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CNN NEWSROOM

Violence Between Police and African-American Males Brought Sharp Discussion on Race in America; Father Wrote Letter to Alleged Attacker of His Son; Does Jesus Christ Have a Brother?; Darth Vader Robbed a Bank. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired March 19, 2015 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:31:39] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: This past one of the hour, you're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

The multiple recent violent clashes between police and young African- American men has brought sharp focus to the discussion of race in America. This most recent incident this week, involving the bloody arrest of this University of Virginia student, this third year, Martice Johnson here, now adding to this debate, this outcry.

Tonight Don Lemon will take a closer look at this hands up, don't shoot movement, sparks by the shooting death of Michael Brown by white police officers in Ferguson, Missouri. And to Don actually sat down last night with the legendary songstress, Aretha Franklin, to discuss race relations in America. Queen of soul talked about raising four sons.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARETHA FRANKLIN, AFRICAN-AMERICAN SONGSTRESS: My children grew up pretty much the same way I did. Today it's different, you know, it's different. And most mothers in the African-American community, of course, are very concerned about their children and talking to them about how to conduct themselves if they're stopped for any reason.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: And Don Lemon joins me now. And I want to talk about Aretha in just a moment.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR, CNN TONIGHT: Yes.

BALDWIN: By you just sat down and you told me that you actually just got off the phone with Martice Johnson who was the student at the University of Virginia, who was bloodied, arrested.

LEMON: Yes. 20-year-old. Right.

BALDWIN: What did he say?

LEMON: I don't want to give away that the training confidence of our conversation but basically -- it's tough on him, you know, because he's dealing with school, he's dealing with this. He's dealing with other things. You know, trying to get a job and just being a student. And so it's really tough for him. I mean, he's trying to decide what his next move is going to be. I think you all -- you can expect a statement shortly from him and from his attorney.

BALDWIN: OK.

LEMON: But you know, he's dealing with some things. And you know, I relate to -- I did that. I was a kid. I took my older friends, you know, licensed to try to get into a bar.

BALDWIN: A bar.

LEMON: But I don't think -- I don't think he ever presented as has been portrayed in the media. I don't think he ever presented a fake I.D. And you know, I don't know what happens so I'm not going to cast versions on either the police or on the Martice or what have you. But a lot of us have been in that position. And I've been, you know, a little bit hammered in public when I was a college student and having fun. But that you know, so I don't know. But we would obviously love to sit down and speak with him and have him tell his story before a narrative is created about him, one which he cannot take back.

BALDWIN: Right.

LEMON: After a while. Yes.

BALDWIN: Right.

Wow. Hopefully he will talk to you about it.

LEMON: Yes.

BALDWIN: Let's move back to Aretha Franklin. So she's on with you, she's talking about her sons. You know, you recently -- you this week really talked about the "N" word specifically. And so what was she saying about that. That sometimes it's OK to --

LEMON: Yes. I asked her too. She said sometimes it's -- you know, African-American's use it as a term of endearment. She doesn't believe people are using it as much as they used to. So she actually thinks it's not, you know, -- it's for her, I think there are more important things than how we use the "N" word. I think for her it's more important that young people learn their history, especially young black people in light of Selma, the film "Selma." Because as I did, she did have people saying, "hey, I never really learned about this in school." I was shocked. She spoke, let's take a look.

[15:35:59] BALDWIN: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKLIN: It's very different because what is happening now was not happening back in the day. You know, you didn't have the Fergusons -- well you did but it was another form of that. But I think "Selma" plays a significant part coming out today and when it -- coming out when it did now. The youth today need to see and should know more about the African-

American history and where we have come from, talk about where we need to go, and so on. The importance of the vote.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Yes.

BALDWIN: Tonight you're focusing on the hands up, don't shoot, really became this rallying cry, you know, when you look at the facts of the case. This is back to Ferguson. We know that Michael Brown never actually put his hands up, and you have said over and over and people don't -- some people you're saying don't like hearing this, that it's a false narrative.

LEMON: Well, we questioned it early on because the evidence wasn't in.

BALDWIN: Right.

LEMON: And so at number of times because we want to be fair to everyone. We want to be fair to Michael Brown and his family and to Darren Wilson, the officer and his family as well. And so we questioned whether the hands up, don't shoot was a false narrative. And once the evidence came in from the report, everyone has said that. To us on our show, this isn't new, that hands up, don't shoot is a false narrative. As a matter of fact, we have been debating that issue for a while and now it seems that everyone else is starting to come around. Sometimes people don't like to hear the facts.

It doesn't negate what the protesters are doing because they feel that they're being targeted by police. Young black men, young people are being harassed by the police they feel. When you look at Martice Johnson.

BALDWIN: I was about to say.

LEMON: So it has become sort of a mean (ph) or narrative around the country. But the original part of it from the evidence, from the grand jury report, from the Department of Justice is that hands up, don't shoot never happened.

BALDWIN: But to the point of what's happening in Charlottesville, Virginia for example at the University of Virginia, I talked to two young students one of whom is Martice Johnson's roommate and they both were saying, "Brooke, we've been frightened, we've been by police brutality as we've seen incidents around the country and finally it's just hit home for us here in Charlottesville."

LEMON: Yes.

BALDWIN: When you talk to young people, what are they telling you?

LEMON: Yes.

They tell me the same thing. And it's not just young people of color. It is young people, if you look at ethnicity of the protesters, it very diverse. Look at the people at UVA.

BALDWIN: Yes.

LEMON: It's multiethnic.

BALDWIN: There was a young women who light taken. (INAUDIBLE)

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Yes. It's multiethnic. So young people feel many of them -- and I'm not speaking for all of them at universities around the country and just around the country that they are targets by police. Whether that's true or not, part of that we will investigate tonight on my show. But that's how they feel. And even if it's not true, you still have thousands and thousands of people who are marching in the street and they're saying that "Why?" What's going on in the country that you have that? And if it is true, why does it happen? If it's not true, why the disconnect?

BALDWIN: Don Lemon, we'll watch you as always, 10:00 o'clock tonight, here on CNN. Thank you, my friend. I really appreciate it.

LEMON: I appreciate it. Thank you.

BALDWIN: More on the hands up movement and much more beyond that.

Coming up next here on CNN. After hearing about this alleged attack, he's plot at his son's school, one father wrote a letter to the accused would-be attacker and it's not what you would expect. We'll talk about to the father live, coming up next.

Also ahead, did Jesus have a brother? The evidence that's been found may point to yes. This is all ahead of our documentary series. Just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:42:54] BALDWIN: And absolutely terrifying situation reportedly thwarted at in Oklahoma High School. Thanks to a few students who are now being held as heroes.

They told authorities of a possible school massacre threat. Before could be carried out, a 16-year-old student at Edmond North, high school is now reportedly accused of this plot. And as a parent finding out about all of this, I think would be beyond upsetting but the father of one freshman did not exactly have the typical response. His name is Charles Martin. Actually, opted to write a letter to the student accused of wanting to do such a thing and he wrote the letter entitled "to the teen who planned to kill my son."

Let me read part of this letter for you. It reads in part, "Maybe you are a bad person, but it seems you are just angry and desperate. That is understandable. High school is a tough place, it often made me angry and desperate, too, but then it ended and I went to college. Life got better in small measures until I finally reach the place in my life where I became happy and fulfilled. As impossible as it may seem now, you have a chance to that, too."

And his father, Charles Martin is joining me now. Charles, it's wonderful to have you on. I never read a letter like this ever. I think the person who really struck me is you really tried to show not just sympathy but empathy for this young man. Tell me why.

CHARLES MARTIN, DAD WHO WROTE ALLEGED SCHOOL ATTACK PLOTTER: Well, I have been very fortunate in my life to have been forgiven for a lot of my shortcomings and I think we all make a lot of mistakes. Some of them more grave than others. And I was fortunate enough to have received the forgiveness of a lot of people I've wronged. So it seemed that he is no more worthy or no less worthy of forgiveness from me.

We raise children as a community and I'm part of the community that helped raise this particular child. And I am a part of the reason that we failed to bring him to a more peaceful existence and so hopefully I can do at least a little bit to try and lead him back to a better place.

[15:45:05] BALDWIN: What were you -- what were you trying to achieve in writing this?

MARTIN: Well, I knew that there would -- the normal stories that would create around this event would be demonizing him, presenting him with a as something that is subhuman and I wanted to try and bring -- I wanted to try and personalize his experience because I don't think that most of us could ever reach this point where we would be willing to take another person's life just out of desperation and despair.

But I also don't think that he's a monster. I think he is just somebody who is lost and rather than just throwing a lot of vitriol his way, maybe it would be more constructive to bring in a different viewpoint that can allow us to find a place that we can meet together, a common experience which is how hard high school can be.

BALDWIN: Do you think -- let me throw a tough question at you though. Do you think had he not been caught, had he been successful in carrying out this plot, would you still feel the same way, would you still feel like the community wronged, you know, it didn't bring him up the way that y'all should have, that he wouldn't be this monster?

MARTIN: I think it would be much more difficult to reach that point. I've consider myself in a very fortunate position, that he didn't follow through. In fact, he went to lengths to put down the bread crumbs that would allow his friends to go to the administration that would then work with the police to stop the plan.

BALDWIN: Thank goodness.

MARTIN: Yes. I could be wrong, but I think he did that on purpose. I think he knew he was out of control and I think he needed help to be brought back away from that edge. So if he actually killed someone, then, yes, it would have been different. The anger that I felt at my child being threatened would have been much harder to overcome. It would be great to say that I could still find forgiveness at that point. But I never dealt with the death of a child. So I can't say, presume, how I would react to it. I can only say how I can react to this.

BALDWIN: If you were to finally be able to thank him as you mentioned at the end of your letter, just briefly, what would you say to him?

MARTIN: I would actually try and do whatever I can to get him to talk. I think I've said everything I really need to say about it in the letter that I wrote and presuming that he had read it. Which I -- if he does that, I think that would just be the start of a conversation where I would try and listen to what he has to say, understand where he's coming from and make him feel like at least something he did was this doing what he had to, to get caught was something that is worth praising.

I don't, I think --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: So many people just want to be heard. So many people just want to be listened to and just reading this beautiful letter, obviously came from such a place of strength as a father. I just really admire you, Charles Martin, thank you very much.

MARTIN: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

BALDWIN: Yes. Thank you.

Coming up next, could bones from thousands and thousands of years ago prove that Jesus had a brother? An expert from CNN's "Finding Jesus" series joins me next.

Plus, two days after he was reelected is Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu shifting on his controversial comments to voters when he said that there would never be a Palestinian state if he were reelected. What he is now saying ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:52:51] BALDWIN: Each Sunday night at 9:00, CNN brings you all new episodes of "Finding Jesus" it's a new series that takes a look at Jesus' life through relative left behind. And to this upcoming Sunday, it's a look at how bones found in Jerusalem could to lead to a surprising secret about Jesus' family.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID GIBSON, CO-AUTHOR, FINDING JESUS: We are just south of the old city of Jerusalem. There are a number of burial capes from the time of Jesus, right around here.

In the Jewish tradition, on the first anniversary of the death, they gather the bones of their deceased loved ones. Those bones are placed in an ossuary, the ossuaries marked with the name of the deceased, and then placed somewhere in the tomb.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Back in 1970s Jerusalem, there is a vibrant market for antique ossuaries.

ANDRE LAMARRE, RENOUNCED SCHOLAR OF ANCIENT ARAMAIC: I didn't see anything particular in this ossuary. It was set for many years at my parents' apartment together with several other ossuaries that they purchased at that time because it didn't put any special attention to this one.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: But in April 2002, the land invites Andre Lamarre, a renounced scholar of ancient Aramaic to examine some items in his collection.

Lamarre's attention is immediately drawn to the unidentified ossuary galland (ph) bought 30 years before.

Lamarre deciphers the mysterious inscription. It reads James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus.

LAMARRE: He found that there is a very high probability that it belonged to James, the brother of Jesus Christ.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

You just saw him in the clip. Here he is. He is Byron McCane, the Chair of the Department of Religion at Wofford College. And Professor, thank you so much for joining me. You know, we just heard about this discovery of James' ossuary. How significant of a find is this?

[15:54:58] PROFESSOR BYRON MCCANE, WOFFORD COLLEGE DEPARTMENT OF RELIGION CHAIRMAN: Well, it's either very significant or not significant at all. It may be that it's not significant at all because it's just another ossuary. It's a very common looking ossuary and those names, James, Joseph and Jesus, are very common names in first century Palestine. But if it should happen to be that James and that Joseph and that Jesus, then it's an extraordinary artifact.

BALDWIN: The episode this upcoming Sunday, it looks at whether Jesus had this secret brother and being the scholar who you are, is there any reference in scripture that Jesus ever had siblings?

MCCANE: Yes, there is. They are mentioned in the gospels and one of his brothers, James, becomes a leader of the early Christian group in Jerusalem. So there is little or no doubt that he did have brothers. By the way, speaking as an archaeologist, I would also say from that standpoint that he almost certainly had brothers. Families were much larger then mainly because many children died before they grew to adulthood.

In the skeletons that we find in ancient tombs, typically half to two- thirds of the individuals in a given tomb are 15 years of age or younger. So if a married couple wanted to have three grown children, they need to give birth to seven or eight or nine. So from both of these stand points, both scripture and archaeology, it's virtually certain Jesus had at least one brother.

BALDWIN: Seems so young. With your archaeology work, I know you have done excavating in Israel and Jordan and Italy. Just can you tell me in those trips what have you found? What have you personally discovered about Jesus that even maybe those who read scripture, are very familiar with the word, may not know?

MCCANE: Well, I think the most lasting impression is how deeply and thoroughly the portrait of Jesus that we see in the new testament fits the material culture of the time, whether we're talking about the houses or the roads or the temple in Jerusalem or even ossuaries, Jesus is a figure who is deeply immersed in that world.

Speaking of ossuaries for example, and your exert from the show, made this clear that the Jews in Jesus' day buried their dead twice, once on the day they died and then a year later when they gathered the bones. So there were two burials, not one. And that explains the famous saying of Jesus let the dead bury their own dead because he's talking about two burials. The first one is takes place on the day of death. The second one takes place a year later when the bones are gathered. So Jesus is very much a first century Galilean Jew.

BALDWIN: OK. Byron McCain, thank you so much, from Wafford College, your expertise. We'll be tuned in, of course, Sunday night all new episode of "Finding Jesus" Sunday 9:00 o'clock here on CNN.

Meantime, moments (ph) ago, police who are trying to track down this real time villain who disguised himself as Darth Vader, robbed the bank in North Carolina. Here is Jeanne Moos.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Talk about a teller with a story to tell. Darth Vader demanding money at a Credit Union in Pineville, North Carolina. Though there were no reports of heavy breathing. And instead of his usual light saber, this Darth Vader was wielding what police called a long gun.

He had a gun and everything?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. See him, he's all right there.

MOOS: The suspect got away with an undisclosed amount of cash, escaping not in a star fighter but a Chevy suburban. This isn't the first bank robbed by Darth Vader. It's not even the second. There have been at least three, one robbed at Toledo, Ohio bank, another robbed the bank on Long Island almost five years ago. Police are still looking for him. At the time a look-alike distanced himself from the robber.

DARTH VADER: On a more personal note, a blue cape, seriously, does this cape look blue to you?

MOSS: Robbers have disguised themselves as everything from a construction worker to Santa to nuns. Nuns right out of a heist movie "the town." One guy tried to hide his identity by duct taping tree branches to himself. He robbed a bank on, no kidding, Elm Street in Manchester, New Hampshire. Police arrested him the next day. And how about this head scratcher? A 19-year-old tried to rob a San

Diego convenience store dressed as Gumby. The clerk thought it was a joke and didn't give him any money.

GUMBY: Oh, no!

MOOS: Gumby eventually turned himself and his costume in to police.

Some disguises are so tacky, they should have just called the police, they should have called the fashion police. Suspects wearing underwear on their heads, plaid Boxers, a thong and that's the dark side. Stick to being a piggy bank rather than robbing a real one, Darth Vader.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Jeanne Moos, thank you.

I'm Brooke Baldwin, with "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts now.