Return to Transcripts main page

LEGAL VIEW WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

Two Officers Wounded in Ferguson Overnight; Tactical Operations Underway Now

Aired March 12, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And this is LEGAL VIEW. Welcome to our braking news.

The gunshots came out of nowhere, but almost 12 hours after two police officers were hit and seriously wounded in Ferguson, Missouri, the shooter is out there somewhere, yet police may just be closing in. A SWAT team is gathered right now at the house -- at a house about four blocks west of the shooting scene. And "The St. Louis Post Dispatch" reports that two people have been taken away. A third may still be inside but maybe for not much longer. Check out these officers breaking through the roof of that home. Much more on this ongoing operation in just a moment.

Earlier, in a news conference you may have seen live here on CNN, the St. Louis County police chief said his, quote, "number one priority," end quote, is finding whoever opened fire on a line of police officers who were guarding the Ferguson police headquarters during a tense night of protests.

Protestors claim either to celebrate the resignation of the Ferguson police chief or to demand the entire department be disbanded, or perhaps even both. Near midnight, the crowd was breaking up when as many as four shots rang out from a distance. The chief now estimates about 125 yards. He is calling it an ambush and says the weapon appears to have been a handgun.

I want to show you cell phone video that went out live online.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Acknowledgement nine months ago would have kept that from happening.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Oh, (EXPLETIVE DELETED). OK, there was just gunfire and now cops have guns drawn.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's on the hill.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's on the hill? Up there?

They're driving over the shields. Where are you going in the lot (ph). There -- it's up that way. It's up that street there. You guys are just going -- the shots came from back there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, I felt a bullet wiz by my head.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Son of a (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, guys, let's see your hands. Let's see your hands.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, man, you know it wasn't us. Those damn people shot (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was from up -- it was from way up there. You know -- you know -- you know it wasn't us. (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're not in the right state of mind right now. (EXPLETIVE DELETED) (INAUDIBLE).

(CROSS TALK)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Those are the pictures that were airing live via UStream live unedited and raw pictures of exactly the moment those shots rang out and the harrowing moments afterwards. The events in Ferguson are once again on the radar in Washington D.C. None other than the attorney general, Eric Holder, putting out a statement. And I will quote him. Quote, "this heinous assault on two brave law enforcement officers was inexcusable and repugnant. Such senseless acts of violence threaten the very reforms that non-violent protestors in Ferguson and around the country have been working towards for the past several months." He goes on to say, "we stand ready to offer any possible aid to an investigation into this incident." First, the DOJ was investigating the officers, now suggesting they will help these officers investigate who shot at them.

Neither of the wounded officers is even with the Ferguson PD. One is with the St. Louis County officers and the other with nearby Webster Grove. Here's St. Louis County Chief Jon Belmar.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF JON BELMAR, ST. LOUIS COUNTY POLICE: The Webster Groves officer is shot right here at the high point of your cheek, right under the right eye, and the bullet lodges right behind his ear. And that bullet is still with him. He's going to have to have further evaluation to figure out what they're going to do with that round.

The St. Louis County officer was struck right here on the shoulder and the bullet came out the middle of his right back.

Now, fortunately, with both officers, we don't have any remarkable, long-term injuries. In other words, it -- we didn't -- there wasn't a -- it wasn't in somebody's brain or heart or anything like this. But you need to know, these two officers took a very hard hit. Any time that you're shot in the face and have a bullet lodged in your head, any time that you have a through and through wound where the bullet enters your shoulder and comes out the middle of your right back, those are hard hits. So we're lucky by God's grace we didn't lose two officers last night.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: And we know those two officers have been released from the hospital. I want to get the very latest now from my colleague, Martin Savidge, who's live in Atlanta, and I'm joined live on the telephone as well by CNN law enforcement analyst Tom Fuentes, who can walk us through the operation to find these potential shooters.

First to you, Martin Savidge. I want to just make sure our viewers are well aware that the pictures we're showing about the SWAT operation that's ongoing at that nearby home, those are on a lengthy delay. So we're not giving away any tactical operations. We're not, you know, showing anything that hasn't been well completed. But these are the images that we've been seeing. Can you get me up to speed, Martin, on what they've been doing?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, it's pretty clear by the posture there that whatever they were doing has now ended or subsided somewhat. It was about 9:30 in the morning local time we're told when this SWAT team converged on a particular home. So that would suggest, and I've covered a lot of these in the past, that they had some tip-off, somebody gave them some insider information that possibly someone connected to the shooting was in the home. They would have made entry in some way.

As you have already reported, there apparently have been some arrests and maybe somebody said hey, there's another person, could be up in the attic. Out of just being absolutely secure and sure, that may be why you saw a team poking around and trying to gain access to the attic there to make sure that no one was remaining hidden on the scene there. But it appears right now that is past. It's not uncommon that you'd call out a SWAT team, especially after two officers have been hit, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: No, not uncommon at all.

There were some reports that some were taken away and that a third person might still be in the home. Do we have any more clarity on that?

SAVIDGE: No, other than, you know, you can see as they're trying to make entry into the upper story of that home there, so beyond that we don't know whether, you know, it's just they've been tipped off or if they've got a real, solid connection.

BANFIELD: OK, Tom Fuentes, if you can hear me, I just wanted to get your comments on this operation in the attic. It just seems as though that would be a very risky proposition if someone were in the attic. They would be -- I mean they would be in a direct line of fire. Given the fact they're going after an alleged cop shooter, this would be a very dangerous operation.

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST (via telephone): Well, it's extremely dangerous, Ashleigh, but it's less dangerous if they're trying to open a hole to insert maybe a fiber optic device to be able to get a look at what's inside that attic and see if there's any person inside there. That's safer than going up maybe a ladder or something that's within the home that, you know, you're a sitting duck if you're trying to go up into that attic and someone's up there waiting for you. So this would be -- it's dangerous no matter what they do and they've already -- they face danger just standing on the street, as we saw last night. But this would be the least dangerous to try to determine from outside and above whether someone's in there.

BANFIELD: I just want to repeat that Eric Holder, the attorney general, called these officers brave that were shot upon last night. And I just want to alert our viewers as to the bravery of these officers who are on the roof. And I also want to remind our viewers, these pictures are extremely delayed. This is not an operation that's currently happening. We would not have given away those tactical strategies by airing them live. We did not do that. These are after the fact.

Tom Fuentes, just -- help me walk through, as we look at this joint (ph) of pictures, exactly what they would have done as they may have gotten a tip, as Marty said, it might have been a tip that led them to this neighborhood, to that particular house. What would the operation entail from start to finish?

FUENTES: Well, if they had reason to believe that they had the armed shooters inside that location, you know, they would have to determine whether they have barricaded subjects, whether they're going to come out on their own, whether there's hostages potentially in there. This could be a residence with a family, with children. So that in itself is dangerous, even if you have armed subjects and they're using their own children as human shields in, you know, in a sense. So they would be trying to get the individuals to surrender peacefully, come out, and then they would have to make a determination if anyone else is in there and clear the building. And as I said, if they had reason to believe that someone could be in an attic, it would be very dangerous to go -- that's one of the most dangerous things a tactical officer can do is go upstairs -- go up the stairs to a second landing or an upstairs hallway. So if they could send a device in from up above looking down, that would be safer for them, if that's what they're trying to do.

BANFIELD: Just a really remarkable scene that we've been watching play out courtesy of KMOV in Ferguson, Missouri.

Tom Fuentes, if you could stand by for a moment. Again, I just want to repeat that the "St. Louis Post Dispatch" reports that two people have been taken away after this operation, but that a third, at the time of the reporting, might still have been inside. We're continuing to watch that breaking situation.

But then again, of course, there are those who were right there during the shooting last night. Heard the bullets, even may have seen the muzzle flare. And joining me live now is Lawrence Bryant from Ferguson. He's near the Ferguson Police Department.

Lawrence, I understand you witnessed some of what happened last night. Can you take me through what it was you saw?

LAWRENCE BRYANT, WITNESSED FERGUSON POLICE SHOOTING: Basically what I saw was -- like I said, all I heard was the bullets flying and then the police officers going down. I did not see the muzzle or anything like that.

BANFIELD: You weren't able to see that. And you're a photographer for "The St. Louis American." Were you actually at work shooting pictures at the time that the shots rang out?

BRYANT: Yes. Actually, like I said, I was about to leave. I was talking with another colleague and we were debating on leaving because the crowd was thinning out and the police were thinning and the protestors were thinning. And I think it took everybody by surprise. Nobody expected that to happen.

BANFIELD: I'm seeing some of your pictures, along with the viewers right now, the pictures that you shot sort of during and after the shots rang out. Lawrence, there is some other witness account that the shots came from up a street, sort of a higher hill, and that they may have been anywhere upwards of a hundred yards away. Our viewers are seeing a map and there's an orange streak. Tiffin (ph) Avenue. Is that your recollection as well that it might have been that slope upward Tiffin Avenue toward the police department where those shots originated from?

BRYANT: Yes, it was definitely up the hill. It came from behind us. Like I said, I was on the sidewalk across from the police and, like I said, I maybe took one step back going towards my vehicle and that's when the shots rang out.

BANFIELD: Did you see the police officers hit? Did you see any of the aftermath?

BRYANT: I did. I saw the officer go down and I did see just a hint of blood. I didn't know if it was blood or not. What I found out later was that, yes, on the police officer did get shot in the face and one in the -- in the body.

BANFIELD: And did you see both of them hit or just the one?

BRYANT: I saw both of them hit.

BANFIELD: And at that time, what was the -- what was --

BRYANT: I believe I have a --

BANFIELD: Go ahead.

BRYANT: I believe there was a picture there was -- that you guys have also that is both of them are down.

BANFIELD: So tell me what happened immediately afterwards. Were the -- were his colleagues, his fellow officers, very quick to attend to them? Exactly what happened after they fell?

BRYANT: They went to protect and they quickly moved one officer that was on the sidewalk, they carried him out first. And then the second one went after they, I guess, got everything situated with that officer that was shot in the face. I believe that was the one that got shot in the face, that was on the grass.

BANFIELD: Could you hear anything, Lawrence? Could you hear them say anything?

BRYANT: There were yells. Like I said, I think everybody was in panic mode. And, like I said, I -- my first thing was, get down and get to cover, but at the same time I was just making sure it was documented.

BANFIELD: There was -- there was one thing I could hear as those shots were going -- were being fired in that live You Stream video via cell phone was airing, it seemed like there was some terrible screaming and it was hard to make out the origin of the screaming, whether it was the witnesses, those people who were just terrified nearby, or whether it was, in fact, the officers. Were you able to differentiate between that?

BRYANT: I thought it was the police officer at first. But what I come to find out that it was basically I think somebody from the media that was screaming.

BANFIELD: And what about the aftermath? I heard some of the people on the tape saying to the police officers as they were walking by, you know it's not us, it came from up there. And that, you know, coupled with some of the other witness accounts certainly seemed to corroborate that the shots came from up --up that -- that hill.

BRYANT: Yes, they definitely came up the hill. Like I said, it was very peaceful out here. Like I said, people were thinning out. You know, they were barbecuing. I mean everybody was, you know, just basically on their side. And, like I said, no one really expected that to happen. So, like I said, it took everybody by surprise and, you know --

BANFIELD: It's got to be a --

BRYANT: I guess that's how it went down.

BANFIELD: Yes, it's got to be an astounding and really surprising --

BRYANT: It was -- it was scary for everybody.

BANFIELD: I'll bet. Have you talked to the police yet, Lawrence?

BRYANT: Yes, it -- this definitely changed the game. Say it again?

BANFIELD: Have you -- have you been interviewed by the police yet about what you witnessed?

BRYANT: I did speak with a police officer last night. BANFIELD: OK. The fact that you just said it's definitely changed the

game, can you stay with me over the break? I want to ask you about that, about the mood and about what Eric Holder has said and how -- how that -- what that might mean, that this has changed the game. Can you stay with us?

BRYANT: Well, everybody's tense. I mean, from the protestors to the police officers. I mean, but this is taking it to another level. For all this time we've been out here, it's been very peaceful and people just want change within the system.

BANFIELD: Yes.

BRYANT: Like I said, I don't think anybody expected that this would happen. And like I said, but people -- everybody's just tense. And -- but, again, you can just imagine how -- I mean the police officers, they're going to go on defense mode. And it's -- it's going to be a little rough. But at the same time, I mean, what can you do?

BANFIELD: Well, listen, I really appreciate you telling your side of the story and what you saw last night to us. I hope -- you know, I hope, for the sake of everyone in Ferguson, they find who's responsible. And I appreciate your time today. Lawrence, thank you.

BRYANT: All right, no problem.

BANFIELD: Lawrence Bryant joining us from just outside the Ferguson Police Department.

We're continuing to watch the operation in Ferguson. You're seeing the tactical maneuvers from some time ago as they tried to break through the attic of a home that was targeted for some reason, as yet unknown. Some reports that two people taken away, a third report that -- or another report that a third person may have still been inside. We're going to watch this and have more just after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Still in breaking news here on LEGAL VIEW. Something is happening in Ferguson, Missouri, right now. Something involving a lot of police officers, tactical ones at that, at a home right in that town not far from where the shooting took place last night. The police call this a tactical situation. They're not saying much more than that. But, remember, there is a shooter on the loose somewhere in or around Ferguson, Missouri. And this video was recorded several minutes before. It is not live video. This action that you're seeing has passed. We are not putting any of these officers in jeopardy, nor their actions. This man lives in the neighborhood and saw several people taken out of the house in handcuffs. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police have their guns drawn?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They did when they went in the house.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And they took them out cuffed and they were still focused on the house. And then they were going in and looking around, took the dogs in. And then when SWAT got here, they backed out and SWAT, about 15 men went in there with their assault rifles. They thought someone was up in the ceiling.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: We are watching that tactical situation in Ferguson very carefully. I want to bring back in CNN law enforcement analyst Tom Fuentes, who joins us on the telephone.

And also we just learned that both police officers who were shot last night are out of the hospital.

All right, Tom, just talk to me a little bit about what exactly these officers may have been doing as they -- you know, we assume, Martin Savidge saying, you know, earlier, it's more than possible they got a tip and that's what led them to that household. And you can see from the various edited shots that a number of different responders are there, from police, to SWAT, et cetera. They've got canines. Take me through it. Exactly what would they be up to and how would they protect their members knowing that two police officers were shot just 12 hours ago?

FUENTES: Well, Ashleigh, they would do, you know, what is pretty much standard building clearing operation for a SWAT team. You see that they're protected. They're in their full tactical gear and it's not some menace society or any of that. It's trying to protect themselves because they've already had two officers ambushed the night before. And whatever information they had, if they believe they have the individuals that were involved in last night's shooting, then that means they're armed and dangerous.

You know, and we don't know at this point whether it was social media, somebody bragged about the shooting on, you know, social media page or whether they had someone in the communicate that said, hey, I think these individuals at this address were involved. You know, you should check it out. We don't know what led them to that particular address and what led them to do pretty much a very aggressive building clearing operation there.

Now, they've taken two subjects in custody. They have to clear the whole premises. But when you're going upstairs in a tactical operation, you're very vulnerable. It's always better to be on the high ground. And I think that if there was a ladder or just an opening to go into that attic, it would have been extremely dangerous. And it appears like they're trying to be cautious and go through -- create an opening in the roof that they can insert maybe an optical device into it to look around and determine whether or not the inside of that attic is clear or not.

BANFIELD: Tom, I'm just wondering, in terms of launching this tactical action, the fact that whomever did this shooting last night, according to the police chief of St. Louis County, he or she was using a handgun and did this from 125 yards away. I'm no expert in shooting, but that is a tough target to hit, a football field plus away with a handgun.

FUENTES: That's absolutely right. That's a very difficult -- you have to be an outstanding shooter. And the fact that four shots were fired and two actually hit police officers standing next to each other tells you that whoever was firing those hand guns, whether it's one or more people, were very good at doing it. So that's -- that extremely dangerous. And I think they're surmising that it wasn't a rifle shot because a rifle shot is super sonic and it makes a loud whiplash sound in the air that everybody in that crowd would have loudly heard. And the officer that was shot in the face would surely be dead if he was shot in the face with a rifle.

BANFIELD: Which is a harrowing thought. And then also to think that they are, you know, possibly about to come face to face with this person again if the tip they got is an accurate one and if the suspect is actually in that home who is such a good shot. Tom Fuentes on the phone with us. Thank you for that.

It is a full on search for whomever did that shooting right now and it is just amazing that the two officers are even alive, as you heard from Tom. Have a listen to this.

(VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: This happened around midnight. This video was shot across the street from the Ferguson police station where those two officers had been standing guard. And you just heard at least three shots and then chaos as frightened people reacted and tried to get to safety.

I want to bring in Professor Larry Koblinsky here. He's a forensic scientist at John Jay College of Criminal Justice.

The reason I wanted to talk to you about this was, they were able to get shell casings and apparently the officer who was shot in the face has a slug that was lodged behind his ear. So clearly they will be able to get that -- that slug, the casing and what will those do for us forensically to try to track down the shooter?

LARRY KOBLINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, I think this is very important evidence. If you've got the bullets and you've got the shell casings, one thing you could say is, they were fired from the same weapon. So -- and if that's true, then we're probably looking for one shooter and not multiple shooters.

Secondly, by looking at the bullets, looking at the shell casings, you can get a fairly good idea of what kind of weapon fired these shots. First of all, it had to be a semi-automatic to leave shell casings. The shell casings are going to reveal a lot about the manufacturer of the gun. What type of gun -- what type of ammunition was it? There are going to be what we call class characteristics and individual characteristics on both the shell casings and the bullets. So there's a lot of information there in the evidence. But, obviously, once you have a gun, you will be able to tell if that gun fired those bullets.

Also, trajectories. People saw the muzzle flash and so they do have a fairly good idea of trajectories. When all this comes together, even without a gun, if this gun had been used in other crimes, it could very well be sitting on a database, the ammunition that is. That will give you a possible linkage to previous crimes that have been committed with the gun. But that's speculation. We don't know.

BANFIELD: And then just -- interesting the -- is it the striations on the actual casings itself or the bullet that will link it to the actual gun, if they can find the gun at all?

KOBLINSKY: Yes, there are lands and grooves on the bullet. That's pretty well known. People will hear about that on TV shows. But there are lots of other markings on bullets and a whole bunch of different markings on shell casings. And this makes it very individual to a particular gun.

I think you raised a good point about the shots fired from 375 feet. I've shot a lot in targets and that's quite a distance. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a telescopic sight on that handgun.

BANFIELD: On the handgun?

KOBLINSKY: I wouldn't be surprised.

BANFIELD: Let me ask you something. Whoever did the shooting, you know, this is roughly 12 hours ago. You and I have covered a lot of cases in courtrooms where the subject of GSR comes up, gunshot residue --

KOBLINSKY: Right.

BANFIELD: On the hand that fires the weapon.

KOBLINSKY: That's right.

BANFIELD: You can wash your hands, but you can't always wash it off, can you?

KOBLINSKY: Well, it's not the best evidence. It used to be considered very significant. Some labs don't even test it anymore because it can fall off your hand, you could wash it off your hand. You can --

BANFIELD: But if you have gunshot residue on your hand 12 hours after the fact, it's that extraordinarily telling?

KOBLINSKY: If you see it and it's characteristically in the portion of the hand, that would be exposed to residue after a gun was fired, yes, it plays an important role. No question about that.

BANFIELD: And we have no idea if -- if the two people who were taken away from that home today, witnesses say in handcuffs, have anything to do with this. Whether that third person who was reportedly possibly still inside that home is still inside that home, but clearly that will be something that they are looking for.

Dr. Koblinsky, it's always good to have your perspective. Thank you so much.

KOBLINSKY: Sure. A pleasure.

BANFIELD: Appreciate it.

We're going to stay on this Ferguson story. We're going to update you on those tactical operations just as soon as we get more information on them. Clearly, they are holding their cards very close to their vest for understandable reasons.

And we have another big story today as well. Secret Service agents crash a car into the White House, a security barricade, after a late night party. What happened next -- or I should say what didn't happen next is pretty darn surprising, especially given how close they are to the president and also the past behavior of Secret Service agents.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)