Return to Transcripts main page

CNN NEWSROOM

Aaron Hernandez Murder Trial; Germanwings Flight Crash in the Alps; Iraqi Government Frees Tikrit from ISIS; Poll: Most Americans Supports Iran Deal; Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired March 31, 2015 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[10:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 19th Aaron had told you that he and Mr. Lloyd had spent time together socially?

ROBERT KRAFT, OWNER, NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS: Yes. I was -- that's what it says -- what I said. But I didn't -- that was a general statement in my mind. That they spent time socially.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your honor, I move to strike the answer after yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Any answer after yes is stricken.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now the conversation you had with Aaron, Mr. Kraft, lasted about five or 10 minutes, you testified?

KRAFT: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did at any time that anyone else join you?

KRAFT: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And at the end of that conversation, you and Aaron shook hands, didn't you?

KRAFT: I thought he hugged and kissed me. We might have shaken hands, too.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, at the end of that conversation, Aaron hugged and kissed you, didn't he?

KRAFT: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that was customary for you. That was a customary sort of exchange that you two had, isn't it?

KRAFT: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, isn't it true that when Aaron was at the stadium, he was always respectful to you, wasn't he?

KRAFT: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And from your perspective, sir, when Aaron was at the stadium, while he was with the Patriots, he always carried himself well and respectfully? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sustained.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You had no reason -- no experience, Mr. Kraft, with any problems with Aaron, did you?

KRAFT: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No further questions, your honor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, did you know much about the life of Aaron Hernandez outside of when he showed up to the stadium?

KRAFT: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And Mr. Fee asked you some questions about you had prepared an affidavit, is that right?

KRAFT: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, your honor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, he showed you this document a couple of times?

KRAFT: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you recall when you had prepared that document, sir?

KRAFT: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Do you recall how long after your last meeting with Aaron Hernandez?

KRAFT: I honestly can't recall.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can I approach, your honor? And look at the last part of this and read that to yourself and see if that refreshes your memory.

KRAFT: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does that refresh your memory, sir?

KRAFT: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what was the date of the affidavit?

KRAFT: The 19th of August, 2013.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And at that time, was your memory better, fresher, than it is today?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, your honor. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection sustained. And this document has been

used only by both counsel in case to see if it would in any fashion refresh the witness' recollection. The document is not an exhibit in the case and any statements in it are not coming in -- have not come in substantively for the truth of anything in that document.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, Mr. Fee had asked you questions on reciting certain statement that you made in your affidavit.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection sustained. The document was used to refresh a witness' recollection. You may proceed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he ask you the question, he looked me at -- straight in the eye and said no, that he was completely innocent?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, your honor.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection sustained.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, your honor.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You may ask whether -- you may rephrase your question, not from the document, in terms of what was questioned.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he ask you a question about whether he looked you in the eye and told you that he was completely innocent?

KRAFT: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And when you had that -- when he made that statement to you, that was -- there was an additional part of that statement. Is that true? When you spoke with him back June 19th, 2013?

KRAFT: I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you met with Aaron Hernandez on June 19th and he made that statement that -- claiming he was completely innocent, that was in the context of a -- he said something else after that, right?

KRAFT: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was that?

KRAFT: He said he hoped -- to the best of my recollection, he said he hoped that the time of the incident became public because he was at a club at that time.

[10:05:10] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Did he indicate -- did he tell you at that time how he knew the time of the incident? The murder?

KRAFT: No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection sustained.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ten minutes ago Mr. Fee had asked you some questions about time spent together socially. About Aaron Hernandez making some statement about time spent with the victim.

KRAFT: I'm sorry. I don't understand what you're asking me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure. I think you made a reference to what you meant when you had answered his question about the indication of time spent together.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection to form of question, your honor.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection, sustained.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Fee had asked you -- let me just back up for a second. Mr. Fee had asked you about, did he indicate that he knew Odin Lloyd?

KRAFT: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Did he actually -- in your conversation, was the word, the name Odin Lloyd used, or did you use it -- did you ask him about whether he knew the victim?

KRAFT: I don't recall.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. May I approach, your honor?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You may.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So I'll just direct your attention to read the first line in there.

KRAFT: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Does that refresh your memory, sir?

KRAFT: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you ask him about whether he knew?

KRAFT: I asked him whether he knew the victim. I did not say his name.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And to the extent that he indicated to you the nature of their relationship, what, if anything, did he say?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection to form of question, your honor.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled.

KRAFT: That it was a social relationship because he was the boyfriend of his fiancee's sister. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And sir, just with regard to Mr. Fee had shown you

a document relating to a contract, is that right?

KRAFT: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And are there certain conduct requirements that you have as the owner of the New England Patriots in terms of the behavior or the conduct of the players?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Beyond the scope, your honor.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sustained.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your honor, may have I approach, please?

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: All right. We're going to step away from Robert Kraft's testimony in Boston. Of course, the New England Patriots owner was on the stand in the Aaron Hernandez murder trial because at the time the murder went down, Aaron Hernandez played for the New England Patriots, and obviously he talked with Robert Kraft about this event because Robert Kraft wondered if he had anything to do with it.

I want to bring in CNN legal analyst -- HLN legal analyst Joey Jackson, criminal defense attorney, and it was just jarring to see Robert Kraft on the stand so soon after the Super Bowl with the jubilant celebrations and there he was put in the hot seat.

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Absolutely. Well, just taking a step backwards, Carol, before going forward, remember, Robert Kraft was not there in terms of at the incident itself. Didn't see anything, doesn't know anything. So the prosecution is calling him to get an assessment of what Hernandez told him.

Now to be clear, apparently he met with, that is Robert Kraft met with Hernandez, his employee, two days after the fact. He saw Hernandez and asked him, hey, what happened? Hernandez insists, I'm innocent. I had nothing to do with it.

But then of course as we talked about, Carol, he says, that is Hernandez, well, I hope the time comes out when this occurred because I was at a club. So the big question is, why would you be asking about the time unless you knew the time because you did it. And so I guess that from the prosecution's perspective is the takeaway.

Of course on cross examination, defense is, you never had any problem with him, did you? He was a nice guy.

COSTELLO: Great player.

JACKSON: He hugged you, he kissed you afterwards, and, you know. And so therefore, I don't know how much this adds ultimately to the equation. And in the long run, we should talk about, it's a largely circumstantial case. We know that, right? There's no murder weapon that has been found. And the motive is very questionable because you have a $44 million guy, $44 million man who is there. He signed a contract. Has a beautiful daughter. Why would he do

this? Of course, the prosecution is saying you very much did do it. And they're trying to bring in every single piece and shred of evidence to establish that fact.

COSTELLO: So you think since they put Robert Kraft on the stand that Bill Belichick will be next?

JACKSON: You know, he very well could be because remember, Carol, he's on that witness list. And so as to whether he'll testify, he'll be called to testify is another matter. But it always depends upon what exactly he told Bill Belichick. Of course, the prosecution may want the jury to hear that.

[10:10:08] And you know, at the end of the day, you could say from a defense perspective, he insisted on his innocence to both of them. So really what do they add to the equation?

COSTELLO: There's so much damaging testimony before from those two guys, though. I mean, just listening to Robert Kraft, it went through my mind, what's the point of this?

JACKSON: Right. And remember, when you say damaging testimony that went before that, we should also remind viewers of what happened yesterday, Carol. Big moment. Why? Because his fiancee, that is Aaron Hernandez's fiancee Shayanna Jenkins took the stand. And she's the one that carried out that box from the house. Inside a bag. And so the big question was, why were you carrying out a box inside a bag. And of course remember before she did that, she received a communication from Aaron Hernandez asking and requesting that she do that.

So it was a big moment yesterday. Of course, she said she never looked inside the box to detect what it was. She just went and got rid of it. But the question that remains, what was in that box? Did he ask you to take out a gun?

COSTELLO: Could it have been the murder weapon? Right? Right?

JACKSON: Exactly.

COSTELLO: Exactly.

JACKSON: Yes.

COSTELLO: Interesting trial.

Joey Jackson, thanks so much. I appreciate it.

We're going to take a break. We'll be back with much more in the NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News. COSTELLO: And welcome back to the NEWSROOM this hour. We're

following some breaking news out of Iraq. The prime minister there announcing just moments ago that government forces have liberated the town of Tikrit, that's Saddam's birthplace. They have liberated Tikrit from the control of ISIS fighters.

[10:15:04] Now that went down with Iraqi Security Forces fighting ISIS fighters in Tikrit with the help of Iranian advisers and also American airstrikes. We're going to talk much more about this coming up in just a bit.

But first, new developments in the Germanwings plane crash. French aviation officials are investigating whether, quote, "systemic weaknesses could allow a disturbed pilot to intentionally crash a plane. This amid chilling new revelations about the mental state of Germanwings Flight 9525 co-pilot, Andreas Lubitz. Those details coming from his own girlfriend, telling officials she knew about his psychological issues.

CNN's Pamela Brown joins me now from Dusseldorf with more.

Good morning.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, good morning to you, Carol. We know from sources that Andreas Lubitz's girlfriend has been speaking to investigators. She's been cooperating. And what we have learned is that she said she knew he had psychological issues, but that she didn't know the extent of the meds. She says that she was optimistic that he would be able to work through his issues and she was aware that he was seeing two doctors very recently.

And we have reported that these two doctors are an eye doctor and a neuropsychologist. Recently he had been having some vision problems, so he went to the eye doctor, and that the doctor diagnosed him with a psychosomatic disorder. A neuropsychologist also diagnosed him with something very similar. Both doctors deemed him unfit to work.

But as we know, Carol, he was trying to hide his illness from his employer and clearly the extent of it from his girlfriend as well. Even though she knew that there was some issues here, investigators believe that she didn't know the full picture -- Carol.

COSTELLO: And Pamela, I understand the girlfriend said that they were working through his mental problems together. Can you tell us more about that?

BALDWIN: All I can tell you is that they were a couple, and that clearly he shared with her that he was going to see doctors and that he had some issues, and so she apparently told investigators that they were working the through it. She thought that he's going to get treatment for this, that it's going to be taken care of.

He's seeking treatment, and clearly it just wasn't enough, Carol, and I'm told by a source that she was just as surprised as everyone else by what he did -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Pamela Brown reporting live from Dusseldorf this morning. Thank you so much.

Andreas Lubitz did pass his annual recertification test in the summer. He filled out a questionnaire that was provided to him by aviation authorities. Some of the questions in that questionnaire, do you have any psychological, psychiatric or neurological diseases? Are you taking any medication? Have you ever attempted suicide?

If you fear you're going to lose your job, would you answer yes to any of those questions?

Let's talk about that and more. I'm joined by CNN safety analyst and former FAA safety inspector David Soucie and chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Welcome to you both.

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: Good morning.

COSTELLO: Sanjay, I want to start with you. Is it likely a person who is having mental distress would answer truthfully on a questionnaire knowing they could lose their job?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, it would be highly suspicious that that would be adequate to try and find somebody because of the reasons you mentioned. I mean, obviously, the answer -- you want to be a pilot, you answer some of those questions yes, and you're not likely to be able to fly, but also, you know, someone who is truly dealing with mental illness, just their capacity overall in terms of how they approach these questionnaires.

We know that he was on, at least at one point in his life, on some pretty powerful medications. Not for depression alone, but for psychosis, which can be associated with delusions, hallucinations, breaks with reality. So no for a couple of different reasons -- Carol.

COSTELLO: OK. So, David, I'll ask you the same question. Isn't the questionnaire kind of silly in retrospect?

SOUCIE: It really is to me. I can't -- I mean, I've known about this for quite some time, and when I was with the FAA we worked on this to try to get somewhere with it. But it's very difficult. You've touched on very difficult ground when you start -- trying to put a litmus test on what mental health is and what it's not. So it's a very difficult situation. It's hard to find out where exactly that is.

So -- but I'm hopeful that they'll be able to come up with something, at least symptomatic reports of what kind of symptoms that might present themselves, but the fact is, he lied on that application. He did have these issues, and that's a crime.

COSTELLO: It is a crime. It's a federal crime because they have a similar questionnaire here in the United States that pilots fill out. Correct? So, Sanjay, this guy's girlfriend noticed he had some problems, but

even she said she didn't notice how serious they were. Is that possible?

GUPTA: Well, you know, with -- so take depression, for example. Someone who's -- they can be treated. He could be on medications that could be very effective. And you know, have a very productive sort of life, still being treated for depression.

[10:20:06] We do know that he recently bought two Audi cars. Could that have been a symptom of the manic -- part of manic depression? We don't know. But these are obviously some clues that I'm sure she would have noticed, other people around him would have noticed. But depression alone is not what we're really talking about here, you know, Carol. It's the psychosis.

And to your question, you know, someone can have a racing mind, if you will, with being -- being even having delusions, hallucinations but may not have an obvious outward appearance. And, you know, it's a lot to lay at the feet of another pilot or other crew members to be able to notice these signs. A lot of times they can be difficult for even mental health professionals to pick up on without, you know, a significant amount of time with the patient. So there may have been clues, but they may have been hard to notice.

COSTELLO: Well, let me ask you that same question, David, in a different way, because when you fly in a plane, and you have, you spend hours and hours with someone in a tiny space. And you only have each other to talk to. So is it possible that someone would have noticed that something was awry with this man?

SOUCIE: Well, he clearly loved flying. That's what he did. And when you're in that cockpit environment, it's as if everything else goes away. So it's really not indicative of what's going on inside the head. There's a whole different tier and level of the operational part of the brain and what we're trying to do to accomplish that flight, and complete it successfully, and this type of event.

I really can't see that there's some kind of outward appearance that would say, hey, I'm about ready to have a mental breakdown. So the work has to be done before that gets into the cockpit. Certainly it's important to have the relationship, which we do. But I think there needs to be more. It's just not enough.

COSTELLO: And finally, Sanjay, you know, a lot of people suffer from depression in America. I mean, some of the statistics you see, it's an incredible number of people. And most of them are not violent, but we're not talking about simple depression, when it comes to this guy.

Can you just clarify that for our audience?

GUPTA: We are not talking about simple depression. And I think we've been saying this since the beginning. Depression alone would not have led to this sort of behavior. People who are depressed, as you say, are often not violent. If they are, it's typically just against themselves. What we're describing here is more of a psychosis picture, a break

with reality, and obviously a mass homicide. So you know, when people like neat and tidy descriptions of mental health diagnoses and like to attribute them to certain behaviors, that hardly ever happens, Carol, and it's not going to happen here either.

Could it have been a depression that became so severe that it became more of a psychotic depression, so it was layered with delusions and hallucinations perhaps. We know five years ago when he was 22 or 23, he received a powerful anti-psychotic medication as an injection, which is typically given when someone is acutely agitated from this.

So absolutely, it's a really important message. This wasn't depression alone. Depression can be treated. People can live productive lives. This is a psychosis that is often a lifelong illness, much more difficult to treat.

COSTELLO: All right. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, David Soucie, thanks to you both. I appreciate it.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, a blow to ISIS as the town of Tikrit is liberated from its grip. We'll talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:26:53] COSTELLO: All right, back to our breaking news out of Iraq. Tikrit liberated from ISIS. The prime minister there announcing the government forces have taken control.

CNN's senior international correspondent Arwa Damon is in Baghdad with more on this.

Tell us more, Arwa.

ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol. Well, the Iraqi security forces backed by these popular mobilization units, as they are largely made up of the Iranian backed Shia militias that the U.S. was so concerned about did manage to push through. And according to state television quoting the prime minister, liberate the city of Tikrit.

Now this came after the operation to retake the city had been paused. That is what it was being called here for a few weeks. Two weeks or so, and then the Iraqi government deciding to ask the coalition for airstrikes. Those happening last weekend. It seems over the weekend into Monday, allowing this Iraqi force to finally move through the city.

Now these strikes, precision airstrikes at specific locations that were called in by the Iraqis. These were areas that the Iraq's own airpower were unable to target. Moving it through the city, according to a number of senior officials, Iraqi state television, the troops found roadside bombs, hundreds of them were diffused, we are being told. Not to mention booby trapped buildings. Iraq is saying that they killed dozens of ISIS fighters. Now this has been a highly controversial operation. A very sensitive

one because Tikrit is Saddam Hussein's hometown. It is a predominantly Sunni city. The fight -- the force moving through it predominantly Shia and there were worries that this Shia force could be wanting to take out their revenge, retaliation, because when ISIS first pushed into Tikrit, there was that horrific massacre of hundreds, perhaps upwards of 1500 Shia recruits that were killed.

But this for now a victory for Iraq, if they're able to hold on to it, but it does not mean the battle against ISIS is over.

COSTELLO: All right. Arwa Damon reporting live from Baghdad, thanks so much.

In Switzerland, the world watches as the deadline takes closer. The U.S.-led talks with Iran due to end in less than eight hours unless both sides can agree in broad terms on limiting Tehran's nuclear program. Even Secretary of State John Kerry concedes there are tricky issues still standing in the way. According to a new poll from the "Washington Post" and ABC News, 59 percent of Americans support a deal with Iran, compared to 31 percent who oppose.

But there's an interesting twist to this poll. The same majority, 59 percent, also say they're not confident that such a deal would stop Iran from developing nuclear weapons, and you know, in other words, they don't think Iran will follow the deal once it's reached.

Jim Sciutto is CNN's chief national security correspondent. He joins us now from Washington.

I think probably some lawmakers agree with that poll and with the people of America.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: No question, Carol, and that's why what you'll hear from Secretary of State John Kerry, he said this for a number of months now.

[10:30:00] In the old negotiations with the Soviet Union, the saying used to be trust but verify. What Secretary Kerry will say about these talks is verify but verify. That yes, he will grant, there's very little trust --

(END)