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THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER

10 Raids Take Place Across Belgium; Interview with Tony Blair; Ohio Man Plots Terror Attack on U.S. Capitol

Aired January 15, 2015 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: He'll join me next for an exclusive interview to talk about the terror threat throughout Europe and how to combat it. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD, I'm Jake Tapper. We're going to continue with breaking news in our world LEAD. More gunfire, more death, this time in Belgium as special forces raid a suspected terrorist cell, one believed to have been directed by ISIS. Belgian authorities say they had the group under surveillance for weeks and they were supposedly plotting with ISIS, this terror cell, to pull off an imminent attack.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

TAPPER (voice-over): We have been showing you this dramatic video of the raid as officers moved in on the suspected terrorist cell. We now know that at least two people were killed and a third was taken into custody, all of them members of the cell, alleged members of the cell. This all comes, of course, a week after the terrorist ambush on "Charlie Hebdo" magazine in Paris which has put much of Europe on high alert, not to mention, of course, the slaying, the cold-blooded murder of a French policewoman and killing four Jewish Frenchmen at a kosher supermarket.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

TAPPER (on camera): CNN's John Berman is live in Paris, he has all the latest developments. John, we've also been told about raids being carried out in other cities, not just this one raid. What can you tell us about that?

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, Jake, the raid in Verviers, the one where those two suspects were killed and one apprehended, apparently one of ten that have taken place in Belgium over the last several hours. Ten raids in four separate cities. This raid in Verviers turned up what authorities are calling an operational terror cell that was planning a major, imminent attack inside Belgium. And, most importantly, Belgian officials say that these men are the individuals who were killed and one apprehended, had been in Syria fighting alongside ISIS and had returned to Belgium at the direction of ISIS to carry out these attacks inside that nation.

The news conference where they announced this information was brief and officials say deliberately so because they did not want to reveal too much information about what they were doing at that time, leading one to believe, Jake, that perhaps there are still ongoing operations in Belgium overnight. One suspect in custody, no doubt they are pressing him for information about the possibility or the existence of further people who may be involved in terror operations there.

Crucially at this time, Jake, they do not see any connection, direct connection, between these raids in Belgium and what happened here in Paris, the two attacks in Paris that left 17 people dead. Again, operations could still be going on. Two suspects killed, one now in custody four hours from where I'm standing, Jake, in Verviers in Belgium.

TAPPER: John Berman, thanks. And, lest we forget, it was just a few months ago in May of last year that an Islamic terrorist who had just returned from Syria went to the Jewish Museum in Brussels, in Belgium, and killed four innocent people. There are few world leaders who have more experience battling Islamic extremism than former British Prime Minister Tony Blair. In 2005, as you no doubt recall, Muslim terrorists killed 52 people and injured more than 700 in that horrific coordinated bomb attack on London's transit system. Since leaving office eight years ago, the former labor party leader founded the Tony Blair Faith Foundation which is working to root out religious fundamentalism around the world.

I spoke with the former prime minister earlier today. We talked about the terrorist attacks in Europe and the many challenges ahead.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: It seems as though these terrorists who carried out these attacks in France were known by French authorities, by British authorities, by American authorities; was this, do you think an intelligence failure?

Or is this just a reflection of the reality that there aren't enough people in law enforcement and intelligence to keep track of everybody who might do something like this?

TONY BLAIR, FORMER BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: I am, you know, completely sympathetic to the security services in this situation. They're trying to track a whole lot of different people who may or may not constitute a danger.

You look back when an event like this happens and say, well, surely someone should have thought that maybe they were the people. But you know, I know from the British security services they're tracking cells of people all the time.

TAPPER: I want to ask you about a headline in "The New York Times" and a debate about what was behind this terrorist attack and what is behind other terrorist attacks.

It says, "Crisis in France Is Seen as Sign of Social Ills, Alienation of Muslims in Poor Suburbs."

Do you buy that?

BLAIR: I think that you can have got a multiplicity of factors like poverty, alienation, particular psychological reasons related to the individual, why people do these things. If we believe that, you know, by different programs on unemployment, or social regeneration, you're going to deal with this problem. You also have to deal with the fact that there are young people being radicalized and in some cases, by the way, as in the case of the British bombers, in 2005, they're not people who are poor. And they're people who have had all the benefits of the welfare systems and the social support that our countries can give.

TAPPER: There was just an arrest in the United States of an Ohio man who did not seem to have any problems like the alienation or poverty that is discussed in that article, who was planning to get bombs and had bought two semi-automatic weapons and 600 rounds of ammunition and was planning to go to Capitol Hill and kill a bunch of government officials.

BLAIR: The debate certainly over in Europe now is, well, look, do you regard this as a huge threat, a global threat, in the terms of which I'm talking about it, in which case you've got to adopt the strategies and policies that recognize this as a long-term struggle? It has to operate at different levels; it's going to be a big part of our preoccupation over the years to come.

Or do you say, look, these are isolated fanatics. You can tail them as best you can. You hope that you minimize terrible events like those in Paris. But you don't treat this as if this was a global security threat that requires the energy, and focus, and discipline from the world's governments to deal with it.

And that's a very live debate.

TAPPER: And you clearly are on the former side.

BLAIR: I am, although I understand those who say, no, if you -- if after 9/11 we hadn't gone to Afghanistan and Iraq, if we hadn't done these things then we would be in a better position.

My own view is that in the end this is not something we caused; it's something we've been caught up in.

And, but I think what is interesting is if you look at France and you look at the justifications being put 'round for this killing and, you know, again, let's be clear: there are -- it's a minority. It's a small minority, but it's a significant minority of voices out there effectively supporting what those people did.

TAPPER: So you don't buy those who say, hey, Tony Blair; hey, George W. Bush, some of these attackers say it's the war in Iraq. It's Guantanamo. It's Abu Ghraib. You don't see that as legitimate because you think there -- the terrorists are going to seize on any excuse to carry out their acts?

BLAIR: Well, I think you can have a very sensible debate about whether it was sensible to do Iraq or sensible to do Guantanamo. What I'm saying is if you look at the justifications given, they're multiple. And there's always a justification.

In respect to France, for example, they were opposed to the war in Iraq. And yet still, this terrorist attack occurs. When you look at it and you analyze it, whatever the justification that they give, there always is one and it's always justifying killing totally innocent people. My view is this is deep, it's global, it's grown up over a number of decades, and policy to deal with it has to deal with recognizing that you're going to have to have short term security measures in order to try and protect yourselves, and then there's this longer term part which is around education and why is this ideology taking root that I think is the bit that's, at the moment, in view completely missing from this debate.

TAPPER: Obviously the West needs to learn from the mistakes of the past. You have been criticized a lot, as has President George W. Bush for the war in Iraq. Looking at the security situation in Iraq and Syria right now with ISIS, do you think that there's a lesson there in terms of what the West needs to do going forward in terms of people whom we don't like and the alternative might actually be worse?

BLAIR: Right, and it's a very good point. And the lesson, undoubtedly, are not just Iraq, but Afghanistan, but then, you know, policy didn't stop in 2008. The lesson is this: when you remove the brutal dictatorship, then a set of problems, or elements, or tensions that were suppressed then come to the surface. So, the argument then goes, so maybe you better leave these dictators in place even though they do terrible things, maybe it's just better to deal with it.

But here's where people have to understand the significance of this growing young population in these countries and the so called Arab Spring or Arab revolutions as I call them. These dictatorships weren't going to last anyway. So all of these societies, the question is now, how do they transit (ph) with this young population to what I would call an open-minded view of the world. And we can debate whether the policies of the past were right up to 2008, or indeed, since 2008 when you'd have to say things haven't gotten markedly better, or is it best now to say, okay, what have we learned from that early policy post- 9/11, what have we learned from the last few years in the Arab Spring, and how do we put together the alliance that isn't about the West versus Islam, but is about modern minded, open minded people, whether Muslims, Christians, Jews, or whoever they are against those who are reactionary and extreme.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: And you can see more of our interview with the former Prime Minister Tony Blair on our website, CNN.com/thelead. We're going to continue breaking news next. Belgian authorities say they stopped a major terrorist attack right before it was carried out. Coming up next, what the U.S. knows about those involved, and how did this raid go down?

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(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING IN A FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

TAPPER (voice-over): Welcome back to THE LEAD. That video you're watching, that was earlier today in Verviers, Belgium. Security forces storming a suspected terrorist cell that one government official says was taking orders from ISIS and was potentially days away from launching attacks in Europe.

Barbara Starr is live at the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

TAPPER (on camera): Barbara, this attack already prompting movement from U.S. officials and NATO. What's going on there, and what, if anything, did the U.S. know about this alleged terrorist cell?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, U.S. officials are saying they did have some understanding that the Belgians were facing this very specific threat. They are not willing to say yet how much the U.S. knew about it and when it knew. However, remember, Belgium is the home to NATO, the international European and U.S. military alliance headquartered there in Mons, Belgium. So we also know that the NATO supreme commander tonight, General Philip Breedlove, who is a U.S. Air Force four-star general, is being briefed on this situation. He has been briefed on Paris. We are told by a U.S. official he is being kept very closely in touch with all of the intelligence, all of the information, especially now that there has been this situation in Belgium.

There are about 60,000 U.S. troops in Europe and, as you know, ISIS has vowed repeatedly on social media and in other ways to try to attack U.S. troops and their families, so there is plenty of concern about all of this. Jake?

TAPPER: Barbara Starr at the Pentagon, thank you so much. Another suspected terrorist attack stopped right here in the U.S. An Ohio man accused of planning a vicious attack on Congress. What is his own father saying about the accusations against his son? That's coming up next.

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TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. We going to turn now to our national lead, the terrorist threat here at home. We are learning more details about one Ohio man's alleged plan to bomb Congress and then gun down lawmakers, and staff, and tourists as they fled. That's at least what a criminal complaint says this man, Christopher Lee Cornell, all of 20 years old, plotted to do. He even bought the guns he intended to mow down the lawmakers with, two M-15 rifles, and 600 bullets. The complaint alleges Cornell wanted to do all of this in the name of jihad under the name Raheel Mahrus Ubaydah. Luckily, his partner in this plot, someone that he thought was another would-be jihadist with whom he conspired online and over Twitter, that partner turned out to be an FBI informant. Yesterday, more than a dozen agents and local police broke down

Ubaydah's door and took him into custody. Today the speaker of the house, John Boehner, who may have been among those in the cross-hairs, credited the FISA program, which allows for NSA snooping on communications, with preventing this attack.

CNN's Alexandra Field is live for us in Cincinnati. Alex, you spoke to this man's father. What did he have to say about his son being accused of this horrific terrorist plot to systematically murder members of Congress, staff and tourists?

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Jake. Both of his parents are heartbroken, devastated, as you would imagine they would be, but his father says to me that his son is 20 going on 16. This is a young man who lived with his parents, was working a seasonal job. The dad says that his son didn't have a car, rarely left the house, never left Cincinnati. The family thinks that he did not have the resources or the capability to pull off an attack, so what was he doing here buying guns? Well, the dad says he believes his son was coerced.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FIELD (voice-over): John Cornell and Angel Carmen in their living room, shocked with the realization that their son is in custody, arrested in a sting operation and charged with plotting to blow up the U.S. Capitol.

JOHN CORNELL, FATHER OF CAPITOL TERROR SUSPECT: Chris has never been out of Cincinnati. I believe he was coerced into a lot of this stuff. I believe that this so-called snitch filled his head with a lot of stuff.

FIELD: John Cornell says that his son recently took up an interest in Islam but emphasized its peaceful qualities and never mentioned is.

CORNELL: My son is not a monster. I'm not just saying that because he's my son. If I thought he was up to something, I would have beat his butt and I would have been the first one to turn him in.

FIELD: The 20-year-old was first brought to the FBI's attention several months ago after social media posts talking about violent jihad. They say Cornell planned to detonate pipe bombs around the Capitol and then shoot people as they fled. But a man Cornell believed would be his partner in the plot was actually an FBI informant.

The FBI says Cornell told the informant he had contacts overseas, that he had aligned himself with ISIS and believed lawmakers were his enemy. The criminal complaint says Cornell did not think he would receive ISIS authorization to conduct a terrorist attack in the United States, but he wanted to wage jihad on his own, writing, "I believe we should meet up and make our own group in alliance with the Islamic State here and plan operations ourselves."

According to investigators, he researched the targeted government buildings and the construction of pipe bombs. Wednesday, Cornell purchased two AR-15s and 600 rounds of ammunition from this gun store in Cincinnati before FBI agents arrested him in the parking lot. The gun store owner, who was working with authorities, described Cornell's demeanor.

JOHN DEAN, POINT BLANK GUN STORE OWNER: Well-spoken but soft-spoken. Lots of questions. He's a little chatty. If I hadn't had been given any kind of warning ahead of time, I probably would not have suspected him as up to what he was doing.

FIELD: CNN has repeatedly reached out to Cornell's court appointed attorney, but has not received any response. Cornell's bedroom, which he shared with his brother, seemingly that of a typical young man with movie posters and video games. The principal at the high school he attended and where he wrestled described Cornell to CNN as a normal student, saying, "Christopher was not a disruption or a discipline problem in school. A quiet, but not overly reserved student who would participate in class, did not withdraw from his class work." But now, authorities are tracing the steps of the young man accused of a plot to attack his own country.

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FIELD (on camera): Because investigators were following Cornell, they say law makers were never in imminent danger and, Jake, Cornell will appear in court tomorrow.

TAPPER: Alexandra Field in Cincinnati, thanks so much for that report.

That's it for THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. I now turn you over to Wolf Blitzer in THE SITUATION ROOM. Wolf?