Return to Transcripts main page
Jubilation On The Streets Of Baltimore After Six Officers Are Charged With Freddie Gray's Death. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired May 1, 2015 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00] DON LEMON, CNN HOST: There are people out in the streets. This is the fourth night in a row for a city wide mandatory curfew that is now in effect. Baltimore City is different tonight. There is jubilation in the air at the stunning turn of events that no one really expected, at least not this soon. The six Baltimore police officers who arrested Freddie Gray are now under arrest themselves, they are charged in connection with his death. And so now, that it is 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time in the city of Baltimore. Everyone is wondering what will happen now. What will happen now, because there people who are still here out on the streets. They have been told that there is a curfew that has to happen every night, they have been very defining, if we could at the crowd. They have been saying that this curfew should no longer go into effect, but that doesn't what's happening now. The state's attorney, Marilyn Mosby, today, left no doubt where she is on this issue.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARILYN MOSBY, BALTIMORE CITY STATES'S ATTORNEY: The findings of our comprehensive, thorough and independent investigation, coupled with the medical examiner's determination that Mr. Gray's death was a homicide, which we received today, has led us to believe that we have probable cause to file criminal charges.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So today, I sat down with Marilyn Mosby for a very candid discussion about this case and she talks from the heart really about why she became a prosecutor, a cousin who is like a brother murdered at age 17.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MOSBY: He was mistaken as a neighborhood drug dealer and if it wasn't for the testimony of a neighbor who cooperated with police, who testified in court, our family wouldn't have received sort of justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: We have a lot to get to tonight. I'm going to begin with what's going on here. If you can look at the live pictures now, we're hearing a police helicopter over head right now. And they have been making those announcements every single night. It is 10:00 p.m. for most of the time here during the week, except for -- you know, what happened on Monday, everybody has been complying with the curfew. But it appears tonight that people are not complying with this curfew. It is 10:00 p.m. just after, two minutes after and there are still people out in the streets. There are still people in the parks right now. Police are lining up where we are and getting ready to arrest people, I would imagine if they don't comply with this. I want to get straight to CNN's Miguel Marquez, who is out in the crowd. Miguel, where are you and what are you seeing?
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORESPONDENT: Yeah, we're in the crowd here at city hall and sort of, have been civil disobedience I think that's going on right here. I'm on the march on the way down here, many these protesters talking about defying the curfew tonight -- and Eddie (ph) if you come around this way, you see that the helicopter took off from the police department right there and it has been circling around the city hall for mostly for the last several minutes. And Eddie (ph) let's take a little walk, I want to show you this Don, right on the outskirts of city hall, we're going to right over here with these guys, so the media vans are all set up along over here. We're going to go right over here, guys. The police are -- have riot shields on one side of the block and on this side, they have the horses here which will move in as well. And you can see right down at the end of this block, how they are starting to assemble as well. All the police in riot gear. I can hear the clock now on city hall ringing 10:00 p.m. This could be, perhaps, be the most tense evening. People -- people in this crowd today, expecting that curfew would have been lifted, now that charges have been brought and there is a different sensibility in Baltimore. So, it's a, it's a wait and see now, Don.
LEMON: Yeah. It is, it is - Miguel and you know we have been out here every evening and it appears that they have complied. The question is Miguel, what are they going to do if these -- if the folks here are not -- you know, being unruly and as you said, it is civil disobedience and they're not burning anything or looting anything, they're just standing their ground. The question Miguel is what happens now?
MARQUEZ: Well, I think just like you've seen up at pen and north the last several nights, they will move in to the ground zero at city hall and they will try to move people out. It looks like people are starting to get to their feet now. It's not entirely clear what is happening here -- but, it's looks like they will --
LEMON: Hey, Miguel.
MARQUEZ: Try (ph) to engage in some -- you know, level of civil disobedient and, and flout the police, yes.
LEMON: Yeah, Miguel, I want to get to the camera where we are --
MARQUEZ: Go ahead, Don.
LEMON: So this is right -- if you can -- this is my hand right here, you can see, that's my hand. So just behind me, we are seeing police officers here that are line up behind us, they're in the -- their riot gear, tactical gear, I should say --
MARQUEZ: Here we go, here we go, here we go --
LEMON: Getting ready to come in --
MARQUEZ: Right here Don, look at this.
LEMON: So -- OK. Go ahead, Miguel. Let see Miguel.
[22:05:03] MARQUEZ: There they are. This is the back side of city hall and you can see the police lining up here. They're bringing in the -- THE heavy trucks that they've had, the armored trucks that they've had here all week and the police are now beginning to line up. They're coming in from both sides here and they are going to clear --
LEMON: They're telling them on our side to come in as well, if we can get to the camera where we are. Let's get back to the camera where we are. They're telling them to come in. There they are. Riot gear coming in, right over our shoulder --
LEMON: Yes, and they're getting the people here from city hall. They are about to move in on them to get them off of the park here at city hall.
MARQUEZ: They are all lining up. They have almost -- and there is the announcement from the helicopter --
LEMON: So the camera right --
MARQUEZ: Telling people to go home, that there is a curfew in effect.
LEMON: So -- the camera where we are is on the left of the screen, where Miguel is on the right of the screen. Take this camera, the full center camera right in front of me Danny (ph) if you can, and I can show the - the police officers are right behind me. You can take that camera. And you can see behind me here. There they are. Over our shoulder, they're getting ready to move in and as - as Miguel said, they have been announcing overhead, we've heard the police helicopter going in and out overhead. So, we're just going to stand here and watch and wait with you. This is happening for us. We don't know what's going to happen. And so we're trying to figure it out as well. Miguel, where are you in this crowd? What's going on where you are?
MARQUEZ: We are at the far side of City Hall Park, where the police are lining up here. I'm going to jump in the shot right now so you can see where I am. You have -- it, it looks to be at least a hundred police officers and it's all from sheriff's officers, police officers, it doesn't look like it's all Baltimore PD, in fact, it looks like it's all from departments outside of Baltimore, but they have been a massing (ph) on this side. The protesters are like there the middle. It's only a small amount of them, maybe 60 or 70, most of them have sat back down and clearly, they are intent on engaging in civil disobedience. Most of these protesters are the people out here, their -- they are a very mixed group. African-American, whites, very young, it looks to be a lot of students in that group as well. So, it -- clearly, these are people who have planned this. I did hear some of the chants during the -- during the march down here, that they were --
LEMON: Back to our camera. There we go -- they're moving in Miguel, where we are. So there we go --
MARQUEZ: Yeah, they are moving in -- they are moving in, they are moving on your side as well.
MARQUEZ: They are stepping --
LEMON: Yeah, they are moving --
MARQUEZ: On our side.
LEMON: So, the people have -- they've sat down in the park, the protesters and now, these officers are about to approach - the approach of protesters in the park, who are -- for the most part, many of them sitting down and they're standing their ground in the park. So, Miguel, let's just, let's just be quiet - let's just be quiet for a little bit and see what happens here. See how this all plays out. So, bear with us, everyone. Let's look at -- so, if you're just joining us, it's eight minutes after 10:00 p.m., after curfew has come into effect in Baltimore. Police are now entering the crowd of protesters --
MARQUEZ: Here we go, here w ego, here we go --
LEMON: So, they are now entering the crowd of protesters as Brian Todd out in that crowd as well. They're moving in. Miguel is out there. They're arresting people. You can see there, on the left of your screen, you can the arrests, there they are. We're going to just -- let this play out for you. Brian, Brian I see you --
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Don --
LEMON: Let's listen to Brian.
TODD: We're moving out, Don.
LEMON: Let's listen.
TODD: OK. Don, the police -- the police are saying for us to move back. We're moving back. They're pushing people out of the plaza. Leading with their shields and basically, moving us all out of the plaza. If you can hear me Don, I'm not sure if you're taking our shot here but, may I have just --
TODD: Arrest --
LEMON: We can hear you. TODD: A few people there. OK. They just arrested a few people right
there. Actually, a photojournalist Tom (inaudible), Tom if you can pan, (ph) just zoom in there. They're still arresting a couple people, apprehending some people there at the corner of the plaza. They have moved in and as they moved in pushed us all back --
LEMON: OK, Brian --
[22:10:09] TODD: We said move back, move back.
LEMON: I need to get to Miguel Marquez. Miguel, what do you have?
MARQUEZ: We have at least three arrests here. Talked to a few of these guys who have been arrested, we're walking -- we're going to walk right by your position now, Don. They say --
LEMON: Here we are. Take our camera, Danny, take (inaudible).
MARQUEZ: -- has the comment the way the put it. We're walking right behind you.
LEMON: There's Miguel right here.
MAQRQUEZ: Right here. Three arrests --
LEMON: Yes, I saw it.
MARQUEZ: Just been taken out of city -- the City Hall Park.
LEMON: Got it.
MARQUEZ: Most of the people scattered --
LEMON: We just walked by it.
MARQUEZ: And went towards the horses where we were earlier. Pretty -- pretty dramatic scene, with people sitting in the park waiting to be arrested. It's around here. (inaudible)?
LEMON: And we see more people being arrested back that park as well, Miguel.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something has to happen --
LEMON: But keep going, Miguel.
MARQUEZ: So, he's saying, look, something has to happen. So this is where they're bringing them now and they are going to continue with their arrest procedure.
(CROSSTALK) LEMON: And we see a mad rush -- on the -- I don't know if you guys
have a camera over there on the park. I don't know, Brian Todd's camera is showing you, but there's a mad rush on the other side of the park over here, next to the media --
MARQUEZ: So they're -- they're taking this individual into city hall.
LEMON: OK. Brian Todd, what are you seeing?
TODD: Some of the -- Don, can you hear me?
LEMON: I can hear you, go ahead.
TODD: Don, can you hear me? It's Brian. OK, we had a real may lay over here. We're being moved away from the satellite truck where there was waylay (ph) between police and some protesters. We got one protester over here, on the ground being arrested. We're right here with him and the police are trying to move us out of the plaza, it moved us out in the plaza, but there was like, just a really frenetic waylay (ph) over here by the satellite truck were there are several protesters pushing against police. It started -- we were right here when it started. It was an older police commander, a man in a white shirt came in and just grabbed one of the protesters and started to pull him, that's when a lot of the other protesters converge on them and these riot police came in here and just shoved everyone around and got this man on the ground here, he is being apprehended.
LEMON: How close will they let you for in there --
TODD: Very frenetic scene.
TODD: Well, they're letting us get pretty much right on top of this arrest, it seem right here, Don, but they have --
TODD: Pushed us away from the plaza.
TODD: And they are now --
LEMON: Brian, I need to get to CNN's Jason Carroll --
TODD: They are now bringing this part of the street.
LEMON: With people of being arrested and cuffed. Go ahead, Jason.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Isaac (inaudible) --
JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So, Don, we're right here as two people were brought under arrest. A man and a woman, this man right here just taken into custody. You can see he's been handcuffed and the one behind him there, that is a woman, she was also arrest -- she was also taken into custody here. We're not too far from Brian Todd's location. A number of officers descended on these two here --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Move it out of here. Let's go.
CARROLL: Descended on these two here and two others who were on the other side by that pole over. This all started, as you know, as a number of these protesters, about two dozen or so formed a circle in the middle of the quad area there in front of city hall. These officers descended upon them, and then they're now taking them into custody and putting them into some of the wagons over here. I have to tell you, Don --
LEMON: Jason --
CARROLL: But a few of the protesters who came out here earlier tonight, and I want to emphasize just a few, made it very clear from early on, they were not going to honor, honor -- we're having an announcement here from the officers. We're going to move back. A very few number of protesters, Don, made it very clear they were not going to honor the curfew. And so they have made it very clear early on this evening that they were going to stay and when I asked one of them, I said what happens when the curfew comes and the police come. They said, we will just get arrested, so it's very clear that a small number of the protesters who are out here and again to (inaudible) a small number had made it - had made a decision very early on, that they would be arrested if necessary. Don.
LEMON: Jason. Hey, Jason, I don't know if you can hear me. Such a difference tonight, Jason, than, than other nights. But, I -- there was someone walking behind me being arrested and I ask to talk to them and the officer wouldn't let him come over. Jason, if you can get in that crowd, I'd like to hear what people are saying. If you can just let our viewers hear what's going on and take us in the middle of it, I would really appreciate it.
[22:14:52] CARROLL: Well, sure. Let's see if - let's see if we can move in here, Don, as another one now is being taken under arrest. Jimmy, wants follow me here this way. You can see another being brought into custody here. This is all happening very quickly. We'll try to catch up as we can. My photographer Jimmy is -- pretty fast.
LEMON: And just let us listen to it if you can, Jason. Once you get there.
CARROLL: so, as we move through -- so as we move through here --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It all right? Back up, back up, back up.
CARROLL: Sure, sure, sure, absolutely. Would you like to make a statement and all of that (inaudible)?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, (inaudible). My name is Danielle, D-A-N-I E- L-L-E. DILLARREAL, D-I-L-L-A-R-R-E-A-L, 10/31/82.
CARROLL: What -- what happen --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: D-I-L-L-A-R-R-E-A-L.
CARROLL: Sir, can you explain what happens at this point when these people are taken into custody?
(CROSSTALK) CARROLL: So Don, you can hear there, they're just trying to keep
tracking people. She has a legal observer. What -- happens in situations like this is they've got people on the radio, on the standby. You see this man right here in the old (ph) t-shirt, legal observe and what they do is they get their names, they get their numbers and - what I'm told is they often times to have funds for the ready to bail these people out once they're taken into custody. That's sometimes how this works, some of these protesters who are used to doing this. Sir, would you like to say (inaudible) now, for taking at the custody.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel I'm being arrested unjustly. This is my city. These police don't live here, I do. You know, I think I'm being arrested for standing out here for justice, for Freddie Gray and for all the residents, the black community who were harassed daily by the police here.
CARROLL: They keep arresting you for violating the curfew.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The curfew is (beep) we're talking about (inaudible).
CARROLL: I want to excuse that language sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, you ask out at Baltimore, we are on that military occupation right now. You must out of Baltimore.
CARROLL: So, Don, you heard it there, one of those who were -- now being taken into custody. You can see that's happening, what they're doing is they're very slowly loading some of these people who have been arrested into the van right there.
LEMON: We've lost, we've lost contact with Jason Carroll, but Miguel is also out in the crowd. So let me -- let me just update viewers --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here, right here
LEMON: 17 after the hour --
LEMON: We're live for you in Baltimore, Maryland. I'm Don Lemon. I'm out with the -- our correspondent here, Miguel Marquez, and we are watching arrest. It is 17 minutes after a mandatory curfew has gone into effect into affect here for the fourth night. Miguel Marquez is on the scene and he is right in the middle of it. Miguel, what are you seeing?
MARQUEZ: Yes -- this is one of the persons who has arrested. Why are you doing this?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Protesting.
MARQUEZ: Why -- why is it so important to do this?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice and all -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Step back.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For all people.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Step back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Step back.
MARQUEZ: This is a very, very chaotic scene. Now is the police are starting to move down the street, because there's other individuals behind us who are now retreating (ph) of the street. We are trying to form a cordon now, around the people who are being arrested so that we can't speak to them and they have a heavy armored truck here that's now going after the individuals who were up the streets. Because if you look all the way down the street. You can see individuals there who, who took off once the police moved in here in city hall and here come the horses as well. Police clearly, not taking any -- not taking any grief from anybody tonight here in Baltimore. A little surprising that the night would end --
MARQUEZ: Why is that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Over here, over here, over here.
MARQUEZ: Why is that? This is --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Refuse to move down?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Excuse me, sir.
MARQUEZ: But why - why is that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because they ask you too, sir. Please comply.
MARQUEZ: Are we, are we under martial law? Or is this --
MARQUEZ: -- curfew.
MARQUEZ: Because the media has the right to work.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I understand here. I understand.
MARQUEZ: That's the one you actually --
LEMON: Miguel --
LEMON: Miguel --
MARQUEZ: I would prefer to be right here.
LEMON: It's not working.
MARQUEZ: Yes. OK. He prefers to go home. All right, we're moving.
LEMON: All right, Miguel.
MARQUEZ: So, they're letting us go through that.
LEMON: I understand.
MARQUEZ: Nobody gets go through. All right, all right, so we're going through. It is shocking that in a city like this that this would -- it would come to this. Most police officers have let us move fairly freely but tonight, clearly, they want us to stop. I don't know that it is going to serve their purposes, Don.
LEMON: Yeah. And I understand that you're very frustrated and you do have the right to work but at this moment, we need you on TV. We don't want you to get and --
LEMON: And you're quite right, we should be working, yeah, yeah. OK. So Miguel, stand by, I'm going to bring in -- get some more, some more --
MARQUEZ: Another, another arrestee, another arrestee coming through.
LEMON: Go ahead.
MARQUEZ: They just brought in another person that was arrested. So I've counted, one, two, three, four, five, six, or at 8, maybe 10 arrests tonight so far. It looks like probably more, given the number of the locations that they were moving through and from.
LEMON: It's actually surprising -- what is surprising Miguel, that they -- you know, that they arrested --
LEMON: Standby. Because I want to, I want to --
MARQUEZ: It is, it is --
[22:20:10] LEMON: Go ahead.
MARQUEZ: It's just a little shocking that they're pushing media back to the sidewalk as well. I mean, I think that the first amendment and the constitutions still apply in Baltimore, Maryland under a curfew. They've made that rule very, very clear when they put this into effect. NAD tonight, police are changing that rule, Don.
LEMON: Yeah. I want to find out what's different about tonight. I want to bring in Rob Weinhold and also Sunny Hostin. You guys have been here observing this with us since it started on Monday. What's different about tonight?
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, certainly it started out differently, Don. Because after I think the state's attorney's decision to charge everyone, there was this celebratory mood that we experienced all day. A lot of -- a lot more people I think here on the plaza in city hall but, also a lot more people after 10:00 p.m. As you've noticed, after 10 o'clock, it's really been very sparse. There have been very few people here. Here they were so many people and I think we saw the police a little more aggressive than we've seen them before. This is the first time that I saw a riot police with batons that were exposed. I also saw a lot of those plastic ties (ph) and many, many more and they moved rather aggressively. This is the first night that I've seen that.
LEMON: And we're seeing Mounties (ph), right? We are seeing police on horseback ride (ph) for the first night -- I haven't seen a lot of it, they have been out there, I had not seen them.
ROB WEINHOLD, CRISIS & PUBLIC SAFETY EXPERT, FALLSTON GROUP: yeah, I got to tell you. I'm not surprise by this at all. I felt like tonight, Friday night, with the decision today. This going to be many, many more people on the street, we've seen that all afternoon. But the curfew isn't effect. It's not a surprise to anyone 10:00 p.m. is the curfew, folks were warned, they were told by the helicopter, told by police, move back, move on, please go home. And so now, if you don't comply, you are going to be arrested. LEMON: Yeah.
WEINHOLD: And so this doesn't surprise me at all.
HOSTIN: And, and I think --
LEMON: Brian Todd, I know that you are out in the crowd. Brian, what do you have for us?
TODD: Don, they just moved members of the media behind it. According to police officers, they got mounted police officers over here. Now - not only we been pushed back here, we can't really see other people being processed -- arrestees being processed on the other side of that horse. I can tell you got along this line and tell you that -- I think someone mentioned a moment ago that the tactics they were much more aggressive. It clearly much more aggressive than we saw at the intersection of Pennsylvania Avenue and North Avenue last night, with the police was mingling in the crowds, even after curfew, asking them to get off the street, and they got them the local leaders to come in and talk people off the street.
Which they did, which happen peacefully, this is a much more aggressive tactic, than the police used last night. We are trying to find out why they decided to do this. As they come in with the loud speaker again announcing the curfew, it was clearly, a seeing developing were some of the protesters - we are going to defy that and at least sit there and the police were having none of it. They move in very quickly, very aggressively. Again, showing a much more aggressive and agitated tactic than they did last night, Don.
LEMON: Miguel Marquez, I know that you are up there in the crowd. Miguel, they were moving you back --
LEMON: What's your situation now?
MARQUEZ: Well, we've been able to step a few feet off the sidewalk here. Where you can see police have set up a cordon around it, the police van where they are pulling -- putting most of the people they have arrested in. So they created a little space in here and they are arresting the people. If you can step up there, Eddie, you can see one person, I believe her name is Dawn, she's back there, she's saying, she -- she engaged in this civil disobedience because, it was - it was worth it and she believed that -- she wanted justice for African- Americans. Several people had gone to this van, here they've created a little space for them, surrounding it with both horse -- officers on horses and riot police. You can see in their hands, they're holding the pepper spray, right down here, Eddie, right -- right in there in his hands, thank you very much. And they are prepared to deploy it and clearly, trying to keep the media out of the area that they want to operate in, despite this being a public space, Don.
LEMON: Yeah. And Miguel, you know, you -- I would say rightly so you got a little feisty there and so you know what these protesters are dealing with because, in some instances, because you're dealing with it as well. It's a curfew, but not a curfew for you though, because you are with the media, but a curfew for them and --
LEMON: So, and talk to me about that.
[22:24:39] MARQUEZ: Well, and not a curfew for people who are working as well, according to the city. But when I guess when it comes to city hall, there are different rules that there applied and they put that into effect. I mean this is not a city that is under Martial Law, this is a curfew. But it doesn't mean that the constitutional rights go away, this does not mean that the military is in control, it does not mean that this is now a police state. It means that there is curfew, and if you are not working, you don't have an emergency, you should be home. But if it's a public sidewalk that one ones to be on and you are working, does the working member of the media, that one should be. It's barely basic. It's particularly ironic that it's happening here at the base of city hall.
LEMON: Yeah. I want to get to - standby, Miguel. I want to get to Ryan Young also out in the crowd. Where are you, Ryan? What do you see? RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm right here, actually. We are right
in front of that CVS and they decided to clear the area here. Look back, you can see the officers standing in the middle of the street. Look back this way, you can see all the officers who are standing out there in the middle of the street. A lot of people who had left, they are some media that who have left here as well. But just like Miguel was talking about, there is a difference with how they handling the media. They have put us in a pin area to make sure that we are out of their way. Some people - the media, decide to, should behind this thing and others have decided to stay in the street. But you can see the officers who are now spreading out into the street and it's happening right now, live --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So what's up? What's up? What's up?
YOUNG: So, you know, this is -- as you can see, now some of the folks who were pushing this direction, but most of the people who are part of the community have already left. So you can see the officers filling in here now, Don. We are in the pen area that the officers have asked to stay in, for this evening.
LEMON: Yeah. I want to keep with these pictures, but I want to bring in David Klinger, law enforcement expert and also Mark O'Mara of course, a legal expert here. First to you, Mark, legally, you know, Miguel is right that it's working press, but what are the rights of the protesters? They're out past the curfew. What happens now?
MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I mean the curfew is the law of the night. It hasn't been withdrawn, even though I think it should have been, so they have to comply with it or they are subject to arrest. This type of civil disobedience is sort of understandable because, the concerns about the curfew were -- that there would be violence or some kind of overreaction to the frustrations the community felt over charges not being filed. That's over now and it seems to be more celebratory but, until it's undone, the curfew stands, are subject to arrest or at least detention.
Certainly, much different for the media, I can understand Miguel's frustration, because the media is supposed to have unfettered access to report on exactly what the cops are doing. You know, let's not forget that the officers are probably feeling a bit frustrated that six of their own were just charged with various very severe crimes. So I would imagine without indicting the law enforcement generally that, they are a bit frustrated right now with anyone, including the protesters who are standing in the way of them enforcing the curfew.
LEMON: All right. David, you know, on other nights, they gave the protesters a little bit more leeway, at least a little bit more time to get their acts together and to -- go, you know inside or go wherever they're going to go, to get off the streets. This seemed to bit different, because it happened just a couple minutes after the hour, after the curfew.
DAVID KLINGER, FORMER POLICE OFFICER: I think you're absolutely correct that it's different. And don't know exactly why I would disagree with Mark's hypothesis that perhaps, the officers are frustrated, and therefore, they're behaving differently. This is a command decision that was made with - made by somebody, well above those line officers to go ahead and make (inaudible) a very short of period of time. There are two things we need to understand. Number one is Mark pointed out, the law has been stated. It was very clear. So anybody who wants to claim that we didn't know about, that's wrong. The second thing is, there's all sorts of behind the scenes intelligence that's been develop about who might be in the crowd and what might be going on and we are not (inaudible) of that. So maybe --
LEMON: I think David --
KLINGER: That there are some --
LEMON: David, give me a second here. I hate to cut in on you, but I just need to tell you that the police are on the move and it's the location where CNN's Ryan Young is right now. I'm sorry for cutting off David. I promise I'll get back to you. Ryan, if you were out there, can you let us know what's happening?
YOUNG: OK. Well, they have advanced positions, so now they have come right up to this pen. The officers have decided to tell everybody to move back. There were some media members who decided not to move out of the streets. The officers have made it clear over the last two hours, to make sure that they -- they were going to - tell everyone to move and now, they have done that.
So you can see, what the situations is, the officers have come up to us, they put their shields up, they have cleared the intersection and now they standing in front of us. Most of the night we have seen celebrations, people were jumping up and down in the middle of the street. A lot of media members walking in the streets as well. They have told everyone to clear and stand inside this pen, and that's what they went through right now. And you can see the line right in front of us, so these officers who decided to tell us -- and you can hear the announcement -- by the helicopter. Listen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Listen, all media. If you are not in the media team and you are subject to an arrest. So if you're not in the media team (inaudible).
[22:30:03] YOUNG: So, one of the things they want to make clear, Don, is there are many people here who are saying that they were media members and they were not media members and they want to make sure that they -- people who are in this pen work credential media people and you can see the line they have formed to make sure that we no longer break that curfew.
LEMON: OK. Stand by, Rob -- stand by, Ron. Go ahead, Rob.
ROB WEINHOLD, FORMER BALTIMORE POLICE OFFICER: UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want to say the normal operating procedures for police department is to have the media stage in area so the media can go there and not interfere with police operation.
In this day and age, there are lot of folks with cameras may pretend that they are members of the media but they're not credentially. So, it's really important for the members of the media to go to the staging area so they don't interfere with police operations and then the curfew can be certainly enacted in a very similar manner.
LEMON: David Klinger, I cut you off a moment ago. David, before you -- before you weigh in, let's just listen to this for a little bit.
DAVID KLINGER, PROFESSOR OF CRIMINOLOGY UNIVERSITY OF MISSOURI-ST. LOUIS: Sure.
LEMON: So, they were saying a moment ago on the bull horn to go home if you weren't a member of the media. David, I cut you off midsentence a moment ago. Go ahead.
KLINGER: I'm saying is that the decisions have been made at far higher level than the line officers who are out there in terms of the timing of the movement. And the second point was that there's an awful lot of information we're not privy to in terms of who might be involved. And the gentleman who is speaking to me before me said that there are some people who are acting like they're members of the media.
We don't know what type of outside agitators or in the crowd. We don't what the intel is that Baltimore and maybe Maryland State Police maybe even federal authorities have about what might be going on. And so, there may be some of that that's playing out to lead to this more a -- as some of your people have said aggressive posture. Now, I haven't seen any of the video so I don't know how aggressively they were moving, but at least in terms of moving more rapidly.
LEMON: Yes. They did move in fast. And again, the aggressive part of the aggression I'm not sure, but they did move in fast. Let's see. Which one of my guys is out there? Which should I go to? Is it Miguel? Are you out in the crowd -- let's go to Brian Todd. Brian, what do you have for us?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Don, more arrestees were just processed. Actually, our photojournalist, Tom Garrick, can get a shot through here. There's one being processed here and they're being put into that police van over there on the back off from that shot a little bit here.
LEMON: We can see it.
TODD: As you can see it --
TODD: -- all these people being process and taken out of the square area. There you -- I'm just being able to frame it on it now. I just asked one of the police commanders here why they moved in so aggressively. I said, "Can you us anything about that?" And he said, "No," and he walk away.
But one thing I can tell you, Don, is that one of the worst scene we've seen here in the last half hour since this curfew ended was after they had pushed some of the protesters out of the square -- after they had pushed us out of the square, chanting, move back, move back. We all moved down to the square. We moved up onto the sidewalk behind where you're looking to near a television satellite truck. At that point, an older officer wearing a white shirt, no helmet, no nothing, just came pushing through the line of journalists and some of the protesters and just grabbed one of the protesters and try to pull him down.
That started a huge melee. I think we caught some of that on camera. It was frenetic. People were getting pushed, shoved, beat, and stomped on. And it was just a real mess for several minutes. After that, I saw one of the security contractors who was hired by one of the TV outlets being helped off by two of his colleagues because he had stampeded on he said. He had an injured leg. So this got out of hand very quickly. This melee in front of the satellite truck was really out of control. And you know, I think -- I think we could say that it didn't necessarily need to get that way because last night, as we have been observing, the tactics by the police were much more subtle.
They would mingle in the crowd; they would look for protest leaders to try to talk some of the protestors out of that area of Pennsylvania Avenue and North Avenue. They did no such thing tonight. They simply moved in with -- the officers that you're seeing in from of me with their shields and their helmets and with mounted police officers and others enacted very aggressively, Don.
LEMON: OK. Stand by, Brian Todd. Miguel Marquez, what do you have?
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I'm here pretty much in the same area where Brian as we've seen several people who have been processed now at the count of five or six. You are a friend of one of them, what's your name?
TIM YOUNG, BALTIMORE CIVILIAN: Hi, my name is Tim Young.
MARQUEZ: And who is your friend and how are you feeling right now?
T. YOUNG: I'm feeling terrified to watch the police just (inaudible). I have a friend in there, Mike. He is like black and blue all across his face. Other friend I think got beat up and I couldn't sleep for a while I thought he was missing.
MARQUEZ: This was an active civil disobedience that you planned?
[22:35:01] T. YOUNG: We have every right to be out here. There shouldn't be a curfew. It's not really even -- it wasn't even like a planned civil disobedience. I don't even know. It's just like normal like why shouldn't we be out of here.
MARQUEZ: You thought because of the atmosphere today that they wouldn't make arrest and they wouldn't abide by the curfew tonight?
T. YOUNG: No. we just don't thing there should ever be a curfew. The National Guard needs to leave. The police state is ridiculous. You know, we just --
LEMON: But there is a curfew, Miguel.
MARQUEZ: And what did you tell your friend? You were just yelling at him.
T. YOUNG: I was confirming that he was OK because I was really scared that they'd like beat him up really bad.
MARQUEZ: All right. Thank you very much. And you can see that others here, Don, are being processed. Are you all right?
T. YOUNG: They -- I saw them walk with someone, an arrestee, and they took him over there and they were like, "Where's -- they asked -- the police officer asked the National Guard, "Where can I go so I can take this prisoner so he won't be in front of the media?" And he walked off with him that way and he's just nowhere to be found.
MARQUEZ: How frustrating is it to live in a city under curfew with this sort of --
T. YOUNG: It's beyond frustrating and it's heartbreaking and no one deserves to be beat up. This is our city. This is our everyday lives. Like there's no need for a curfew and there's no need to, you know, turn our jails into concentration camps and make them stay there for days and they end up using bread as pillows. It's like -- it's so -- it's so sad.
MARQUEZ: Clearly, we saw --
LEMON: Yes. So Miguel --
MARQUEZ: -- we started the last couple of weeks with high emotion and we're ending it with high emotion. More arrests there, Don. Yes?
LEMON: Yes. So, stand by. We'll keep your pictures up, Miguel, but I want to talk to our legal experts because, you know, I understand. I want to sympathize with the protesters, but it is 10 o'clock.
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: And I don't sympathize with the protesters.
LEMON: And I don't see the problem. If you're out and you're defying the law, the rule, then you're going to get arrested. Now -- and there's a difference between being taken into custody and being beaten up.
HOSTIN: Well, of course, but we're hearing from this protester is there should not be a curfew. Well, you don't get to decide what the law is.
LEMON: This is a curfew, right.
HOSTIN: You know that the law of the night is that there is a 10 o'clock curfew. Everyone had -- do know this. In fact, remember, when the mayor's office decided to implement the curfew, there was a criticism of the mayor's office because they wanted to know why it wasn't in place that day.
LEMON: Why there weren't more precautions taken and day ended up like they did on Monday night, right?
HOSTIN: Well, no. No. No the criticism was it shouldn't be in 24 hours. The curfew should be right now.
LEMON: Right now. Right.
HOSTIN: But the response was that people needed 24 hours notice so they could comply with the law of the night. Well, everyone not only has 24 hours notice. They've had a week of notice --
HOSTIN: And the suggestion somehow that the curfew shouldn't exist. I think --
LEMON: Or shouldn't apply to them.
HOSTIN: Shouldn't apply. This is ludicrous. We all know that while there was a celebratory mood today there have been other days when their celebratory moods, you know, turns into a unrest like when the Ravens won, like when you have a sports team that wins. Well, those revelers sometimes certainly turn into criminals because they thought --
LEMON: When there's a pumpkin fest or anything -- right.
HOSTIN: When there's a pumpkin test. They start looting. They start breaking things. They start destroying property. So there's a very good reason to have a curfew tonight.
WEINHOLD: You know, the curfew, no curfew discussion has been going on all week. Folks have looked at it through the civil obedience lens, the economic lens. Businesses I know are suffering because of it. I don't think everyone understands. I'll say it again. The first order of leadership is providing a safe place to live, work, and raise a family. Listen, we're not in a neighborhood here. We're in front of the City Hall.
HOSTIN: That's right.
WEINHOLD: These folks know that there is a 10.00 p.m. curfew. I do not sympathize at all. They're arrested, the ones who didn't obey. They need to be arrested. There's a curfew. It must be enforced.
LEMON: Yes. David? David Klinger?
KLINGER: Moaning and complaining, what a pathetic -- yes? I'm saying the one individual was complaining about her friend that was beaten black and blue bruises, those just don't arise that quickly. That person was telling a lie and that person should be ashamed of herself. As your other guest said, the law is clear on this. There has been many days notice. If you don't want to be arrested, then go home. If you want to be arrested, then be arrested peaceably, which is the tradition in this country of civil disobedience. LEMON: Mark O'Mara.
MIKE O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think David said it all. I defer to him for law enforcement procedures. Right. This was an intentional act by a certain number of the protesters who said, "We know there's a curfew in place. We are celebrating. And we're going to use this as an opportunity not to comply with the curfew that we no longer agree with or never did." And again, the police have to do what they have to do. I think they have given deference in days gone by. I agree with David. I defer to him that there was a command decision made about the curfew's enforcement tonight but it has to be enforced. And those who will get arrested will probably be released tonight but they cannot flaunt the law.
[22:40:05]: Yes. Bread as pillows. Anyways. Let's get to see what Brian is at. Brian, go ahead.
TODD: Yes, Don. I'm here with two of the protesters who were moved out of that line and pushed from the plaza. And Ted and Yusini (ph) -- Ted (ph), tell us what happened and you believe the tactics were too aggressive. Tell us what happened.
TED, BALTIMORE CIVILIAN: And so we were all sitting over there in the square and the police came around and they just started beating people and zip tying them. No one was being violent and the cops just brutally came in.
TODD: we saw some of the people from the plaza being dragged towards the side walk and towards that satellite truck. Were you seeing people who were -- the police were beating people by that satellite truck when that melee was going on over there?
TED: They were beating people right here.
TODD: Right. That's near the satellite truck.
TODD: Yusini (ph), what did you -- what was your explanation.
YUSINI, BALTIMORE CIVILIAN: Yes. I saw the same thing. I mean it was 10 o'clock. They came in. They dispersed the entire crowd and then --
TODD: I'll present to both of you what our legal experts and law enforcement experts are saying that it was clear that there was a curfew at 10 o'clock. They announced it on the loud speaker by the helicopter, "It's the curfew. Move out." Again, when you know that those are the rules, why not move out?
TED: Well, I don't know if you're familiar with civil disobedience. It's a tactic that's used. It's a nonviolent direct action tactic used. So people were exercising their rights because they feel that they have been silenced here in Baltimore, as you know, Freddie Gray and many others have been victim to police brutality. And you know, violating a curfew does not demand getting beat with clubs. This is what happened to my father in South Africa during apartheid. TODD: Yusini, does this changed your outlook about (inaudible)?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wouldn't you come out again and protest?
YUSINI: Why are we more worried about us breaking a curfew at 10 o'clock and like, if -- you know, that's should be the narrative, right? Why is it that we're justifying us getting beaten whereas police are going out and ruling with impunity and we're not doing anything about it?
TODD: Did any of you get beaten by a police officer tonight?
TED: No. Because, thankfully, we made it out of the way in time. But if I was 10 feet closer to the square I would have been one of the people getting beat too.
TODD: You both were right near that fracas over there that really got out of control? You were in the middle over here. How -- just describe how --
LEMON: Brian? Brian?
TODD: How scary it was at the time that they came in and moved here?
YUSINI: Yes. They come in rapping on their riot shield. It's like a war drum and they're trying to build everyone up.
TODD: All right. Don, I'm sorry. You needed to get to me?
LEMON: I wanted to you to ask them a couple of questions. So they're saying that police were beating them. But we -- our cameras, we didn't see police beating anyone. We saw them taking people into custody. There is a difference between being taken into custody and being beaten. Are they sure that they were beaten because we didn't see that in our cameras? It may very well happen. I didn't see it. Did you guys see anyone being beating?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn't see anything at all.
LEMON: Go ahead, Brian.
TODD: Don is asking -- I'm sorry. Don is asking -- our anchor is asking that, you know, he's saying that, you know, our cameras didn't capture anyone being beaten by the police. They were being taken. They were being apprehended. Are you sure they were being beaten by the police?
TED: Yes. I saw people being beaten with the clubs like this.
TODD: All right. Well, we'll ask the police about this. Yusini, did you see that as well?
YUSINI: I mean are the police going to tell you --
TED: Yes. Will they tell you if they beat people?
YUSINI: Are they going to tell us what they did to Freddie Gray?
TODD: Well, we'll challenge them. Well, they may not, but we'll challenge them, of course, if indeed that happen.
YUSINI: Why you believe -- why is there more outrage at a bunch of people sitting outside, right -- in the middle of the square, a public space, and we're not outraged by this? Look at this people. They're ready to explicit (ph) go to war.
TODD: We understand your frustration. We're getting your perspective.
YUSINI: Didn't you see the soldiers over there?
TODD: Yes. We see that.
TED: And did you see their armored vehicle?
TODD: We saw all of that, and we thank you guys.
YUSINI: If this is any other crime --
LEMON: Brian, thank you very much. I want to get to the experts here. OK. There -- so the entire week we had been, you know, talking -- at the beginning of the week it was -- we're talking about the rioting and the looting and the burning. And then it's has gotten to the point where the conversation got back to what it should be and that was the investigation with what happened with Freddie Gray. The prosecutor comes out today. The conversation is exactly where it should be and then the people who wanted it to get here have now defied the curfew and the conversation -- it had taken the conversation to where it should not be again and that's on the violence.
HOSTIN: Well, I still understand this notion that protesting is still necessary because the larger --
LEMON: It is necessary but there is a curfew.
HOSTIN: Right. But the larger issue, let's face it, is not one of -- you know, of course, it's about justice for Freddie Gray, but it's also police brutality and it's also about excessive force and it's also about police reform. And so I understand why people were out protesting today but again --
HOSTIN: -- there is a curfew. It's 10 o'clock. It's to maintain the peace. You know, the city has decided that the curfew is still necessary. And I think it still is necessary.
LEMON: And Sunny, today, we were out here all day and people were protesting. We were like, great, people were protesting. They were happy or what have you. You know, from 5.00 a.m. to 10.00 p.m. at night you can protest as much as you want.
[22:45:12] LEMON: But in all honesty and all fairness to the police officers -- and I don't know about being beaten, we're certainly not condoning that -- but in all honesty and all fairness, if there is a curfew and they have been told by the powers including the mayor and the police commissioner to enforce the law, they have to --
HOSTIN: You don't get to decide what the law is and you don't get to decide not to follow law because you don't like them.
WEINHOLD: Yes. I agree. I don't want to be redundant. If you don't like where a stop sign is, it doesn't give you the right to go through it. The bottom line is this, there's plenty of emotion, a lot of emotion, and rightly so, with a very, very critical issue. But what I see here is almost a milestone moment with this whole Freddie Gray case and that decision was made today to run the course of due process and charge the officers. Well, now, there's another milestone point that folks have an opportunity to come out and be heard and I think what you saw here at the City Hall tonight were folks who were trying to make a point and frankly use this as a platform to advance the agenda.
LEMON: Yes. It would be different -- it would be very different have we not seen what we saw on Monday.
WEINHOLD: I agree.
LEMON: And I think the mayor and the city leaders are walking a tight rope because if they don't enforce the law and something happened, they will be criticized again and they will be taken through the ringer. And so, now they're enforcing the law and there is a -- listen, we know businesses are losing money, but we had a lot of unrest here and no one wants to see that happen again.
We're going to continue on with what's happening here in Baltimore, Maryland. Forty-five minutes here in this curfew and we've seen a lot of arrest here. We've seen people taken into custody. We've had seen people, of course, wanting to defy the curfew and their very upset about it. They're saying that there should be -- there should not be any curfew. What do you think at home? You can reach out to us in social media and let us know.
We're back in a moment with our breaking news right here on CNN.
[22:50:22] Breaking news tonight. I'm here in Baltimore, Maryland where that mandatory, city-wide curfew is in effect. Now, it has been in effect for about 50 minutes. Arrests have been made. Back with me, Mark O'Mara, David Klinger, Rob Weinhold, Sunny Hostin. Also with me, Tom Verni, a former New York City police detective, and Charles Curlett, a criminal defense attorney. We call Charles, Chad. Thank you to Chad and to Tom for joining the conversation.
If you look on the streets, you can see mounted police officers out on the streets this evening. They moved in very quickly after 10 o'clock. We saw it all unfold live here on CNN. Something very interesting. We haven't witnessed, I don't think, that sort of drama since the unrest in Ferguson back in the summer of last year. The police officers are still out in their shields. There are still people out who are defying the curfews. Our correspondents are out in the field as well. Miguel Marquez is out there. Ryan Young is out there, Brian Todd as well, and we'll be checking in with them just a little bit later on.
But I want to get to my panelists now because, Chad, hopefully you can hear me here -- it's kind of loud in here. But I'm sorry, you know, there is civil disobedience. I understand. But today, the prosecutor announced charges against all of the officers. There is a celebratory feeling. But there is a curfew at 10 o'clock in Baltimore, Maryland and everyone from the president to the mayor on down to most of the citizens have said, you need to pay attention and obey this curfew.
CHARLES CURLETT, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the protesters should certainly obey the curfew if they don't want to be arrested. The mayor has the right to impose a curfew. The city solicitor has opined on the legal authority for that. It's beyond question. It's a matter of public safety.
CURLETT: At this point, the tone has changed but -- yes, there was plenty of warning, the National Guard. Helicopter was flying over announcing what would happen if people didn't listen and they chose to stay. I think they wanted to be arrested.
LEMON: So if they're out there that they were here to make a point that they wanted to be arrested.
CURLETT: Tom Verni, I want to get to you because we noticed a bit of a difference this evening. Maybe they were expecting that the crowd if they were celebratory and they felt that, you know, in a certain way, that we have gotten what we wanted. Maybe they would be embolden a little bit. The tactics certainly seem to have changed. There's a bit more presence tonight, at least a show of force. We haven't seen this since the first night of unrest. What's going on here?
TOM VERNI, FORMER NEW YORK CITY POLICE DETECTIVE: You know, I think they want to be ready for anything just in case something pops off. They want to have enough personnel there to be able to contain it. And as you mentioned before, there is still an active curfew in place. So, yes, people need to respect that. Just because the prosecutor came out today and levied charges against these officers, that doesn't, you know, make everything OK and everything is not going to go away. We still have a long way to go, and certainly, by the way of indictment and a trial.
So, you know, I think a lot of people were elated to hear that news and so things kind of did calm down and deescalate themselves because of that news, but we're still in a situation where it's a highly charged police incident with the prisoner, with someone who was arrested. And you know, there's still going to be a lot of people that's still angry about that and very likely could defy the curfew which some people obviously are. So the police are there just to remind them, you know, and they'll do so in the friendliest way possible if they can that there is still a curfew in effect until there isn't and they should respect that hopefully they'll remain calm and quiet throughout the night.
LEMON: But you're a law enforcement agent and you did training for, you're a detective for New York City -- New York City Police Department. Take us behind the scenes here. What is -- what's the strategy here? What's going on? What's happened before curfew when they saw people out? Was there a strategy that changed and that what are they -- what are they thinking now? What's going on?
VERNI: Well, now, I think they're just kind of still on guard. After what happened the other night -- we certainly don't want to repeat what happened the other night. You see, riot situations are very, very -- not only unpredictable but very scary and very tense, not only for the people who are kind of caught in the middle of it, but also for the law enforcement people who were there trying to get a handle on it. And the people are attacking the police and generally they're not going to hesitate to attack someone who is not the police.
So you don't want things to spiral out of control and you lose complete control of the city, especially a city like Baltimore. So yes, they're going to be on guard. They're going to be standing by. They're going to just kind of take a wait and see attitude. I mean listen, if no one is getting out of control then there's no reason to get all amped up and charge him. If people start to disperse in an orderly manner and are non-violent then the cops are going to be fine with that and they're just going to kind of chill out, you know, and --
[22:55:18] LEMON: Until they're told to do otherwise.
LEMON: Yes. But that's not what we saw. I mean they were just standing in the park. I didn't see anyone being violent. They were just of standing their ground or sitting their ground for the most part. So, I want to go to Chad and we were talking about the prosecutor. Chad, as an attorney, you don't think the facts support the prosecutor's charges in this case. Explain that to us.
CURLETT: All we know, factually at this point is what is contained in the statement of probable cause which was filed with the charging documents today. And if that statement of probably cause that the state prosecutor read in making her announcements.
One thing is that two of the officers have only been charged with misdemeanors and the remaining officers have been charged with felonies and the lead charge charging murder, homicide with murder by depraved (ph) heart is a very standard which requires one to consciously disregard a known risk of death. And the facts in this case show that Mr. Gray was in distress and the underlying allegation to support the charges simply that the police ignored his need for medical attention. But the question that's going to have to come out from other evidence is not in the statement of probably cause. It's whether or not his condition was so obvious that there was a serious risk of death that they ignored that.
LEMON: And you think that will be a high bar to prove?
CURLETT: It's a very high bar to prove.
LEMON: All right. Standby, everyone. We're continuing our breaking news coverage live from Baltimore, Maryland where there has been defiance of this curfew this evening and there have been arrest. We'll right back in a moment.
[22:59:48] LEMON: Yes, it is breaking news everyone. I'm Don Lemon. It's 11.00 p.m. in Baltimore, Maryland and you're looking at live pictures right now. It's our breaking news coverage. Police moved in swiftly tonight as the mandatory curfew went into effect just one hour ago. Moments after it took effect, they moved in. They arrested protesters right here at City Hall Park where we are now, those protesters who refused to leave who were breaking the curfew.