Return to Transcripts main page

@THISHOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA

Lubitz Hid Illness From Airline; Officials Remove Evidence From Home of Germanwings Co-pilot; Steep Slopes, Weather Slow Recovery Efforts. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired March 27, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[11:00:00] KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Joining us. I'm Kate Bolduan.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good Morning. I'm John Berman. Major breaking developments in the investigation into the crash of Germanwings Flight 9525. Prosecutors say Andreas Lubitz, the co-pilot that they believe deliberately killed 149 other people, had some kind of illness or condition that he was hiding from his employer. He had been deemed him unfit to work, and he was keeping it secret. They found medical leave notes that he had ripped up, including one from the day of the crash. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTOPHER KUMPA, GERMAN PROSECUTOR: We have found a letter that indicated that he was declared, by a medical doctor unfit to work, that were found slashed in the dustbin. So, we have reason to believe that he hid his illness.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: And what we don't know yet is what kind of illness that Lubitz was dealing with. He did not leave any kind of final note or letter. You are seeing the evidence taken out, from of his homes, but investigators, they did search those homes, removing papers that may reveal more about why he deliberately flew the plane into the French Alps.

But meanwhile, Lufthansa, the parent company of Germanwings, together with other German airlines, announced today an immediate change in policy, now instituting a two-person rule in the cockpit. All U.S. airlines already have that rule in place. We're covering the fast- moving story for you as best we can. CNN reporters -- we have reporters in all of the key locations in France and Germany, including outside the co-pilot's apartment.

But let's first get to Senior International Correspondent, Fred Pleitgen. He's outside Germanwings headquarters in Cologne, Germany. So, Fred, what more have you learned about what exactly investigators have found in those medical documents?

FRED PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it is interesting, Kate, because they searched the places where Andreas Lubitz's lived, which in the one hand is in the town of Montabaur, where he lives with his parents and his brother, but he also has an apartment in the town of Dusseldorf. And all of the indications that we are getting is that the medical records that were found, were found at that apartment, in Dusseldorf, which is now cordoned off by law enforcement authorities.

Now, what the public prosecutor said was not very much. He gave quite a short statement, however, there are some interesting facts there in that statement. He said that the medical records, that they found, indicated that Lubitz had been hiding this illness for quite a while. That he had been in treatment, for a while, for this illness. Did not specify how long exactly it was, of course. Also, didn't say whether or not this is a mental condition that he had, or whether or not this might have been something more of a physical condition.

But, it did say that he was trying to hide it for quite a while, and also, those letters that were found, those sick letters, were not just for the day that he was supposed to fly, but for several days as well. It seems as though this wasn't the first time that he was doing this, that destroying sick letters that he was getting from his doctor. So, he had been under care from a doctor for quite a while, and all of this unknown to his employer.

I was able to speak to the CEO of Lufthansa just yesterday, and he said that by their accounts, he was 100 percent fit to fly. He said that they had -- he had gone through the training, of course, to become a pilot. There's medical evaluation that these pilots have to go through every year, and every time, he was deemed 100 percent fit to fly. They also said there was no indication, as far as the flight performance was concerned, that there were any sort of issues. But now these documents, that have been found, seem to paint a pretty clear picture that he was something hiding that was very, very significant to his performance at work. And that he was indeed deemed unfit to fly by his own doctors. So major new developments, and I do believe that we're going to hear more about what exactly this illness was that he was suffering from, possibly today, maybe in the coming days.

BOLDUAN: Yes, I mean, painting a clear picture, and that pretty clear picture should be pretty clear exactly what he was suffering from or battling in the documents, and we hope to learn more today. Fred Pleitgen, covering it all for us, right there in Cologne, Germany. Fred, thank you so much. John?

BERMAN: Let's go to Dusseldorf now. That is where the apartment was where they took these documents, these crucial documents, showing that this pilot, doctors believe, was unfit to fly. Our Will Ripley is outside the apartment of Andreas Lubitz, in Dusseldorf. Will joins us by phone right now. Will, give us a sense of the situation there now.

WILL RIPEY, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: (via telephone) Well, this is a very quiet area, John, and people are quite astonished at what has been taking place here. Of course, police investigators swarmed this area, removed the evidence. You've seen the video, and we've heard what was inside the apartment, specially what was inside one of the trash bins in Andreas Lubitz' apartment.

[11:04:52] Medical notes, that were ripped up, notes indicating that the 27-year-old, who by all accounts, was in terrific shape, was running in marathons, had been suffering some sort of an illness, an ongoing illness the doctors were treating him for. Now, again, we are talking about a young man that physically appears to be in good shape. You can see where the speculation is going here about what kind of condition, what kind of illness he may have been suffering from. Neighbors around here, John, say there were no outward signs, that there was anything wrong, with this young man. So, understandably, people here very shocked to see the police coming here and removing these pieces of evidence.

BERMAN: He was hiding it from his employers that there were something wrong, apparently and clearly keeping it hidden from the neighbors as well. Will Ripley in Dusseldorf. Thanks so much, Will.

BOLDUAN: Another critical component of the tragedy is the incredibly difficult effort to recover the victims' bodies and the plane's debris, including the other crucial piece of evidence out there, the other black box. The difficulty of that task really cannot be overstated given the steep and rugged terrain, where the plane went down, the freezing weather they've been dealing with and the vast debris field that they're up against.

Erin McLaughlin is in Verne, the village closest to the crash site where families of the victims have gathered. So Erin what is happening on that front right now? Erin, can you hear me? It's Kate Bolduan. Looks like we're having a communication issue with Erin, we'll try to reconnect with her and get back there to Verne. This is the crash site where - this is the closest town to the crash site. I think we've now reconnected with Erin. Let's try one more time. Erin, can you hear me?

ERIN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi Kate. Yes, I can. Here in (INAUDIBLE), the recovery effort is well underway. All day we've been seeing choppers flying overhead going to the crash site, the site itself, proving to be especially challenging for these investigators. The terrain is icy and rugged. It's very steep. Safety for those investigators is a concern. They're actually having to be tethered to either a police officer, a firefighter or a mountaineering expert to ensure their safety.

And their priority today, really being twofold. First, to find that other black box. The flight recorder that investigators believe will give them more information into how that plane was being flown in those final moments. And then their other priority, of course, is to try and collect and identify human remains, and those have been airlifted today, out of the site, to a nearby valley.

And in that valley, the remains are loaded into boxes before being put on to refrigerated trucks and brought to another center where the DNA analysis is under way. But the windy conditions today, proving to be problematic, slowing things down. Investigators say if the wind continues at this rate, it could take them 10 to 15 days to clear the site. And then -- then DNA analysis could take weeks. And investigators say that the bodies will not be returned to the families until that DNA analysis process is complete. So it could be a very agonizing wait for the families and friends of the victims. Kate? BOLDUAN: That's exactly what I was thinking, you know? They've got to

get -- the task at hand obviously is to recover everything securely and safely, but then, at the very same time, the families of these victims are there waiting, standing by to just learn any final details about their loved ones that they lost. Erin McLaughlin, near the crash site for us, thank you so much.

[11:07:48] BERMAN: The breaking news, of course, today, a doctor's note saying this co-pilot was unfit to work, yet just yesterday, the CEO of Lufthansa says they believes that he was 100 percent fit to fly. How can there be a discrepancy, and what can be done to make sure there is not something like this that ever happens again.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: This morning, prosecutors are trying to find out why the co- pilot of Germanwings Flight 9525 deliberately crashed the plane.

BERMAN: Investigators removed bags of evidence, from his apartment, including this: the dramatic revelation that there was a note from a doctor deeming him unfit to work. He had apparently been keeping secret from his employers.

I want to bring in David Soucie, CNN Aviation Analyst, and Jim Clemente, Retired FBI Supervisory Special Agent and Profiler. David, let me start with you here. The news this morning, coming out just over the last several hours, there was a doctor's not deeming this co- pilot unfit to work, yet just yesterday, we heard from the CEO of Lufthansa that it was their belief that he was 100 percent fit to fly. There seems to be and incredibly, dangerous discrepancy here.

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, it indicates, John, is that there was some way that the pilot didn't have to report or couldn't report to his medical examiner. But, remember that the medical examiner is not your regular doctor, The medical examiner is someone you see every year or possibly every six months, depending on your ratings. So, that's not where you would go if you have a cold. It's not where you would go if you had something else. So I think its a jump to say that that particular note would have made him unfit though.

BERMAN: But, David, if someone has declared him unfit to work, is isn't that something that an airline, somehow, needs to know. There are people -

SOUCIE: Absolutely.

BERMAN: -- whose lives are in his hands. So someone deemed him unfit to work and the airline clearly didn't know.

SOUCIE: Yes, I didn't realize that I actually said unfit to work, I thought that it was an excuse slip that said you can take these days off, but if it actually says he's unfit to work, then that is his responsibility to report. It says that right on his certificate that he has to maintain this fit-for-duty state, and if he wasn't, he should not have been flying. BOLDUAN: And, Jim, a lot of this is coming out because of the investigative work. A lot of the documents that they're found in the rubbish bin, in his apartment, this is part of the investigation that's going into who is this man, because there is such a juxtaposition between what the airline knew of him, and what, clearly, they found in terms of the investigation his apartment. As they are going through it, the FBI is involved, where are they in the investigation?

Do you think they know exactly what, essentially, they believe is the, I don't know if you can call it a motive, but what is behind this, in the documents, because they've come out so quickly, I think, to give a lot of detail in what they've found.

[11:15:00] JIM CLEMENTE, RETIRED FBI SUPERVISORY SPECIAL AGENT AND PROFILER: Well, I think that they're in the midst of what we call psychological autopsy, and they're trying to determine everything they can about this guy's background, his mental status, his physical status. Sound to me like he's unfit to work, if it is true, must be something psychological, because there's nothing physically obvious to anybody that worked with him, that he shouldn't be at the job.

So it must be something going on with him psychologically, or a very serious medical condition that would affect him psychologically as well. So I think this information, I think they're going to get all of his the medical records, they're going to have to get through any kind of HIPAA regulations there, but when they get the medical records, they'll have a much better picture of what is going on in his brain.

BERMAN: Hey, Jim, in your experience profiling, is there some kind of trigger that can send someone or is there any way to detect it when someone goes from perhaps having some kind of mental illness or the disorder, that they are dealing with, perhaps, dealing with effectively or a sickness, a physical sickness, is there a trigger that sends them from that into something homicidal?

CLEMENTE: Well, the thing about it is that it's different for every single person. You couldn't just say generically what would cause a person to do this, and it is difficult to predict this type of behavior, because people will have different responses. They maybe emotional for one minute, and then get over it the next minute. But I think, in this situation, there were probably some indicators, obviously that told the doctor, that he was not fit to work.

And those indicators probably leaked out to other people in his life. I think it's really going to be important that if doctors know this kind of information, know what his profession, that they have a obligation to break any kind of privacy rules to make sure their safety rules are complied with.

BOLDUAN: Now, David, when you've got the unfit to work, you've got this element looking into this pilot, but it also has the airline industry over there, especially, kind of looking into themselves, and looking at the policies, already, we have seen changes. Lufthansa, other German airlines going to this two-person in the cockpit rule. What else do you expect that the airline industry going to be examining in light of what is just a horrific tragedy that nobody can really wrap their mind around?

SOURCIE: I think there will be things that change, but nothing new. It's things that have been - what's happened is over the last few years, there's been a lot of recommendations by the NTSB, by the BEA in France, a lot of recommendations base --

BOLDUAN: And it comes down to money, and resources?

SOURCIE: It kind of does. It's more of the political push, the need to protect the idea that this is a safe industry, and it is a safe industry, and I want to caution that we have been talk a lot about all these things. We've been talking about a lot of how unsafe this and how unsafe that is. It's still extremely safe and there's a lot of things that we talk about that continue to assess these new improvements and how much safer it would even make it than that.

BOLDUAN: And unfortunately, it is a tragic accident like this that becomes the motivating factor to push the changes through the industry.

SOUCIE: It always - That's what it takes sometimes.

BOLDUAN: David, thank you so much. Jim, thank you as well. Very interesting and important insight into this. All of the twists and turns, John, that we continue to see in this.

[11:18:07] BERMAN: Yes, twist and turns indeed. Right now, the entire screening system is under scrutiny. Is there a loop hole in the system that allowed this to happen? Were going to speak to a medical examiner, a senior official, who says yes, there is a loop hole and it needs to be examined. Next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: Major new clues uncovered this morning revealing secrets held by the co-pilot for Germanwings Flight 9525. He had some kind of condition that he was hiding from this employer. A German prosecutor says investigator found a medical leave note from a doctor issued to Andreas Lubitz.

BOLDUAN: Prosecutors also say that he had ripped up doctors' notes that had deemed him unfit for work, saying that they think had had this condition for quite awhile and had, obviously, had been hiding it for quite a while.

Let's bring in Jacqueline Brunetti, she's a Senior Aviation Medical Examiner, a private physician. You are one of those people that you do these routine checks of these pilots. They come to see you. You're the doctor that makes this determination, if you will. When you heard this detail coming out, that he had notes indicated that he's unfit to work, he had been hiding it from his employer for quite some time, how is that possible?

JACQUELINE BRUNETTI, SENIOR AVIATION MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, Kate, I've been doing this for 20 years, and over 20 years, and I'm -- I been taking care of pilots who have had substance abuse problems, and depression problems. What's critical, in these issues, is that the pilot self-reports and that's been the rule all along with the flying public.

BOLDUAN: It seems there's a whole room for error or a loophole or withhold or the not self-reporting. Do you -- how often do you think that happens?

BRUNETTI: It's very difficult to tell. One of the reasons why the FAA did turn around and allow anti-depressants, is because there was some indication that pilots were not reporting the fact that they were on anti-depressant medications. So it is there. You make the assumption that the pilot will be truthful. There are consequences with not being truthful on the medical form, but there' s really no way of knowing how often that occurs. I would say that it's the minority of airmen, who do not self-report things of that nature, that are that serious.

BERMAN: If you do not self-report, if you do not come forward with the truth, is there any kind of safety net to detect it within the system?

BRUNETTI: Well -- that's a very good question. And I think that the, the issues that are placed on the pilot, with respect to a $25,000 fine, if they lie, if there is an accident down the line, they may not be insurable, which is another issue that these pilots need to keep in mind. But if the pilot doesn't report, and there's no apparent finding on their routine FAA physicals, that is a very difficult thing to identify.

[11:24: 55] BERMAN: And on those routine physicals, you are checking for what? Your checking for affect in a personality situation, if they're acting angry or strange when they present to you, but you're not doing any kind of psychological screening as part of these medical examines, are you?

BRUNETTI: No, no there is not a strict, psychological screen in routine medical work-up. You know, you get an idea of the pilot's affect, how they walk in, if they're angry, if there's anything else in the questioning of that pilot that might want you to delve a little further into what might be going on in their life. We usually ask general questions: how is their health, how are they feeling, is there anything stressful in their lives. But again, it's the self-reporting piece that's so critical in all of this.

BOLDUAN: Is that a failure that of the system, though. That there isn't a more extensive psychological screening as part of it. I don't know if we can assume that every physician, maybe, is capable or has adequate h training or time to do that kind of screening in these regular checkups. But is that a failure of the system? Are we seeing a failure in the system right here?

BRUNETTI: No, I don't think we're seeing a failure in the system. You're talking about a less than 1 percent incidence of something like this happening. And if you think about the fact that there are 30 million departures, commercial departures, that take place annually, we're talking about a real outlier here. And to really make a huge change, in the system, to try and create a

safety net for something that happened so rarely, would be very difficult and may have unintended consequences. When you think about just general medical testing, when you're testing for heart disease, your testing for cancer, I do as a radiologist, at Holy Name Hospital in Teaneck, I read all of the cancer imaging, You can see a normal scan, and then a month later, there maybe something new that was not apparent or wasn't large enough to see on the original sight, so it's not a failure of the system.

BOLDUAN: I cannot imagine, though, this is probably one of your worst fears, that if there is a medical condition, you could never say that the medical condition would lead somebody to mass murder, but this is probably one of your worst fears as you're checking these pilots.

BRUNETTI: Oh, well, yes. Its a -- you think about it, and I think about it, and I try very hard to, you know, sort of assess the airmen, typically if an airmen who I've not seen before, most of my pilots, or pilots I've seen for years and I have a good handle on their health, and their mental well-being.

BOLDUAN: One thing that we're seeing in this is how important your job is. Jacqueline Brunetti, thank you so much for coming in and helping us understand a little better. We really appreciate it.

BRUNETTI: Thank you.

[11:27:41] BOLDUAN: Coming up for us AT THIS HOUR, we're going to head back to the headquarters of Germanwings for the very latest and breaking information on what may have lead to the crash of Flight 9525.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)