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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Two University of Oklahoma SAE Fraternity Members Expelled; Hillary Clinton Talks About E-Mailing Habits; Miles O'Brien Opens Up About Losing His Arm
Aired March 10, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening. We begin tonight with breaking news. The University of Oklahoma now minus two students in the fraternity they belonged to.
Sigma Alpha Epsilon is gone. Two members who appear to be leading the chant about hanging black men from trees, they have been expelled. And just moments ago, one of the expelled students, Parker Rice, issued a statement to the "Dallas Morning News." It reads in part, "I am deeply sorry for what I did Saturday night. It was wrong and reckless. I made a horrible mistake by joining in the singing and encouraging others to do the same. On Monday, I withdrew from the university. And sadly, this moment, our family is not able to be in our home because threatening calls as well as frightening talk on social media."
The family of one frat brother on the video came forward. In just about half an hour, a rally is planned on campus at the former SAE house.
But first, Miguel Marquez has the latest.
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Parker Rice, 19-year- old freshman, expelled from the University of Oklahoma has pretty much vanished.
At his home in Dallas, no sign of him nor his family. He and members of the SAE fraternity clearly avoiding publicity after the video was leaked to the school newspaper and ricocheting around the world.
At the Sigma Alpha Epsilon house, its traditional letters unceremoniously removed. Today, a steady flow of moving trucks. Big job?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have no idea.
MARQUEZ: Fast job?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your guess good as mine is right now. It's last minute call, so.
MARQUEZ: At the SAE house, a last minute scramble to clear out. Hello? Hello? How are you? CNN. Can I chat with somebody? It is
4:00 here in Oklahoma and the parking lot here at the SAE house is nearly empty hours ahead of the deadline imposed by the university. This entire fraternity shut down.
Students here in full protest mode. The story football team linking arms in a powerful show of support for the demonstrators but there is fallout. One star recruit who signed on to play for OU now says no way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wouldn't want my son or child going anywhere like that. I don't want my brothers going anywhere like that. It was disturbing to me. I don't like it.
MARQUEZ: Bright spot out of work African-American SAE chef Howard Dixon hit an unexpected jackpot. More than $60,000 raised for him online. And those who attended OU pledged SAE in love both institutions or left, scratched heads and left.
When you saw this, how did you react?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shocked. Absolutely shocked. That's all I can say. I think it's wrong to judge the entire house on what a few did on a bus.
MARQUEZ: Bob Burnham came to his old fraternity house hoping to find answers. He was quickly was overwhelmed with emotion. Why did you come here to see this place after so many years?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it was.
COOPER: Miguel Marquez joining us in front of the SAE fraternity house. Is there likely to be more expulsion expulsions?
MARQUEZ: It looks like there may be more expulsions, certainly disciplinary actions. The school wants to know everybody on that bus, and what their role was, and what they were doing before any final decisions but sounds like it is very much leaving the door open to expulsion expulsions, Anderson.
COOPER: There have been suggestions that this so-called chant is used more widely. In apology statement, this young man has put out. He said he that was taught this chant. He doesn't say who he taught it by or who they were taught it by. Do we know more about it?
MARQUEZ: We don't know a lot more. We're getting glimpses. It is a secretive society as all fraternities are, but we know in other areas, students have told me they have heard similar or the same chant before. It has been reported in other areas around the country that the similar or same chant has been used by SAE fraternities. The national chapter said this is nothing that is sanctioned. This is not an SAE chant, but yet we keep hearing in dribs and drabs, individuals coming forward saying it is something they have heard before. It's a fraternity formed around the time of the civil war - Anderson. COOPER: Yes. Miguel Marquez, thank you very much.
In case you're wondering about the kind of racial climate at the SAE house, here's another video that surfaced. The SAE house mother from OU rapping along the Trinidad James' old gold everything. And seemingly excited to be using the n word.
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)
COOPER: Now for the record, the song drops the n-bomb three times in a row at most. The house mother does it seven times. Today, she says, she is heartbroken that she is friends of all races and does not tolerate any form of discrimination in her life. She also said she knew nothing about the chant.
Joining us now is Brandon Weghorst, SAE associate, executive director of communication.
Brandon, thank you for being with us.
So, two members of the fraternity kicked out of school today. Do you believe that was a just punishment?
BRANDON WEGHORST, SAE ASSOCIATE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF COMMUNICATION: Absolutely. We believe there's consequences for your actions. It's unfortunate when someone has to be expelled from the university like that but there are things that you have to take into consideration and especially in a hateful message like that. They don't represent us. They don't represent anyone.
COOPER: The students in the video, certainly didn't seem like this was the first time they chanted this. Were you aware of this chant before? Again, the young man in the statement just released says this is a chant he had been taught. He doesn't say who taught it.
WEGHORST: Right. We've been asked that question also on the headquarters level and also looked into these different cases that people say this group knows this chant or this was taught by the national organization. There's absolutely nothing in our history, especially related to our songs of course that has to do with a chant that's inappropriate and racist and just disgusting like this.
And I don't understand, you know. So we're sort of trying to figure out how we can validate that. And we hold other people accountable and other chapters accountable if we know that they have details about this or participating in something like this.
COOPER: How many black members have there been in the University of Oklahoma's SAE chapter?
WEGHORST: I don't know the exact number because until a year and a half or two years ago, we were not really asking ethnicity as part of reporting to the national headquarters because we never thought it's been important the color of your skin or your background of origin, simply whether or not you have the characteristics and really the character and moral value we're looking for in Sigma Alpha Epsilon. So in the data we have currently, it doesn't actually reflect the
entire span of the current undergraduates across the country.
COOPER: Well -- there is an essay written by an African-American man who joined this chapter 14 years ago. At that point, he said he was the second black member ever at the chapter. And he said that since then, there has not been a third. So in the entire history of the chapter, according to him, there's only been two African-American members of the SAE fraternity.
And I guess I'm wondering, what sort of oversight at all do you have of your fraternities? Because as a national organization, I would think if you looked and said, gee, in the past 14 years, there isn't been one black person at this fraternity, that's kind of odd.
WEGHORST: It may seem odd for, you know, obviously for this particular case and to say, this is somehow indicative of all the chapters across the country. But that's not true. There are chapters in the country right now even though there's not a statistic behind it that we know from interacting with and from training and other events that there's chapters where there are white students who are the minority. And then other chapters there are other minorities or other groups that are representative. There are chapters where a lot of people come from homes and English isn't spoken as a primary first language, so it depends what campus you're at.
COOPER: I'm just wondering as an organization, was there never a time when somebody from the national organization visited this chapter or looked at the roles of this chapter and in the last 14 years, never said, there's no black people here and there's only been two black people in the history of this thing. I mean, what kind of oversight do you actually have?
WEGHORST: Absolutely and the thing is that the oversight of the national office is that we work with the chapters, we do visit the chapters but chapters are autonomous. In other words, we do not mandate who they can or take from membership. There are regulations on the type of person, the type of individual they should extend an invitation to join too. But again, in terms of saying this is a problem, it is not something that, again, to the national organization has stepped in to say we need to monitor this more closely only in the sense there are certainly things we want and the things the organization has.
COOPER: So now, are you thinking maybe that should be something to say to local chapters, that you know what, it would be a good idea to have a diverse student body as part of this fraternity. I mean, it reflects the values we care about. Is that something you're thinking about doing?
WEGHORST: Anderson, yes. The leadership is dedicated to making sure of this. The response to the national organization or leadership isn't about just about saying we close a chapter, the members are suspended and facing expulsion soon. It is about that we can't control what's happened in the past. It's in the past. What we can do is focus on the current situation, where we are right now as an organization and what we need to do to change this to make it better, to learn from things and make sure our members understand this is the type of thing that we stand for as a fraternity because it's the right thing to do and because we need to move forward from this situation.
It's wrong to vilify sigma alpha epsilon across the country based on a chapter or a couple of chapters or instances that happened even over a 10 or 20 year span. Still, it's a large national organization.
COOPER: Are you concerned at all though, according to "the Washington Post" online, SAE talks about its roots in the pre-civil war south and (INAUDIBLE) south and highlights how few early members fought for the union and how many fought for the confederacy.
And I'm just wondering as you kind of think about the future, is that a message that you really want to be promoting? Because I mean, I'm just wondering how many African-Americans would really want to join something where the organization is promoting, you know, how many people fought for the confederacy and how many people fought to uphold slavery and something that you have on your web site.
WEGHORST: Sure. We obviously looked at that to see how that's perceived by anybody who is considering joining the fraternity at any campus across the country. But the reality is that we were founded in 1856 at the University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa. So the early members of the fraternity and the history of the organization is exactly that. We have a lot to be proud of in Sigma Alpha Epsilon. Of course, we know the history of Sigma Alpha Epsilon, what is affiliated and not affiliated with SAE because we are members. The bigger issue is we need to do a better job communicating that and how it's perceived by people who are not in the fraternity.
COOPER: Right. I mean, I get being proud of one's history. I have roots in the south as well. I understand being proud of, you know, the people who founded the fraternity. I know a lot of pledges memorize the names of the original founders and apparently this bus was going to a founder's day party but don't you think, if one of your goals moving forward is perhaps and maybe it's not but to attract African-American members, you say you think about how it might be perceived, don't you think that would be perceived differently by African-Americans than it might be perceived by whites of the southern background?
WEGHORST: Absolutely. And there's part of the discussion. I mean, we're looking at a lot of different options. Our leadership is also engaged with people to reach out to us to offer their support and also the things that they think that we need to take into consideration. So that we can do a better job of being able to communicate more accurately what SAE is and looking at, you know, the type of person we want because it is true that we don't look at diversity in the sense of just being the color of someone's skin or the ethnicity. There's a lot of diversity in the organization that is not just about that. Background in terms of that.
COOPER: Right. But some diversity in terms of color of skin might not be a bad idea? WEGHORST: No, absolutely. And again, if you will look at chapters
across the country even talk to members in Sigma Alpha Epsilon right now, they would look at not be able to -- how can you say we're not diverse?
COOPER: We're going to do that now.
Brandon, I appreciate you being on. Thank you.
WEGHORST: Of course. Thank you for having me.
COOPER: Joining me now is Mikel Sykes, president of the SEA at Delta State University in Cleveland , Mississippi. And Naomi Kadira, co- director of OU Unheard on campus.
Appreciate both of you being with us.
Mikel, let's start with you. When you first saw this video, I mean, obviously, I imagine you were horrified who as someone who belongs to the fraternity at another university.
MIKEL SYKES, PRESIDENT, SAE AT DELTA STATE UNIVERSITY IN CLEVELAND , MISSISSIPPI: Absolutely. It was really upsetting, extremely disturbing to see that members of the organization to have that belief and have that chant a part of their traditions or whatever. It was extremely disturbing and really sad to see.
COOPER: And how many African-American members are at your fraternity right now?
SKYES: We have about a 42 man chapter. There's about four of us that are African-American. We just graduated a couple of years ago. So we've had a few African-American members at our chapter. Our school, Delta State University in Cleveland, does a really good job of promoting diversity among this Greek organizations and we have a really great Greek system there.
COOPER: And was there ever any concern on your part when you were thinking about joining SAE or rushing it, I guess as you call it, you know, on the web site about them being based on, you know, founded in the south and how many members fought with the confederacy. Was there any concern on your part?
SKYES: Never. And that's mainly and solely because of the people that were already in the organization. I met them and they were just outstanding gentlemen and it was absolutely something I wanted to be a part of. The true gentlemen spells out everything I want to be as a man in life and so there was never any concern about that on my end.
COOPER: About being a true gentleman, something SAE talks about in their fraternities.
Naomi, I know your group OU unheard hasn't had time to discuss the expulsions. But you, personally, do you think the university president has done enough? NAOMI KADIRA, CO-DIRECTOR , OU UNHEARD ON CAMPUS: I wouldn't say it's
enough but we definitely are standing behind our president's decision and we are very grateful that he's moving swiftly and not taking this situation lightly.
COOPER: And I know, Naomi, it's important for you that the conversation doesn't end with these expulsions. What do you think need to happen next on your campus?
KADIRA: For us, as Unheard, I know we're not really focusing on expulsion or any punishment. We want this to be a learning moment for not just SAE, but for organizations across campus, even nationally. We're so glad this thing has gained national attention because this can be the change. It can start change and really just bring people's attention and allow people to notice these things are happening. People aren't making this up when they say we are facing micro- aggression on campus or in the city or anywhere else.
COOPER: It's interesting, Naomi. Because when you look at statistics and polls, often you have African-Americans in this country saying, you know, this is a conversation we need to have more of and oftentimes, you, Caucasian Americans in polls say, you know what, this isn't something we need to be talking about quite so much. You're saying, this is actually a good thing it's become part of a national discussion.
KADIRA: Definitely. These things are happening. And for people, whether they be white, black, blue, or purple, who are experiencing them, it's easy to say this isn't happening. This isn't real. We're in post-racial America. But for people like myself and people representing the group unheard, this is happening. This is something we see every day.
A lot of people if you ask, they'll say they weren't shocked this happened when they saw the video. They were not shocked. I heard that so much. And this is why. So I'm definitely glad this is a conversation that's now happening nationally.
COOPER: So Mikel, what would you say to the national organization about what needs to change if something needs to change? I mean, does there need to be more oversight, more effort to attract or to at least let people see the organization that you see and, I mean, does something need to change in this organization?
COOPER: Sorry, that was for Mikel. I'm sorry, Naomi - Mikel?
SKYES: It really varies from chapter to chapter, you know. There's a lot of chapters I know of that promote diversity such as our chapter at Delta State. And, you know, there's a lot of chapters that may not. And an organization that's 15,000 undergraduates, you're going to have bad apples and it's really unfortunate when that happens. But, you know, I'm not necessarily sure of the best solution or the best, you know, way the national organization can go about fixing the problem. But I think the first step is recognizing that there is a problem and then, you know, brain storming different ideas on how to go about solving that.
COOPER: And Naomi, I will ask the same question to you. Do you believe the national organization has done enough?
KADIRA: As far as doing enough, like I said, no. There definitely needs to be a teaching aspect of this. Punishment, OK. It will go so far. But if we don't teach and hone in on the issue of why it was wrong, it's not OK. It's not enough.
COOPER: Naomi Kadira, appreciate you being on and Mikel Skyes as well. Appreciate you talking to us about your experience. Thank you so much.
We are going to have more on this in a moment.
A quick reminder, make sure you see your DVR. You can watch "360" whenever you want.
Coming up nest, taking up students for what they say, was that justified this time? Is it never justified, can university actually do that? What about the first amendment, the freedom of speech? Senior analyst Jeffrey Toobin and others join us next.
Also later, Hillary Clinton ending the suspense about why she says she used a private email account the entire time she was secretary of state. The question now, will it end the controversy? Clinton biographer Carl Bernstein joins us.
COOPER: Welcome back.
The breaking news tonight, one of the students expelled from Oklahoma University for leading a racist chant is apologizing. This is what he's saying - this is what he is apologizing for, I should say. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There will never be a n-- S-A-E. You can never hang them from a tree, but they'll never sign with me. There will never be a n--
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: There will never be a n-word at SAE.
Just moments ago, Parker Rice, one of the expelled frat brothers, issued a state. We got it just at the beginning of the program, so I read a bit. Then I want to read a little bit more now.
He says quote 'I know everyone wants to know why or how this happened. I admit it likely was fueled by alcohol consumed at the house before the bus trip. That's not an excuse. Yes," he says, "the song was taught to us, but that too doesn't work as an explanation. It's more important to acknowledge what I did and what I didn't do. I didn't say no and I clearly dismissed an important value I learned at my beloved high school, Dallas Jesuit. We were taught to be man for others. I failed on that regard. And in those moments, I also completely ignored the core values and ethics I learned from my parents and others."
Parker Rice, just moments ago.
What he and the others did was certainly hateful and ugly. The question tonight, should any words, no matter how hateful and ugly get you expelled from college where free speech is supposedly so highly valued.
Joining us is senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin, Michael Meyers of the New York Civil rights coalition and "New York Times" columnist Charles Blow.
Michael, let's start with you. Was the expulsion of two students justified?
MICHAEL MEYERS, NEW YORK CIVIL RIGHTS COALITION: No.
MEYERS: First of all, this is a public university. It is not a private university. Public university means government. We have a first amendment to the United States constitution. This is the United States of America. We believe in free speech. And you only have a first amendment to protect the speech with which we disagree. And we can disagree vehemently, but it's speech that is protected by the constitution.
Now, it can be hateful speech, it can be racist speech, but guess what? Free speech on a bus does not apply only to white students. I could imagine black students on a bus to the million man march, because of racist march chanting similar anti-white chants. Would they be expelled because of their speech as hateful? Would the president of the University of Oklahoma feel hurt, have a sleepless night because black students don't like whiteys?
I remember the chant. Look out whitey, white power, black power, get your mama. I mean, that can chill people. That can hurt their feelings. But hurt feelings, sleepless nights, is not a basis for violating the first amendment to the United States constitution.
COOPER: Jeff Toobin, what about that? Because I know your opinion, Jeff, on this has changed several times today.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Three times today. I think this is a really hard question. Ultimately, I think the answer is the university is justified in dismissing these students because context matters and what might be appropriate speech in front of the U.S. capitol where political speech is supposed to be free and unfettered, is different at a university because universities are supposed to be welcoming communities for everyone. And there's a code of conduct and I read the OU code of conduct today and it really does seem to cover this kind of speech as intolerable at the university. Now, I know it's a tough line to draw. You can't throw a student out
for saying vote for the Democrats or vote for the communists or vote for ISIS, probably. But I think this speech was so unwelcoming to African-Americans that I can see why expulsion might be OK.
COOPER: Charles, I mean, Jeff is essentially saying there is some places where free speech, maybe isn't so free, where you can't have free speech.
CHARLES BLOW, COLUMNIST, NEW YORK TIMES: That's what the Supreme Court has ruled that free speech in schools including colleges is not unfettered. That the schools have a say. And that they can have a code of conduct and that code of conduct in particular can include hate speech.
COOPER: Even if you are on a bus not on the college campus?
MEYERS: Has not said that.
BLOW: In 1988.
MEYERS: The Supreme Court has not said people cannot get on a bus off campus and engage in hateful speech, racist speech and say, that they can be expelled for that. I'm surprised by that.
BLOW: No, of course they didn't rule on this particular incident. Of course, they didn't do that.
MEYERS: But the difference -- there's the difference between speech in a classroom on a situation where you are making a truly disruptive classroom.
COOPER: Jeff --
MEYERS: But speech itself, but by itself is not the basis for expelling because they don't like what you said.
BLOW: Did you read that opinion?
MEYERS: Yes, I did.
BLOW: The 1988 opinion?
I have read the Supreme Court jurisprudence on this matter and let me tell you, the Supreme Court agrees with me, not with you and not with Jeff.
COOPER: Jeff, does where the speech was said, the fact it was said on a bus off campus toward the party, does that make a difference?
TOOBIN: I don't think that helps and this was obviously a frat function, a university frat. I mean, if it were in on a field trip to Istanbul on the other side of the world, perhaps it would be different. But here you have an immediate, you know, right outside OU, you know, leaving from the fraternity. They've been drinking at the fraternity. This was obviously a fraternity function. I don't pretend it's an easy question. But I do think that universities are allowed to police and that's an ugly word when it comes to speech, but to police what is said in their environment to make everyone feel welcome.
COOPER: But Charles, I mean, isn't it a slippery slope here? I mean, to have the university deciding what you can say? So what, some group of Republicans on a bus making fun of Democrats, that would be -- that would hurt the feeling of Democrats on campus?
BLOW: Listen. I think you can make a case either way and probably make a strong case. I'm just saying what the Supreme Court found is that free speech is not unfettered in schools. And that if you have a code of conduct, in particular in this case, if that code of conduct includes hate speech, you can act on that code of conduct.
MEYERS: There is no code of conduct that is allowed to trump the constitution's first amendment. Jeff, you know that. You know that.
TOOBIN: You're right, but --
MEYERS: I'm shocked! I'll have a sleepless night. I want an apology. I want an apology.
COOPER: Michael Meyers, good to have you. Charles, Jeffrey Toobin as well.
Coming up next, how Hillary Clinton's email answers jive with the facts that we know. And how her performance today might affect her future run for president. We will be right back.
COOPER: Welcome back. Hillary Clinton stepped up to the mike today and talked about her e-mailing habits while Secretary of State. She answered questions about why she did all of it, both government and personal using a private account on her own domain and mail server. She said she didn't want to carry two smartphones. She said she did nothing wrong, but wishes that she had done some things differently.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, I have to tell you that as I said in my remarks looking back, it would have been probably, you know, smarter to have used two devices, but I have absolute confidence that everything that could be in any way connected to work is now in the possession of the State Department.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Her answer, as you might imagine, satisfied some. Not others. And, of course, only fuels what has now been a 20 year running conversation on the Clintons. Here with more tonight CNN's Jeff Zeleny.
So, she said she might have done some things differently, but she did nothing wrong. JEFF ZELENY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I mean it's close to an apology or sort of an act of contrition as we are going to hear from Secretary Clinton. She basically said, take my word for it, but that's the whole problem, so many people, basically half the people are not willing to take her word for it. Half the people are. But still, like left a lot of holes in her explanation of this. The biggest one is, she said I deleted all my personal e-mail. She's deciding what's personal and that's the problem here. She deleted some 30,000 e- mails, turned over some 30,000 others. So, that's where the rub is.
COOPER: And I guess the question is, are those truly deleted? Will anybody actually look for them? Because all of this was on a server at her house.
ZELENY: That's what she says. And she said, look. We're not turning over the server. It's a private server. But that's where congressional Republicans smell blood. They have already said we're going to subpoena, we're going to go after this. So, this could end up in a legal fight, but she says, you know, that she's not handing this over. She has given paper copies, hard paper copies and (INAUDIBLE) 1995 law that actually allows you to do that. Well, of course, that's an antiquated law, so that's what people will say. Why not turn over the electronic copies, you can get so much more from that.
COOPER: I want to play a little bit more what she said, about whether this would impact her political career.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON: I trust the American people to make their decisions about political and public matters. And I feel that I've taken unprecedented steps to provide these work-related e-mails. They're going to be in the public domain.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: For those who don't like Hillary Clinton, this certainly kind of jives with a lot of their feelings about her being secretive, about both the Clintons, falling, obviously, for those who do like her, they're going to give her the benefit of the doubt. I want you to stick around because I want to bring in Carl Bernstein who knows the thing or two about politicians under pressure, and a lot about Secretary Clinton. He's the bestselling author of "A Woman in Charge: the Life of Hillary Rodham Clinton." Clearly, Clinton wants this to go away, Carl. Do you think the news conference helped or hurt?
CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Probably hurt, it certainly didn't helped very much that we are deep into Clintonian paranoia. Hers, her entourage, her lawyers and her enemies. And it's a terrible and dispiriting mix that's very familiar. And what this is really about is Hillary Clinton wants to control her correspondence and her words so that she can determine who sees what she said. It's a difficult position to be in, particularly now and it's going to be a hell of a mess for a while. COOPER: But, you know, Carl, for some - for people to be acting, her
using her personal e-mail is by itself a huge transgression, if this were some other former candidate secretary instead of Hillary Clinton, would it even be a story?
BERNSTEIN: No, it would not, but Hillary Clinton is Hillary Clinton. The most famous woman in the world, the former secretary of state. It does deal with official papers, with official e-mails, and she wants to control them. She does not want others to have really unfettered access or control over them. It's a difficult position to be in and at the same time, given the viciousness of her enemies, given what she and Bill Clinton have been through before and those who will give them no quarter, you can understand why she wants to control this and at the same time, we also know we've been here before. We are now back into one of these titanic struggles over what words mean, what this point of law means. Who's at fault here. Splitting hairs. And it's not fun for anybody and it's going to determine an awful lot of how this campaign goes unfortunately.
COOPER: Yeah. I mean, Jeff, there might very well - there might be people who kind of like, you know what? I just don't want to get - like be reminded of all this sort of - this controversy and if she runs and if she gets elected, does this mean four or eight years of, again, this kind of nitpicking?
ZELENY: It certainly is a reminder of that. I talked to a couple of top Democrats today and said, you know, how long do you think this is going to go on? They're asking us that. I mean the media environment that was totally different than any other Clinton scandal that we have seen. We move on from things faster, things move faster. So, I'm not sure that this will affect her campaign, but it will be a soundtrack to her campaign. She'll be called to testify before that Benghazi committee at least twice in the middle of this campaign, subpoenas and other things.
So, this is going to go on, but that will also help build her supporters. That helps her go on offense as well by getting some Democrats to rally to her defense. Republicans have to worry about overreaching here. I've heard that as well. We didn't hear that much from them today. They're sort of staying out of it a little bit for now.
COOPER: A lot of people kind of stay out of it kind of letting it see where the chips fall and, you know, not going to get in the way of a train wreck if it becomes a train wreck. Carl, for a politician who wants to run for president, what's the safer route, having all your e- mails out there for people to read or just taking the hit and saying, the deleted ones were about yoga?
BERNSTEIN: There's no easy answer to that question and I wouldn't know what to advice. What I know and understand is that Hillary Clinton is sui (ph) generous, she is the most famous woman in the world. She is not judged like any other person in our political system. Everything about her and her campaign for presidency exists by itself with no parallels. Including this situation. Because she's damned if she does, she's damned if she doesn't and it's one more reminder of the kind of territory that we're in because it's all about her relationship to the truth. That's always been a difficult relationship, as I say, toward the end of my book and at the same time, you understand why there is secrecy when you listen to her enemies, listen to those people on the Benghazi committee. They're ready to draw and quarter her.
There's the most outrages kind of knee jerk response to the Clintons from the other side and this just sets this fight in motion. Once again. And also, to listen to Jeb Bush, for instance, on a high and mighty platform go after Hillary Clinton on this and dot the I's and cross the t's. There's an awful lot of hypocrisy being thrown around all over the place.
COOPER: I'm shocked.
BERNSTEIN: We heard some of it today, and we are going to hear it on the other side.
COOPER: Yeah, shocked to hear there's hypocrisy in Washington. Carl Bernstein, thank you, Jeff Zeleny, thanks so much. It's great to have you here at CNN. We're all really excited.
Coming up next, the Madison, Wisconsin police officer who shot and killed an unarmed teenager Friday, was involved in a deadly shooting before. Details on that are now coming out. Coming up next.
COOPER: The family of an unarmed biracial teenager killed by police in Wisconsin says they take some comfort knowing that it won't be the police department itself handling the investigation. 19-year old Tony Robinson was killed by Officer Matt Kenny after calls came in that a man was yelling and jumping in front of cars and then tried to strangle someone. The police chief says the Robinson assaulted Kenny who then shot and killed him. Now, because of a new law in Wisconsin, the state, not the police department, is handling the investigation of the incident. Robinson's uncle says he trusts it will be handled with integrity. Connecticut is the only other state, by the way, that has such a law. This is not, though, the first time Officer Kenny has killed someone. There was another case in 2007, one for which he was not only exonerated, but received an award. Gary Tuchman reports.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: At this house in Madison, Wisconsin, not far from where last week's fatal shooting of Tony Robinson occurred, a man named Ronald Brandon, a father of two made a call to 9-11 in July of 2007.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
911 DISPATCHER: 9-1-1, what is the address of emergency?
RONALD: There is a man waving a gun.
911 DISPATCHER: Did you say there is a man with a gun? Where is he at?
RONALD: He's sitting on the porch.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUCHMAN: But for reasons we'll never know, the man with the gun Ronald Brandon was talking about was himself. Ronald Brandon had the gun and he was sitting on his steps with it as three police officers raced to the scene, his ex-wife, who also lived in his house with him, made her own call to 9-1-1.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
911 DISPATCHER: 9-1-1, what's the address of the emergency?
SUSAN: My ex-husband is sitting outside and I think he just called 9- 1-1 and he's got a pellet gun and I think he's saying --
911 DISPATCHER: Did you already call us?
SUSAN: My ex-husband called - is calling you right now. And he just called you. I just want to let you know that he doesn't have a real - that he's calling to say that somebody has a gun outside. He's drunk.
911 DISPATCHER: OK, does he have a gun?
SUSAN: No, he has a pellet gun.
911 DISPATCHER: And is it loaded?
SUSAN: No. Ahh, I hear the sirens coming. Jesus Criminy! It's not a - it's not a real gun. I think he wants to be taken away.
TUCHMAN: The sirens were indeed coming. In fact, Officer Matt Kenny was on his way, the same officer Kenny who this week shot and killed Tony Robinson. What happened next in the call with Susan Brandon even shocked the dispatcher.
911 DISPATCHER: Oh my god. What's going on, Susan?
SUSAN: He's (yelling)
911 DISPATCHER: Tell me what's going on, Susan.
SUSAN: He shot him.
911 DISPATCHER: What?
SUSAN: He shot him.
911 DISPATCHER: He shot your husband?
911 DISPATCHER: I think we have shots fired in Camden.
SUSAN: Oh, my god!
911 DISPATCHER: Stay calm. OK. Is your husband shot?
SUSAN: He's shot.
911 DISPATCHER: Stay on the phone with me, OK?
911 DISPATCHER: Stay in the house. Stay in the house.
SUSAN: Oh! This is a toy gun.
911 DISPATCHER: OK. Regardless of what kind of gun he had, he must have brandished it at the officer, OK?
SUSAN: And I'm sure he did. That's what I was trying to tell you. Oh, god. Oh, god. Oh, Jesus.
TUCHMAN: Ronald Brandon's ex-wife did the proper thing. Calling 9-1- 1 to give police a warning of a potentially dangerous situation that wasn't quite what it seemed. But the police officers here on the scene, one of them being Officer Matt Kenny, never got that message. Records show the 9-1-1 call was made 40 seconds before they arrived here. Brandon pointed his pellet gun at the police and Officer Kenny shot him dead.
No charges were filed against Officer Kenny in the shooting. And he went on to receive the police department's highest award, the Medal of Valor, for a police employee who performs extraordinary acts of bravery and heroism, all related to Ronald Brandon's shooting death. Brandon's son and daughter did not want to appear on camera, but they told us in a written statement that says in part, although we acknowledge our father's decisions led to his own fate in July of 2007, we do not think it was appropriate to award Matt Kenny with the Medal of Valor and a standing ovation for his actions that day portraying him as a hero.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUSAN: Oh, god! Oh, Jesus.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUCHMAN: The hurt the family has long felt made more acute now that Officer Matt Kenny is back in the news.
TUCHMAN: Ronald Brandon was killed on July 15th. On July 17TH, the District Attorney at the time came up with this finding that he saw no basis for any criminal liability against any of the three officers. That investigation took two days. Regarding the award, the police chief today who wasn't the police chief back then says you can't Monday morning the quarterback. It's based on perceptions at the time. Not on the reality that you find out afterwards, and finally regarding Ronald Brandon. His children want to make it clear, he was a troubled soul, but they say he was a loving man and a wonderful father and their hearts have been broken every day since he died. Anderson?
COOPER: All right, Gary, thank you very much for the report. Just moments ago, breaking news out of Ferguson, Missouri.
We've just learned that city manager John Shaw had just stepped down, there's more fallout from the Justice Department report on policing in Ferguson. This comes a day after a local judge also resigned. Up next, my conversation with Miles O'Brien about the seemingly ordinary moment that changed his life forever.
COOPER: He shares what the past year has been like after losing his arm in a freak accident. It happened halfway around the world in the Philippines where Miles had been working on a story. An equipment case fell on him, camera equipment. Chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta describes what happened next in "Miles O'Brien, a Life Lost and Found".
MILES O'BRIEN: The bruise hurt.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Miles thought, it's just a bruise. After all, it wasn't a dramatic incident like a car crash or a sky diving accident. It was just a case that fell and hit his arm. So Miles did what we all do too often. We ignore the pain, hoping it would just go away. It turned out to be an honest, but nearly fatal mistake.
(on camera): And so, you saw burns ...
O'BRIEN: Yeah, I mean, you know, it got kind of ugly, but I was - I had been bruised. I really wanted to go to the beach. And so I thought, I'm not going to. Denial. I wasn't going to run to. You know, I was in the Philippines. I didn't have medical infrastructure right there at my fingertips. So, that was on the 12 of February. And by the night of the 13, end of the 14, it - the pain started to -- it got worse. And by the time I got up in the morning, I knew it was like shooting and throbbing pains. It was very, it was obvious this was something much more than a bruise.
GUPTA (voice over): Miles found an English speaking doctor who told him it looked like a textbook case of acute compartment syndrome. It was the first time Miles had ever heard the term.
O'BRIEN: He said this and I literally was trying to wiki what I had. And, you know, I didn't like what I read.
COOPER: Miles has reported from all over the globe. This time, he came close to dying just from this freak accident. I talked to him and Sanjay about what exactly happened when that case hit his arm.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: One of the things I knew, you talked about early on is just how given all the places you've been, all the dangers you have faced to have something happen like this is just so bizarre. Can you explain just medically what happened here, Sanjay?
GUPTA: Yeah. It's thankfully relatively rare thing, but, you know, at the time that Miles got struck with this case, it caused this damage essentially to the muscle underneath his skin. The muscle in the artery, the veins, the nerves, they are all wrapped up in this tight layer of tissue known as fascia. So when the muscle got hit, it swells, that's what - the response is to that injury. And the problem is, that it had nowhere to swell so it starts to sort of die and push on the arteries around it, cutting off the blood flow and eventually when that muscle dies, it releases toxins into the rest of the blood and that can potentially be a life-threatening situation. The goal is and this is what I think they were thinking at the beginning was, let's open up that compartment around the muscle, give it some room to swell and maybe that could curtail the damage.
Problem was, by the time Miles was in the hospital, it was too far gone. There was too much muscle that had already died.
COOPER: You had never heard of anything like this, had you?
O'BRIEN: No, Anderson. I mean, you know, when I finally got to the doctor, and he said, you know, acute compartment syndrome, I had - say it again, please? And I was literally, as he was, you know, ordering up the surgery, I am Wiking it on my phone, kind of forget that I had, and like the first line was, had the words amputation and fatal. And so I thought, oh boy. This is ...
COOPER: That's how you found out?
O'BRIEN: Yes, that's exactly how I found out.
COOPER: That's quite a Wikipedia page.
O'BRIEN: Yeah, that's one I'll never forget seeing. And that was, you know, at that point --
COOPER: Were you in tremendous pain?
O'BRIEN: Yes, so that was the thing, you know. A bruise is a bruise is a bruise. And then suddenly, it get, you know, the pain went in the other direction, when you would expect it to be dissipating, all of a sudden, it got really painful and, you know, there was numbness and it was not a pretty picture. Put it that way. I knew I was in trouble, but I didn't know how much.
COOPER: Miles, thank you so much for doing this. And Sanjay as well.
"Miles O'Brien: A Life Lost and Found." Just coming at the top of the hour, 9 Eastern, a couple of minutes from now, the "360" team produced the hour. W We are all really proud of it, incredibly proud of Miles and Sanjay. We hope you'll watch.
Just ahead, what happened just moments, after would-be kidnapper grabbed a little boy.
COOPER: What's happening tonight. Amara Walker joins us with a "360 Bulletin." Amara.
AMARA WALKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, jurors in the Boston marathon bombing trial today saw the writings of defendant Dzhokhar Tsarnaev from inside the boat he used as a hideout after the attack. Tsarnaev wrote that the U.S. government is killing innocent citizens and quote, "I can't stand to see such evil go unpunished."
Ten people were killed when two helicopters collided in Argentina while filming a French reality TV show. The show features famous athletes who are blindfolded and dropped into remote locations. Eight French passengers including contestants and crew and two Argentinean pilots died in the crash.
And in Washington State, a kidnapping attempt caught on surveillance video. You can see the suspects running off for the 22 month old boy who was playing in park with his 10 year old brother and eight year old sister, the siblings chased after the suspect and were screaming, which got the attention of two teenagers who joined the pursuit and the man let the little boy go and ran off. The suspect goes, still at large. Anderson.
COOPER: Terrifying, it's terrifying. Amara, thanks.
That's does it for us. "MILES O'BRIEN: A LIFE LOST AND FOUND" starts now.