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CNN'S AMANPOUR
Former Hostage Tells of ISIS Brutality; Restoring Ties between the U.S. and Cuba; Imagine a World
Aired February 6, 2015 - 14:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): This week ISIS sinks to new lows and provokes furious Muslim backlash by torching the Jordanian
pilot. My exclusive interview with someone who managed to escape their depravity, French colleague Didier Francois, on being held hostage by ISIS
for more than 10 months.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DIDIER FRANCOIS, JOURNALIST AND FORMER HOSTAGE (voice-over): This was more hammering what they were believing than teaching us about the Quran
because it does not seem to lose the Quran, we didn't even have the Quran. They did not want to give us a Quran.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR (voice-over): Plus a new dawn for Cuba? We speak to the U.S. official charged with bridging 50 years of hostility.
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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the special weekend edition of our program, where we look back at two of the top stories. I'm
Christiane Amanpour.
And this past week, the worst fears of the Jordanian and Japanese people were realized when ISIS posted horrendous videos of how they
brutally killed hostages from both nations. This after days pretending to negotiate their release because, Jordan now believes, their pilot had, in
fact, been killed a month ago.
Last weekend ISIS beheaded the Japanese journalist, Kenji Goto.
Now the Jordanian response was rapid. The prisoner that ISIS was demanding be released, Sajida al-Rishawi, has now been executed and
Jordanian jets are now stepping up their airstrikes against ISIS in Syria.
As news of the pilot's fiery execution became public, we spoke to one of the one of the few people with first-hand experience of ISIS and its
mentality. My long-time colleague, French journalist, Didier Francois, who was abducted by the terrorists in Syria more than a year ago. He, along
with three other French journalists, were eventually freed after 10 months in captivity. And Didier joined me for his first television interview
right here in the studio.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Didier Francois, welcome to the program.
FRANCOIS: Hello.
AMANPOUR: How must you be thanking your lucky stars or whatever intervened to get you freed before ISIS' killing spree of their hostages,
before they started slitting the throats?
FRANCOIS: Yes. We were lucky, the all-French group was lucky. The continental Europeans were lucky, because all of us have been released.
Yet I'm not sure that there will be a possibility for getting us released now especially with France involved in the coalition and bombing
in Iraq (ph).
AMANPOUR: Let's go back to the beginning of your story.
How do you know that you were held by ISIS?
FRANCOIS: Oh, that's very easy.
(LAUGHTER)
FRANCOIS: They don't -- they don't hide it. I mean, they were very, very clear about it, very frank about it. Plus they are trying to frighten
you, do you know who we are? It's thought that like we are Al Qaeda but not really Al Qaeda. We are ISIS. We are a state. We're the Islamic
State.
They are claiming what they are.
AMANPOUR: How did they treat you?
FRANCOIS: We were detained in eight different places because we moved --
AMANPOUR: They moved you around to eight different places?
FRANCOIS: Yes. But we always stayed in Syria, always with ISIS. There was no other group catching us or setting us. It was ISIS from day
one.
We could hear the Syrian prisoners in the first places where we were detained -- in the Aleppo hospital, for instance -- they were -- we were in
a room but there were also some Syrian and Iraqi prisoners there, local people who were detained for whatever reasons you could say; they smoked or
because the girls were not wearing the proper --
AMANPOUR: Veil.
FRANCOIS: -- veil or whatever.
And they were beaten and tortured. And we could hear them behind the doors. We could see some of them in the corridors when we were taken to
the toilets, because we had two (INAUDIBLE) toilets. And we could see some people lying in their blood.
There were some rooms in which torture was taking place every night and sometimes we were put into those rooms. And you could see the chains
hanging or the ropes hanging or the iron bars and things.
So yes. And plus we had interrogations.
AMANPOUR: So you were constantly threatened; you could see what was happening to others, the torture and the barbarity.
FRANCOIS: But we were -- we were not treated that way --
AMANPOUR: You were not tortured.
FRANCOIS: -- no, we got a beating. It was hard and it was not --
AMANPOUR: What exactly happened to you?
I know everybody tries to play down what happened.
But were you beaten up?
FRANCOIS: Yes, of course, we were beaten up. But it was not every day.
Look, I mean, it's hard enough. You don't have to overplay it. It's hard enough to lose your freedom. It's hard enough to be in the hands of
people who you know are killing hundreds and thousands of local Syrians, Iraqis, Libyans, Tunisians, can put bombs in our countries.
They use violence as a way of ruling. They want to rule the prisons the way they want to rule the organizations, they always want to rule the
world by terrorizing you. But they don't use it all the time.
It's hard enough because I spent 10 months and a half and it's really long without a book, without anything but plus the problem is that the
guards who are always jumpy.
So one day --
AMANPOUR: The guards are always freaking out?
FRANCOIS: -- freaking out -- one day, they will come and give you a sweet for whatever reason. Two hours later, he come and beat you up. And
that's what makes it difficult. I mean, you never know on which foot I mean to stand and which foot you are mean to stand.
AMANPOUR: Did you think you were going to lose your life?
Did you ever think you were going to be free?
FRANCOIS: Well, basically what I knew is what my government and my country will do everything it can to free me. Now they are not responsible
for the fact that I was caught. I was detained.
And it was a decision of my captors. They are the ones to blame. So my government will do everything they can. But they were not bound to
succeed; if they decided to kill us, they would have killed us. And they have killed many people.
AMANPOUR: Do you know how you were freed?
Do you know whether money was paid for you, what kind of negotiations?
FRANCOIS: It's never only a question of money. If it was only money, let's have plenty of money. I mean, this -- I read this in the press all
the time, about the money, the amounts; utterly ridiculous. Really, that's not the way it works.
Don't forget, I mean, we might disagree with those people and we do disagree with hardly -- badly with those people. But Baghdadi is not a
crazy --
AMANPOUR: This is the head of ISIS.
FRANCOIS: Voila.
AMANPOUR: Abu Bakr --
FRANCOIS: -- Baghdadi, he's an Iraqi. He's a leader and he has a policy. He has a strategy. He always tries to push the Sunni tribes, the
Bedouins, to fight against the Shia or the Yazidi or the Christians.
He always try to play communities one against the other. That's how he survives. That's how he recruits. I mean, he's using, of course, those
young guys coming from Europe or for all over the place. But it's only one part of his organization.
The strongest part of his organization are the tribes, the local Sunni tribes, who are actually following him for political reasons. So he's
making politics.
AMANPOUR: I want to talk about some of your other co-prisoners like James Foley.
But first I want to pick up on what you're talking about, because obviously we all focus on the Western jihadis who are going over.
You've just said that the local tribes, those are the jihadis that are most important.
But I want to ask you about these Westerners, people like Jihadi John, who's been seen in these videos, knife to the throat, people believe that
he's the one who's committed the executions. He's clearly English of some sort.
Did you ever meet him?
FRANCOIS: Yes, of course.
AMANPOUR: What was he like?
FRANCOIS: Well, you can see on the video, he's not somebody you'd like to have to deal with.
AMANPOUR: Was he your guard?
FRANCOIS: He was one of them, yes.
AMANPOUR: And did he threaten you?
FRANCOIS: Of course he did.
AMANPOUR: Some have said --
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: -- some fellow captives have said that the Brits were the most appallingly brutal.
FRANCOIS: All of them had a way of running the prison or the captives and to put them under our thumbs, OK?
AMANPOUR: Put you under their thumbs?
FRANCOIS: Yes, that's what they want. They want you to be under their thumbs, that's all. And so basically they want you to give away your
freedom, your freedom of -- your will and you -- they want you to accept, to be under the orders and on everything. They don't like when you start
to negotiate, speak, ask, demand. They don't like it, especially not the Beatles, OK?
AMANPOUR: The Beatles? Let's be clear: it's the name that was given to the four Brits.
FRANCOIS: Yes, because we didn't know their names so we are calling them the Beatles (INAUDIBLE) because there were three, basically --
AMANPOUR: Three?
FRANCOIS: -- three of them were --
AMANPOUR: So John, Paul, George, Ringo?
FRANCOIS: Oh, voila. That was -- that was -- that was the nicknames.
But so they were harsher in their violence. And but at the same time they were feed us, because of course when you beat someone, then you have
to, yes, be in a better shape.
AMANPOUR: So you have to feed them up to get them strong and then beat them up again.
FRANCOIS: More food with them.
AMANPOUR: Obviously he first came to global prominence with that horrendous video with James Foley.
Do you believe he was the killer?
FRANCOIS: Yes, I do.
AMANPOUR: You do?
How did they treat James Foley?
James Foley was with you.
FRANCOIS: Yes, he was.
AMANPOUR: In the same cell.
FRANCOIS: Yes.
AMANPOUR: How did he get treated?
FRANCOIS: Well, again, that's what I'm saying. James was an amazing friend and hostage. I mean, he never gave up. He had a fantastic hearth.
AMANPOUR: Heart.
FRANCOIS: Heart; sorry. He was a -- he was great. He was a -- he was always trying to get something for the others, was asking for some
bread or for some -- what I'm asking for some bread, that's for a little piece of bread, an extra piece of bread, you know, when that was, one of
the Beatles, John, was asking do you need something, obviously didn't expect any of us to say, yes, we do need something.
The answer should be, no, everything's fine.
But James would say, yes, we need vegetables because, you know, we need it and of course he will have never be punished because that was the
word they were using, I mean, (INAUDIBLE), if you don't -- bad thing, whatever, (INAUDIBLE).
But I think they didn't like the fact that he was not broken. And that's the reason why he was getting more beatings because he was not
broken. He was still fighting in his way. He was still arguing. He was never giving way. And that's the reason why he was attracting this kind of
--
AMANPOUR: Harsher punishment.
FRANCOIS: -- exactly.
AMANPOUR: Did they ever talk to you, people like Jihadi John, the Beatles, some of the French jihadis, about their background, about why they
were there?
FRANCOIS: First, I was French and my English is not that good so and plus they were not too much into discussing with us as -- the Beatles -- so
they were doing some kind of dour predication (ph) -- you know, they were trying to teach us --
AMANPOUR: They were trying to teach you about the Quran?
FRANCOIS: Yes. But this was more hammering what they were believing than teaching us about the Quran because it does not seem to lose the
Quran, we didn't even have the Quran. They did not want to give us a Quran.
So it's not that -- it has nothing to do with Quran.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: So these are not religious fanatics.
FRANCOIS: No. It is -- it is what they believe and what they think and they try to hammer into you because that's what they trust. I mean, it
has nothing to do with Quran. It's their way of looking at things.
AMANPOUR: You came across two of the most notorious and the most wanted, Jihadi John, but also Mehdi Nemmouche was one of your guards.
Is that correct?
FRANCOIS: Yes, he was.
AMANPOUR: He obviously went on to kill people at the Jewish Museum in Belgium; he is under arrest now.
But then, when he was your guard, you say he was particularly awful and particularly vile.
FRANCOIS: Not with us, again, because he had orders. He told me at one stage I would like threaten you but my chief don't want it. So OK.
Might be lucky if negotiations failed. But at the end of -- but he was very violent with the Syrian prisoners.
And he was bragging that he was actually torturing them. Plus he was also bragging the fact that he will in the future -- that was at the time,
you know -- attack Jews. He was totally anti-Semitic, very strongly.
AMANPOUR: You continue to be a journalist.
FRANCOIS: Yes, of course.
AMANPOUR: You're on radio.
Would you go back?
FRANCOIS: I wouldn't in Iraq but I'm very comfortable. I've never been crazy before and we are -- and you know, Christiane, we are doing a
job. So we are taking risks depending on the importance of the news.
AMANPOUR: Calculated.
FRANCOIS: Calculating risks because of the news we want to (INAUDIBLE). At the time, remember it was -- I was captured in the 6th of
June or the 5th of June; broke out the fact that Bashar al-Assad was using chemical weapons against his own people. I think the risk I took to show
it was worth it, because that's my job as a journalist.
But because of the situation, I thought that I could take the risk. I was obviously wrong.
(LAUGHTER)
FRANCOIS: But that's what I did.
AMANPOUR: Didier Francois, thank God you're safe.
FRANCOIS: Yes, thank you. I'm very lucky.
AMANPOUR: Thank you.
FRANCOIS: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: An incredible story. And after a break, Cuba and the United States agree to restore diplomatic relations back in December and
eventually try to end the failed half-century embargo in a historic simultaneous announcement by Presidents Obama and Castro.
But now the hard part: trying to work out how to normalize relations after 50 years of hostility. We meet the American woman who has that job
next.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
It was a divide that many though they would never live to see bridged. But now that the United States and Cuba have agreed to try to end their
lingering Cold War, as America's woman in Havana, my next guest is tasked with the hefty mission of negotiating this restoration and fighting off the
considerable opposition among Cuban Americans in Congress.
Roberta Jacobson joined me from Washington, fresh from stormy Senate hearings after her historic mission to Cuba.
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AMANPOUR: Assistant Secretary Roberta Jacobson, welcome to the program.
ROBERTA JACOBSON, ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE: Thank you very much, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: So as an American diplomat to be the first such high-level diplomat to go to Cuba on an official mission since 1977, just how did it
feel?
JACOBSON: Well, Christiane, it felt good and historic in many ways. But I'll tell you that the thing that made it feel most historic was the
average Cuban Americans and Cubans who kept coming up to me and telling me that they had such high hopes and that they blessed me. That's when you
realize that it's all about people and that's when it felt most historic in some ways.
AMANPOUR: Well, one of the things that the whole world talks about, not to mention the American people, is this 50-year embargo which, I think,
everybody can agree has simply failed to do what it was intended to do.
The majority of American people want to see the trade embargo ended; about 66 percent want that to happen.
That's pretty unlikely in the short term or even the medium term, right, particularly with a Republican controlled Congress.
JACOBSON: Well, the president in his State of the Union message called for the debate on ending the embargo to begin in Congress. It's
obviously Congress' job to do that. It's a piece of legislation and there were hearings on Cuba this week that I testified at in both the Senate and
the House. And I think you could say they were lively on the subject of the embargo. There are views on both sides. But that's exactly the debate
that we have to have. We believe it has not worked to bring democracy and freedom and open markets to Cuba, to allow the Cuban people to make their
own choices.
AMANPOUR: Well, Congress is having a pretty feisty debate, as you obviously know; many Cuban American legislators don't like this at all, not
only in the Republican Party but in your party as well.
Here is Senator Robert Menendez at the Senate hearing that you were testifying.
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SEN. ROBERT MENENDEZ (D), N.J.: Eighteen months of secret negotiations produced a bad deal, a bad deal for the Cuban people. While
it may have been done with the best of intentions, in my view, we've compromised bedrock principles for virtually no concessions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Well, there you have it, no concessions from the Cubans, most particularly, I think right now, Congress wants to know whether you
will have full, proper agreement from the Cubans for all the kinds of things you need to have at an embassy, unrestricted travel, unrestricted
ability to talk to democracy activists, human rights activists in Cuba itself. You haven't got that assurance, have you?
JACOBSON: Well, we've just started the conversations, the first conversations in Havana were really to get everything out on the table. We
made clear to the Cuban government those things that we expected in a normal diplomatic relationship to act as we act in our embassies around the
world. And so that includes being able to travel around the country, being able to talk to all Cubans, including the human rights and democracy
activists and the dissidents, being able to get shipments of our goods and -- into the country, being able for people to approach our intersection and
soon-to-be, we hope, embassy without having to be screened by Cuban government officials.
All of that stuff is the way our operate -- embassies operate everywhere else in the world and the way other embassies operate in Cuba.
AMANPOUR: What do you say to critics who basically criticize the timing of the president's announcement, saying that you, the United States,
are giving the Cuban regime a lifeline just as it was beginning to feel the real effects of its primary benefactor, Venezuela, of the decline of their
financial ability?
JACOBSON: You know, Christiane, I think there's a couple of things. The one thing that I think you have to remember is that Cuba has been
through incredibly hard times before. And this notion that the Cubans would have been on their knees if we just waited a little bit longer, a 50-
year-old policy that didn't work, if we gave it a couple more years, it might have done the trick, I think is really not the case.
But in the end, this policy change is not a concession to Cuba or its government. It's not a gift to the Cuban government. One of the things
I've said is our embassies around the world are not gifts to governments. We're often quite irritating to governments. But they're a channel of
communication to both the government and the people. They're a way of getting business done.
And we think this is a much more effective way of supporting the Cuban people than we've had before.
AMANPOUR: You know, this really boils down to the hopes and dreams of a people beyond diplomatic relations between two hostile governments.
What can you say to the Cuban people who already are hearing their president say, hey, this is not going to affect our politics; it's not
going to affect our internal dynamic. It's not going to mean we're any more democratic than we were before this diplomatic engagement.
JACOBSON: I think what I say to all of the Cuban people is that this policy is designed to support you in whatever you want your future to be.
Governments are going to say things, both the U.S. government and the Cuban government. But in the end, we firmly believe that it is for the Cuban
people to decide what their futures are.
AMANPOUR: Secretary Jacobson, thank you very much.
JACOBSON: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And as we discussed, human rights and the rule of law in Cuba or in Syria and around the world, we take you back 800 years to the
document where some of these ideals were first written down: the Magna Carta. It remains a document for our times -- after a break.
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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine a world where a failed feudal peace treaty becomes a cornerstone of today's freedoms. Originally
intended to stop an English rebellion against King John in 1215, the Magna Carta, or the Great Charter, is where the alternative to government by
absolute power was born.
It's one of the most important documents in history and this year it celebrates its 800th anniversary. Soon after signing it into existence,
though, King John himself got the pope to ban the charter for eternity because he found its claim that, quote, "no one is above the law" so
repugnant.
It returned under a new king just 10 years later and it became the inspiration for democratic principles around the world, including the
United States' Constitution and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which are enshrined by the U.N.
Today, its revolutionary finding that, quote, "no free man shall be imprisoned without the lawful judgment of his equals," rings as loud and
true as ever.
And that's it for our program tonight. Remember you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and
Twitter. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.
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