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Dozens of Jihadi Sleeper Cells Potentially Threatening Europe; Counter Terror Agencies on High Alert; "Charlie Hebdo" Magazine Founder Slammed Slain Editor; Republican Party Cuts Number of Debates to Between 9 and 12

Aired January 16, 2015 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: The news that dozens of jihadi sleeper and terror cells could be threatening parts of Europe has counter terror agencies on high alert. They're trying to assess these growing and complex threats. And there have already been more than two dozen, I should say, arrests at this point, 13 of those happened in Belgium. That's where police conducted raids that ended with two suspects dead.

The arrests raising key questions about sleeper cells, does the crackdown stall them or forces their plans to overdrive? And does it hurt police investigations if officials move in too soon?

Joining me now to answer some of these questions, we have CNN global affairs analyst David Rohde.

So this is the question, David. Do you have, in this case where some cells have been busted, do you have other sleeper cells reacting to that?

DAVID ROHDE, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: You could. And that's what we don't know. And the problem here is that we've known about this for years, the thousands of young men from Europe were going to Syria and finding. Now, hundreds of them are back. They could be trained to be very disciplined and run cells that are hard to find. They could be home on their own and just be inspired to recent miss to carry an attack on their own. It is this sort of different kind of threat and there is no formula for dealing with all of them.

KEILAR: And they may not all be talking to each other, right? They may not be connected, really.

ROHDE: In sort of traditional. Listen. A lot of this is there is technology, there is the web to incite people, but this is classic spy craft. You'll have one cell here and another in a different location. They might not know that the other exists. And that's designed so if one is taken down, the other one can survive. Again, it is very hard to, you know, to track. And they have also these groups are changing their tactics. They're not calling each other on cell phones and saying anything remotely suspicious.

KEILAR: What are they doing? How are they talking? ROHDE: Well, it's unclear. They could be meeting in person. But

what is disturbing is the raids in Belgium, you know, these guys that were killed, they had classical (ph) assault rifles as we saw in Paris. They have police uniforms. They have explosives. It is not easy classical (ph) assault rifles in Western Europe. How are they getting these things?

KEILAR: And how would they? They are getting them from other places. They've been trafficked in obviously. So they have some connection to somebody who is a terrorist. Are investigators here getting any leads when they go in like we saw in Belgium? They bust open a sleeper cell. And it should be I think a wealth of knowledge but maybe it isn't.

ROHDE: I think it is in terms of probably those people. And if they're Belgium citizens, their network of friends and family, they can track those down. What they won't know is sorts of people who maybe they met in Syria and who have come back and went their separate ways coming from Syria. Maybe they know French jihadists or German jihadists. You talked about there is someone who trained that were, you know, busted on their way to Italy.

KEILAR: Yes, two of them on the way from France to Italy. Could others have slipped through?

ROHDE: You know, we don't know. Clearly though, right now, the level of alert is very high. You know, if you mention, they may want to wait because it is now very difficult, you know, to mount an attack because law enforcement is, you know, on edge and ready. So they could wait for weeks or months. Who knows?

KEILAR: Do you think these series of crack downs stalls some of their plans rather than maybe expediting that, expediting their plans? From a law enforcement perspective here, what is the risk in getting involved too soon? We heard from the prosecutor in Belgium that these folks were maybe hours, maybe at mass, it sounds like a day or two out from doing something. Why not go in sooner?

ROHDE: Well you want to wait. And one thing is they often try to do is I think they are trying to get informants into the cell. That's the best way to get intelligence to get the names, the plans, who's supplying them, who's funding them. And so, traditionally law enforcement wait as long as they can. Clearly, this was a very dangerous, you know, situation, a very close call. And it was a good sign that they stopped this attack clearly. They are, you know, the Belgian intelligence service was on top of this.

KEILAR: What made me feel more comfortable was that they had been under surveillance for sometimes. It sounds like by, you know, the skin on their chin, you know. So that's the good news.

All right, David Rohde, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

ROHDE: Thank you.

KEILAR: And next, the satirical "Charlie Hebdo" magazine now getting criticized from an unexpected source. One of the magazine's co- founders, he says the publications slain editor to blame for last week's terror attack. Brian Stelter has that part of the story next.

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KEILAR: Just in to CNN, in a big move, the Supreme Court announcing that it will tackle the issue of same-sex marriage and whether gay couples have the constitutional right to marry or whether states are allowed to ban it.

Four states had petitioned the court. Florida recently becoming the 36th state to allow gay marriage. Arguments are expected in April and a ruling expected in June. We'll have more on this coming up.

Berman, back to you.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: All right thanks so much Brianna. That's a big legal development.

Meanwhile here in Paris, the editor of "Charlie Hebdo," Stephane Charbonnier, was laid to rest today. But as his loved ones mourned, a founder of the magazine, where he was killed last week behind me, is slamming the editor.

Joining me now to talk about this is senior media correspondent, Brian Stelter, host of CNN "RELIABLE SOURCES."

Brian. This founder's name is Henri Roussel. What did he write about Stephane Charbonnier, the man known as Charb?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN HOST, RELIABLE SOURCES: Yes. He's now 80 years old. But in 1970, he was a cofounder of the magazine. And he says this editor; the one who died last week was brilliant but stubborn and thought the editor went too far to publish controversial images of Prophet Muhammad particularly after the offices of the magazine were fire bombed back in 2011.

Now back then, they were publishing one of these images and they go ahead and chose to publish others in the future including 2012, et cetera. And so, we saw the cofounder say, what made him feel the need to drag the team into overdoing it?

And you know, and John, I think this really mere the debate we have heard for the past ten days about how much is too much or whether there is a line that should not be crossed when it comes to portrayals of the prophet Muhammad.

BERMAN: There is that discussion. But it is a very specific claim, Brian. He dragged the staff somehow went to doing this. It's hard to buy that case when you see the surviving staff members have died even after the death of Charb. We went to that news conference where (INAUDIBLE), the man that designed the new cover, explained why he put Prophet Muhammad on the cover even again, even after the death of Charb. You know, Charb is not dragging with anything now.

STELTER: Yes. That's a great point. And I think we have heard from many staff members both ones who died last week who were quoted in the past saying they knew the risks. And now surviving staff members still working on the magazine, who say they were and still are aware of the risks that come along with the work they do, with the provocative work that they do. And to that point, underscoring that point, we did see protests in a number of different locations in the Middle East today.

We saw a protest turn violent in Karachi, Pakistan. That's when couple hundred of people were trying to march toward the French consulate there. They were pushed back, propelled by water cannon and rubber bullets. But an AFP photographer was injured. That photographer happens to worked for a news outlet that is based in France AFP. We don't yet know if that's a coincidence or not. There's no evidence it was intentionally firing at that photographer because they were for AFP. But if it's a coincidence, it's awfully disturbing one, at least. And that person is now recovering from the injuries.

BERMAN: All right. Brian Stelter for us, our senior media correspondent. And to just give an update, Brian, for those that haven't asked, still can't find an issue of "Charlie Hebdo" at most on newsstands, still sold out everywhere we've looked here in Paris.

STELTER: I have been trying to find one back in New York today, John. I can't find one here either.

BERMAN: Brianna.

KEILAR: All right next, to be young. Thanks John.

Next we'll be talking about what it's like to be young marginalized and Muslim. We will visit with the author of a powerful an revealing op-ed from teenage angst to jihad. Stay with us.

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KEILAR: Before they unleashed a massacre at the offices of "Charlie Hebdo," the Kouachi brothers went to the wrong floor of the Paris office building that houses the satirical magazine. They ran into two maintenance men, Frederic Boisseau and Jeremy Ganz. Frederic was shot and killed.

CNN senior international correspondent Jim Bitterman spoke with the surviving witness. His courage is remarkable.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEREMY GANZ, WITNESS, CHARLIE HEBDO ATTACK:

(SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

JIM BITTERMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Were you frightened?

GANZ: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

BITTERMAN: You had a good view of the gunman?

GANZ: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

BITTERMAN: What feelings do you have toward the gunman?

GANZ: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KEILAR: And next, we still don't know exactly what candidates will be on stage, it better be a big stage, though. Just moments ago we learned which key cities and which networks will host the Republican presidential debates. Stay with us.

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KEILAR: The Republican Party aiming to grab the White House next year has learned from the past, the GOP has cut the number of primary debates to determine its nominee for president. Last go-round, 2012 candidates were exhausted after enduring nearly 20 face-offs at the podium.

Let's bring in CNN politics executive editor, Mark Preston. He is in San Diego, where the Republican national committee is having its winter meeting.

Big paw-wow (ph) this time of year. Mark, tell us about these debates. How many are they are going to be? Where are they going to be? And these cities realize that the stage has to be gigantic if the potential field is any indication, right?

MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes. No question, Brianna. Look at this point, you were looking at over more than a dozen Republicans. Some would say a dozen legitimate Republicans who are talking about running for president. What we have seen here today is a Republican national committee, basically the governing board of the whole Republican party decided to cut the number of debates down to somewhere between nine and 12. A stark difference in what we saw back in 2012. And they did this because of the bloodletting that they saw back in 2011-2012, where we had so much interparty fighting. They thought that Mitt Romney went into the general election bruised, battered. He didn't have the money. This is one effort that they are trying to take.

Now, of the nine to 12 sanctioned debates that they did today, CNN is actually going to be hosting three of them. And I think you could argue that perhaps the most important one certainly at the beginning is going to be in September, on September 16th at the Reagan library. CNN did a debate, Brianna, back in 2008. It was the final debate of the 2008 Republican presidential nomination at the Reagan library, so really, a symbolic place for Republicans to talk about politics and policy in September.

KEILAR: And there could be more, right? So we see nine here but there could be these three more. PRESTON: Right. No doubt. So that's why I say somewhere between

nine and 12, nine and 13. The debate process for Republicans is going to start in August. It is going to happen -- at the beginning will happen in Ohio, where Republicans will hold their convention, in many ways a symbolic start for the debate process will be where they end and choose their nominee a year later. That will be in Ohio. That will extend all the way through the end of February. That gives you nine debates across several different television networks.

Then we hit March. And in March, we have CNN and another television network that is already lined up to do those debates. And you could argue at that point, Brianna, that's when the stage will be shrunk. We won't see a dozen candidates. We will probably see just a handful of candidates onstage. Those who made it through Ohio, or rather Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and that's when we are going to start seeing some real, real debating going on and probably have a better idea of who is going to be the GOP nominee. So that will happen in March.

KEILAR: Do you think, Mark, that when you're talking about having 12 debates, I mean, that still sounds pretty -- it's not 20, but it still sounds like it could be pretty bruising and kind of remind us why it was so tough for Mitt Romney, sort of what the damage was coming out of those 20 debates in 2012.

PRESTON: Yes. You know, there are two lines of thinking on is 12 or 20 too many debates or should there be less. If you are a candidate who is not able to raise an incredible amount of money like Mitt Romney was able to do back in 2011-2012, you would have somebody like Rick Santorum or Newt Gingrich who are able to use the debates to their advantage, not only to get their message out but to try to compare and contrast themselves with the front-runner at that time, Mitt Romney.

Now, the establishment, Republicans, were very upset by that because they felt like it was unneeded. But if you are a grassroots Republican, you want to see more debates, especially as we head now into this next election cycle, Brianna. As you said at the top, the bottom line right now is we have at least 12 candidates, maybe more, who potentially could vie for the Republican nomination.

I can tell you, Brianna, just in the last 24 hours, I saw Scott Walker basically deliver his opening speech for his candidacy. I saw Ben Carson do that yesterday. Right behind me in the next hour we will see Rick Perry, the Texas governor, do it. And then in just a couple of hours, Mitt Romney, who let news leak last week that he is going to run again, will be here in San Diego. He is going to speak directly to the RNC members. We are actually going to be able to see his first public comments, Brianna.

KEILAR: All right. Mark Preston getting us ready for what is sure to be a slugfest no matter whether it's 20 debates or 12 debates.

Mark Preston in San Diego, thank you.

Before we go, the Obama administration was criticized earlier this week for failing to show up at that huge anti-terror rally in France with other top world leaders, dozens of them. And now secretary of state John Kerry is in Paris making, I guess, you could say a belated visit. He said in a statement he wanted to quote, "give Paris a hug." That big hug, perhaps? It included singer-songwriter James Taylor doing a special version of "you've got a friend" for the people of France. Let's listen.

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KEILAR: Kind of odd, isn't it? Well, you know where you've got a friend. That would be a friend in Jake Tapper. And that does it for me. "The LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts right now.