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Migrant Ship Capsizes, Hundreds Feared Dead; EU Agrees on Emergency Migrant Plan; Distress Calls Heard from Migrant Ships; ISIS Massacres Christians; New Poll Shows Rubio Surge; Christians Targeted by ISIS; Iran Charges U.S. Journalist. Aired 1:00-1:30p ET

Aired April 20, 2015 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer. It's 1:00 p.m. here in Washington, 6:00 p.m. in London, 7:00 p.m. in Tripoli, 8:00 p.m. in Baghdad. Wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us.

We start with multiple rescue missions underway right now in the Mediterranean Sea. Crews are responding to distress signals from as many as three vessels carrying hundreds of migrants from North Africa. Over the weekend a similar ship went down near the coast of Italy. Hundreds of people, including women and children, are missing. It's the latest disaster taking the lives of migrants fleeing across the Mediterranean trying to get into Europe. Earlier, we heard from Italy's prime minister.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATTEO RENZI, PRIME MINISTER, ITALY (translator): This is not just our problem and none can accept -- no one can accept that some people can be locked in a vessel and they are sold to these criminals and then die.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Our Karl Penhaul joining us live from Catania in Italy. What's the latest, as far as the victims are concerned, the survivors? What do we know, Karl?

KARL PENHAUL, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, we're expecting, in the next couple hours or so, 27 survivors from that weekend shipwreck to arrive here in the port of Catania. They'll be off-loaded They'll be given health and psychological checks and then the authorities are going to want to debrief and to find out exactly what happened Saturday night and early into Sunday. Because initial survivor reports suggested that maybe between seven to -- 700 to 950 people had been on board that vessel.

The Italian prosecutor, this afternoon, used caution and said, we don't know that for sure right now. But he's going to get -- want to get to the bottom of that to find out how many people may have died, because only 28 survivors have been picked up, 24 dead bodies have been picked up and the fear is that the remainder could be trapped in the hull of that vessel which has sunk to a depth of more than one mile deep.

But, of course, then, look to the rest of the day and you only get the impression that this migrant crisis is escalating because in the afternoon hours, we got a report of another migrant boat sinking off the Island of Rhodes just off the Greek coast. Eighty-three people on board there; at least three confirmed dead. We understand a rescue operation is still ongoing there.

And also now, we're hearing of three vessels in trouble just off the coast of Libya. They had also been heading towards Italy. One of them put out a distress call. We understand that one of them is taking on water. And now, we're hearing that NATO warships are heading to that area to try and rescue as many as 200 to 300 migrants on each of those boats -- Wolf.

BLITZER: You know, Karl, the European Union ministers, they've been meeting today. They're trying to come up with an emergency plan. What, if anything, did they actually come up with?

PENHAUL: They have several levels that they want to try and to solve this problem, Wolf. One is to get to the deep rooted causes of this problem. Well, that's going to be a long shot because what they're talking about is diplomatic moves to help failed states succeed again so that those migrants won't want to come to Europe in the first place. They're talking about tackling rampant poverty.

Of course, the richer nations have been trying to do that for decades and it really hasn't worked. Perhaps, where they will get most success is putting more resources, more money and more boats into the search and rescue operations to pull migrants off these rust bucket vessels before they sink and before migrants drown.

And that really is a tacit admission of their own failure because only last week, there was a lot of criticism that the European Union had not put enough money into its triton program which is this year's program to try and help migrants as they come ashore. So, now, more funding, more vessels into the search and rescue operation. But that, again, could encourage more migrants to head this way towards Europe, because they'll feel that if they get into trouble, they will be picked up more quickly -- Wolf.

BLITZER: With a failed state and a lot of terror going on in Libya, you can't blame these people for trying to get out. The whole country has virtually collapsed. Karl Penhaul in Italy for us right there at Catania.

Let's move on, here's where the emergency stands right now, this according to the United Nations. An estimated 35,000 migrants have crossed to Europe this year. More than a third of those have done so in the past 10 days. Last year, 3,500 migrants died crossing the Mediterranean. So far this year, 1,600 in just the first three and a half months and these numbers don't count the tragedy over the weekend or the ships calling for help right now.

[13:05:04] Joining us via skype is Francois Capo, the United Nations Special Rapporteur for Human Rights of Migrants. Also joining us, our Military Analyst, retired Major General James Spider Marks. General, Italy's prime minister says he won't launch a military operation there but still wants to bring the traffickers to justice, stop the flow of these migrants from North Africa trying to get into Europe, especially into Italy. Can that really be done, though, without a military operation?

MAJ. GEN. JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS, RETIRED, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: No, I don't think so. That's the arm of government that really has the ability to solve a problem or at least start toward a solution of a problem of this magnitude. There has to be a military solution embedded in a greater diplomatic solution. But certainly, Italy can do this as a sovereign nation. They can also do it inside the organizational construct of NATO.

BLITZER: Francois, the European Union says they'll double the number of search and rescue ships in the Mediterranean area over there. They say they're also ready to exit more money. What else do they really need to do? This is a human tragedy that's unfolding.

FRANCOIS CREPEAU, U.N. SPECIAL RAPPORTEUR ON MIGRANTS' RIGHTS (via Skype): The first thing is to save lives. And so, putting more boats out there and picking people out of the water is actually essential. The second thing they could do is that these people come for a reason. Many of them, many -- most of them, at least last summer, were refugees from Syria or Eritrea.

If -- you know, these people are stuck in Turkey, in Jordan, in Lebanon with no future in sight. They will come anyway because that's what we would do in their shoes. So, we should do what we've done for the Indochinese 30 years ago. We should have a comprehensive plan of action and resettle probably 1 million and a half or 2 million of those refugees before they get to the smugglers. It would be an orderly process, lives would be saved, asylum claim procedures would be avoided, you know, and the markets for the smugglers would be reduced.

BLITZER: When you say reschedule or resettle these people, a million people, where do you want them resettled?

CREPEAU: Well, in the global north. That's what we did with -- for the Indochinese. We took about 3 million Indochinese 30 years ago, we certainly can take 1 or 2 million Syrians or Eritreans now.

BLITZER: Take them and resettle them in Europe, is that what you're saying?

CREPEAU: In Europe, in North America, in Australia and New Zealand. I've calculated that if we take 1 million Syrians, for example, over the next five years, for a country like Canada, it's less than 9,000 Syrians per year. For countries like the U.K., it would be about 14,000 per year. Entirely manageable.

BLITZER: But you know, Francois, that if you're going to start opening up the doors to a million refugees there are -- what, there are 11 million refugees in Syria alone, half of the country. They've been displaced from their homes. If you add Libya, if you add Yemen, if you add Somalia, if you take a look at that region what's going on, you're going to want to resettle almost everyone in the Middle East and North Africa.

CREPEAU: Not necessarily. Not everyone wants to come here. Not everyone. And what is the other option? The other option is to continue trying to repress movements, movements that will happen. Migrants are -- you know, have agency, they just vote with their feet and they are coming anyway. They are coming in droves and many of them lose their lives. If we want to do the right thing, for (INAUDIBLE), for them, as well as for us, we're better to organize this and take the market out of the hands of the smugglers. Organize mobility is much better. It saves lives. It saves costs. It's much better for everyone.

BLITZER: Spider Marks, what do you think the U.S. role in this should be, given the fact that the United States together with Italy, together with several other European nations? They went in there. They launched cruise missiles. They got rid of Gadhafi. In effect, at least in part, they created this disaster in Libya, for example, right now, this horrible situation. A failed state with a lot of terror groups competing for influence. What is the U.S. responsibility, if any, in this?

MARKS: Well, Wolf, I don't embrace entirely the notion that the United States and its partners created the chaos that's in Libya today. Libya has had a challenge for years. What we were able to do was accelerate the departure of a -- of an incredible tyrant. The Libyans then had an obligation and an opportunity to stand up and try to put something right in place. That has not happened. And we've seen the collapse of governments throughout the Middle East and North Africa.

What I find most interesting about the proposed U.N. solution is nobody is talking about who pays for this? How does this work? Clearly, the United States can step up and it never has altered or stepped away from a challenge like this to embrace humanitarian crises like this.

[13:10:02] The issue really becomes, how do you get at the root cause? I totally agree, it's better to have a problem solved in Syria, and in Libya, and North Africa and elsewhere in the Middle East than it is to launch a bunch of folks on boats. And the only price of admission is how much they can afford to pay the smugglers. That's where we get into a real problem with the potential integration of terrorists in that type of a scenario that we see right now.

BLITZER: It's a real human tragedy that's unfolding right now. You're both absolutely right. Francois, thanks very much for joining us. Good luck in all the important work you're doing. Spider, thank to you as well. We have a lot more on this shocking story coming up.

But there's other shocking developments happening right now. ISIS going ahead, beheading, killing, Christians, more Christians in Libya right now. There's angry reaction, obviously. It's pouring in from around the world. We'll have the very latest. And on a very, very different note here in the United States, we have some brand new CNN polls showing a dramatic surge for Republican presidential candidate, Marco Rubio. We're going to dig deeper into all the numbers.

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BLITZER: New video released by ISIS in Libya shows the brutal execution of 30 Christian men. In the individual, a mass fighter warns that Christians must convert to Islam or pay a special tax. Then, a group of ISIS fighters purportedly kills all the Christian captives. One group of Christians appears to be shot to death in the southern part of Libya. A second group is beheaded on a Mediterranean beach.

Let's talk about this and more with our Chief National Security Correspondent Jim Sciutto and our CNN National Security Analyst Peter Bergen. Jim, we're not showing the video simply too horrific to show to our viewers, but what can you tell us about the latest development?

[13:15:05] JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, listen, in the simplest terms, it's sick. It's disgusting to watch these things. But it's also very slickly produced, as all their videos are, and it has all these kind of markers to deliver their typical message, one of which you have them in the orange jumpsuits evoking Guantanamo. There were actually two groups of prisoners. One on a beach that was beheaded in those orange jumpsuits. Another we saw a little clip in the still there in black outfits. They were shot in another place.

As they did it, they called back to this other beheading you might remember on the beach again in Libya, Egyptian Christians who were beheaded on the beach, another horrific one. And then they make reference to a sort of obscure mention in the Koran about how Muslims offer Christians a chance either to convert or pay a tax. These Christians refused. And what's interesting about that is it shows how ISIS - there's this big debate now about whether they're Islamic terrorists, whether they represent Islam at all, they at least take great pains to tie what they do to the Koran. You know, bad interpretations of it, but this is what they do going back to really medieval interpretations. Things like, if you don't pay a tax, we're going to kill you.

BLITZER: And in this video, I don't know if you've seen it, but it's about a half an hour in length, very slickly produced, the narrator says, and I'm quoting now, "to the nation of the cross," meaning Christians, "we are back again on the sands." So why - what's the point? What are they trying to achieve from the propaganda point of view of ISIS? Why do they have to show - remember a few months ago they beheaded a whole bunch of Egyptian Christians. Now these Ethiopian Christians are being beheaded or shot in the head. What's the point? What are they trying to achieve from their propaganda perspective?

PETER BERGEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, I think from their perspective, they are - we are in the final end of times. They believe in certain kind of prophecies. And one of the - they have a magazine called "Dabiq (ph)," which is their sort of, you know, propaganda magazine in English. Dabiq is a town in Syria where they believe the final confrontations between Islam and the forces of Christianity is going to take place. And they see these kinds of attacks on Christians as part of a fulfillment of the prophecy. As Jim pointed out, if - you know, there is a Koran verse saying if you don't convert to Islam you can pay a tax. But if you don't pay the tax we can essentially as the tax -

BLITZER: They say in the - the narrator says, "perform prayer and pay hams (ph)," which means you have an opportunity to convert to Islam and you won't die. Is that it?

SCIUTTO: That's right. And they also, in this video, they make reference to other Christians in Mosul and Iraq that were made the same offer. Apparently they refused the offer. They were killed. I mean this is the thing, though. It's not just Christians, of course, who are the target. Shiite Muslims as well. Yazidis, you know, all these old religions that are in that area of Iraq and Syria that they control, they're all targets.

But I think what's particular about it when they go after Christians is that part of that message is meant for us. It's showing that you, in the west, are targets as well and they know that these images have particular provocative power for them.

BLITZER: The - one group is beheaded, another group is shot in the head. Is there a symbolic difference in that from their perspective? Do you understand what they're doing?

BERGEN: I generally have no idea. I mean typically they've beheaded their victims. But I - you know, there is nothing in the Koran about shooting people because obviously these kinds of weapons didn't exist in the seventh century. So I just don't get it.

BLITZER: The other thing and the other video that's come out, they're trying to recruit young people. And I'm going to show some of this video to our viewers right now. They're using kids in an amusement park, this is in Iraq, to try to brainwash these kids about the ISIS terror group. Is this an indication ISIS is feeling some sort of pressure from Iraqi forces, Shiite militia forces, especially after the latter helped liberate Tikrit? What's going on over here, Peter?

BERGEN: Well, I think there's a just - this is a message that we've seen repeatedly, which is, if you come to the caliphate we've created, there's going to be - you're going to have a very ordinary life and do the kinds of things that ordinary people do around the world. That's the message that was being communicated with this video. Not very often though that you go to a kids game where one of the kids is sort of holding an automatic weapon, but that's the message being communicated.

BLITZER: They're trying to show that life is good under ISIS rule.

SCIUTTO: No question. And this message, it works, right? When you look at the number of Europeans and Americans as well who've attempted to go there, they buy that message. Not only the cause, but that they're going to find some sort of happiness and fulfillment there. And more and more, not just young men who have been the typical target group, but young women as well.

BLITZER: I want both of you to stand by because we have more to discuss. Up next, an American journalist held in Iran, now after nine months - nine months in prison, he knows what he's actually accused of. We're going to tell you the charges, the U.S. reaction to those charges. Stay with us.

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[13:23:09] BLITZER: For the first time since he was detained by Iranian officials nearly nine months ago, we now know what "The Washington Post" reporter Jason Rezaian is being charged with. His brother tells CNN that the charges are espionage, collaborating with a hostile government and spreading propaganda. Here's the reaction from the State Department here in Washington only a few moments ago.

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MARIE HARF, STATE DEPARTMENT ACTING SPOKESWOMAN: If the reports are true, these charges are, as we said in the past, patently absurd. He should immediately be freed so he can return to his family. The charges should immediately be dismissed. But, again, no confirmation officially from Iranian judicial authorities yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right, Jim Sciutto, our chief national security correspondent, is still with me.

You've done a lot of reporting on this. I know you've met Jason over the years as well. What are the Iranians up to now? Why don't they just release these - there's a handful of Americans they're holding. They're about to get, if this deal goes through, a huge bonanza, billions of dollars in frozen funds that will flow into Iran.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

BLITZER: Why can't they just release these Americans, let them come home?

SCIUTTO: Well, what's interesting here is that Jason Rezaian is caught less between the U.S. and Iran than he is caught within - between factions inside Iran. You have the hard line faction that tends to run the judiciary there against the more moderate one, President Hassan Rouhani, who initiated these nuclear talks, Javad Zarif, the foreign minister, et cetera. There is a read of this situation where almost to embarrass the moderates you take this American there and you now put him up on these trumped up charges. I mean you look at the case, I mean they really are absurd.

You know, some of the evidence I was talking and interviewed Jason's brother, Ali Rezaian, on "State of the Union" yesterday, the basis, for instance, on the espionage charges was partly him introducing two Iranian Americans, one who works for a prominent think tank here and another one. I mean it's the kind of thing you do over coffee.

BLITZER: Right.

[13:24:58] SCIUTTO: I mean it's not like he was interviewing - introducing clandestine spies in a hidden away place. I mean it's really trumped up. And it took them nine months. Keep in mind, he's been in prison for nine months. It took them nine months to come up with this and now go to the public. So it's, you know, no one involved in this thinks these charges are true but he's become a pawn in a real political conflict in that country.

BLITZER: And Secretary Kerry, when he was negotiating the nuclear deal, the framework, still no final deal, they deliberately decided to keep -

SCIUTTO: Yes.

BLITZER: The fate of these Americans, a handful of Americans who are being held in effect hostage in Iran right now, separate from the negotiations over the nuclear deal.

SCIUTTO: That's right. And they keep - they have, to be fair, Secretary Kerry and others have raised the Jason Rezaian case and the two other Americans, Amir Hekmati being held there more than two years now.

BLITZER: He's a marine.

SCIUTTO: Former Marine. And Abedini. He's a pastor who was proselytizing there and he's been -

BLITZER: A Christian.

SCIUTTO: A Christians pastor. But it's been a decision the Obama administration has separated, not just the cases of the three Americans there, but all the other issues, whether it's support for terrorism or, in fact, Iran's horrendous human rights record with its own people. Those issues are over here. We're just talking about nuclear issues here. And I'll tell you, that's been a subject of frustration for Jason Rezaian's family and the families of the others because they have been sitting here waiting. They would make the argument that you have leverage now with these nuclear negotiations to push for the Americans to be released and it's leverage they don't believe that the American government is using.

BLITZER: Yes, and they would like to use that. And if you saw that story in "The Wall Street Journal" over the weekend, they're going to get an initial, you know, bonanza, $50 billion. You'd think for $50 billion, if they lift those sanctions, at least the first wave of sanctions, they would release a few Americans that they're holing.

SCIUTTO: Right. Not bad for a day's work, right?

BLITZER: Yes.

SCIUTTO: I mean that's a significant amount of money to come immediately.

BLITZER: You would think - you would think they would do that.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

BLITZER: But - but that would be that. All right, thanks very much, Jim Sciutto, for that report.

SCIUTTO: Thank you.

BLITZER: Much more news coming up right after this.

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