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@THISHOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA

Indiana Governor Mike Pence Press Conference. Aired 11:30-12p ET

Aired March 31, 2015 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[11:30:00] MIKE PENCE, (R), GOVERNOR OF INDIANA: -- might add the University of Notre Dame among others filed federal lawsuits to challenge Obamacare under the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. The Supreme Court and the majority of opinion last year upheld the right of a private business owner under the Religious Freedom Act, citing the act. But here's the background. In 1993, the federal law was signed by President Clinton. In 1997, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that the act did not apply to states that did not have their own statute. And that's why you have 19 states that have adopted statutes. You have about 11 other states that have adopted it in the case law, the balancing test, the standard. Indiana never did. In the wake of the Hobby Lobby opinion, to ensure in our courts we have the same scrutiny when their religious liberty they believe is infringed upon, the general assembly moved this legislation, and that was the precipitating event.

Yes, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE QUESTION)

PENCE: People are entitled to their opinions. But this law does not create a license to discriminate. And this law does not give businesses a right to deny services to anyone. I think it would be helpful if the general assembly were to get this legislation to my desk that made that clear and made that clear in the statute.

Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE QUESTION)

PENCE: I didn't hear the first part of your question, Tony. Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE QUESTION)

PENCE: The purpose of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act is to give the people of this country the opportunity to go into our courts, state now and federal for more than 20 years, where they believe that government action has imposed and hinged upon their religious liberty. That's the foundation of this idea. This is about -- this is about restraining government overreach. And I want to say again, the reason why this was such a broad and bipartisan measure over much of the last two decades, is because every American cherishes religious liberty. We all understand the importance of the freedom of conscious. It's enshrined in our Constitution. It's enshrined in the Constitution of the state of Indiana. And that's what this is about.

And, look, I understand that the perception of this has, you know, has gone far afield from what the law really is. We've been doing our level best to correct that perception, however imperfectly. And we'll continue to do that.

I want to say, I am extremely grateful for voices around the country who stepped up and stood by Indiana, as we stand by this law. But that being said, as governor of the state of Indiana, I believe it would be the right thing to do to move legislation to make it clear this law does not give businesses a right to deny services to anyone.

Tom, do you have one?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE QUESTION)

PENCE: Those conversations are ongoing. But I'm -- you know, I remain very hopeful that if we focus on the principle misperception that we will garner support, we will restore confidence, and we'll be able to move forward.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Is that a difference statewide nondiscrimination law that protects sexual orientation?

PENCE: Well, I think a number of the 30 states are also in the same position that Indiana is in and the same position that Indiana is in. But let me say, with great respect, I think that's a separate issue. All right. I'm not advocating for it. I think some people are. That's a separate question that ought to be separate from this idea of religious liberty, and we will give our courts in Indiana, and have given our courts in Indiana, the ability to discern with the highest level of scrutiny where the people of our state believe that government action has intruded upon their religious liberty.

Right here. She's right here.

[11:35:27] UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE QUESTION)

PENCE: Why is it contained?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE QUESTION)

PENCE: Well, the -- you would have to speak to the Indiana general assembly and the members who crafted the legislation. I'm just pleased to support it, to answer the legislative history question. I believe it would be appropriate to make it clear this law does not give businesses the right to deny services to anyone.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Governor --

PENCE: Anybody else? How about you?

(CROSSTALK)

Go ahead. Go right ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE QUESTION)

PENCE: I don't support discrimination against gays or lesbians or anyone else.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: So, no?

PENCE: No. I don't support discrimination against lays or lesbians or anyone else. I abhor discrimination. I want to say this. No one should be harassed or mistreated because of who they are, who they love, or what they believe. I believe it with all my heart. This issue of discrimination has been an anthem throughout my life. I was -- I started out in politics as a Democrat when I was in high school and was the youth Democrat Party coordinator in my hometown. Not exactly a community organizer, but, we worked door-to-door. The Reverend Martin Luther King Jr was my hero. He's one of my heroes to this day. John Lewis approached me on the floor and asked me if I would co-chair or co-host the annual pilgrimage to Selma with him. And it was one of the greatest honors I had during my 12 years in Congress. We felt so strongly about it that not only did my wife go with me, but our three teenage kids went with us. It was the 45th anniversary of bloody Sunday. The night before in Montgomery, we sat in Dr. King's church. We talked to people who had been there. And we were deeply moved by the courage and the faith of the people who were there. I will always count it as one of the greatest privileges of my life, on the 45th anniversary of Bloody Sunday, I was walking across the bridge with John Lewis.

I think that's probably what's been most greatest to me about the debate the last week, is that I'm very typical in Indiana. Hoosiers are a loving, kind, generous, decent and tolerant people. We are phone all over the world for that. And I'm just one of them. And so the suggestion that because we passed a law to strengthen the foundation of religious liberty in our state courts, that we had in some way created a license to discriminate is deeply offensive to me. Deeply offensive to millions of Hoosiers. And we're going to correct it and move forward.

Kevin?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: I'm wondering about businesses (INAUDIBLE) NCAA, surely they weren't going on Twitter. So what can they do?

PENCE: The difference in what?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Why would they feel that this bill (INAUDIBLE). So clearly they're not following the reporting on Twitter.

[11:39:44:] PENCE: Well, I don't want to talk about private conversations but I think we all understand that this is a personal problem, and we need to deal with it. And we need to deal with it because it's the right thing to do. And we need to deal with it so that everybody around the country and around the world knows that Indiana is a welcoming place to everybody. And I agree. We've got to correct that perception. And the whole debate about how we got here, you know, we are where we are. And the CEO of the state of Indiana, I'm determined to bring people together and figure it out, solve it, and move forward. Yes.

Last question.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you personally believe that -- (INAUDIBLE).

PENCE: This law does not give a license to discriminate. It does not give a license to deny services.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE QUESTION)

PENCE: I don't support discrimination against anyone. The question that you posed, though, I believe, we're dealing here in a free society with always a careful balancing of interest. And the facts and circumstances of each case determine the outcome. What this legislation does, what it did when president Clinton signed it into law in 1993, and what it served in the some 30 states where it's been in the law, is provide a frame work for determining whether or not government action puts a substantial burden on a person's religious liberty. Now, it is counter balanced against whether there is a compelling interest, OK. So first, the first question is, in any case, does the government action place a substantial burden on the free exercise of religion. Under this standard, as it's been applied for decades, the next question is, is there a compelling state interest, and what courts have found without exception over the last 20 plus years is that the state has a compelling interest in combating discrimination. And I support that interpretation.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE)

PENCE: OK. Eric?

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: So we're hearing right there from Governor Mike Pence of Indiana, taking some questions from reporters, going for about 35 minutes, talking about this problem, the problem he calls a perception problem with the religious freedom bill that has caused so much controversy in the state of Indiana and far beyond.

A lot to talk about because he said quite a bit. Let's discuss. Margaret Hoover is here with us.

Margaret, you've been chomping at the bit to discuss some of this. The governor says this is a perception problem, and because of a perception problem, he wants to fix it. He's now pushing the legislature to get him a bill that would make it clear this bill does not allow any business the right to deny services to anyone. Is that a fix?

MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It will be a fix if he passes and supports a comprehensive nondiscrimination law.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: He specifically says that is not on his agenda. HOOVER: There are different kinds of fixes. What he has

proposed is not specific. But businesses have won here because he said he acknowledges he has to do something. It is salesforce.com and Eli Lily, the municipality of Indianapolis who have all voted and supported the bill on the floor called the Fairness for All Hoosiers Act, which is a bill that will protect LGBT people. I don't think falling short of that, you'll be able to answer the major criticisms of this.

And I just want to be clear on one thing. He says he does not support discrimination of LGBT.

BOLDUAN: He said that over and over again.

HOOVER: He said that over and over again. Let's be clear, this is not a law that happened in a vacuum. In the last two years in Indiana, in the legislature, there has been a very concerted effort to pass a law to amend the state Constitution to define marriage between a man and a woman exclusively. There are many people in the United States who think that that is discrimination against gay and lesbian Americans. He may not view that as discrimination, but that does not pass the test, if you ask the CEO of Apple or Indiana businesses who provide a huge amount of money and support for the state of Indiana.

[11:45:06] BOLDUAN: Margaret, on the fix, on the breaking news we have right now and what he is asking the legislature to push forth, do you think that is a step in the right direction, or do you think this is lip service?

HOOVER: He did not say anything specific that will actually protect LGBT Americans from discrimination.

BERMAN: Margaret Hoover, thanks so much.

HOOVER: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Thank you.

BERMAN: I want to go to the Senate Democratic leader in the state of Indiana. Tim Lanane joining us right now.

Senator, thank you for being with us.

STATE SEN. TIM LANANE, (D), INDIANA: Thank you for having me.

BERMAN: Do you have any sense yet what the measure might be to work its way through the assembly right there that might fix this perception problem, as the governor just called it?

LANANE: Well, I'm not sure. From what I heard from the governor, it is not a fix to the issue, which is before us here, which is really now more than this law. It's a perception, not only that this law discriminates, but it's somehow an unfortunate perception that Indiana discriminates. And so if the governor really wants to take bold action, what he outlined here, I did not hear as bold action. If he wants to take bold action, you have to do more. You have to take affirmative action. You can't just tinker with this legislation. You need to amend the Indiana Rights Act to include the gays, and include sexual orientation as a protective class in the state of Indiana. Until you do that you have a vacuum. You have a vacuum in terms of protection for those individuals. And so no, I did not hear anything, unfortunately, which does what I think we need. We need to have -- they call this the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. We need an Indiana reputation restoration act. And that would be exactly what I said, which is to take the bold action of amending our civil rights act to include sexual orientation. Now the governor said something which I found encouraging when he said repeatedly that he does not support discrimination against gays. Well, if you don't support discrimination against gays, then you should support the idea of amending our civil rights act in the way that I talked.

BOLDUAN: Now, Senator, I want to play just for our viewers, who may be joining us a little late, let's play what the governor said what he's calling on the general assembly to do now. Listen to this. This is the governor a short time ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PENCE: I'm calling on the general assembly to send me a bill that focuses on the issue here. That focuses on, frankly, the smear that's been leveled against this law and against the people of Indiana. And that is that somehow through our legislative process we enacted legislation that created a license to discriminate. That is so offensive to me as a Hoosier and I know it's offensive to people across the state of Indiana, that we have to correct that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: So he says it has to be corrected. He says they want to address the smear that has been leveled against Indiana. Regardless of how you get there, what the intention is or not, do you think because of the -- in the governor's view, the smear campaign, I guess what he believes is a stand-up law, you clearly disagree with him. Do you think you're going to get what you want in the end?

LANANE: I think if the governor and everyone involved in this process will logically think about what is it that we need to take to restore the good reputation of our great state, then I think you'll realize you have to do more than just sort of gussy up this bill, which is already out there. You need to move boldly and make a bold statement that Indiana does not allow discrimination against any person. We certainly don't allow it on the basis of sexual orientation.

BOLDUAN: So, Senator, do you expect the governor to work with you on this point?

LANANE: I'm asking him to -- I'm asking him -- let's have everybody set aside the politics involved here. You know, we need to restore the trust of people in the leadership of Indiana. And that means for us to work together to find solution. Now that solution cannot be timid. It can't be wordsmithing or tinkering with the current bill, which by the way, I don't think needs to this be passed. Quite frankly we called for the repeal of it. If you're going to show strong leadership on this, and everyone involved in the process, and it should be a bipartisan effort, by the way. We should move to now amend our Indiana civil rights act and include sexual orientation

[11:49:47] BERMAN: Senator, thank you so much for being with us.

I want to bring in Tim Swarens, someone who put out a remarkable front-page editorial that said "Fix this now." That was the preamble that was a call for the Fountain State assembly to fix what he calls a perception problem.

Tim, does this address the concerns that your paper clearly has?

TIM SWARENS, EDITOR, INDIANAPOLIS STAR: So far, what we've heard are half steps, vague half steps. It's going to take bold action as we said this morning. Half steps are not sufficient to put out this fire that's engulfed Indiana in the last week.

BERMAN: Tim, you heard the governor say this isn't a problem with the law, it's a problem with perception. He says this perception is being created by smears and he also says it's being created by bad reporting. Do you think that's the case or do you think that this law has now created this wave of economic reality where businesses are fleeing in some cases Indianapolis?

SWARENS: I think we need to focus on addressing the economic reality, where we are today. There was an opportunity perhaps a month ago to make a case for this law. That window's closed and the governor doesn't understand that. It's addressing the real issue. The message that's been received by the rest of the country and by many people in this state is that one that Indiana will tolerate discrimination. We need to send a clear message that discrimination is against our values, that we will not tolerate that. Half steps will not send that message. We have to take a bold step. We have to get outside of our comfort zones. The governor is not comfortable with take a bold step right now. But he's going to need to do that in order to put out this fire.

BOLDUAN: We want to talk more about this.

Tim, stick with us.

Let's get to Mel Robbins, CNN legal analyst.

Mel, you've been watching this and listening to this. There's a lot to discuss and a lot to be careful of here because this gets to legislation and a real legal question of really where is the line of discrimination? And you can final a legal analyst on every side of this debate we've found. What do you think of what you heard from the governor today? Is he proposing a strong legal fix?

MEL ROBBINS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, what I heard the governor say, Kate and John, is that he had read President Clinton's bill from 1993. But what I'm wondering is, has he read his own bill? Has he looked at Section 9? There is a major distinction in the Indiana law and the federal law and every other religious freedom law in the country. Indiana under Section 9 authorizes private individuals which also includes, by the way, corporations, limited partnerships, to have a defense, to bring a claim. So in other words, if you have a case where somebody is saying, hey, you're a florist and you're not willing to provide flowers in a public marketplace for my commitment ceremony, even though gay marriage is legal in Indiana, what this law does, unlike any other law in any other state and unlike the federal government is it allows somebody to have a defense to a discrimination claim. And so before he starts to fix it, I suggest that the governor reads it, Kate and John?

BERMAN: Ross, I want to bring you in here because before you were saying there was a misunderstanding on the law. That was the point that governor Pence just made at length. He said right now there is a perception problem and he wants to fix that. But you write a very interesting column today where you say that society has moved so fast that that's playing into this. You just had the governor say on a podium he doesn't support discrimination of any kind yet he also supported a measure that would have declared marriage to be just between a man and a woman and there are people who will say that's discrimination. So you see this dilemma being created in the political discussion.

ROSS DOUTHAT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, right, and what I was trying to say in the column is if you had rewound your time machine back five or ten years, and say, we would be having a debate where most Republicans and conservatives and frankly at this point most religious conservatives concede that within the next few years, we a lot of same-sex marriage in every state in the union and the only issue remaining was the question of whether a handful of florists, an Orthodox Jewish deli that doesn't want to cater a same-sex marriage ceremony, whether they would have had legal protections, people would say, that sounds like a big win for social liberals and gay rights activists. Now, obviously, the American conversation has shifted a lot in the last five or 10 years. And now the position of, I think, most political liberals and activists and major corporations and so on is that, in fact, that florist, that deli owner and so on, is in the same legal position as a store counter owner in the segregated south and deserves no legal accommodations whatsoever. That's the debate we're having right now.

And the question is basically -- and Pence's response was essentially evasive. He basically didn't want to say whether or not the law would apply to cases involving that kind of store owner. The answer is, as written, it would imply it would give them a day in court.

Now, the legal analysis we just heard is mostly incorrect in the sense that, yes, this law does something different in that it clarifies whether or not private individuals have a claim. But the majority of court rulings on existing RFRAs said the language of all those other laws usually applies to private individuals and businesses as well. So it's a clarification.

(CROSSTALK) [11:55:46] DOUTHAT: But this is Pence's right that in most

legal interpretation, this law is similar to what's on the books in other states.

(CROSSTALK)

DOUTHAT: We're just having a debate about whether it should apply.

And the compromise -- I need to push ahead for one second.

BOLDUAN: OK.

DOUTHAT: The compromise Pence is proposing would effectively probably take off the table the claim that a business owner could make, it wouldn't protect a gay or lesbian couple from discrimination more generally in parts of Indiana that don't have human rights ordinances because Indiana doesn't have a law statewide against discrimination against gays and lesbians. What's strange about this debate is discrimination against gays and lesbians was legal in Indiana before the law was passed. And this law affects it not at all.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: There's a lot of support changing that.

BOLDUAN: Gloria, I want to get your thought on this.

The state Senator said, let's start compromising. But a lot of politics are going on right now. The governor himself, you heard one admission in the governor's lengthy press conference where he said, I could have handled this all better this weekend. How do you think the governor did here?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: I was watching a governor tap dance and deliver what I call kind of -- I was thinking of it as a modified surrender, rather than a surrender. Because what he was saying -- and modified surrenders don't really make anybody happy because he kept saying that it was a perception problem, that the law had been mischaracterized, the law had been smeared. Nobody intended in the law to discriminate in they way, shape or form and then he says we're going to have a fix. Maybe it's to say you can't discriminate against gays and lesbians in the state. But I think this is a governor who has clearly been besieged by businesses, everybody ranging from NASCAR to statements by the NCAA. And this is a governor who's been besieged by businesses in his own state saying, you're killing us with this law. Yet politically he did not want to take it back because you see most 2016 candidates in the Republican Party supporting him.

BOLDUAN: That's exactly right.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: And he, by the way, hasn't ruled out running for president in 2016.

BORGER: Of course. Of course. So he's trying to say that, look, the theory of this law is completely appropriate, we're trying to protect people, not discriminate against people. And yet, as a governor, he's losing potentially millions and millions of dollars' worth of business but he's saying the law was smeared, not that the law was wrong.

BOLDUAN: Was flawed.

BORGER: He's trying to tap dance here in a very odd and strange way as a governor, as a potential presidential candidate, as a conservative Republican and it was painful to watch.

BERMAN: Gloria Borger, Ross Douthat, Mel Robbins, Tim Swarens, a cast of thousands here helping us watch this very, very interesting event, Governor Mike Pence calling for a fix but not a repeal of the law --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: And I don't think it can be underestimated the pressure that businesses brought to bear on this when they spoke out.

That's it for us AT THIS HOUR. Thank you so much for joining us.

[11:59:13] BERMAN: "Legal View" starts right after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)