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CNN NEWSROOM

Constant Thudding of Blasts Near Ukraine Town; U.S. Considers Arming Ukraine Forces; ISIS Claims Kayla Mueller Died in Airstrike; Legendary Coach Dean Smith Dies; Brian Williams to Skip Letterman Appearance; Former Hostage's Mom Speaking Out; Should U.S. Send Arms to Ukraine?

Aired February 8, 2015 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Also this top story, the parents of American hostage, Kayla Mueller, have reached out to ISIS and are asking for a response.

ISIS claiming that Mueller, an aid worker who was kidnapped in Syria back in 2013, was killed on Friday ISIS said in a Jordanian air strike killed her. While Jordanian officials say there's no such evidence. The U.S. also says there is no proof.

The 26-year-old's parents say they are hopeful that she is indeed still alive.

The mother of an American journalist beheaded by ISIS says the United States should do more to save American lives. Those Americans held hostage by ISIS. Diane Foley's son, James Foley, you know that name well, he was killed by ISIS last August. She says the unconfirmed claim that American Kayla Mueller is dead is a painful reminder of her own son's death.

But we begin with this. Really signs that a last ditch effort to try to end the bloody conflict in Ukraine may be falling apart. Just days before a crucial peace summit, Russia's Vladimir Putin is hinting he might not even show up. Putin is facing global pressure to withdraw pro-Russian separatists from Ukraine, and to end that conflict that has claimed more than 5,000 lives.

A face-to-face negotiation is tentatively set for Wednesday in Belarus, but Putin suggests he may not be there if what he calls key points are not settled.

For the people of eastern Ukraine, the politics and diplomatic maneuvering may seem far, far astray. They are losing loved ones in these explosions that we've heard live on our air from our reporters on the ground there. Their homes are being destroyed.

Our Nick Paton Walsh has been there throughout.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Poppy, we've heard the shelling hard every night we've been here and tonight is no exception. The constant thudding in that direction. The buildings not so far really from where we are standing. We saw today what damage has been inflicted in just the last 24 hours in which separatists say eight people lost their lives in the whole of Donetsk region. And just how many civilian homes have been hit by the shelling.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WALSH (voice-over): While this is the backdrop to peace talks, Donetsk is finding a deathly routine of picking up the pieces. Here, lived and died Vladimir, home alone when the shells struck. These fragments may have been meant to hit a separatist base nearby.

"Idiots," the man says.

Around these shops, a day earlier, shells landed, a woman died, two others wounded. Each lost dragging this self-declared republic further away from Ukraine.

(On camera): Quite so often in civilian neighborhoods like this, those shells land. And while both sides will continue to blame each other for firing them, the net effect is so often clear amongst the residents of Donetsk and it fuels the loathing they have for their government in Kiev.

(Voice-over): The way out towards the rest of Ukraine is complicated, so the Donetsk to Moscow bus this day is full, we're told.

She says, they're all fleeing, the shelling.

(On camera): Take a look at what one stray shell did to one warm happy family life here.

(INAUDIBLE) shows us where it landed in the bathroom. Shrapnel through windows and walls, in to the girls' bedroom, wounding their mother, Yana (ph), in the kitchen. Nobody died here, but childhood's innocence were surely lost.

"Why are they destroying us," he says. "Why is the west supporting the Kiev government?"

The 3-year-old (INAUDIBLE), the family's sheep dog was killed.

These are private homes, he says, what are we meant to do, wait for them to kill us and not take up arms? We're all Slavs. Why are we fighting?

(INAUDIBLE) said he never wanted to fight in the war, but is now thinking about it.

The violence here fomenting the Kremlin's narrative, this is a NATO backed war on ethnic Russians. With each torn home greater the challenge of making Ukraine whole again.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALSH: Now, Poppy, the consistent fear amongst many here is we don't have a date for potential peace talks on Wednesday. That could be a meeting potentially where a cease fire could be agreed if, according to diplomats, the priority work goes well and we do manage to see the Russian, Ukrainian, French and German leaders sit down together in the Belarus city of Minsk.

But that is a tight window in which both sides may choose to try and improve their position on the battlefield here. We know the separatists don't have all the territory that they want so there are many worry we could see an escalation in the violence here in the days ahead -- Poppy.

HARLOW: Nick Paton Walsh, incredible reporting on this conflict throughout. Thank you, Nick.

The president, President Obama, weighing a decision on whether or not to send arms to Ukrainian forces, specifically defensive weaponry, one woman crucial in this decision-making, German Chancellor Angela Merkel. She is due to arrive in Washington tonight, and she'll meet with President Obama tomorrow.

And she has said that arming Ukraine could trigger a dangerous escalation. And Russia may respond by also upping the ante with more force and sending the Russian Air Force into Ukraine.

Joining me now to discuss, we have Michael Bociurkiw, he's spokesperson with Europe's Special Monitoring Mission in Ukraine. Also joining me Congressman Adam Schiff, Ranking Member of the House Intelligence Committee.

Thank you both for being here.

And Congressman, let me begin with you. I'd like your reaction to what Angela Merkel has said, and interestingly what has been sort of reflected in the comments of Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, warning that if Washington does arm Ukraine with the kind of defensive weapons you have said you would like to see, then that could threaten a peaceful agreement.

Do you think it is rhetoric? Or do you think that is a real threat?

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D), RANKING MEMBER, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Well, the problem is not getting an agreement with the Russians, it's getting the Russian to keep their agreement. We already had a Minsk agreement, now we're going to have another negotiation in Minsk, and I hope it's successful. But I don't think that the Russians are going to back down from this continued aggression unless the costs are increased. And one way of increasing those costs is to help Ukrainians defend themselves.

No one is suggesting that the Ukrainians can defeat Russia in a war and I hope it doesn't come into a full-fledged war. But they can raise the cost where they continue invasion of Ukraine's sovereignty and I think regrettably that's going to be necessary. We have tried sanctions alone. We have been patient for months and months as Russia has continued to supply not only troops, but heavy equipment like tanks. At a certain point I think we need to step up to help Ukraine defend itself. HARLOW: So you bring up the word war. And Michael, to you, you know,

a lot of the reporting that I have read is that many of the civilians on the ground in eastern Ukraine and Donetsk and the surrounding area say, why doesn't President Poroshenko call this war? Because that is how we are feeling.

What are you seeing on the ground?

MICHAEL BOCIURKIW, SPOKESMAN, OSCE SPECIAL MONITORING MISSION TO UKRAINE: Good to be back with you, Poppy. Well, clearly the humanitarian situation is dire. Of course Nick Paton Walsh's reports have really underlined that, as have had other reporters.

We're -- the predicament we're seeing right now is there's wholehearted attempts to evacuate people out of heavily shelled cities such as Debaltseve. There was an attempt made on Friday, a few hundred civilians did get out of there. Our monitors were on the ground, as they usually are, to monitor the situation, and yet, Poppy, this underlines how fragile these cease-fires can be. Despite agreement from all sides, there's outgoing shelling most of the time when our monitors were there and most of the time when these civilians were moving.

It's a very -- it's beginning to put a real strain also on other parts of the country. Don't forget that the number of IDPs, internally displaced people, right now in Ukraine is reaching around one million. This includes people who fled Crimea many, many months ago. And many months ago, Poppy, our mission recorded that those organizations, those volunteer organizations taking -- looking after these IDPs were already under strain way back then. So now you have this new wave coming out and it's very, very different indeed to help them all.

HARLOW: Congressman, to you, when you think about action from the West, from the U.S. specifically, if indeed it does make the decision to provide these arms to Ukraine, do you believe that it has been too slow to respond? Especially given all of the focus that the United States frankly has had to have on fighting ISIS?

SCHIFF: I do think we have been too slow to respond, and we certainly have other commitments and other challenges around the world. But we have to be able to confront the threats to our security and that of our allies wherever they are.

So I think we should have taken the step of providing military support earlier. I really do believe there's only one thing that Putin respects and that's a strong response and strength and weakness, I think, invites further aggression and this is not only about Ukraine, although it's very important to Ukraine. This is also about Ukraine's neighbors and whether Russia will feel it has the right and it has the political ability and the military ability of invading its neighbors to so-called protect ethnic Russians.

That's a very expansive doctrine with really no limits. So I think it's vitally important that the West show resolve here and this is a way that we can do it. We tried first sanctions only, it hasn't been successful. HARLOW: Right.

SCHIFF: And I think this is regrettably going to be necessary.

HARLOW: Well, interestingly, even when the sanctions have been up we've seen Vladimir Putin's approval rating, despite the crumbling economy just go up and up and up. It is in the 80s, 80, you know, above 80 percent now approval rating from his own people.

To you, Michael, is there talks on the ground there among Ukrainians about sanctions and whether they believe any increase in sanctions either from Europe or from the United States would work because some have suggested, you know, Europe should stop, for example, buying its crude oil and gas from Russia and that that would maybe make a further dent.

BOCIURKIW: Well, Poppy, we've been here on the ground about a year, almost a year now. We have 400 monitors here, about two-thirds of them are in the east. But even here on Kiev, what you hear from colleagues, from friends and others, is kind of prevailing sense of doom, what had happened in the past 48 hours or so, the hryvnia, the local currency, has collapsed a lot.

And in a country where many people, for example, have their car loans and housing loans denominated in U.S. dollars or euros, that fall in the local currency makes things very, very difficult. You also notice a slowdown in commerce. We've reported on that. Fewer people going out at night, so the evening news, or actually all day news is full of reports from the -- from the front line.

And also don't forget, Poppy, that the so-called mobilization that the Ukrainian government announced, the second mobilization, is, you know, hitting home to a lot of families throughout Ukraine because they're having to send their sons to the front line.

HARLOW: Right.

BOCIURKIW: Yes, so.

HARLOW: Michael, thank you for the work you and your team on the ground do there, monitoring this, bringing it to us. We appreciate it.

Congressman, we appreciate your time as well. Stay with us. You'll join us later for a discussion on ISIS.

And to the Middle East now, and the latest on ISIS' claims that the American hostage Kayla Mueller was killed on a Jordanian air strike on Friday, but the terrorist organization has shown absolutely no proof, and experts have serious doubts, both Jordanians government officials and U.S. government officials.

Our Kyung Lah is Mueller's hometown of Prescott, Arizona, to see how people there are reacting.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) KYUNG LAH, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The signs of anguish remain quiet but palpable in Prescott, Arizona, an idyllic town oceans away from the savagery of Syria.

Twenty-six-year-old Kayla Mueller, an ISIS hostage for more than a year, but to those who know her in Prescott, even as a teenager, she was a defender of social justice especially for those who cannot fight.

Northern Arizona professor Carol Thompson taught, advised and then befriended Mueller.

CAROL THOMPSON, KAYLA MUELLER'S FORMER PROFESSOR: She profoundly understood that peace will not come without justice. And it's useless to have peace without justice.

LAH (on camera): Professor Thompson teaches here in Arizona. We spoke by telephone because she is on sabbatical in Zimbabwe helping farmers. Kayla Mueller thought she might follow Thompson's footsteps and work in Africa.

(Voice-over): But it's this conflict, Syria, and its nearly four million refugees that captured her heart. She posted this video supporting refugees in 2011.

KAYLA MUELLER, AID WORKER IN SYRIA: I am in solidarity with the Syrian people. I reject the brutality and killing that the Syrian authorities are

committing against the Syrian people.

LAH: By the following years, she would make her first trip to the Syrian-Turkish border. Professor Thompson says they spoke often and at length about social justice versus personal risk.

THOMPSON: Kayla went very much beyond me, my -- you know, her professor, to join in the suffering. And yes, she knew very profoundly the risks of that. And that was her choice.

LAH: A choice friends say her parents supported. This weekend they remained surrounded by spiritual counsel, family and friends, as they have since her capture. Awaiting the truth about their daughter.

Kyung Lah, CNN, Prescott, Arizona.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Kyung thank you for that.

And a big question now, will the case of Kayla Mueller and other ISIS hostages change the way that this country deals with Americans held hostage overseas?

Also the U.S. military may -- big caveat -- may recommend sending ground troops to Iraq, but will Congress and the president agree? We'll discuss, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: We've been reporting on the story of Kayla Mueller, the American aid worker who ISIS claims was killed this week in a Jordanian air strike.

Let's bring in Congressman Adam Schiff joining us, Democratic congressman from California, he is a Ranking Member of the House Intelligence Committee.

So, Congressman, first of all, you and also many experts, we should say, the Jordanian government, U.S. intelligence, are very, very skeptical about this claim, the Jordanian is saying this is pure, you know, PR tactics by ISIS to try to throw the blame on Jordan.

What can you tell us as ranking member of the Intelligence Committee in terms of what we know about this claim?

SCHIFF: Poppy, we're doing everything we can to find out whether she is still alive. Obviously we hope and pray that she is, but it's very difficult to determine. I don't give the ISIS credit any validity whatsoever. It's strange credulity to me to suspect that they could tell a Jordanian plane from an American one, and it's just too convenient that she would be the only person in this building, not even guarded by captors, and no one ISIS members were injured according to their claim.

So I don't buy that for a minute. The question is, is she still alive?

HARLOW: Right.

SCHIFF: Is this something that they -- really made it for propaganda purposes, having killed her earlier? Or are they keeping her alive for other purposes? We obviously hope that she's still alive.

HARLOW: When it comes to the broader fight against ISIS, look, John McCain saying on our air this week, we are not winning, we are losing, we need to do more. Some of your colleagues, Republican Senator Ted Chris, saying the U.S. should directly arm the Kurdish fighters, the Peshmerga force, which has been frankly quite effective in this fight.

Listen to what he said and I want your reaction on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: We met today with the president of Kurdistan, and the Kurds on the ground are fantastic fighter, the Peshmerga have been our allies, they've been our friends, and they're actually fighting every day to stop ISIS.

Now, Dana, what makes no sense whatsoever is the Obama administration is refusing to directly arm the Kurds. We need to arm the Kurds now because they are our boots on the ground.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Is he right, Congressman?

SCHIFF: I think we do need to step up our support for the Kurds. We have tried to work through the Iraqi government to do that because it's very sensitive, we don't want to see a situation where the central government is now fighting the Kurds because the Kurds are trying to break away.

So -- trying to arm them as best we can and keep that country together and keep it united in the fight against ISIS, but I think the Iraqi government isn't sufficiently allowing the arms to flow to the Kurds, then we may need to pursue very directly means of making sure that they can carry on this fight.

HARLOW: Are you concerned we haven't seen that from the administration? Are you talking to them about this?

SCHIFF: You know, we are talking to the administration. I am concerned that we need to get material more quickly to the Iraqi forces, as well as the Kurds. But we are making progress in Iraq, we are making progress militarily. We have stopped ISIS' momentum on the ground. The Kurdish forces and Iraqi forces have reclaimed some of the ISIS territory.

I'm actually more concerned about the lack of political progress in Iraq and they have to go hand in hand. I'm very concerned about allegations that there was a massacre of Sunnis when a Sunni village was liberated from ISIS. A massacre by a Shia militia while Iraqi troops stood by and watched.

If that's true, that's a tremendous setback. We need those Sunnis to be pulled away from ISIS. And that means they need to feel that they're protected and won't become victimized by the Shia militias based out of Iran.

HARLOW: Very quickly, sir, before we have to go. Do you agree with John McCain's assessment that we are losing against ISIS?

SCHIFF: I don't think we've made any progress against ISIS in Syria, and I think that's a very fair criticism. Syria is very tough. By necessity, though, I think we're going to have to defeat ISIS in Iraq first. I think we are making process. It's a lot slower that we'd like, but I don't think that's mean we ought to rush in with American combat troops and get a lot of Americans killed.

HARLOW: All right.

SCHIFF: But I'm not sure it would do much good at this point.

HARLOW: Congressman, appreciate your time. Thanks for coming on the program.

SCHIFF: Thanks, Poppy.

HARLOW: Still to come, the face of NBC News will not be seen in his anchor chair at least for the next few days. Brian Williams removing himself from that position temporarily while people wonder if really they can trust him again.

Will he be back? The newsman's credibility on the line. We'll talk about it next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: All right. Here it comes again. Storm after storm and the snowfall records have already been smashed. Many folks in Boston, they're just sick of it. What is being called a long-duration event is settling over the city right now. It may dump 20 more inches of fresh snow on Boston and also northeast Massachusetts, and that includes an announcement, another one, from the mayor of Boston saying no school tomorrow or on Tuesday.

Tom Sater joins us from the severe weather center.

This is really testing the patience of many people, Tom.

TOM SATER, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Yes, Poppy, we've got to quit meeting like this. The third straight week, third time a snow machine to drop one to two feet, and they've all been different. This is not a nor'easter, it's not moving up the coast with blizzard conditions, but we have a frontal system that has dropped far enough to the south, locking the cold air. But it's also bringing moisture in from the Atlantic.

So this says -- you mentioned a long duration event because it is elongated pattern that will continue to snow fall as it intensifies in Boston and down in Connecticut, across upstate New York, northern Pennsylvania tonight, but really throughout the day tomorrow into tomorrow night.

It may not be until Tuesday morning that the system finally slides through. The good news for New York and the residents there, if you see any snow at all, maybe a dusting to an inch on the back edge, but tomorrow morning, rush hour, we could be really looking at a freezing rain event that could sustain itself for a few hours hopefully mixing into some warm air and change it to rain.

But this is a clipper system. Typically these clippers fast-moving, come in from Canada, dropped three to six inches. But not this one. And it looks like the one to two feet is going to be in the same locations that had been digging out. Think of all the cities and municipalities that snow budgets are now capped out, overnight into the hours of, you know, manpower, but from Syracuse, Albany, Providence, up towards Portland, and yes, this means one to two feet in the Boston area, kids are going to be in school at least until July if this keeps up, Poppy.

HARLOW: Wow. You know, and the mayor of Boston saying, deal with the budget later, we've got to get these roads cleared.

SATER: Yes.

HARLOW: That's exactly what they have to do. SATER: And they're told to get their cars off the road. They're

going to start towing and ticketing very soon so you've got at least a couple of minutes.

HARLOW: Yes. Absolutely.

Tom Sater, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Also this, one of the greatest coaches in the history of college basketball has died. Longtime head coach Dean Smith passed away this morning after a battle with a long illness. He was 83 years old. In the words of President Obama, America lost not just a coaching legend, but a gentleman and a citizen.

CNN's Fredericka Whitfield has more on Dean Smith's influence both on and off the court.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR, NEWSROOM (voice-over): Dean Smith's 36-year coaching career at North Carolina will likely stand forever as one of the most distinguished in the history of college basketball. At his retirement, he won a then record 879 games, 65 of them in NCAA tournament play, another record. His Tar Heels won two national championships and made 11 trips to the final four.

But perhaps Smith's most astonishing accomplishment was that his teams won 20 or more games 27 years in a row.

DEAN SMITH, HEAD COACH, UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA: We have been lucky the type of young men and student athletes at the University of North Carolina.

WHITFIELD: Smith's influence on the game was easily as great as his statistical achievements. His innovations include team huddles at the foul line, and the four quarters offense which led to the introduction of the shot clock in college basketball in 1985.

Former UCLA coaching legend John Wooden once said of Smith, he's the best teacher of basketball I have ever seen.

SMITH: I'm here only because of my players, I think that's obvious.

WHITFIELD: Character and class, words often used to describe Smith, were hallmarks of the man's entire program. On the court, he taught unselfish play, team work and tenacious defense. Not surprisingly, dozens of Smith's former players went on to careers in the NBA, including Michael Jordan, perhaps the greatest player of all time.

In fact it was said that Smith was the only man who could hold Jordan to under 20 points a game because of his emphasis on team play.

MICHAEL JORDAN, FORMER UNC PLAYER: He took me through the basics, just studying hard and understanding more about people, being respectful, being appreciative of the things that were given to me. And you know, from that day on, I've kind of carried that along. WHITFIELD: But for most of Smith's players, the lessons he taught

went well beyond basketball. Ninety-seven percent of Smith's lettermen received a degree. Smith retired from North Carolina before the 1997 season.

He'll be remembered not only as one of the college basketball's winningest coaches, but also one of the best men to ever teach the game.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: All right. We have new developments to report in the saga involving NBC News anchor Brian Williams.

Our senior media correspondent Brian Stelter joins me on the phone.

Brian, what is the latest?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT (via phone): Well, there was talk up until this afternoon, Poppy, of Brian Williams still keeping his date with David Letterman. He was supposed to be on the "Late Show with Davie Letterman" this coming Thursday, but just a few minutes ago an NBC source confirmed that he's actually backing out of that appearance with David Letterman.

That was the only scheduled TV appearance Brian Williams has coming up, so this takes away the only opportunity that was on the calendar for him to publicly address all of these swirling questions, as you put it, the saga that's going on about his exaggerations involving that Iraq war mission in 2003.

You know, as yesterday he announced he's taking a leave of absence, he's going to leave his own newscast for at least several days. The decision of NBC in a Brian Williams' level was basically how can he go on another network's late-night talk show at a time when he's not going on his own newscast? So for now anyway, he'll be skipping Letterman.

HARLOW: Hey, Brian, I'm interested in what you think of that call. Was it the right call? And also, B, there have been -- I certainly thought, you know, maybe he sits down and does a tough interview with another journalist about this.

STELTER: I think a lot of people in the journalism industry are waiting for that moment to happen. I think that was the near unanimous conclusion on my program "RELIABLE SOURCES" this morning. I've heard it on CNN there this afternoon as well. And I'm hearing it from columnist and bloggers and writers all over the place, that Brian Williams has to come out and tell his side of the story and explain what is going on, because the silence is not helping him at this point.

I think he probably agrees with that, but the -- the network is trying to go through all of its fact-checking motions first. The sense I get is that he would like to talk. The question is whether it would help him or hurt him to talk and whether the network is going to let him do that at this point. Because, you know, here's the frank and uncomfortable reality. NBC has to think about its own credibility at this point as well as Brian Williams'.

HARLOW: Very good point, Brian Stelter. Thanks for breaking the news. Bringing it to us here. We appreciate it.

STELTER: Thanks.

HARLOW: Much more of this -- Brian's reporting on CNNmoney.com.

Let's talk now with two CNN political commentators about this. Marc Lamont Hill joins me now, also Ben Ferguson joins me on the phone.

Guys, I want your reaction. Let me start with you, Ben. Your reaction to Maureen Dowd's column in "New York Times" this morning, writing about this. One quote stood out to me. "The Nightly News anchors are not figures of authority. They are part of the entertainment branding and cross-promotion business."

Look, Brian Williams is someone with a fantastic sense of humor, whom many times went on the late-night talk shows, who went on "30 Rock," who is a personality outside of delivering the "Nightly News."

Do you agree with Maureen Dowd's assessment?

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, I think it's actually pretty laughable. Yes, he's dynamic, and you want your main news guy to be dynamic because the world of media has changed. Social media has changed. You know, going on these talk shows makes your -- you more popular in branding. But even when he's on "Letterman," he would not give his personal opinion about certain news issues.

And it was -- it was constantly a joke between him and Letterman, because he was an official serious news guy. So you can't now all of a sudden say well, his credibility really doesn't matter because he's more of an entertainer. He's more of a guy that, you know, does all these other things.

Look, if you're going on there, and your whole entire shtick every time is I'm not going to give my personal opinion because I'm a hard news guys, you can't now all of a sudden play it the other way. I mean, he is the hard news guy. He is the face of NBC News, and he's in real trouble.

HARLOW: Marc, what is your take on that?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think that -- I agree with Ben in general. I do think sometimes those of us who are in the media operate within a kind of inside baseball perspective. You know, things that would be a breach of journalistic ethics and certainly our eyebrow raising don't necessarily resonate with the American people, but this is something the American people can completely understand.

This isn't some abstract sourcing thing. This isn't a statistic that's a little bit off. He is pretending to be places that he wasn't. And when you start to talk about allegedly, when you talk about war, and you start to talk about soldiers, who Americans have very sentimental attachments to, this is something that will make everyday viewers not trust you. And if we can't trust you, we can't have you as our news guy.

So I understand what Maureen Dowd is saying, in general, that these are journalistic figures who are also entertainment figures, but in this particular case with this particular example, it's not going to fly.

HARLOW: Marc, it sounds like you're saying you don't think he should have the anchor chair again. Is that what you're saying?

HILL: It would -- it would be tough.

FERGUSON: I think it's -- it's --

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Go to Marc and then --

FERGUSON: It would be tough and also it's a bigger issue -- sorry, go ahead.

HILL: No, no, I -- I think it's going to be tough. I mean, should isn't the issue. I believe in second chances. I believe that people have every right to make a mistake and get a second chance. I think what we need to do, though, is answer two things. One, we need to subject all of his work to scrutiny and see if his -- would this be the second chance, would this be the 15th chance?

And we also have to ask questions of all the other NBC folks who watched him tell the stories on multiple occasions who were there when it happened and didn't correct it or didn't make any attempt to address the ethical breach. And then the second thing is, we have to ask if the audience still trust him. Because even though he may deserve a second chance in the abstract sense, if the audience doesn't trust him, you can't have him on the air.

HARLOW: Ben, what do you think? I mean, is there -- you know, do his years of reporting and, you know, really -- you know, incredible reporting, that we cannot discount, do those stand for anything?

FERGUSON: Well, I mean, the biggest issue is, does your audience trust you? Is he too big to fail? I think, you know, if you look at NBC, and I'm sure they don't really want to take him off the air. They have invested an incredible amount into him and into a product. And honestly he was a great product until the reality of these things came out.

But if you watch "The Nightly News" every night and you trust him as your news guy, your news source, as almost a member of your family, and there is a connection between nightly news anchors and the people that watch every night, is that relationship that's very one sided. But if you feel like that all of a sudden who you watch every night,

is a staple of your life at dinnertime or after dinner, has been lying to you or is a fraud, I think that ratings ultimately will decide on this when there may be a lot of people that say, I just can't watch you anymore.

HILL: Absolutely.

HARLOW: All right. Ben and Marc, thanks for weighing in on this. Don't go anywhere.

Quick break. Coming up on the other side, we're going to switch gears and talk about the mother of a U.S. hostage held by ISIS -- who is formerly held by ISIS. She is now speaking out. Hear why she says the U.S. government has done too little to save Americans being held overseas.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Well, the unconfirmed claims by ISIS that American hostage Kayla Mueller is dead are adding to the debate in this country over how America deals with terrorists that are holding our citizens hostage.

Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill, join me again.

So, guys, the American James Foley, he was killed by ISIS back in August after being held hostage. We know now along with Kayla Mueller and other this weekend his mother spoke to ABC.

Listen to what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DIANA FOLEY, SON JAMES FOLEY KILLED BY ISIS: Kayla, along with our son and others, were held for nearly two years. And there were many opportunities along the way, and yet nothing was done to save our young Americans.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: All right. So, Ben, to you first. Granted, we likely don't know everything the U.S. government did. A lot of this is often classified.

FERGUSON: Sure.

HARLOW: And we never find out and we do know there was a rescue attempt, but this is a grieving mother, and look at the situation that Kayla's parents are in right now.

Do you think the U.S. government should be doing more, considering more options?

FERGUSON: I think obviously anytime you have an American that's taken hostage, the American government is going to work hard. I think the biggest issue is the lack of communication with the families. I mean, two years, sometimes you become a number on a page and you know, how often are Americans taken hostage? Thank goodness not very often in the world as of now.

And so I would hope that we would have a hostage team and you are their number one priority, whether it'd be six weeks, six months, two years or 10 years where you have up to date every single day with a significant person who is directly in contact with you, working your case. Because that's what these families deserve. And I think if we did that, it would make a lot of people rest easier, say, look, we are working on this. This is a priority.

We may not be able to tell you everything we're doing, but we are working on this, and here's everything we know today even if it's no news, you are a top priority. And I think we owe that to families.

HARLOW: So, Marc, to you, the U.S. government, we know right now that it is reviewing its policy on how we deal with families that have hostages overseas. A lot of these families want to be able to negotiate, want to be able to try to get money, collect donations to help pay off this ransom because it has worked in the past days for France. But then others say look, because the U.S. does not pay ransoms, Americans are less likely to be taken hostage.

Where do you fall on that argument?

HILL: It's a tough thing. And I want to be clear. Just -- and I agree that -- with Ben that the United States government can do more to interface with families. But I don't want to accept the idea that we haven't been doing anything or that very little has been done to support families or to support to free hostages under President Obama, under President Bush, I would imagine under President Clinton, and George H. W. Bush, and Reagan, all the way back.

We've always had a concerted effort to return American hostages, whether it's because of American interests or it's because of genuine feeling. That might be a different conversation. But I think we've always done that. And sometimes silence doesn't mean that nothing is happening.

HARLOW: Right.

HILL: That said, I think it's really important for us to understand the reason why we don't negotiate in these situations. One, it creates a market for capturing Americans.

You're right. What you said is exactly right.

FERGUSON: Absolutely.

HILL: European citizens are far more likely to be captured because they're far more likely to be recovered with ransoms.

FERGUSON: They get paid.

HILL: So that -- you're right. And so the last thing I want to do is to have -- is create a new market for ISIS whose expansion and financial might often comes from hostages. I think that's a very dangerous precedent.

HARLOW: Understood. Let me ask you this, Ben.

FERGUSON: You can't change that policy.

HARLOW: Let me ask you this, Ben.

FERGUSON: Sure.

HARLOW: Peter Bergen, our -- one of our national security experts here, wrote a really interesting op-ed recently where he said what about considering the idea of allowing families that do not agree with U.S. policy, that do want to try to pay the terrorists to get their loved ones back to accept private donations, so nothing that would be done through the government.

Should that even be considered?

FERGUSON: No, because as soon as you open that door, the terrorists are not going to distinguish between private funds and government funds and then you have an incredibly gray area. You have to have a crystal clear policy.

I mean, I'll be -- I'll be completely honest, I understand why every family would want to raise money and funds and go pay to get someone back, but you cannot set that precedence one time. Because once you do American lives become worth an incredible amount of cash and you're going to have far more people's lives be put at risk and be taken and maybe killed or have ransom and who knows what can happen, whether it'd be with, you know, people that are just doing it for the money or people that are doing it like ISIS for -- you know, political reasons as well. You just cannot have that precedent. You don't even need to open the door to it.

HARLOW: All right, gentlemen, stick around, quick break. On the other side, we're going to talk about the president, the policies of this White House with Ukraine. What should be done? That's next.

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HARLOW: All right. Calls from some in Congress are getting louder for the United States to send lethal defense arms to Ukraine. President Obama right now weighing a tough choice. Should he, this country, wade deeper into a clash with Russia, Vladimir Putin, or let Europe try to do what it can to end this bloody conflict?

Keep in mind, this conflict has claimed more than 5,000 lives. Vice President Joe Biden sending a firm message to Putin this weekend, get out of Ukraine now. One Republican lawmaker, though, saying this.

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