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Huckabee Says Gay Rights Activists Want No More Churches; "'NY Times" Says Sen. Robert Menendez Should Resign; Sen. Harry Reid to Step Down; NCAA President Reached out to Governor on Religious Freedom Law; Iraq War Veteran Confronts Karl Rove. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired April 3, 2015 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:32:09] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Just past the bottom of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

This week's battle over religious freedom laws, snared not only state lawmakers but potential Republican candidates for president. You had former Florida Governor Jeb Bush. He has softened his support on Indiana's law, saying, quote, "a consensus oriented approach would be better." Texas Senator Ted Cruz strongly supported the law before this week's so-called fix.

But former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee took it a step further. He suggested that gay rights activists want to make churches a thing of the past.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE HUCKABEE, (R), FORMER ARKANSAS GOVERNOR (voice-over): The left has gotten very good at creating a crisis, something to divide the country. Well, it won't stop until there are no more churches, until there are no more people who are spreading the gospel. And I'm talking now about the unabridged, unapologetic gospel that is really God's truth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Joining me now, CNN political commentator, Michael Smerconish, host of "Smerconish" here on CNN.

Nice to see you, my friend.

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR & CNN HOST, SMERCONISH: You, too, always.

BALDWIN: I know you are just about to talk to Governor Huckabee and I'm sure this will be one of the topics you'll ask him about. Let me just ask you, in hearing him say that, what do you think his motivation was?

SMERCONISH: I think he says what he really means. I don't think he's an individual who puts his finger to the wind. You can disagree about what Governor Huckabee has to say, but I believe the sort of statements that he offers, he believes at his core. He's not a guy out there doing polling and then deciding --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: He's not thinking, yeah, maybe I'll float my idea for running for president.

(CROSSTALK)

SMERCONISH: He's not the blow-dried candidate. He's not one of them.

(LAUGHTER)

BALDWIN: OK. So he really believes it?

SMERCONISH: I think he really believes it. I think that he believes that there is a war of sorts. He didn't use those words. But going on against the practice of Christianity and he views this in that context. What I note is that both sides in this controversy think that they're being discriminated against. Gays and lesbians think they're the victims of discrimination. As Governor Huckabee says, he believes that it's the vendor of the cake, because we all talk about the cake scenario. It occurs to me that maybe the person who is being victimized is the atheist.

BALDWIN: How so?

SMERCONISH: Under the way that it was initially drawn in Indiana, a person of faith who says I don't want to serve that gay couple will receive some level of protection under the law. How about an atheist baker who just doesn't like gays and lesbians and doesn't want to serve them.

BALDWIN: Haven't even heard that thought yet this week. Watch this guy on TV.

SMERCONISH: Maybe it's because it's ridiculous, who knows.

BALDWIN: I'll be waiting to see what Governor Huckabee says tomorrow morning. Let's switch to Senator Bob Menendez, saying no way, not guilty to the

14 criminal counts against him. These counts involve lavish trips, women, et cetera. "The New York Times" is calling for him to step down. They say this is a distraction. Listen, I'm not on the inside of the investigation, but I mean in this country aren't you innocent until proven guilty?

[14:35:10] SMERCONISH: That's how I read it. I found the "Times" editorial to be unconvincing. Maybe it's because I have Senator Ted Stevens in the back of my mind, who was treated inappropriately in a trial scenario by the feds. Menendez is owed the benefit of the doubt. The argument that says, well, it's a distraction, he'll have a lot on his plate I found to be thoroughly unconvincing.

Brooke, I'm not sure. All I know is what I read of the indictment. I read the indictment. I don't see this as a layup. I don't think this is a no-brainer. I think there will be a very active defense put forward on his behalf where he will say this individual is a friend and, yes, I tried to provide constituent service to him in the same way I would someone else, even though he's from Florida, not New Jersey, and there's nothing illegal about that. For the feds to prove a quid pro quo, that one was doing something for the other in return for that exchange, is going to be hard unless the physician is cooperating and offering testimony, and he's not.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Yeah.

SMERCONISH: If he should all of a sudden turn on Senator Menendez, then it's a whole different kind of a case. But without him cooperating with a federal investigation, I think this is a hard case.

BALDWIN: OK. Outgoing Senate majority leader for eight years, Harry Reid, he's going to hang it up after this next go-round.

He sat down with our chief congressional correspondent, Dana Bash. They had this conversation. You'll hear the sound. But to set it up, they were talking about a moment when he was standing on the Senate floor, this is 2012. Romney wanted to be president and he was referencing Romney maybe not paying taxes. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. HARRY REID, (D-NV), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: Let him prove that he has paid taxes, because he hasn't.

I don't regret that at all. The Koch brothers, no one would help me. They were afraid the Koch brothers would go after them. So I did it on my own.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So no regrets about Mitt Romney, about the Koch brothers? Some people have even called it McCarthyite.

REID: Well, they can call it whatever they want. Romney didn't win, did he?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Romney didn't win, did he?

SMERCONISH: And so I think he's saying, the ends justified the means. Really? Did they? If you were making that statement without any kind of a foundation and one was never offered by him, and I think it was also the smile. I mean read the body language of what he said to Dana Bash, I think he was pretty much saying I achieved my purpose regardless of the truth.

BALDWIN: Of whatever he knew at the time.

SMERCONISH: Exactly. That's totally unsettling, I think.

BALDWIN: Michael Smerconish -- SMERCONISH: Have we offended everybody?

BALDWIN: I think we have. Check, check and check.

(LAUGHTER)

"Smerconish," 9:00 a.m. eastern here on CNN. We'll stay tuned for the Huckabee interview.

Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Now the stage is set for tomorrow's NCAA Final Four in Indianapolis, but this year the talks haven't been all about who's the best team in college basketball. Instead, you look at the timing of this year's competition, happens to coincide with what's been going on in Indiana, this battle over this controversy religious freedom law that critics call anti-gay. The governor in the state of Indiana, Mike Pence, has signed an updated version of the law that includes language that bars businesses from discriminating on the basis of someone's sexual orientation.

The NCAA president, Mark Emmert, says he personally reached out to the governor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK EMMERT, NCAA PRESIDENT: So we came out fairly early in this process and we were hopeful that that could instigate some change. While we don't want to overplay the role that we had in it, we are pleased that they -- the legislative bodies and the governor and others have decided to respond I think appropriately.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's go to Rachel Nichols there in Indianapolis.

I know you're talking to the players. You're talking to the coaches. What's their reaction been to all of this that's going on there?

RACHEL NICHOLS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, I actually sat down with all the four coaches involved in this weekend's games. They were very pleased with the NCAA's role in all of this. Make no mistake, it was a very active role. President Mark Emmert didn't just call Governor Mike Pence. He actually sat down with the governor and Republican leaders and made it clear that unless there was specific language in this amendment that protected the LGBT community, they would no longer feel that this was an environment they could do business in. Let me give you some numbers on that.

BALDWIN: OK.

NICHOLS: These next four days of the Final Four are expected to bring in half a billion dollars in revenue to local businesses here. Their headquarters are here in Indiana. So we are talking about a very big foot to put down in the middle of these proceedings. It's just another example of how sports can often push forward social

change in this country, a topic I spoke to Mike Krzyzewski, from Duke, about. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NICHOLS: How have you seen the power of sports affect social change in these moments?

[14:39:57] MIKE KRZYZEWSKI, DUKE UNIVERSITY BASKETBALL COACH: Well, I think our sport has done the most, you know, over the years, especially as far as race relations. In that we're playing in shorts. You see, are you white, are you African-American, are you Asian, are you -- you know, who are you? And all of a sudden, you're working together, you're sweating together, you're hugging together, you're talking, you're loving, you're fighting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NICHOLS: Now, remember, it was Jason Collins who was the first male pro athlete in any of the major American sports to come out as gay, so the sport of basketball, in particular, feels like they're ahead on social change issues. In this case, the NCAA felt like their member schools felt very strongly about this and they took an extremely active role in brokering, helping to broker this amendment.

BALDWIN: It has been great to hear from these coaches, especially so quickly, the universities as well, these Final Four schools.

Rachel Nichols, thank you. We will be tuned in to you tomorrow.

Because, heads up for all of you watching, before tipoff tomorrow, make sure you wall all access at the Final Four, a CNN "Bleacher Report" special with Rachel. She'll be joined by CBS and Turner Sports broadcasters, Clark Kellogg and Steve Smith. That is tomorrow, 2:30 p.m. eastern, right here on CNN.

Coming up next, an interview you cannot miss. An Iraq War veteran confronting Karl Rove, George W. Bush's former advisor. The soldier demanded that Karl Rove apologize for the war. You're about to hear how Rove responded. I'll speak live with this veteran. Do not miss this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:45:48] BALDWIN: A U.S. veteran, who served two tours of duty in Iraq and saw firsthand the heavy human toll there, says Karl Rove should apologize for his decision in sending, quote, "a generation to lose their humanity." 32-year-old Ryan Henowitz confronted the former senior advisor to President George W. Bush at the University of Connecticut this week. Here was the back and forth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RYAN HENOWITZ, U.S. ARMY VETERAN: My name is Ryan Henowitz. When I was 20 years old, like many students here, I had a lot of questions about life and the way the world worked. Back then I was a private and I was about to invade Iraq as a medic for the second battalion. I saw my friends torn apart and Iraqi children screaming for their parents. Shrapnel scarred them and us in ways we will never know. We were exposed to more questions about life and death than any 20-year- old should have. These scars stay with me and other veterans who are now one of the highest demographics to commit suicide at 22 a day and over thousands disabled. I've taken responsibility for my actions and dealt with my demons while advocating for a peaceful resolution for a war that was an act of aggression with no clear goal. Can you take responsibility and apologize for your decision in sending a generation to lose their humanity and deal with the horrors of war which you have never had the courage to face? Will you apologize to the millions of fathers and mothers who lost their children on both sides of this useless war?

(APPLAUSE)

KARL ROVE, FORMER WHITE HOUSE ADVISOR: It was right to remove Saddam Hussein from power. It was right. He thumbed his nose at the international community, which had passed at the United Nations. 14 times he gave the finger to the United Nations. He refused to live up to his resolutions. He was a state sponsor of terrorism and in the aftermath of 9/11 he represented terror. He was diverting millions of dollars in oil, he admitted as much to FBI interrogators. He said the West is losing interest. The West is losing interest. I was able to keep it together and they would lose their interest and I would be able to reconstitute by WMD programs and maybe I wouldn't be around but the bastards who were his sons would govern in his behalf. I appreciate your service to our country. I'm sorry for what you went through. It was the right thing to remove Saddam Hussein from power. The United States government and the United States military was right to do so. We should be proud of what we were able to achieve in Iraq and we should be sorry that we left them alone. Because when we left them, things deteriorated. The same as they would have deteriorated if in 1955 Dwight Eisenhower had said you know what, we've had this horrible civil war in Korea, let's wash our hands of it and go home. The world would look a lot different had he done so. If in 1950, we'd said we've been in Europe five years, we've defeated the Nazis, but let's go home. We should have stayed there and remained like the Iraqis wanted us to. We would not have seen the rise of ISIS. We would not have seen the displacement of millions of people in the country and the death of tens of thousands of people because they believed in Jesus or were Sunnis or Shiite. So I'm sorry we have a fundamental disagreement on it. I appreciate your service, but I'm not going to apologize for our government having done the right thing by removing Saddam Hussein from power.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[14:49:50] BALDWIN: So that was the back and forth. Wanted to make sure we showed both sides, both responses. Next, I'll talk to the veteran in that video, Ryan Henowitz. He joins me live after a quick break on why he chose to confront Karl Rove, what he thought of his response, and when he changed his mind about the war. Don't miss this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Just before the break you heard an Iraq War veteran, a medic, confronting Karl Rove and ask for an apology for the war that toppled Saddam Hussein's regime. More than 4400 were killed, most of them on the battlefield. And more than 31,000 Americans were wounded. That number doesn't include the number of Iraqis who too lost their lives.

Ryan Henowitz is with me, the veteran who you saw in that piece. He joins me from new haven, Connecticut.

Ryan, thank you so much for taking some time with me today. And thank you so much for your service to this country.

HENOWITZ: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: We will obviously get to the why on asking for the Karl Rove apology, but first let me just ask you about your service in Iraq. As I mentioned, you were a medic so you treated the wounds of war not only for American soldiers but for Iraqis as well, including children. What did you see there?

[14:55:01] HENOWITZ: I mean that's very true, Brooke. As medics we treat both sides of the battle. There was scenarios where I dealt with an Iraqi child that had gotten part of his foot sheared off from falling underneath a U.S. tank and the treads ended up shearing off part of his foot. So we stopped movement and treated the child best we could trying to suture his leg back together. But incidents like that happened during times of war, and I don't believe that that was taken into account with a lot of the decisions that were made higher up.

BALDWIN: So then why choose this venue and ask for this apology from Karl Rove?

HENOWITZ: Well, so Karl Rove came to the UConn campus to talk to the young Republicans there. Most of those individuals were about 20 years old, which was the same age that I was when I fought my first tour in Iraq. It's -- a lot of these individuals were between 6 and 8 years old when we did invade Iraq so a lot of them don't realize the reasons why we went to war and what had happened, the decisions. And I don't think Karl Rove actually answered those questions. He didn't address why it was a mistake for us to go there.

BALDWIN: We made sure to play the entire response and when you take this through current day and what has happened obviously in Iraq and what has happened with ISIS and the terrorists moving in and the fact that he was sort of saying, you know, the administration made the mistake of pulling out of Iraq too soon, would he have a point there, though?

HENOWITZ: I think the real point is that we had never had an occupying force that long and in that kind of a standing that's constantly at battle. I think what it shows is that there was bad planning to begin with. If it deteriorates to this amount afterwards, then maybe we should have done better and maybe the government should have planned better for this war.

BALDWIN: Why did you sign up to serve?

HENOWITZ: So I actually signed up in august of 2001, before September 11th. I signed up to provide a college education for myself, which was not able through financial means of my family, and to serve my country. I mean a lot of us, we choose to sign up and we fight for what we believe in. We love our country. But a lot of these wars aren't necessarily in the best interests of our nation. And I think that that's part of the problem.

BALDWIN: From everything I understand, what you've talked about in terms of all the years you were over there and serving, you never questioned any of the commands, any of the reasoning for being there. So my question then to you would be, Ryan, at what point, how many years later did you change your mind about you used the word last week useless, this useless war?

HENOWITZ: I mean, I look at it as going back during my first tour. During the invasion in '03, we were greeted with roses in the streets. Everyone was loving us at the start of the invasion. Even by the end of the invasion, there were protests in the streets asking us to leave. They were asking us to leave and allow them to govern themselves and do their own thing. So I started seeing even before my eyes that there was some question amongst the validity of the war, even then in '03. When I went back in 2005, you saw the mayhem and the aftermath that was still going on. I think that that really led me to question what was the reasoning.

BALDWIN: I understand. And watching your questioning and asking for an apology and listening to Karl Rove's response, both you were applauded for your question, but he also got an applause for his answer. Granted, I wasn't there. I don't know everyone who was in the audience. I know it was hosted by the college Republicans, but why do you think that was?

HENOWITZ: I think a lot of that comes down to the fact that the face of the anti-war movement and the face of asking for help for our veterans has to come from a veteran and not from the general public. And I think that by having us stand up for ourselves and stand up for the next generation that might fight these wars is an important issue for our veterans.

BALDWIN: All right. Ryan Henowitz, again, thank you for your service, sir. And thank you for the time today. Thanks, appreciate it.

HENOWITZ: Thank you very much, Brooke.

[14:59:59] BALDWIN: Let's continue on here. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.