Return to Transcripts main page

LEGAL VIEW WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

Juror Issue Causes Delay in Aaron Hernadez Trial; New ISIS Photo Shows Jordanian Pilot Burned Alive

Aired February 3, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to LEGAL VIEW. I'm Ashleigh Banfield.

As Bostonians dig themselves out of the snow and prepare to celebrate tomorrow their big Super Bowl champs, there is one former New England Patriot who's nowhere near the parade planning. He is sitting right there in court live in Fall River, Massachusetts, in a murder trial. The testimony in the Aaron Hernandez trial was scheduled to resume today after all those weather woes. But guess what? There has been yet another wrench thrown into the plans. And this morning's court session began with what appeared to be another issue with a juror. Let's not forget, this man is extraordinarily famous and so everyone is very sensitive. The problem will be hashed out behind closed doors, though. So you and I and everyone else in the public can't see this. All before any ounce of testimony picks up in that courtroom.

Joining me from outside the courthouse in Fall River is CNN's Miguel Marquez.

I don't know if it's just me, but it seems that this trial has been plagued with jury problems from the outset. Even just to seat that jury was difficult. Do we know what the juror issue is or whether it truly is a juror issue? Because we keep hearing there are evidentiary issues as well. What's going on, Miguel?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it sounds like we're dealing with two different things this morning. One is a juror issue that we now do have confirmed. This is a juror, a female in her mid-40s. The judge brought her aside early in the day, then took a long recess after a fairly lengthy sidebar in which Mr. Hernandez came up during that sidebar. The judge then broke, suspended trial for a little while, came back in and then immediately said, we're going to deal with this without the jury and without the public here, booted everybody out of the courtroom and they want to deal with whether or not this one juror is -- can -- has the qualifications to stay on this trial.

Separate to that appears to be an evidence issue that has arisen between the prosecution, the defense and the judge. The discussion was whether Mr. Hernandez had the right to be present for those discussions about this particular bit of evidence and how he wants to be -- the prosecution wants to bring it in or something has changed. It is not clear. All of those discussions to happen outside of our earshot and the jury's earshot. Before they all broke for the weekend, the jury did ask if they could

watch the Super Bowl. The judge said, sure, watch it. But if any discussion comes up about Hernandez, walk out of the room.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: All right, Miguel Marquez wrapping things up for us, keeping an eye in Fall River. Thank you for that. We'll come back to you when the news warrants.

I have some breaking news now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BANFIELD: Breaking news that we want to bring to you. And, believe me, there is no news like this I ever want to have to announce, but this is savagery on a scale we have yet to ever see, even from a group called ISIS. That terror group is now circulating photo that appear to be the captured Jordanian fighter pilot, Muath al-Kasaesbeh, being burned alive. Al-Kasaesbeh was captured when his jet went down over Syria in December and last month he and Japanese hostage Kenji Goto were publically threatened with death, death unless Jordan released an Iranian bomber, suicide bomber, who was being held on death row in Jordan. Jordan wanted proof that al-Kasaesbeh was alive.

Over the weekend, however, things changed and the Japanese hostage, Mr. Goto, was beheaded. And now it seems al-Kasaesbeh has also been murdered. And I do need to tell you that while those photos are circulating online, CNN has made a decision, as we have made in other cases as well, not to depict these images. There are many reasons why. Number one, they are terribly graphic. Number two, there is a huge argument to be made that ISIS is using the media to help get its message out and to help with its threat machine.

I want to bring in Barbara Starr, our Pentagon correspondent, who's live right now at the Pentagon.

Barbara, this is just -- I said it at the beginning, it's savagery like we have never seen before. I have seen the images. I thought they couldn't possibly be real. But the Pentagon now, I am assuming, has confirmed that they believe this is real.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: No, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: No.

STARR: I have to tell you in all candor, the Pentagon, the U.S. government has not made that authentication yet, but at this point perhaps no reason to believe they are not real. The U.S. government has regularly looked at all these videos and tries to come out with some sort of finding that they're authentic.

You are right, this -- I mean let's be very clear if there are young viewers, perhaps they should not be hearing some of this. It is graphic in ways that are very difficult to describe. CNN will tell our viewers that it purports -- it purports to show the murder of the Jordanian pilot, Muath al-Kasaesbeh, by essentially, factually let us say, burning him alive. That is what the images show. We will not show them on the air.

I think, Ashleigh, you're making the critical point here. Increasingly the west, the U.S., coming to understand that these ISIS videos, these ISIS images, we call them propaganda. But a lot of concern, in fact, growing at the Pentagon that showing these images just falls right into ISIS' hands. It allows them to control a narrative of horror and terror and complete and utter misery.

No reason to think that these images are not accurate at this point. But, again, the U.S. government, the Jordanian government will have to make the determination that they are authentic. They are just too horrific to show and describe.

King Abdullah of Jordan actually is in Washington today on a pre- planned visit, meeting with a number of officials in Washington. That had already been planned. He was expected to attend the National Prayer Breakfast here in Washington later in the week. We will see in the coming hours if he keeps to that schedule or if King Abdullah decides to return home to Amman.

This is going to hit the Jordanian military very hard. I have traveled in the war zones in Afghanistan with the Jordanian military. They're a relatively small organization. Most of them know each other. King Abdullah personally knows his top commanders, of course. The pilot coming from a very prominent Jordanian family where relatives had served at high levels in the Jordanian military. So this is family business in Jordan. This is a society where it is a great honor to be in the military, where the tribal elements are very strong. And so this will hit Jordan very hard.

It is an ongoing issue in Jordan. Many people questioning whether they want to be part of this coalition. Others saying, yes, that Jordan wants to fight terrorism. So expect to see some reaction in Jordan in the coming hours. It will remain to be seen what that reaction is from the people on the streets of Amman. But just horrifying, terrible news for his family. And I think we all -- as with all of the other hostages who have been murdered, it is beyond our hearts going out to them. This is just horrible, horrible news.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: The inhumanity of it. As if we didn't think that was the case with James Foley, Steven Sotloff, Abdul Rahman, who was known as, you know, Peter Kassig when he was an Americans soldier who was also beheaded. You said, Barbara, family business. The three Americans who have been beheaded publicly as well, that's family business for so many Americans as well.

I just want to reset the circumstance, the situation in this breaking news right now. I want to welcome our viewers -- welcome to our viewers around the world and here in the United States. This is CNN's breaking news coverage of the apparent murder of that Jordanian pilot. And not just a murder, a murder in a brutality that has yet to be witnessed even by a group as brutal as ISIS. Muath al-Kasaesbeh apparently pictures online depicting this pilot being burned alive by members of ISIS. And while it can't be confirmed yet by the various governments who have a hand in either dealing with this or are part of the coalition, it is widely believed that the pictures are, in fact, accurate.

I also want to let our viewers around the world and here in the United States understand why CNN is not showing these photographs that are circulating online. They are horrifyingly brutal. They are also propaganda. And CNN is extraordinarily concerned about being any kind of help in a propaganda machine as well.

But particularly the brutality I can explain to you that this pilot is being held in a cage. It appears that his clothing is soaked in some way. He appears to have been beaten. He is bruised. His look on his face is -- I don't quite know how to tell you other than devastated. He apparently had been paraded through the streets where he was being held. And there is a line of fire that appears to be approaching the cage where he is being held in a standing position. And then subsequent photographs show him engulfed in flames from the waist down. But it is just a terrifying situation and a horrible, horrible depiction of what now is believed to be the murder of this Jordanian pilot, Muath al-Kasaesbeh.

I want to bring in our CNN correspondent, Jomana Karadsheh, who is live in Amman, Jordan.

Jomana, the king is here in the United States. He is in Washington, D.C., as we speak. Has there been any reaction either where you are or here from the government and from the kingdom?

JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Ashleigh, we still do not have confirmation from Jordanian authorities. As you mentioned, the king, King Abdullah of Jordan, is currently in Washington, D.C., and also high-level delegation of Jordanian officials there. We have not heard from them here in Jordan or in the United States yet.

But, of course, a lot of people, we're starting to see a lot of reaction from Jordanians on social media. This pilot, this man was seen as a national hero by so many Jordanians. His capture really was a shock to many Jordanians. Many in this country really took on this campaign calling for his freedom. And, you know, a hashtag that appeared on social media, "we are all Muath," that so many Jordanians, including the queen of Jordan, Queen Rania, tweeted at some point.

And this is going to be devastating news for his family, Ashleigh, who we have been speaking to over the past couple of weeks. And they really have been hanging onto the hope that their son is alive, that he is going to come home. And many Jordanians that we've spoken to in the past few days say that they are praying and they hope that he will make it back home.

Now, of course, the difficult situation here is the one that the government is facing. So far, we've heard from the family and his family is an influential, important tribe in Jordan. The tribes, very important. They are the backbone of support of the Jordanian monarchy. And there has been concern about any negative reaction, any sort of repercussions if anything would happen to Muath al-Kasaesbeh from the tribes in Jordan, who have said that they hold the government and the king responsible for anything that might happen to the pilot. They say that not enough had been done to try and work on his release. The government, for its part, as we've heard in recent days, saying they have not spared an effort to try and release them. They say that they have been engaged in indirect negotiations with ISIS, trying to secure his freedom, something that may have not happened with those apparent pictures of apparent murder coming out this evening.

BANFIELD: Jomana, it's just after 7:00 at night where you are and presumably there are a lot of people now home from work and digesting this news that their pilot has been murdered in the most cruel and vicious of ways, apparently according to the photos, being burned alive, if you're just joining us. ISIS releasing photographs of Muath al-Kasaesbeh, the Jordanian pilot, being burned alive in a cage.

Jomana, just quickly, is there any reaction on the street? How are the people of Jordan reacting to what ISIS has purportedly done to their military man?

KARADSHEH: Ashleigh, very little. We haven't seen any reaction yet on the streets. We do have a team that is out to see what is going on, on the streets, to see if there's any sort of reaction, any sort of protest. We have seen in the past week or so protests taking part, especially by family members, members of the tribe that Muath al- Kasaesbeh comes from, outside the prime minister's office, outside the royal palace, demanding they do more.

So we will be keeping an eye on this situation. The news is slowly starting to circulate here in Jordan and we are seeing a lot of shock from people that really were hanging onto the hope that maybe somehow the Jordanian government would be able to work a deal to try and release Muath al-Kasaesbeh. Although we must say that ISIS has never set public demands for his release. We have never heard any discussion of what ISIS was asking for, if they were asking for anything, if his release was something being offered by ISIS.

But we do know that the Jordanian government said it was willing to exchange Muath al-Kasaesbeh for that female would-be suicide bomber that Jordan is holding and has been on death row for the past 10 years. But the last thing we heard, Ashleigh, from the Jordanian government over the last few days is their insistence on trying to get proof of life. And there had been many questions of why we had not seen images of Muath al-Kasaesbeh since his capture on December 24th. So this news coming as a shock to many Jordanians this evening.

BANFIELD: And, of course, as far as the public is concerned, that proof of life did not materialize. Jomana Karadsheh live for us in Amman, Jordan, thank you for that.

Again, we are welcoming our viewers around the world. The news being that that Jordanian pilot has purportedly been murdered in the most cruel and violent of ways, pictures depicting him being burned alive in a cage. When we come back, where does this story go now? What will the coalition do? What will become of ISIS and might this just backfire? Back after this. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BANFIELD: I want to welcome our viewers around the world and here in the United States. Our breaking news, if you're just joining us, that Jordanian pilot, who's been held since his plane went down over Syria in December, has purportedly now been murdered by ISIS, the terror group that was holding him and demanding untold ransoms for all of the hostages in the last week before killing two last week and now, in the most gruesome way, depicting photographs online that show this pilot, Muath al-Kasaesbeh, being burned alive while standing in a cage. It is untold violence and cruelty at a level we have not yet seen before.

I want to welcome CNN's chief international correspondent, Christiane Amanpour, and the host of Amanpour on CNN International.

Christiane, I did not expect that this would be the kind of proof that we would see that ISIS was still holding this hostage. The Jordanians have been asking for proof of life. To our knowledge, they never got it. And now this. What do you think the reaction is going to be worldwide to this?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, worldwide revulsion for sure. What is the reaction going to be in Jordan? Beyond immense grief and anger, obviously, over what had turned out to be, over the last several weeks and months, depicting Muath al-Kasaesbeh as a national hero, as somebody who absolutely had to be brought back. And as you know, the Jordanian royal family, which rules the country, has been under immense pressure.

On the one hand, a very staunch U.S. and western ally in the fight against ISIS, a victim of terror over the years and therefore committed to fighting this in its backyard. And on the other hand, pressured very heavily from parts of its country, not the whole country, but certainly in areas of the country, particularly in the south, which is less privileged than the rest of the country, which is where this pilot came from and where his family, an important tribe, comes from. There's been a huge amount of pressure, not just to get their son back, but to question whether Jordan should be in this fight.

Now, we have talked to many officials over the last week since this has come to a head with demands made by ISIS and each and every one of them has assured the world that Jordan stands with the coalition. But it is going to be incredibly delicate and difficult balancing act for the king of Jordan going forth as this news becomes public.

BANFIELD: I want to bring in Barbara Starr, our Pentagon correspondent, who's live for us right now with some new reporting on this.

What are you learning, Barbara?

STARR: Well, as they look at this video, Ashleigh, I think Christiane is really crystallizing what the issue now is for the coalition. Jordan, a very small, vulnerable country militarily has been concerned for some years now about al Qaeda in Iraq which was, of course, the precursor to ISIS and ISIS as well. It's one of the reasons Jordan joined the coalition, to put its government and the king's stamp on the notion of moderate Islam.

Now this puts King Abdullah and the Jordanian military in a very difficult position. You'll remember that this female prisoner, Sajida al Rishawi, held convicted of her role in hotel bombings in Amman in 2005 on behalf of al Qaeda in Iraq, again, the precursor to ISIS. Jordan really trying to crack down on all of that. But also very concerned that al Qaeda in Iraq morphed into ISIS, that ISIS would go from Syria to Iraq to making its move again to Jordan. It's one of the reasons Jordan is in the coalition. It's one of the reasons that King Abdullah and the Jordanian military have aligned themselves with the United States.

But now many people in Jordan questioning whether they want to be part of this coalition, whether for this small country and its people, they want to have this human risk that they have now seen here. So I think we're going to see the Jordanian position over the coming days perhaps evolve. The Jordanians, the U.S. hopes, stick with the coalition. But we will have to see about that.

On this question of the negotiations to get the pilot out in return for this female prisoner, a lot of people questioning were -- you know, the Jordanians say they were talking through intermediaries -- have to question, was it ever real? Was it serious? Was there really any hope in retrospect of getting this man out? The -- ISIS has not shown any inclination towards mercy. And let's be clear, no mercy for the people of Iraq, the people of Syria. Untold hundreds perhaps, if not thousands, murdered at their behest. So this is something that the people of the region have been dealing with while we in the west focus on these terrible videos and the hostages, quite understandably, the people who live there, hundreds if not thousands, already murdered at the hands of ISIS. Sheer misery, sheer horror across the region at their hands.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: It will be interesting to see if Jordan has any reaction with regard to that death row inmate that was supposed to be part of the bargaining chip, who has been on death row now for 10 years, Sajida al-Rishawi, the failed suicide bomber. It will be interesting to see if there's any reaction with regard to her jurisprudence and what happens in her case.

Barbara, stand by for a moment. I want to bring in our colleague, Jim Sciutto, our national security correspondent, who's live in Washington.

The issue of the coalition, Jim Sciutto, I can't stress enough how interesting the dynamics may be due to the untold horrors now that Japan has suffered in the last week and now Jordan. Will this, in the eyes of Washington, help for others to -- or push other members of the coalition to either dig in or depart knowing that they have suffered because of their membership? JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: It's an open

question, but it shows the real cost. And I think particularly for the Arab partners. This was already a reach for them to take part in a U.S.-led campaign on Arab land against Arab targets, against Muslim targets. That was a reach. They knew they were taking -- whether you're talking about Jordan, but also the other partners, the UAE, Qatar, they knew that they were taking this step, joining the U.S. in this war with questions and even opposition at home.

Remember, the reaction in that region to the U.S. invasion of Iraq and lesser so to the invasion of Afghanistan, deep, deep opposition, deep anger sparked by that. So to join the U.S. in this war, while, you know, it doesn't mean that folks in the region love ISIS, but still it's a reach to join in military action. So now you see the cost of that immediately driven home for Jordanians.

As Barbara was saying, this is going to leave many more Jordanians to question whether it was worth it. And it will be a real challenge to King Abdullah because this was a risk for him as well. He faces not just political opposition at home, but he faces a real extremist problem in Jordan as well, going back years, decades, difficult for him to keep a lid on. And this is going to make it more difficult going forward. It's a real question. How do they respond? Do they back off or do they dig in deeper because there will be others in that country who were inspired, sparked to support perhaps tougher action.

The other point I would make just regarding the U.S., Ashleigh, you know, we talk a lot about, there are no U.S. combat troops in this war against ISIS. It's already an open question as the U.S. advisers on the ground move closer to military action. But I've talked to a lot of pilots, a lot of folks at the Pentagon. When you're flying above a war zone, you're in combat, you're facing danger. And this highlights what is a danger to the U.S. pilots flying missions there. What if they have a problem? What if they have to eject? It was certainly part of this plan getting search-and-rescue assets in the region so if a U.S. pilot goes down, they're going to move in very quickly. But that's not something that you can do easily. There is a danger to U.S. pilots and this highlights that danger. You can have an issue over there, you can have to ditch -- God knows they would do it as a last, last, last resort. But it highlights that even when you're in the air, there is danger in a war zone.

BANFIELD: It will be fascinating to see if while the coalition members determine their future in that organization, whether ISIS itself, Jim, is doing its own work to crush itself for it.

I have to let you go there. Jim Sciutto live for us in Washington, D.C. When you get more details on your beat, please report back to us.

In the meantime, a quick break. But when we come back, might this even be cruelty that ISIS members may find unacceptable? Could this kind of action backfire? Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)