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GOP Covers New Hampshire: Who Will Stand Out?; Jurors Struck By Hernandez's "Indifference"; Iraqi Forces Struggling To Hold Ramadi. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired April 17, 2015 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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[10:37:43]

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN ANCHOR: And for Republicans vying to be the party's next presidential nominee, there's only one place to be this weekend: New Hampshire.

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FEYERICK (voice-over) 19 GOP hopefuls in all, both official candidates and those expected to jump in the race, gathering for a two-day leadership summit. The event, well, can't get a ticket, it is sold out. But for New Hampshire residents who couldn't score a ticket, well, there's still a chance to hear from would-be nominees because, guess what, there'll be fundraisers, town hall meetings. You can also greet some of the voters (sic).

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FEYERICK (on camera): All of these things are on the agenda for many of the contenders. One of those contenders, probably the most prominent right now, Jeb Bush, hoping to show that he's more than just a famous last name.

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JEB BUSH, FORMER GOVERNOR OF FLORIDA: I going to have to prove that I'm not running for president if I go beyond the consideration of this to being an active candidate trying to break the tie between the Adams family and the Bush family. That's not my -- really isn't my motivation, but I have to prove that.

First and foremost I have to show my heart. Secondly, I have to show that I have ideas that make it possible for America to rise up again. And third, I have to show that I have the leadership skills, not just to yap about it, but to do it.

FEYERICK (voice-over): And for her part, Hillary Clinton will get a chance to answer her Republican rivals next week with a two-day trip of her own. Hillary's New Hampshire swing kicking off on Monday and aides tell CNN that the former - that that format will be similar to her Iowa road trip. Expect roundtables with students and small business owners coupled with private meetings with Democratic officials.

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FEYERICK (on camera): Aides say those round tables will be small, likely no more than 25 people.

And joining me now, Jeff Zeleny, CNN senior Washington correspondent, Nia-Malika Henderson who's CNN's senior political reporter.

Jeff, let's start with you in New Hampshire, 19 presidential hopefuls blanketing the state over the next few days. Who has the most to gain? Who has the most to lose? And who do you think will come out on top? I mean, looking at those faces, some people, you know, we don't even remember that they are running, like Carly Fiorina who's throwing her hat in, Mike Huckabee as well, and Scott Walker.

[10:34:58]

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Right, I mean, the 19 includes several long, long shots. This is a forum where everyone is invited, everyone is welcomed in to come in, you know, meet these activists. But as we just saw from Jeb Bush there, I think all eyes will be on Jeb Bush as he begins to articulate the ideas of his candidacy.

He's not yet formally announced, but some other Republicans are already sort of taking a few swipes at him, which we saw happening just a couple days ago in New Hampshire already with Chris Christie. He said he doesn't know where Jeb Bush stands on foreign policy. So, Jeb Bush will be the center of attention here and how all of the other Republicans either react to him or ignore him will be the story line that I'll be watching.

FEYERICK: So the most popular, if I'm hearing you correctly, is the one that gets attacked best?

ZELENY: Well, sure, I mean, the person who's at the front of the pack, you know, we're always watching for that, but it's far, far too early to say, you know, who is going to come out the favorite this weekend.

This is the most wide open Republican field we have seen in recent memory here. So, New Hampshire voters like to surprise. They like to give people second chances and some hope here.

So, we'll be watching this. This is the first of many, many events like this in New Hampshire and it's a different electorate than Iowa. It's a more moderate electorate in some respects. So, we always watch to see what these candidates say in New Hampshire, but how they answer the questions from these Republican activists is always worth watching.

FEYERICK: Okay. Well, Nia Malika, you heard Jeb Bush earlier. He was joking about his family's political dynasty. Right now he is near the top of polls for Republican voters, but how does he appeal to the independents in New Hampshire who often are credited for deciding what happens?

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: That's right and they're very mavericky. The quintessential candidate there was John McCain who really trounced Jeb Bush's brother back in 2000.

So, I think he's off to a good start sort of joking about the dynasty issue which will hang over his head, particularly in New Hampshire because they do tend to like the underdog. They like people who are sort of unexpected. So, I think the challenge for him is, on the one hand, it is a moderate state but they also like candidates who are sort of moderate with a twist.

So, he's got to figure that out. He talked about showing leadership. He's also got to show up, right? He's got to show up and show that he's able to do the work and wants to do that kind of hand to hand, patting on the back, really kind of intimate settings that they're used to in New Hampshire because these are very engaged voters, activists voters.

So, they want to see those folks there early. They want to see them there often. And he's got, I think, a lot to lose in that setting. And you've got some others, people who are lesser known, people like Marco Rubio.

FEYERICK: Right.

HENDERSON: People like Scott Walker who they might be more willing to give a chance.

FEYERICK: Yes, and it's interesting because we can't forget the dynamic between former Governor Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio. Really Bush was a mentor to Rubio and that tension right now certainly hasn't been made public. The field could get even more crowded, Jeff, tonight because now we're learning that a spokesman for Mike Huckabee says that Huckabee will, quote, "make an announcement about 2016 on Fox News."

Huckabee, which is a strong conservative heir (ph), and also, I'm sorry, Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio are also in the mix as well. So, how does a guy like Huckabee actually make inroads into this field, or tell me about that?

ZELENY: Sure. The former Arkansas governor, Mike Huckabee, of course, he hosted a Fox show for several years, and he went off the air earlier this year to get ready for a presidential run.

His aides say he is going to make that announcement tonight in the 6:00 hour. Most people expected he will run, and he has run before. Don't forget, in the 2008 campaign, he won the Iowa caucuses. So, he has a tried and true sort of record of that respect.

But the reality is, time has passed him by a little bit in this big Republican field. There are so many people he's competing with. So many people are in his lane. He does not have the social conservatives locked up this time at all, but he is something of a rock star, a big rock star, among that wing of the party. So, if he decides to run tonight, he will have a strong showing. But fund- raising has always been a challenge for him and his record as Aransas governor will also come back to haunt him as well.

FEYERICK: All right. So, I'm going to put both of you on the spot. After this weekend, Nia Malika, who are the top three people who emerge dominant in the GOP?

HENDERSON: You know, I'm going to go with Jeb Bus, and this is, you know, nothing special I'm saying here. I think it's going to be Jeb Bush, it's going to be Marco Rubio, and I think Scott Walker. And these are people, I think, who've got some room to grow. And I'll throw Rand Paul in there, too, because, remember, Ron Paul came in second last go around. So, I think the people who are doing well already and have a constituency will continue to do well.

[10:40:00]

FEYERICK: All right and, Jeff, your top four now? Three obvious, one wild card.

ZELENY: I mean, we will let the voters of New Hampshire decide this, not here us on CNN, but I think Nia's right. I mean, Jeb Bush, Ted Cruz, Scott Walker, Rand Paul. Those are the candidates to watch, but the good thing about these primaries are anyone can come up and, you know, the activists can fall in love with them. So, far, far, far too early to narrow this field just down to three.

FEYERICK: It's the come from behind, but we'll see what happens this weekend. Jeff Zeleny, Nia Malika Henderson, we thank you both so much.

HENDERSON: Thank you.

ZELENY: Thanks, Deb.

FEYERICK: And still to come --

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even if there was no premeditation, he could have made choices there when he was there. He was there. They admitted that. And he could have made different choices, and he chose not to.

FEYERICK: Up next, CNN's Anderson Cooper sits down for an exclusive interview with all 12 jurors in the Aaron Hernandez murder trial. Hear why they say the former NFL star is guilty of cold blooded murder.

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[10:44:44]

FEYERICK: Extreme atrocity and cruelty.

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FEYERICK (voice-over): That is how jurors describe the actions of former New England Partiot star, Aaron Hernandez, after the killing of his friend, Odin Lloyd. In an exclusive interview with CNN's Anderson Cooper, the seven women and five men who decided Hernandez's fate are now opening up about their difficult decision after nearly 40 hours of deliberations.

Jurors explained in their own words why they believe that in their hearts they made absolutely the right decision.

KELLY DORSEY, HERNANDEZ TRIAL JUROR: It was his indifference, and that was part of what I had to look at. And it was -- even if there was no premeditation, he could have made choices there when he was there. He was there. They admitted that. And he could have made different choices, and he chose not to.

JON CARLSON, HERNANDEZ TRIAL JUROR: I think one thing in that regard that surprised a lot of us was that indifference. And we watched the video footage at his home later in the morning or early afternoon, after the incident occurred. And he was just lounging around by the pool and playing with the baby and just going about his regular life.

I mean, you know, for us to have knowledge that he was there at the time that his close friend was murdered, personally, there's no way I could just carry on hours later like nothing ever happened. That's indifference.

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FEYERICK (on camera): And let's talk about all of this with former prosecutor, Dan Schorr. We're also joined by psychologist, Dr. Jeff Gardere. Thanks so much to both of you.

Dan, first to you, indifference, this really made a difference for the jury because they could not believe that somebody could kill someone, or even be at a murder, and act so cold bloodedly after it all went down.

DAN SCHORR, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Right, it's important to note that originally the defense was saying he was not at the scene, but then at the end in closings they said he was at the scene and he just saw his good friend killed by two other people.

The video shows him hanging out in a very casual manner with them right after. He's handing one of them his infant daughter to hold and then he's playing with his daughter in a pool. So, this is inconsistent with someone who just saw his friend be murdered by the people who were in his house. And that was very powerful for the jury as they convicted him.

FEYERICK: And I want to -- The Bristol County sheriff who watched him, who monitored him, who spoke to him, had something very, very interesting to say about that indifference and maybe where it came from. Let's take a listen.

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SHERIFF THOMAS HODGSON, BRISTOL COUNTY, MASSACHUSETTS: I ran a criminal division when I was a police officer years ago, and he's the best I've ever seen. He's a master manipulator.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How do you mean?

HODGSON: Well, he pays attention to everything that's going on. He knows how to use his charm better than anybody I've ever seen to get what he wants. He also is extremely adept at compartmentalizing. He can compartmentalizing something, as he did with his father's death, to a point where he just doesn't accept it, or realize it, or make it a part of reality. And he just pushes it away. When he was at our facility, he often talked about the fact that he didn't see it as jail, he saw it as his training camp.

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FEYERICK: So, that is so interesting to me. Do you think that his father's death was so traumatic to him that he shut down all emotions, shut down any ability to be vulnerable by feeling things more deeply? And obviously I don't know him, but I'm asking you as a professional. Do you think, based on indifference, the master manipulator, that's a factor?

DR. JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think it is somewhat of a factor. Certainly he said that he had a very close relationship with his father, though we don't know the type of man that his father truly was. But when we deal with these sorts of traumas, what we do is we institute these coping mechanisms or defense mechanism, and for him it would be pushing down, stuffing down those feelings and then having a personality style of just not dealing with emotion at all, which could relate to being that cold blooded killer.

FEYERICK: Dan, for him to mouth the words, you know, you're wrong and then later say to somebody you got it wrong, his defense miscalculated by initially not putting him there and then actually saying, okay, he was there but he didn't do it. He didn't pull the trigger.

SCHORR: He's never been convicted (ph), he's still denying it, but that's his right. He's not going to say, okay, you got me, I did it. So, he's still saying he didn't do it. He still has an appeal. He still has another trial that he's facing for two other alleged murders, so of course he's going to maintain his innocence.

As far as being a master manipulator, yes, he manipulated people, but he was ultimately caught. He was convicted of first-degree murder. He's going to prison, most likely, for the rest of his life. So, he's not the master manipulator that maybe he wanted to be.

GARDERE: But the other part of this is that he has to live with himself.

FEYERICK: Right.

GARDERE: And how do you do that? Well, you engage in denial. You engage in isolating your affect and your feelings, because at the end of the day, you still have to see yourself as a human being and you don't want to view yourself as a monster, even though you have behaved in that way.

FEYERICK: Do you think he cracks? Do you think there's that moment, that epiphany, that realization that, oh, my god, I have killed another human being? Although he will fight it, so let's say allegedly for the time being even though he has been found guilty.

[10:50:02]

GARDERE: I think after years and years in jail, as he gets older, as we see with anti-social sociopathic personalities, that as they get more knowledge and more wisdom in old age, they begin to come to the realization as to how they've destroyed their lives and destroyed the lives of others.

And I think it's that baby daughter of his who one day will confront him when she visits him in jail that will get him to finally crack open that ice cold heart that he now has.

FEYERICK: I want to talk a little bit about the jury. Dan, it's very rare as a journalist, and I've covered a lot of trials, to see jurors coming out as a group, as a team, to talk about this verdict.

What do you think is going on? And then I'm going to ask you from the psychological point of view.

SCHORR: Sure. Well, they were very impressive in the interview with Anderson Cooper. Sometimes jurors don't seem like they focused on the law enough. They really knew the law. They talked about what was appropriate evidence, what was not. They talked about what they needed to prove for first-degree murder.

FEYERICK: Right.

SCHORR: So, they spent a lot of time together, so much time deliberating so they stuck together.

FEYERICK: Built a relationship. And, Jeff, very quickly, but it also seems this is like any other murder trial really, except you're passing guilt on Aaron Hernandez, so psychologically do they feel they have to validate the decision that they made?

GARDERE: Absolutely in that it is difficult for them because this is a great tragedy. A person lost their life and this person, Aaron Hernandez, $40 million contract, threw it all away. So, A great American tragedy all the way around.

FEYERICK: Right, it really brings things into perspective. Dr. Jeff Gardere, Dan Schorr, thank you so much. We always appreciate your insights. I'll be right back.

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FEYERICK: Just minutes from now, an Ohio man is due in court to face accusations of a home grown terror plot.

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FEYERICK (voice-over): Abdirahman Mohamud is being charged with providing material support to a terror group and lying to federal officials.

According to an indictment, Mohamud traveled to Syria to receive training with the terror group before coming back to the United States where he planned to kill soldiers at a military base.

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FEYERICK (on camera): Turning now to Iraq where government forces are struggling to hold off ISIS, the rampaging extremist fighters threatening to seize control of Ramadi.

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FEYERICK (voice-over): These are new images of families fleeing the city for Baghdad.

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FEYERICK (on camera): Now, joining me now is CNN chief national security correspondent, Jim Sciutto.

Hey there, Jim. Well, listen, what is going on there with Ramadi and what's going to happen?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, it doesn't look good. I mean, those pictures today are just so stark, people voting with their feet. And we're talking about tens of thousands, an estimated 150,000 people that have fled Ramadi.

[10:55:57]

Now, in the midst of that, you have Iraqi officials inside the city saying the city is in danger of falling. They need more enforcements from Baghdad. They want more U.S.-led air strikes. They've been getting some air strikes.

Yesterday we heard from the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General Martin Dempsey, who in effect conceded that the city may very well fall. Then he went on to make the case that it's not strategically important, that they would want to get it back, but that if it does fall, that's not major loss. Those comments not well received by all those people you're seeing there who had to flee the city. And it really gets, Deborah, at a broader problem here.

You know, this is in the Sunni heartland of Western Iraq. Those are mostly Sunnis you're seeing coming out of there. The government in Baghdad is dominated by Shiites, and trying to bridge that gap has been a goal. And if you have - if you give the impression that the Shiite-led government's not willing to spill Shiite blood to rescue a Sunni city, which is the way it's being received there, that's a real problem when you talk about that kind of unity you need in this fight against ISIS.

FEYERICK: Sure.

SCIUTTO: It's hard to argue that losing Ramadi is not a big deal.

FEYERICK: Right, and the new Ramadi - sorry, the new prime minister is trying to be much more inclusive, or collaborative, with the other side but it's not -- it takes time.

General Dempsey did play down the importance of Ramadi, as you said, but listen to what Senator Lindsey Graham said on "THE SITUATION ROOM."

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WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Senator, let's talk about what's going on in Ramadi. Now, were you upset when you heard the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff basically saying Ramadi, bricks and mortar. He seemed to be downplaying the fact that there are 150,000 refugees, and then you hear Arwa say, she was there, there may be another couple hundred thousand people who are fearful of their lives if ISIS takes over.

SEN. LINDESY GRAHAM, (R) SOUTH CAROLINA: Not only was I disappointed, I was disillusioned because your reporter understands it, apparently, better than the chairman of the Joint Chiefs.

This is a test of the new government in Baghdad. If they will not fight for Ramadi, if they will not send the Iraqi army to protect the Sunnis, why should the Sunnis try to get back into the government? This is a test of the new Iraqi government. She understands it, apparently, better than General Dempsey.

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FEYERICK: So, Jim, what do you think the Pentagon is likely to say to that comment?

SCIUTTO: Well, I think they would probably disagree. But, listen, it's an argument. I spoke with Senator Graham yesterday as well. It does get to one of the key issues here.

If you're claiming that you are pushing ISIS back now, and yes there was a victory in Tikrit just a couple of weeks ago, but then you're losing the biggest city in Western Iraq, 60 miles from Baghdad, it's hard to claim that this is all moving in a positive direction, and there really is a bigger picture issue here with that unity that we've been talking about, Deborah.

It's hard to make that argument in particular to all those people we see running out of that town for their lives in effect.

FEYERICK: Absolutely, it's tragic. It's become a significant humanitarian crisis. Jim Sciutto, thank you so much.

SCIUTTO: Thank you. FEYERICK: And I'm Deborah Feyerick. Thank you so much for joining me today. "@ THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND BOLDUAN" starts right after the break.

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