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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Rally At Baltimore City Hall; All 6 Officers Charged In Gray's Death Post Bond; 3 African-American, 3 White Officers Charged In Gray's Death; Less Than One Hour until Baltimore Curfew
Aired May 1, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COPPER, AC360 HOST: Good evening, 9:00 P.M. in Baltimore, the City Hall, thousands of people gathering there. We've seen them marching throughout the day, the curfew just an hour away. People are still out of the streets across the city. A very different kind of outpouring that we've seen so far this week.
And the mood, different because six Baltimore police officers involved in arresting and transporting Freddie Gray have now been charged in his death including the one -- the driver was second degree murder. All six posted bond tonight, the crowd is out in the streets cheering that somewhat unexpected decision -- or the speed certainly of it by Baltimore State's Attorney Marilyn Mosby to bring those charges today.
Others, including the local police union calling it a rush to justice, and questioning her objectivity. Lots to get to in the next hour, I want to go first to Miguel Marquez who is outside City Hall. Miguel?
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so when that -- when the State's attorney spoke today and brought those charges, I thing you could hear the collective jaws across Baltimore dropping and hitting the ground. Right now what is going is very, very touching. You have person after person in New York City Hall, taking their microphone and telling their own story.
This is something that we have heard all week long. I mean, individuals coming up to me (ph) telling them a story about how they we're abused by the police or their father or their mother or their brother or their cousin and that's what's happening here tonight. The March was the biggest we've seen that I've seen in two weeks since (ph) I've been covering this, and it was the most diverse as well.
Whites, black, old, young, people from all over the country as well I meet today. Three different marches came together at the place, the epicenter here, Pen in North, Pennsylvania in North Avenue here. And, they then march here to City Hall which is also become a great symbol here for this protest and now sort of a celebration.
The one thing you hear across the city though is that despite the charges and how happy they are today, they are not altogether certain that the court process, the legal proceedings will treat them the same, that anybody out here would be treated if they we're in the same situation. Anderson? COPPER: Miguel, thank you. We'll check in with you a lot in this next hour. I want to get the latest on the investigation, because the investigation is still ongoing and everything else that went into the decision today to charge those officers. Evan Perez has the details on that. He joins us now. Can you just take through what went into this investigation?
EVAN PEREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well Anderson, you know, in the case of the medical examiner office which just turned in its results today, they said they put resources into this investigation, more resources into this than they've done for almost anything else, simply because they knew the public was watching.
In the case of the state's attorney, they've brought in outside experts, they didn't just depend on what the police we're doing. As a matter of fact, it was quite a surprise to us when the state's attorney this morning said, that all along she's been doing her own investigation. She had brought in the Baltimore City Sheriff's Office to help her. In fact they're the ones the served the warrants for the arrest of these officers.
So, it's quite extraordinary circumstances that they had for this investigation.
COPPER: And Evan the six officers involved, they posted bond, what do the next few days hold for them?
PEREZ: Well, they're home now, or at least they're on their way home. And so, they get to spend their weekend with their families. The Mayor today said that they're going to be suspended and now, you know, they're going to be getting ready for trial and, you know, they're hiring lawyers and getting ready for their own defenses.
Now, you know, what's going to be interesting Anderson, is, how the legal process starts from here. Whether they -- you have officers who flipped and decide that they're going to turn on each other because obviously there are some that are charged with really serious crimes here, murder that could get them 30 years in prison and others that have much lighter charges. And so those people would have a lot of incentive to turn against some of the others.
COPPER: Evan, appreciate your perspective. Thank you. Joining me now is Forensic Scientist Lawrence Kobilinsky of the John Jay College of Criminal Justice. Also our Legal Analyst Jeffrey Toobin and Sunny Hostin, Sunny as we always mention is a friend of Baltimore's mayor.
Jeff Toobin, it's interesting because it's not as if these are six officers who work together all the time, who ride around together, they're in the same unit they're not necessarily officers who all have an allegiance to each other. And one is the guy who happens to show up because he was driving the wagon. We don't the relationship between some of the other officers. But the likelihood of one of those officers at least turning on the others is very real.
JEFF TOOBIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: It's very real and also, that's a good point for the prosecution. But one of the problems for the prosecution is going to be to establish motive. Why do they want to do this to this guy? Why -- particularly the driver who was charged with the most serious crime, what was his relationship, had he even had any contact with Freddie Gray because he's on the side of divider, why would he engage in this sort of conduct?
[21:05:04] That is -- I mean -- maybe it's just that the Baltimore police, this is how they treat black suspects and that's the motive. But, the prosecutors are going to have to establish a story for why the story unfolded the way it is.
COPPER: Sunny Jeff's point is very important because the driver of the wagon in the video doesn't seem to have any real interaction with Mr. Gray as he's being put into the wagon and it's left up to -- I believe the opens the door and then I think he goes back to the front of the wagon. I think it's officers -- other officers who put him in the wagon and choose not to buckle the seatbelt, it's not clear that this driver had any actual interaction or physical contact with Mr. Gray.
And so if that is in fact the case and given the charges against him, it would seem to be the idea of a rough ride is the way the state's attorney believes these injuries occurred.
SUNNY HOSTIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Yeah I think that makes sense. I mean this prosecutor is going to have to prove this reckless disregard for human life, that there was an intentional act a willful act and that act was so reckless and so bragged (ph) leading to someone's death. And so we're going to hear I think -- I suspect -- a lot about these rough ride.
If you're the prosecutor, you've got to talk about the history of rough ride, what that means. You got to talk about the fact that this -- or prove that this driver knew about rough ride, perhaps that this driver knew that this -- that Freddie Gray was not belted in. It's not the easiest case quite frankly to prove that given the fact that I'm hearing around Baltimore, with people that I've spoken to that they received rough ride and that this was something that was done within the Baltimore Police Department.
I suspect that is where this prosecution is going.
COPPER: Jeff, and if -- I mean if you look at this person's record, we don't -- we haven't found anything yet. If there's no history of this driver having done this before and unless there's video evidence or somehow GPS evidence but more surveillance camera evidence of why it turns around corners, erratic driving, it could be a very tough case.
TOOBIN: And I think Sunny previous a legal fight that might take place at the court. I think she's right that the prosecutors will want to introduce evidence about rough rides, about patterns of behavior in the Baltimore police. And the defense will say, you can't introduce that into evidence, there's not proof that my client, the driver had ever done this before.
You can't establish some sort of pattern without showing that my client, the defendant is even aware or has done this before. So -- those are the kind of fights...
TOOBIN: ... that are likely to happen.
COPPER: And again, Lawrence Kobilinsky, we don't have the medical examiner report, but the state's attorney, the prosecutor today asserted that Freddie Gray receive or suffered a fatal spinal injury while being transported, but that doesn't mean he didn't also sustained injuries while being arrested doesn't it?
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: I think that's absolutely right. It sounds to me like the prosecutor has ruled out that any injury occurred during the arrest. And I can understand what the basis for that is. Perhaps when we see the autopsy report, when we hear about X-rays or MRIs or CAT scans and we see evidence of the damage to the vertebrae then maybe a case can be built.
It depends on a compression of the vertebrae or -- we try to find out what happened to Mr. Gray. Was his head pushed back during the ride, was it pushed laterally, was it a hyperextension...
COPPER: And the medical examiner would be able to identify that?
KOBILINSKY: I would think by looking at the vertebrae and the fracture pattern, they should be able to determine exactly what happened to their head relative to the neck. Yes.
TOOBIN: We've seen the video many times of Mr Gray being put into the wagon. He does appear injured in that way. Now whether he's actually very seriously injured, that's something that we don't know. But you could see the defense saying, look he was injured earlier, this is -- you can't blame us for what went on in the van.
COPPER: Sunny, Mark Geragos in our last hour were saying he believe prosecutors all the time overcharge in order to force some soft of a deal, force somebody to rollover on other defendants. And he believes that maybe the case here even in the case of the driver, that that's maybe why the driver has the most aggressive charges in the hopes that he might rollover. Do you believe that?
HOSTIN: Well of course Mark Geragos said that, but no I don't believe that, I don't think that's a fair criticism.
[21:10:00] When you look at the evidence or at the least the allegation that this prosecutor put forth, I think actually there is support for every single charge. I mean we're talking about, you know, manslaughter via vehicle, she's charged this driver with, their support for that. She charged him with second-degree depraved heart murder; they're in support for that. Misuse of office (ph), they're in support for that.
And so I think while certainly there's a breath (ph) of death of charges here, I don't think its fair criticism to somehow say that prosecutors are overcharging here. And that's a criticism that prosecutors get from defense attorneys all the time. And in this particular case that is not just fair criticism.
TOOBIN: I think the prosecution strategy might be somewhat different. I think they maybe looking for the lesser culpability, those officers to flip. I think, you know, the ones who may only have seen things who weren't as seriously involved to the injuries, I think they're the more likely to flip on the driver. It's usually the top person who's the target not, you know, you expect the other to people to flip not the top person.
COPPER: Jeff Toobin, Sunny Hostin, Lawrence Kobilinsky, thank you.
We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, as the curfew approaches, what we know about Freddie Gray's ride in the police van, what we may learn and how that might play out on court, and the curfew now less than 50 minutes away and thousands still out there in City Hall.
[21:15:00] COPPER: Again, a large gathering tonight at Baltimore City Hall, a lot of marchers throughout the day having crisscross the city, gravitating back to one of the symbolic focal points all week.
Brian Todd is there for us tonight. Brian, earlier we heard people speaking about their experiences, their run-ins with police. What are you hearing now?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson they're still doing some of the same things here but they're also kind of breaking into song and changing and it's just become a very festive atmosphere here. Festive yet still serious and on message, people are still saying -- as we've been hearing all night, we won't be completely satisfied unless they get convictions in this case.
We're winding our way back with the crowd here, there's people carrying this banner up in the shadows of City Hall. What we'll be telling is in -- less then -- about half hour or so when the curfew hits and what police will do. Curfew has not been popular Anderson but it has been respected. And the reason for that is -- we talked to so many people here who say that the legacy that they want people to take from this, the legacy that they want their city their leave on this case is of this, of civil disobedience in respectful and peaceful way.
And not of the violence that occurred on Monday night and, you know, the rampage, and the looting, the burning. This is the legacy that they really leave with the American people. As you wind this week of protest, this rally here in the shadows of City Hall is culminating what has to have been the longest march. It had to have gone about six miles throughout the city, Anderson.
COPPER: Brian Todd, thank you. Miguel Marguez, also at City Hall in another location within that large crowd, he joins us again with more of the prosecutions theory of how Freddie Gray lost his life. And again, we didn't get a lot of information from the prosecutor today.
Mark Geragos saying, surprisingly a lot -- in fact he things she went too far and with other -- actually unethical of the amount of information that she released, but can you just take us through exactly what we learn from Ms. Mosby's press conference today?
MARQUEZ: It was fascinating not only to hear those charges but, you know, Baltimore police all along have said that their police officers had done nothing wrong to cause Mr. Gray's injury. But they -- the celebration here is celebrating those charges interestingly enough, but we are learning for the first time a heck of a lot more from that state's attorney about how Mr. Gray died.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
This is where it all started say prosecutor on Sunday April 12th, Freddie Gray walked out of this show with a cup coffee and looked police officers directly in the eye.
Gray run, the store is just down there. He went to this narrow alleyway that they have here, zigzagging, trying to get away from police.
That's where the original arrest was made and then police moved him to this location right here, putting him in a painful leg lace hold. Police reported that he had switch (ph) laid on him, in reality it was something more like this, a knife perfectly legal here. The state's attorney saying there was no reason for the arrest.
MARILYN MOSBY, BALTIMORE CITY STATE'S ATTORNEY: Lieutenant Rice, Officer Miller and Officer Nero illegally arrested Mr. Gray.
MARQUEZ: It was here the state's attorney says Gray said he was having trouble breathing and asked for an inhaler. His request denied, he was placed in the transport van and not buckled in.
This is Baker Street, the first place the transport vehicle carrying Mr. Gray stopped. In the little video we have we can see him hanging in half in, half out of the van. This where the state's attorney says that he was shackled by the legs, his arms behind his back and then was placed in the van head first on his stomach. And she says it was that treatment that led to his death.
MOSBY: Following transport from Baker Street, Mr. Gray suffered a severe and critical neck injury...
MARQUEZ: This was the second stop for Mr. Gray, captured on the surveillance cameras of that store there. Despite it being a condition check for Mr. Gray as they say, the driver of the truck checked him out, did nothing for him, and then drove on for third time without buckling him in.
This was the third stop for Mr. Gray in the transport vehicle -- two times says the state's attorney -- he asked for medical assistance here two times, he was denied. The only thing she says officer did for him at this location was pick him off of the floor of the transport vehicle, put him on the seats, still not buckled in.
This was the forth stop for Mr. Gray, the exactly corner where all of these started. The state's attorney saying that the only female officer Alicia White checked on him then, speaking to back of his head, he was unresponsive. And for fifth time they failed to buckle him in.
This was the final stop for Mr. Gray, the Western District Police Station now under heavy guard despite the fact that it's only a few blocks from where he was arrested it took nearly an hour to get in here. Once here they first turned their attention to the other prisoner in the transport vehicle, then Mr. Gray.
[21:20:04] By then, he'd stopped breathing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COPPER: And Miguel, I mean, from the protesters that you've been talking to, I mean you've been talking to folks for two weeks now. But in terms of
COOPER: And Miguel, I mean, from the protesters that you've been talking to -- I mean you've been talking to folks for two weeks now -- but in terms of the tender (ph) of things you've been hearing today, what are they telling you about their belief in the charges?
MARQUEZ: Well, look, they're incredibly grateful that he is being charged but they are very uncertain that it will ever lead to anything. I mean, everybody you talk to in that neighborhood feels wronged by the police in some ways. And I've said this several times that neighborhood -- I've spent a couple of weeks there now -- it feels like there's an invisible wall around it and that it is war between the people in that neighborhood and the police.
That dynamic has to change hopefully as -- this is a start but, you know, people are telling me, he was treated like an animal and that has got to end. Anderson.
COOPER: Miguel Marques, thanks. I want to bring in Legal Analyst and Criminal Defense Attorney Mark Geragos, also retired NYPD Detective Harry Houck.
You know, it's interesting, Mark, that the details about the maneuvers of the police van, what happened to Freddie Gray. There's -- I mean there's obviously still so much we do not know, a lot of information, of all the information was released -- that hasn't been released, as an attorney, what would -- what do you want to know? What details are you most interested in learning?
MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: If I'm representing the driver, I'm going to make the argument that he was already injured and those -- it was pre-existing and anything that happened in the car or the van had nothing to do with his death. It was a pre-existent condition. If on the guys who were doing the arrest, it's going to be the
opposite argument. They're going to be making the argument that look, they've charged the driver. They claimed that he is the one who did this rough ride. All we did is we arrested him. Great, there is no probable cause, so what?
COOPER: There's not going to be unity among all six of these defendants?
GERAGOS: No. There can't be. The theory is that they have charged here are almost designed specifically to put them at odds with one another.
COOPER: Harry, you used to work on internal affairs for a time in NYPD, is that also a technique that was used in internal affairs?
HARRY HOUCK, RETIRED NYPD DETECTIVE: Yes without a doubt.
HOUCK: I mean, just because they're cops there's anything different than when you do this to criminals. All right? You used the same tactics...
COOPER: You get -- you try to get somebody to turn on somebody.
HOUCK: Always try to get somebody turn especially if your case isn't really that good. That's when you really want somebody say -- like the driver being charged with a second-degree murder. I mean, that's big charge. You know, you can scare him to death, thinking, listen, you're going to jail for 30 years, pal, all right? So, you know, we'll give you a break but we want to know what these other guys did.
COOPER: It seems -- Jeff Toobin was making the other argument that it would probably be the person with the least amount of charges with their hoping to maybe flip and to get them against the person with the most amount of charge.
GERAGOS: I don't think that the arresting officers have got that much to fear depending on who their jury is. The guy who's got a lot of fear is the driver.
COOPER: Although, it -- for the driver, it -- unless there's evidence and we don't know -- unless there's evidence that the diver actually have physical contact with Mr. Gray, the only way that the driver could have been injured Mr. Gray is by driving erratically.
GERAGOS: Right. In doing the stop and -- the stop and go. And based on what I've -- we've seen at least, there's a defense that he is going to use and he doesn't know what's going on the back. He can't say.
I'm sure he's going to say something to the fact (ph). I assume they had him belted in or cuffed in, nobody told me anything. I'm driving the van. I'm supposed to be looking out. I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. So, everybody is going to have their unique defense position and it is
not a slam dunk by any means in disguise.
HOUCK: You know, that Officer driving that vehicle knows that he did not give him one of those rough rides. You know, he's not going to be -- he's not going to turn because of that. I mean, he knows himself, what he did in that van.
COOPER: And that's the driver of the vehicle they were showing right now.
HOUCK: Right. So, if he is being charge with second-degree murder, his lawyers are going to say to him, "Listen, did you give this guy a rough ride, yes or no?" All right? And this guy will say, "No, I did not and I didn't do it."
So, and his attorneys are going to tell him, they're not going to get a conviction on you (ph) in second-degree.
GERAGOS: There's some interesting dynamic here which I think we've talked about but, they're talking about -- the police and the community are also talking about three African-Americans and three white officers. And so, that dynamic I think is -- I think, we're going to kid ourselves if that -- we don't think that that's going to come to play.
I think at some point, there is going to be a lot of pressure from the community on the African-American officers here to do something.
COOPER: It was also interesting though to have the attorney for the police -- from police union early on. And this was -- I don't know, a week ago, I guess, when I interviewed him, he was immediately pointing saying whatever happened, happened inside that van did not occur during the arrest.
You know, you could -- there's a conspiracy theory and that, is that he's trying to pin it on one police officer as oppose to the involvement of some other police officers but that's just a conspiracy.
[21:25:00] GERAGOS: Right. I know it sounds like a conspiracy theory but it sure -- I have the same reaction when I saw it. Why are they already speaking out this ground? Why are they saying that it had to have happened in the van as opposed to before? Because as you saw with Professor Kobilinsky, you know, there -- it looks like on the tape of this young man that he was severely injured before they put him into the van.
COOPER: Although, Harry, a lot of police officers I've talked to say, "Look, there's plenty of people who -- when I've made an arrest, drag their feet, scream out...
HOUCK: Including me.
HOUCK: I have experienced that a dozen times. That happens like all the time, almost. And during the back seat of the radio car, they get crazy. They start kicking inside of the radio car. They're trying to kick the glass out. You got us (ph) now you got pull over so we got to shackle this guy, we're going to shackle his feet and that's why, I think, when they pulled him out of the van like I told before is because he might have been kicking and, you know, going crazy in the back of the van so they had to stop him and they had to shackle him, right? But, of course, they didn't buckle the guy up like they should have.
GERAGOS: Yes, but you know, the interesting thing -- and I saw this today when it came -- there was a leak from the police department saying that he had injured himself.
GERAGOS: You know, I can't tell you the number of case as where that is the de facto default position of the police. Where they say, "OK, we've got a resisting arrest and why did the guy" -- and I'm looking at my client say, "Why you all beat up?" And then you look at the reports and they said he threw himself face first into the pavement. He threw himself face first into the flame (ph). That's always a default position of the cops when they injured somebody is to say, he was trying to injure himself.
COOPER: Again, there's a lot we don't know and I think it's important to keep stressing that.
Mark Geragos, thank you. Harry Houck as well.
Just ahead, Marilyn Mosby came out swinging in her first big case as Baltimore's top prosecutor. She comes from a long line of police officer. Her past job she holds today. And how it might shape her handling of the case? That next
COOPER: Just about half an hour from the curfew after a day of mass demonstrations in Baltimore, including this one right now at City Hall, demonstrations of support for the decision to charge six police officers in Freddie Gray's death.
Jason Carroll is there for us, he joins us now. Are the crowds starting to move because of the pending curfew?
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is started to thin out just a bit Anderson. Many of the people here who were here earlier decided it was time to sort of move on, but you still have a dedicated bunch that are left here. Wanted to stay beyond the curfew, still listen the speakers up here Anderson.
Chanting slogan such as peace but also it's important to be powerful. You've been hearing this all night. So many of this people who are out here especially when we're marching to the streets of West Baltimore feel so disenfranchise, they feel as though tonight is the first night in many, many years that they finally have a voice.
As we were marching through the streets of West Baltimore, people were actually, Anderson, coming out of their homes. Grandmothers coming out, I saw one woman coming out coming out to the crowd to shake their hands, people in their windows coming to the windows to cheer the crowd on. You could really sense a feeling that finally so many people who feel they haven't had a voice for so long finally happened. Anderson?
COOPER: All right, we heard that a lot today. Jason, I appreciate your reporting as always. We've said that, Freddie Gray case has put Baltimore's top prosecutor Marilyn Mosby in the national spotlight for better and worst. That spotlight gives a big microphone to her harshest critics well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHEAL DAVEY, ATTORNEY FRATERNAL ORDER OF POLICE: We believe that the actions taking today by the state's attorney are in egregious rush to judgment and we have great concerns about the fairness and integrity of the prosecution of our officers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Baltimore's Fraternal Order of Police, they're calling for independent prosecutor to replace Mosby. She's made it clear she's not going anywhere just as the prosecutor in Ferguson, Missouri made it clear he wasn't going to go where. She of course in Baltimore is new to the job, the youngest top prosecutor in any major U.S. city.
Randi Kaye takes a look now, the path that she took to get there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RANDI KAYE, CNN INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: After her 17-year-old cousin was gunned down on her doorstep in broad lay light, Marilyn Mosby had her first brush with the justice system.
MOSBY: Having to go to court and deal with prosecutors, having to go to court and see my neighbor who had the courage and audacity to cooperate with the police, to testify in court. And the way in which the district attorney's office dealt with my family is something that inspired me.
KAYE: That was back in 1994 when an office in Baltimore City Hall wasn't even on her radar. Mosby grew up in Boston where her mother and father were police officers, and her grandfather was one of the first African-American police officers in Massachusetts. She talked about how that impacts her view with CNN's Don Lemon. MOSBY: I think it gives me a well-rounded perspective, you know, I come from five generations of police officers, so law enforcement isn't stilled. I understand the time, the commitment, the sacrifice the peacefully police officers make.
KAYE: In 2002 Mosby became a first generation college graduate, graduating magna cum laude from Tuskegee University in Alabama. She went on to study law at Boston College. After graduating law school in 2005 she joined the Baltimore City Attorney's Office as an assistant D.A.
Mosby worked as insurance company lawyer before making this bold announcement in 2013.
MOSBY: I am running for state's attorney for Baltimore City.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah.
KAYE: She won, vowing to be more aggressive on police misconduct.
KAYE: 35-year-old Marilyn Mosby just took office in January. Now, she's at the center of the Freddie Gray case, with her decision to charge the six officers involve in his fatal arrest without directing her comments to the Gray case she told Don Lemon, officers must be accountable.
MOSBY: Those officers that usurp their authority, you have to be able to hold them accountable because it does a disservice to the really hard working police officers. And so, for me it's about applying justice fairly and equally to those with or without a badge.
KAYE: Even so, that hasn't stopped the police union from calling for her to recuse herself from the Gray case, siting the fact her husband Nick Mosby is a Baltimore city councilman.
[21:35:10] MOSBY: I uphold the law, he makes the laws. And I prosecute any case within my jurisdiction.
KAYE: But this isn't just any case and for a D.A. who has never tried a murder case before there is no room for error.
Randi Kaye CNN, New York.
COOPER: And back with us, CNN Legal Analyst the Former Federal Prosecutor Sunny Hostin who again used to live in Baltimore, he's friends with the mayor there. And joining us, CNN Legal Analyst and Criminal Defense Attorney Mark O'Mara who of course famously represented George Zimmerman in the Trayvon Martin murder trial, Mr. Zimmerman you'll recall was acquitted.
Sunny, I mean you listen to Marilyn Mosby's history, the fact that she comes from a long line of police officers. I can't help but be reminded Bob McCulloch the prosecutor in the Michael Brown case who also came from a family of policemen. This time though it's the police calling for the appointment of a special prosecutor in the -- the case -- Darren Wilson, it was -- it was the supporters of Mike Brown calling for a special prosecutor.
HOSTIN: That is true. I think Bob McCulloch had a different relationship with the community quite frankly. He was known to -- or at least many people felt in the community that he was unfairly slanted toward law enforcement. And he had a history according to the community of backing police officers and not charging them.
I think in this instance, Marilyn Mosby's lack of experience, quite frankly is helpful to her in terms of the perception of the community. Because they feel that although she has this law enforcement background they can trust her. She doesn't have that kind of track record...
COOPER: You're talking about...
HOSTIN: ... so while I see people will inevitably...
COOPER: Your telling that the African-American community though, among -- in the police community certainly what we're hearing is that because of her husbands connections with the neighborhood -- the Freddie Gray I believe where he lived in -- I think it's where lived. And also the support that -- Freddie Gray -- the family attorney actually gave her in order to get elected. I think he donated $5,000 to her campaign they feel that's undue influence.
HOSTIN: And I've got say, I think that's a fair criticism. And I've been hearing that all week from people in Baltimore. There are those that certain support her, they think that she is a fresh face, they think that because she is so young -- I bet she brings that sort of exuberance to this office that she's not tainted with some people have told me.
But many, many people had told me that she's inexperienced, and that quite frankly they are not certain that this is the kind of case that she should be handling because they believe she does have a conflict with interest, because her husband is the city councilman that quite frankly whose district is the -- is in the district that this occurred. And they also have pointed out the fact that Billy Murphy the Gray family attorney was sort of the architect behind her campaign. So, there is criticism...
HOSTIN: ... that I think is fair.
COOPER: Mark what about that I mean, Marilyn Mosby's husband is a councilman and was the district for Freddie Gray where the incident occurred, now necessarily where he lived. And the donations to the campaign -- although I should point out the Fraternal Order Police also donated to her campaign, is there a conflict here?
MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: ... is young, I think one, she's increased her capital as a national spokesperson for promote justice in the inequality Senate, so I think that's going to be great for her.
I think she's going to rise up to the task of handling this case appropriately, but there going to be a lot of pressures one way or the other. I'm not sure how she's going to run the tight rope between being spokesperson for equality and inequality and also being a law enforcement officer herself with her family background. It's going to be tough for her but if she handles herself the way she did at that press conference today -- and the way she handle a press, then I think we're going to see great things coming from her under very difficult times.
COOPER: Mark, were you surprised at the announcement today at the speed of it?
O'MARA: I was very surprised at the speed of it, 10 or 11 days. I was also a bit surprised as to the way she charged everybody. Because in affect what she said was six out of six cops are criminals, probable cause that they committed crimes. A very unique position to take, I do think that she -- the way she structured her charging, that she anticipates working with the couple of the lesser included probably.
I also think that the -- the most significant charging against the driver -- she has to be-- know some cause that we don't know about, the way that van was driven...
[21:40:03] O'MARA: ... because the only thing that separates that driver from the other five is the fact that he was driving. So whether it was a stop and go, whether it was erratic driving, we'll know definitely in the GPS information when that finally comes to light. But that seems to be the only thing that separates him out and why she is focusing on him for the most serious charge.
COOPER: Right because as of now, there is no evidence of physical contact between the driver and Mr. Gray. We got to leave it there.
Mark, thank you, Sunny as well. Just ahead we're going to hear from community leaders in Baltimore about what today's news means to them and what they hope happens next.
COOPER: About 15 minutes to go until the curfew in Baltimore. The week ending calmly, quietly a stark contrast of course, from Monday night when an affordable housing center for seniors that was set to open in just a few months went up in flames. The building is owned by Southern Baptist Church.
I spoke with Pastor Donte Hickman this week and he said he would rebuild. Pastor Hickman joins me now along with Baltimore City Councilman Brandon Scott.
Pastor Hickman, when we spoke the other day, you told me you talked to a lot of young people who we don't see hope, what is the message that you think was sent to those young people today?
REVEREND DONTE L. HICKMAN SR., SOUTHERN BAPTIST CHURCH: I think the message of hope was resoundingly clear today in a world that we have experienced so much injustice, we finally gotten a process to start justice that hasn't happened in so many places in America and it's a great day for Baltimore.
[21:45:03] COOPER: And Councilman, I know you spent a lot of the past days in schools talking to young people. I'm wondering what you heard today from them and from others?
BRANDON SCOTT, BALTIMORE CITY COUNCIL: I was actually in a school when I got the news, talking to some leaders and they were -- like Pastor says, today is a special time, a (ph) message and hope to the City of Baltimore especially young people. But I think it's very and critically important that we as a city, as a community, capitalize on the hope will change everything as well as our city moving forward. That is what we need to do.
COOPER: Councilman, the fact that three of the officers involved are African-American, does that change the narrative that -- here at all do you think?
SCOTT: No, I don't think it changes the narrative but I also -- we also have to be careful and wait until we hear all the facts about what each and every officer did on the scene. So, I think that people have to understand that folks oftentimes, the communities like the one I grew up in (inaudible) they see it as a blue and black issue, not as a black or white issue.
So, that something that is critically important for folks to understand and that's the issue that we had to tackle not just in Baltimore but in this (ph) United States of America.
COOPER: And Councilman, I heard that from number of people that it's not a question whether the officer is white or black, it's have -- it's that shield, it's the badge and the power that it gives an officer in the community.
HICKMAN: I'm glad that we are evolving as a society and everything is not black and white. There are some shades of gray as it relates to justice. And I'm so glad that when the state's attorney made the decision on today, that she did so without vilifying or condemning good cops but she was pressing for justice for those who are not as good as they should be.
COOPER: Pastor, so many people saw that senior center that you've worked for eight years to try to get built burned down on Monday night. I'm wondering at this point, are there any updates in terms of the plan -- rebuilding the fundraising?
HICKMAN: Yes. On Monday night, we had faith but that faith was starting to materializing into reality when we spoke to the principals of the project namely the Walter Group, Capital Bank, Harkins Builders and Marks Architects that assured us that they would get right back on the project, and it may be four months, four to six months delay but before the summer of 2016, we should have that project up and running.
We are so overwhelmed by the support that we've been receiving that it will be more than that one building. We'll be able to go and down the block and develop even more affordable housing which will be a great model for this city and cities across America.
COOPER: Well, Pastor, it'll be great to cover that when it does get built and we look forward to that.
Pastor Hickman, thank you. Councilman Brandon Scott, always good to have you on. We'll be right back for the more reaction from Baltimore.
COOPER: Well curfew sets to begin in Baltimore about 10 minutes, crowd starting to disburse at City Hall.
With me again, CNN Legal Analyst and Former Federal Prosecutor Sunny Hostin and Former NYPD Detective Harry Houck. It does seem Harry that this curfew by in large has been implemented in a -- I mean in a very well-organized way.
HOUCK: Yes definitely, I mean they're doing great a job. And I don't think they're really that worried about anything tonight.
HOUCK: I'm kind of thinking that it maybe they might even lift this curfew in the weekend. Although I'm not 100 percent sure, it depends on what's goes tonight but the whole attitude of everybody today, they feel like they're -- they're relieved, they're relaxed, you know, I'm sure the cops are relieved and relaxed.
COOPER: But a curfew like this does have a big impact on -- a negative effect on businesses in town, I mean bars, restaurants, things like that. They're, you know, they're hurting when everybody has to...
HOUCK: Right. And they had been complaining to about it so, you know, I see them lifting this curfew earlier now.
COOPER: Sunny this does still have to in front of a grand jury but it's not an -- an investigative grand jury like we saw in the Michael Brown killing, correct?
HOSTIN: That's right, this is a different process. In Maryland under Maryland law, Anderson, for the second-degree murder charge and the voluntary manslaughter charges, the prosecutor will still have to present this to a grand jury. Unless -- she will still have to present it to a grand jury. And so, it's a very different process, it's not the process that we saw in the Michael Brown matter where the prosecutor Bob McCullough just presented every single bit of evidence to the grand jury to seek an indictment. That is not the process in Maryland especially for the other counts like the second-degree assault. She can just proceed charging them by information, but these charges, the higher level charges the homicide charges certainly will likely go in front of a grand jury.
COOPER: So an indictment is far more likely in this situation based on the system there?
HOSTIN: I believe so, I mean, especially given the facts that she hired this or at least employed this independent investigators. And so, we don't what kind of evidence she'll present to the grand jury but we certainly know that there is a significant amount of evidence that she will be able to present to the grand jury.
COOPER: You know, it's kind of interesting, Harry, the use of the National Guarding this case. In Ferguson there was a lot concern about National Guard being out in the streets, being very visible which they warrant, they basically guarding command center. Here the National Guard actually were very visible in the streets of Baltimore, even today when I was out there, very visible and yet it seemed to go -- I mean as good as it possibly could have.
HOUCK: Yeah, you know, the whole thing here is that, you know, after the first night of the rioting that was going on there, when the National Guard came out, I think people pretty much knew even some of the bad guys out there. Listen we're not going to mess around with the National Guard, there's going to be a ton of police out here, and then all of the sudden, you know, we got -- it's been really quiet...
COOPER: We also had so many...
HOUCK: ... community...
COOPER: ... right, and so many community...
HOUCKL: ... they all came out...
HOUCK: ... you know, and imagine with the National Guard. I mean, I would probably bet you to say that the National Guard might leave tomorrow.
COOPER: But again that influence of community leaders of men in community, of women in the community coming out and policing themselves was huge.
HOUCK: That was very important...
HOUCK: ... and I like to see that even after this is done.
COOPER: Yeah, Harry Houck, Sunny Hostin thank you...
HOSTIN: And Anderson just... [00:05:00] COOPER: We're sorry we're out of time Sunny because I got to get break in before we turn to Don. The curfew in Baltimore is just minutes away, some people going home, plenty still out there. We're going to put the night and the week in perspective next. We'll be right back.
COOPER: We got a minute so to go before our curfew. I want to go to Don Lemon who's standing by outside the City Hall. There's still lot of people out there, have they start make announcements about going home?
DON LEMON, CNN TONIGHT ANCHOR: I haven't heard any announcements but I'm seeing protesters are still here in the park in front of City Hall which you're very familiar with Anderson. Into my left, you know, there's intersection over there and there cops lined up in the intersection with their shields.
And, you know, we are hoping that people are going to comply but there are people still out here in the park, that they're still out here this evening with one minute away as you're throwing it to me, it doesn't appear that they're going to be in their homes by 10:00, Anderson.
COOPER: And obviously, for a lot of these people they've walk a long distance to get there so they're going to have to walk home. It's hard to get ride, so again, a lot of questions for how police are to handle it. Don I know you're going to be covering it all this evening. Thanks very much for watching everybody, I'm going to toss (ph) this to my friend Don Lemon, Don.
LEMON: Anderson Cooper thank you very much, great coverage over the last two hours in Baltimore (ph) Street.
You know, this is CNN Tonight, I'm Don Lemon it is exactly 10:00, just before 10:00 here in Baltimore.
[22:00:00] You can hear the police helicopter overhead, there people out on the streets. This is the fourth night in a row for a citywide mandatory curfew that is now in effect. Baltimore City is really different tonight.