIULIANI: Here is a frustration that I have. It goes way back. This isn't as new as we think it is. Bin Laden wrote about this in 1998 and 1999. How to energize these individual people or little groups of people. We saw it in 2005 in London. That was only a four-person attack from people who, some of whom were English citizens. This sort of lone wolf, smaller attack has been going on for quite some time, and I think it's a very, very big danger, and I think it's much more difficult for law enforcement to follow, because they're spread out. There's so many more of them. They don't use international communications as much. So we're not picking it up in the satellites. This is a very, very big challenge, and it puts a tremendous amount of pressure on the local police. COOPER: And if somebody doesn't have a social -- a potential

terrorist in the United States does not have a social media profile and hasn't been spouting off on Twitter --


GIULIANI: Very hard to find. This is why I've preached for seven or eight years, every time I speak to the FBI, you've got to use your local police of which we have 800,000 in America, as your eyes and ears. They've got to be trained in what Commissioner Bratton calls the precursors of terrorism. What do you look for? What are the things that we're spotting? We have to treat this almost in the way we used to treat street crime.

COOPER: One of the things, I talked to a lot of police officials and intelligence officials last week in France when I was there. And universally, they've said traditionally that French authorities have done a very good job of infiltrating.

GIULIANI: They have and they have given us a lot of information.

COOPER: Right. That's the thing. U.S. gets a lot of their human intelligence from French authorities, from British authorities beyond, you know, satellite data and communications data which the U.S. gets, they rely on the ground intelligence from these agencies. The fact that the French right now seem overwhelmed with the sheer volume of people who are potential suspects, that's incredibly worrying because it has implications for U.S. intelligence as well.

GIULIANI: Maybe they underestimated with all the intelligence they had. It may be it was just a little bit too much for them. It also may be that we're not putting enough resources into it. I mean, shouldn't they have continued to follow these guys from the time they came back from Yemen? Why didn't they do it? They didn't do it honestly because they have to make resource decisions.

COOPER: Right. I've heard it takes anywhere from 25 to 30 people to track one person.

GIULIANI: Same thing happened here. That's what happened in Boston, lack of resources. Maybe we have to put more money, more resources and more people into this. Because we're in a very complex fight here. And I relate this, everybody relates things to their own history, to my dealing with the Mafia way back in the '50s, and '60s, and '70s. They denied the Mafia existed. If you said Mafia--

COOPER: We should point out you were prosecuting the Mafia.

GIULIANI: That's right. And it's like people not willing to say Islamic extremist terrorists. This is what we're facing. It is a big threat, and it was only until Director Webster put three, four, five, six hundred FBI agents, and the New York City police department put about 3,000 police officers into doing this that we got it done. So I think we better recognize this threat. I'm a big critic of the president not using the words Islamic extremist terrorism. He's the only world leader who doesn't, by the way. COOPER: It's also interesting when you see when 9/11 happened, the

number of Arabic speakers in the FBI was minuscule compared to what it is now. There has been that education and there has been --


GIULIANI: There is considerably more knowledge. The resources are there. They need more people. They need more money. And we should never back off following a possible terrorist because we don't have the resources. That shouldn't happen again because too many lives are at risk.

COOPER: Mayor Giuliani. Appreciate you being with us. Thank you.

Ahead, blood brothers, partners in crime. Cherif and Said Kouachi. The two terrorists who attacked "Charlie Hebdo." The latest in just a long list of siblings frankly behind terror attacks. What drives so many of these jihadist siblings to extremism and terror? Details ahead.


COOPER: First of all you saw the terrorists' faces and heard their names just hours after the massacre at "Charlie Hebdo." Said and Cherif Kouachi. French brothers with Algerian roots, immigrants orphaned at a young age. The masked gunmen caught on video moments after killing 12 people had grown up virtually alone and poor on the outskirts of Paris. Authorities are now trying to untangle all the threads of the attack they calmly carried out one week ago today. The moment authorities revealed them to be brothers, many people felt a sixth sense of deja vu. The Kouachis are not the first siblings to wage jihad together. Far from it, in fact. It's a pattern we've seen many times before. Jason Carroll reports.


JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Said and Cherif Kouachi, partners in crime, brothers who shared not only blood but also an extremist ideology, but they are far from the only set of brothers who have been tied to terrorism. Boston bombing suspects Dzhokhar and Tamerlan Tsarnaev immediately come to mind. They are accused of killing three people and wounding more than 200 after detonating pressure cooker bombs at the marathon in 2013. But before Boston, before the brothers' deadly plot, there was already a long list of sibling terrorists. Six of the 19 hijackers responsible for the attacks on 9/11 were actually brothers who worked in teams. Take the Alhazmi brothers, Nawaf and Salem. They sat together on American Airlines flight 77 before hijacking and crashing it into the Pentagon. A year later, 2002, in Bali, three bombs, three of the terrorists were brothers. More than 200 people killed as a result. 2007, a failed plot, the plan this time was to attack soldiers at Fort Dix in New Jersey. Three of the would-be terrorists convicted were also brothers. Why so many sibling connections? Dr. Harley Stock is a forensic psychologist.

DR. HARLEY STOCK, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Being a lone wolf, self- radicalizing jihadist, is a pretty hard thing to do. It's hard to be by yourself doing this, it's always good to have some help. The other issue is, who do you trust? So obviously having a family member you can trust is helpful.

CARROLL: Just two years ago here in South Florida, two men who, again, just happened to be brothers were charged with conspiring to use a weapon of massive destruction in the United States. Both men pleaded not guilty. Those two brothers are Sheheryar and Raees Qazi. A man who would only identify himself as a Qazi brother says the allegations are not true.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know my brothers are innocent. They never did anything wrong.

CARROLL: Counterterrorism experts say oftentimes even in the face of overwhelming evidence, families of the accused stick together, and they say that tight family bond can be tough for investigators to break.

ROBERT MCFADDEN, TERRORISM EXPERT: If you have a small group among brothers, cousins, very close friends, it makes it that much more difficult for a lead to get out or to penetrate that cell with an outsider.

CARROLL: Experts say the tightest bond of all may ultimately be beyond blood. It is the bond of extremist ideology, the same one that drove the Kouachi brothers, the same that is likely to lead more to murder.

Jason Carroll, CNN, Miami.


COOPER: Joining me is a former Islamic extremist, Maajid Nawaz, who is now an anti-extremism activist. He is the author of a remarkable book, "Radical: My Journey out of Islamist Extremism." Maajid, you became radicalized when you were 16 years old, after your own brother followed -- joined. And you basically followed him. He did not recruit you, but you sort of followed his example. Can you explain how that happened?

MAAJID NAWAZ, FORMER ISLAMIC EXTREMIST: Yes, I mean, there was a year difference between us, and the ties between brothers, particularly from a cultural background, Muslim or a Middle Eastern or Muslim majority cultural background, the ties between family are emphasized upon by the religion itself, by the culture, and on top of that, facing the violent racism that I did on the streets of Essex in the United Kingdom. My brother was sort of a protector for me. When he joined the Islamist organization, I followed him eventually a year later, I followed him into the movement.

COOPER: Is there often, now in the last couple of days, we have had the case of several parents who said, look, I had no idea this was going on in my house, I had no idea my child was interested in this stuff. Was perhaps even plotting something. Do you hear that a lot from parents, and how accurate do you think that is? NAWAZ: It's very accurate for the parents to say they had little

idea. My own parents were locked out by us. We didn't discuss matters with our parents at all.

And in fact, the type of Islam that extremists come to practice is very, very different to the kind of Islam that their parents have taught them. Which is why primarily it's a second generational thing we see with the rise of Islamist extremism. It's less realistic for siblings to claim they had no idea. And

that's why it's very important that though brothers can lead people towards extremism, they're also at the front line of defense in pulling their siblings out. And, you know, they need to - they need to be - they can be very effective in making sure their siblings don't join such organizations as well.

COOPER: You were saying that the form of Islam practiced by the parents is often very, very different and not radical in the way their children and that's why it's a second generation thing. In some cases, the children's form of Islam, is it a response to the parents?

NAWAZ: Well, it's a response to, of course, to the parents, a form of rebellion. It's also a response to an identity crisis that's emerged. Europe, I believe, as a whole is facing, an acute identity crisis as to what it means to be European today, but also, actually, it's a form of empowerment in that. People that are born and raised in the West adopt empowering narratives. For me, I go into hip-hop first, and I found an alternative identity, and a subculture, a counterculture and it's that form of articulation through using, in fact, western discourse and in fact, Islamism, if you trace how it emerged, it did emerge, it was heavily influenced by post-World War I European fascist ideology. And so, Western discourse, and the entire Western framework is articulated and Islamism is a product of that.

COOPER: Often, I think when people hear that the parents say well, look, I had no idea, they view - they're so much skeptical about that, but you've seen repeated cases and you said in your own case, I mean kids hide it from their parents.

NAWAZ: Yes. I would be more skeptical about siblings or spouses, but I tend to be less skeptical about parents when they claim they had no idea. Of course, every case needs to be taken on a case by case basis. And on top of that, I'd argue that even in the case of siblings and spouses, they may genuinely not know. So, I wouldn't want to, you know, point a magnifying glass on anyone in particular and say they're lying. I think, though, it is - it is important to know that people, second generation, young European and Western Muslims generally who join Islamist groups tend to be quite angry as well at their own parents' version of Islam. It's quite a typical thing that we see.

COOPER: Maajid Nawaz, as always, we like having you on. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Fascinating.

NAWAZ: My pleasure. Thank you.

COOPER: And the book is "Radical," and I really recommend it. Up next, the 9-11 call made by the country club bartender accused of threatening to poison John Boehner, the speaker of the House. Details on that ahead.


COOPER: Welcome back. We have learned it was a 9/11 call that lead police and the FBI to the suspect accused of making death threats against House Speaker John Boehner. The suspect as you may know is a former bartender at a country club in Ohio where Boehner is a member. They've known each other apparently for years. Now, the threats this man allegedly made are not only bizarre, they've also put a spotlight on how vulnerable federal lawmakers may be outside of the heavily protected Capitol building. Here's Dana Bash.


UF: Mr. Speaker.

DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's like the plot of a Hollywood thriller. The country club bartender threatens to poison the speaker of the House. But this indictment is very real, charging Michael Robert Hoyt with threatening to murder John Boehner. The disturbed Hoyt telling police he was Jesus Christ, even blaming Boehner for Ebola.

Um: Can't make this stuff up.

BASH: That was Boehner's response when CNN asked about the threat which he has known about since it happened last fall. Boehner and his wife Debbie knew bartender Mike as he was called, for years. He even had Debbie Boehner's e-mail address and sent her this chilling note after he was fired from the West Chester Ohio Country Club, writing, "If I had any intention of hurting Mr. Boehner, I could have poisoned his wine at Wetherington many, many times. "What's this about?" Debbie Boehner responded. Hoyt's rambling answer, in part, "Mrs. Boehner, I was fired. I could not e-mail Mr. Boehner directly because of the zip code block on his e-mail." The next day, he placed an unintelligible call to 9-1-1.

MIKE HOYT: "Yes. This is mike, I messed up."

BASH: When police went to his home, Hoyt said he had heard the devil's voice telling him John Boehner was evil and he planned to shoot Boehner with an automatic weapon.

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY, (R) MAJORITY LEADER, CALIFORNIA: It's a sad situation. That I think this individual needs a great deal of help, but the speaker needs to be protected.

BASH: After September 11, security was stepped up on Capitol Hill. This armored vehicle known as Bearcat sits outside. But when most lawmakers are home, they are on their own, a fact on deadly display four years ago when an assassin tried to kill then Congresswoman Gabby Giffords. But Capitol police do protect congressional leaders and the House speaker second in line to the presidency has more protection than any other. He does not make a move inside the Capitol or out without security detail, but nothing is absolute.

DOUG HEYE: There may be security at the table next to them, but they're a patron like any other customer.

BASH: Doug Heye was a top aide to former House Leader Eric Cantor when a bullet hole was found in his Virginia office.

(on camera): How common is this kind of thing?

HEYE: Unfortunately, it's more common than anyone would expect. But they all get angry letters every day from Republicans, from Democrats, from Independents. But every once in a while, somebody steps over the line, says something they shouldn't do, makes an overt threat and every time, the Capitol police investigates it.


BASH: Capitol police are reluctant to talk specifics about running down threats to lawmakers, but we do know there's an entire division dedicated to it, called the threat assessment section. Now, when tragedies happen, especially at the hands of people who are disturbed, there's a lot of shoulda woulda coulda. The good news in this case, is that police jumped on signs of trouble and prevented something potentially devastating from happening. Anderson.

COOPER: Dana, thanks very much.

Up next, a big discovery in the investigation at the crash of AirAsia flight 8501, the plane's fuselage with one of its wings attached, possibly more than 100 passengers bodies still inside.


COOPER: Let's get the latest on the other stories we're following tonight. Amara Walker has a 360 bulletin. Amara?

AMARA WALKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Anderson. The judge in the Boston bombing trial has denied a request from Dzhokhar Tsarnaev's attorney to delay jury selection due to the terror attacks in France. The accused bomber is facing 30 federal counts for the attacks nearly two years ago. His brother died days later in the shootout with police. Three people died in the bombings, hundreds were injured.

Searchers have found the fuselage of AirAsia flight 8501 in the Java Sea. Divers will look for bodies. At least 50 have been recovered. More than 100 are missing and could be in the fuselage.

Two Americans have made history at Yosemite National Park. They are the first to free climb 3,000 feet up the sheer face of El Captain's Don Wall. All they used were their feet and bloodied hands to cover the more than half mile section. It took them 19 days. Many consider it the toughest rock climb in the world. And a frightening moment caught on tape when a hippo surges out of the water and charges a boat full of tourists at a national park in Zambia. No one was hurt, a tour guide posted this video on Facebook.


COOPER: Wow. You've got to watch out for those hippos. Amara, thanks very much. That does it for us tonight. We'll see you again at 11 p.m. Eastern in other edition of 360. I hope you join us. "The Cosby Show: A legend Under Fire" starts now.