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Co-pilot Deliberately Crashed Plane; FBI Asked To Help In Plane Crash Investigation; Grieving Families Visit Plane Crash Area; Two Accused of Supporting ISIS. Aired 1-1:30p ET
Aired March 26, 2015 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer. It's 1:00 p.m. here in Washington, 6:00 p.m. in France and Germany, 8:00 p.m. in Yemen and Iraq. Wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
BLITZER: And we've got the breaking news. A deliberate attempt to destroy the aircraft, that's the stunning conclusion from the prosecutor about what led -- what led to the crash of Germanwings Flight 9525. And it marks a shocking twist in the investigation. The prosecutor now says the co-pilot apparently crashed the plane into the French Alps on purpose. Among the reasons for that conclusion, after the pilot left the cockpit, the co-pilot refused to let him back in, even when he was banging on the door and screaming. The co-pilot activated the plane's fateful descent. The prosecutor says that can only be voluntary.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRICE ROBIN, FRENCH PUBLIC PROSECUTOR, MARSEILLE: We can conclude that in all circumstances it's deliberate. At the moment, I consider it to be deliberate. First of all, refusing entry to the cockpit. Second, maneuvering the lever for loss of altitude. When you said it's not so much, but it is a thousand meters a minute as if he was landing. We're above the mountains, aren't we? So, -- and there's no other airport which could receive an airbus 320 anywhere near.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Officials with the airlines parent company, Lufthansa, say they're speechless that the co-pilot would deliberately crash the plane killing everyone on board, 150 people.
So, what do we know about this co-pilot? He's identified as Andreas Lubitz, 28 years old, a German national. He had been with the airline since September of 2013.
Let's bring in our Senior International Correspondent Fred Pleitgen. He's joining us live from Cologne, Germany. I understand, Fred, you just had an exclusive interview with the Lufthansa CEO. Tell us what he told you. FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes,
absolutely Wolf. I just talked to Carsten Spohr about a wider range of issues, of course pertaining to this case. And there were two main points that he really wanted to get. One of them was the mental stability of this co-pilot, Andreas Lubitz. And he said there that there were absolutely no indications, at least to Lufthansa, to its evaluation system, that he might have been mentally instable, that he might have had any sort of depression issues.
He also said that he believes that this is what he calls an isolated case. This is someone who -- where there was no indication of this. This is not an indication that, perhaps, their system of evaluating mental issues with their pilots might be flawed. However, they also said they would re-evaluate it as well.
Now, of course, I also asked him how he could be so certain that all of this was done deliberately with criminal intent. Let's listen in to what Carsten Spohr had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARSTEN SPOHR, CEO, LUFTHANA: Apparently, after the pilot -- after the captain has left the cockpit, he tried to regain access were there were knocks on the doors, according to the French authorities and the door was either kept locked or not opened in the way it was supposed to be and that for sure is a clear indication that the remaining pilot, the co-pilot, didn't want the captain to return.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PLEITGEN: So, he clearly said that the co-pilot did not want the captain to reenter into the cockpit. Of course, then there was that struggle as the captain tried to get entry somehow. However, he also said that the door of that airplane would have been reinforced and, therefore, it would've been all but impossible for the captain to get back in there.
Now, the other thing that, of course, he wanted to make very clear is that the airline is absolutely devastated that this would have happened. He said that the relatives of the victims of those 150 people who were killed were informed before the media actually was. And he does say that, of course, they are going to be cared for moving forward as well -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Do we know if this co-pilot, Andrea Lubitz, had undergone any type of psychological screening either before he was hired or during his period as a pilot -- as a co-pilot?
PLEITGEN: Well, you know what, this is interesting because I talked to him about this as well. And he said that while there aren't any specific tests for mental fitness after you've become a pilot, the entire process of becoming a pilot, of undergoing the training is one that puts cadets under mental strain all the time. It's part of being a pilot. But they see what happens when these cadets are in stress situations. They see how good they are at multi-tasking under pressure, for instance. So, he said the whole process is one that tries to evaluate whether these people are mentally strong.
[13:05:17] Now, again, I asked him whether or not they might need more safeguards in this in the future, not only with people who are trying to become pilots, but also with people who are pilots already, who are duty already. And he said that he believes the system that Lufthansa has in place was one that is up to international standards, is one that has worked very well for the company over the past six decades.
But he also said that, of course, in light of what happened, they are going to re-evaluate that. But he also said Lufthansa has a system in place that if someone is flying with someone who they believe is mentally instable or has any sort of other issues, be it alcoholism or anything else, that there is a process of reporting, reporting anonymously and that you have to report that person. And, apparently, with Andreas Lubitz, there were no other issues that he had with any other colleagues in the past -- Wolf.
BLITZER: But we are told, Fred, that he did take a period of a few months during his training. He took a leave for some unexplained reason.
PLEITGEN: Yes. Yes.
BLITZER: Do we know why he did that?
PLEITGEN: No, we don't. And this was something that Carsten actually said earlier today as well is that he did take a leave of several months. He said this was not something necessarily uncommon when people are trying to become pilots. But he said there was no indication to them or no knowledge that they had that this might have been due to any sort of psychological issues. Of course, that is something that very much is going to be looked into.
This is something that now is a criminal investigation as well and that certainly the past of Andreas Lubitz is certainly also something that investigators are going to be looking into. And it's probably very specifically that time that he took off during his training and see whether or not it might have had something to do with what happened here in the past couple of days, whether or not he might have had mental issues in the past that might have been contributed or might have been a big factor in him bringing that plane down.
BLITZER: All right. Fred Pleitgen in Cologne, Germany for us. Stand by.
This certainly takes the investigation in a new direction and it gives a lot -- a lot to discuss with our panel of experts. Joining us now, Peter Goelz, the former managing director of the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board. Also, Tom Fuentes is here, our Law Enforcement Analyst, the former FBI assistant director. Les Abend is a CNN Aviation Analyst. He's an airline captain and contributing editor for "Flying" magazine. And Richard Quest is our CNN Aviation Correspondent.
Peter, let's start with that locked cockpit. We understand why they now lock those cockpits after 911 -- after what happened on 911. But isn't there any procedure if one person -- one co-pilot is left inside for that pilot who may have gone to the men's room or whatever to get back inside?
PETER GOELZ, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, there isn't and that's the problem. I mean, this process was initiated after 911. And there were widespread meetings and working groups to discuss what was the appropriate response. And the issue was we were facing a new type of terrorism. That, you know, up until 911, pilots were instructed to cooperate with the hijackers. After 911, the decision was made we have to arm the cockpit door so it cannot be broached. And it was discussed, maybe we should give one of the flight cabin crew a special code. But there was no way that could be kept secret. And it was decided that the lesser of evils was, once it's locked, it's locked.
BLITZER: That's it. Unintended consequences in this particular case. The FBI now has been brought into the investigation at the request, Tom, of the French government, right?
TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Right.
BLITZER: What do they -- what do they want the FBI to do?
FUENTES: Well, the FBI would be checking all of the databases here in the U.S., no-fly lists, our terrorist watch lists. And then, --
BLITZER: For this co-pilot.
FUENTES: -- and the co-pilot -- Yes and anybody else at the time but the co-pilot specifically now. And the co-pilot also did some training in the U.S. So, they would be looking at -- in the places that he traveled. You see a picture of the co-pilots in front of the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco. So, you know, they would be looking at, who was he with? Who did he talk to? Who did he call? Did he have a cell phone here in the U.S.? And then, you know, they would run all of the phone numbers that they have, any other identifying information on him through FBI databases.
BLITZER: And so, they'd learn as much as possible about this co-pilot which is understandable. Les, this is all based on the information from the plane's cockpit voice recorder. They could obviously hear stuff that's going on inside the cockpit, even outside the cockpit. I want you to listen to what the prosecutor said responding to questions about whether the co-pilot had some kind of medical emergency when he was alone inside the cockpit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[13:10:00] ROBIN: It does seem that he was breathing normally. It's not the breathing of somebody who's having a stroke or a heart attack. And he doesn't say anything. Not one word. I repeat it, absolute silence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Can they conclude from just the recording of the breathing that he wasn't in some sort of medical distress? LES ABEND, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, you know, that's hard to say,
Wolf. I mean, it's -- this young man was probably contemplating what he was going to do all that time. It was a short period of time at cruise altitude. It's very curious to me why that -- you know, at that moment, only a short period of time in cruise altitude, this -- the captain chose that moment to go to the lavatory, get a cup of coffee and then he took his opportunity then. I mean, it almost seemed as that he was contemplating this and this was an instantaneous decision that he made.
But I want to add to Tom Fuentes' point with reference to the -- how the FBI got -- gets involved. The TSA also got involved long before he ever even got to his flight training because he's got to be screened, any non-U.S. citizen. I'm a flight instructor with small airplanes. I have to -- if I'm going to flight instruct somebody outside of this -- outside of the United States, I have to indicate that on the application. And they -- and they're vetted, to some degree. So, that is important.
But this whole thing is -- as an airline pilot, this hits me right in the gut. It's very disturbing to me. This is not something I would ever have conceived of from any of my fellow crew members. And in a way, one of my colleagues has destroyed the public trust and this is so important to really understand and comprehend and especially for the families. I just can't imagine.
BLITZER: And let me bring Richard Quest into this conversation as well. Lufthansa officials, Richard, they say the pilot, in this particular case, did nothing wrong when he went out of the cockpit. Let's say he was going to the men's room or whatever, that it was OK, apparently, to leave only the co-pilot in that cockpit. Although, I understand there are regulations, at least here in the United States, that one of the flight attendants is supposed to go into the cockpit so there's at least more than one person in the cockpit at all times. Is that right?
RICHARD QUEST, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Yes. There are two issues here, Wolf. The first is whether or not he did anything wrong leaving the cockpit. Well, the plain was already in the cruise, at that point. It was a short flight to Dusseldorf. So, if you're going to go and take a restroom break, that would be the time to do it before descent further down route. On the question of the two people in the cockpit, the U.S. does have a two-person rule. The rest of the world does not. Some countries require it, others don't.
Following MH-370, some airlines insisted on a two-person rule. In the last few hours, since this incident, Norwegian which flies into the U.S. and is a major -- one of the third largest low cost carrier in Europe. Norwegian has put out a statement saying that they will now require a two-person rule for their flights. Carsten Spohr of Lufthansa says that this is something they will now look at. But the truth, of course, is there needs to be a one size fits all on this. It's ridiculous that some countries have one rules, other countries don't. There needs to be a consensus. And my guess would be that consensus is a two-person rule. BLITZER: Yes, that certainly does make sense. All right, guys, stand by. There's a lot more news coming in. How does a captain get locked out of his own cockpit? Will this incident force a change in those rules that Richard was just talking about? That's coming up. Plus, the families of the victims, they're visiting the crash site today. We're going to go there live. Lots happening. Stay with us.
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[13:17:17] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: One hundred fifty lives lost in the deliberate act. It now seems the co-pilot of Flight 9525, quote, "wanted to destroy the aircraft." That assessment coming from the Marseille prosecutor, Brice Robin, based on what investigators have found.
We know that the captain was locked out of the cockpit after he left for some reason. He could be heard trying to force his way through the locked cockpit door. He was screaming. But was the crash planned all along?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRICE ROBIN, MARSEILLE PUBLIC PROSECUTOR (through translator): It's too early to anticipate, but it's clear that the co-pilot took advantage of the flight captain's leaving the cockpit. Could he have known beforehand? I really don't know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Let's get back to our panel to discuss all of this. Our aviation analyst, former NTSB managing director Peter Goelz is here with me in Washington, as is our law enforcement analyst, the former FBI assistant director, Tom Fuentes. Our business and aviation correspondent Richard Quest joins us from New York. And from London, our aviation analyst Les Abend.
Should we really, Peter, be all that surprised, if, in fact, the co- pilot deliberately decided, for whatever reason, to go ahead and take that plane and crash it into the French Alps? It's not the first time a pilot or a co-pilot has been - has done something like that. There have been several relatively recent examples, haven't there?
PETER GOELZ, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: There have been a number of cases. You know in 2000, Egypt Air, the co-pilot flew that plane into the ground. There were reports of -
BLITZER: That was off of Nantucket, Massachusetts, killing more than 200 people.
GOELZ: Off of Nantucket, 240 people or some odd people.
BLITZER: Yes.
GOELZ: Recently, in 2013, in Mozambique, a very similar situation was reported involving a smaller plane, the Embraer 190. But again, the investigates indicated that the - one of the flying pilots was locked out of the cabin and the plane was flown into the ground. And in general aviation, Les is a pilot, he trains GA pilots, it happens every year.
BLITZER: In general aviation, you mean private planes.
GOELZ: In private planes.
BLITZER: There was that SilkAir incident too, although -
GOELZ: That's right.
BLITZER: Right, Silk authorities denied that it was suicide, although U.S. officials believe it was, is that right?
GOELZ: That's right. We were the lead investigators. The Indonesians invited the NTSB in to conduct the investigation. We did. We determined that the most likely probable cause was that the pilot had flown the plane into the ground. He had had some financial reversals, some other psychological issues. Indonesia never accepted that. But the NTSB investigators were quite confident that's what happened.
BLITZER: Well, let me get Les into this conversation. How do you prevent that kind of stuff? How do you know if a pilot or a co-pilot is having some sort of mental issue or whatever and is willing to not only himself or herself, but also kill all the passengers?
[13:20:04] LES ABEND, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: That's a -- it's a - it's a good question, Wolf, and - but let's just say, this is not an epidemic with airline pilots. Let's just assure the public that we don't have these major stress issues where this is something that we're considering on every flight.
How is it happening? We - we are hired for reason. We're hired because we're independent and autonomous enough to handle a lot of stress and that we can deal with a multi-tasking situation, which also involves saying to ourselves, are we fit to fly? And matter of fact, in this day and age, I, before I took the trip here to London, had to sign something that specifically said, am I fit to fly? Am I fit to fly healthy wise? In other words, do I have a cold or fever, something? Do I - am I - do I have enough rest? So am I fatigued? And this can translate also into the psychological aspect.
We police our own because we've been policing our own physical health all these years. We police our own. We're not phycologists. I won't go there. But the - but the bottom line is, we know when somebody's having an issue. And I fly with some extraordinary people and we do some - these folks, even if they're having some problems at home, are able to compartmentalize. That's why they're pilots. That's why they're good at what they do.
Do things come up from time to time, like in any professional life? Absolutely. And they can be addressed both our union and the company work together to try to get these folks help. Every recurrent training, we are told about this and reinforced that this is available to us.
BLITZER: Richard Quest, what's your analysis?
RICHARD QUEST, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: I don't - I think you can go so far as to try and protect against the rogue pilot or the pilot that wants to do (INAUDIBLE), but you can only go so far. I'm not sure what more you do. You see, Wolf, at the end of the day, there is a man or a woman that has their hands on the wheel of the - or the side stick. And at a particular point, they are going to lift that plane into the air or put that plane down onto the ground. And, yes, there may be moments when they can do it dramatically by getting rid of somebody out of the cockpit and there could be a two-cockpit rule and all those sort of things. But if a pilot really wants to commit suicide in that way, there are ways to do it.
And I think that as Les Abend says, there's not an epidemic. We've had two or three -- all right, high profile cases. But I'm not sure what more you do short of having everybody looking over their shoulder and the - and the lack of - the essential lack of trust. If you lose trust in your colleague in the cockpit, you will be far worse off than a couple of occasions where this has happened.
BLITZER: You know, Tom Fuentes, a year ago, as we all know, MH-370 disappeared. No cockpit voice recorder. No flight data recorder. We have no idea where that plane is. It presumably is in the bottom of the ocean someplace. There was a lot of speculation early on that maybe one of those pilots from MH-370 wanted to do what we just saw apparently happen with this plane in the French Alps. This is going to revive that speculation as a result of what has now been declared by the authority in France and Germany.
TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: It probably will. But I spoke with a senior Malaysian police officer just about two weeks ago and - who told me again that, to date, nothing has been determined about the captain or the co-pilot on that flight to indicate any, any psychological problem, mental problem, reason to commit suicide and crash that plane on purpose. And that may happen in this case. When the investigators in Germany examine the co-pilot's hard drives and social media, e-mail accounts, phone calls, who he's talked to, what he's said to various friends, colleagues, neighbors, they may find nothing. They may find no indication for why he did this. And as Miles O'Brien has said frequently, there's no black boxes inside people's heads in that cockpit.
BLITZER: Yes. Well, if they find the black boxes from the Malaysian plane, maybe we'll get a clue as to what happened if, in fact, the pilot or co-pilot may have been responsible for the disappear -
FUENTES: But maybe only a clue.
BLITZER: Well, maybe. We'll see if we ever - if we ever find those black boxes.
FUENTES: Right.
BLITZER: And they haven't even found a scrap of that plane yet.
FUENTES: Right. BLITZER: So, obviously, that mystery continues.
Everybody stand by. Much more coming up on the crash of Flight 9525. Much more on the victims, their grieving families.
Also, there's other major news we're watching right now. Air strikes in Yemen. Saudi Arabia taking the lead with fighter planes and ground troops, but the damage to anti-terror efforts may be beyond salvage right now. We're taking a closer look. The House Homeland Security Committee chairman here in Washington, Congressman Mike McCaul, he's standing by live.
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[13:28:08] BLITZER: We'll get back to the breaking news on that plane crash in the French Alps. Much more information coming in right now. Horrendous information.
But there's other news that's breaking right now just coming in to CNN, including this disturbing development. A United States Army National Guard soldier and his cousin now face charges of conspiring to provide material support to the terrorist group ISIS. Federal prosecutors say both men were arrested yesterday. Our justice reporter, Evan Perez, is joining us with the latest.
This is very disturbing information. Tell us what we know.
EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, Wolf, this is very, very disturbing. Hasan Edmonds is a 22-year-old specialist with the Army National Guard. He was arrested at Midway Airport as he was trying to get on a flight to go to Cairo and eventually to try to fight in Syria. Apparently he knows that the government is looking for people who are trying to go through Turkey to try to get to Syria, so he decided he was going to try this route instead.
His cousin, Jonas Edmonds, 29 years old, is also charged in this case. And according to the Justice Department, what he's accused of doing, he was planning that once his cousin left the country, that he was going to use his Army uniform to try to attack a U.S. military facility in Illinois.
BLITZER: How did this guy get on the FBI, the investigators' radar?
PEREZ: Well, it looks like what happened is that the FBI noticed that there was some - there was some postings online. So an FBI undercover agent contacted Hasan Edmonds and decided to start a conversation, over which a period of several months they describe plots to try to go join ISIS and do - essentially to try to carry out attacks both here, inspired by what they saw happen in Paris, by the way, and also carry out - try to join ISIS to try to carry out attacks there.
[13:29:54] I should note that in the last 18 months, Wolf, the national security division at the Justice Department has prosecuted or is prosecuting - in the process of prosecuting 32 people for traveling or trying to provide some kind of assistance to terrorist groups. Eighteen of those have involved ISIS.
