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Autopsy Results to be Released; Interview with Bill Henry; More Protests, Marches in Other U.S. Cities Planned for Today; Cincinnati Protests Police Brutality. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired May 1, 2015 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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[09:00:46]

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DEP. KEVIN DAVIS, DEPUTY BALTIMORE POLICE COMMISSIONER: The second stop has been revealed to us during the course of our investigation and was previously unknown to us.

ANTHONY BATTS, COMMISSIONER, BALTIMORE PD: Getting to the right answer is more important than a speech.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR, NEW DAY: The police are sitting here and watching this, so it's about a balance.

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ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield live at Baltimore city hall. Carol Costello is off this morning. Thank you so much for joining us. A very busy day to get to.

Here in Baltimore the investigation into the death of Freddie Gray grows more perplexing and potentially more explosive as well. At anytime the official autopsy results could be handed over to state prosecutors, and it is likely to detail that terrible and fatal spinal injury that he may have suffered in the police van or in police custody of some sort. And there is a report that his catastrophic wound matches up with a bolt that is inside that police van that transported him to jail.

CNN's Washington affiliate WJLA cites multiple law enforcement sources on that report, and Baltimore police fuel more public anger and suspicion as well with a new development announced that police van that made an additional stop, the van carrying Freddie Gray made an additional stop that had not been revealed to them at first. And it only came to light after a citizen handed over surveillance video of the mystery stop. That surveillance video coming from the corner where it happened.

CNN justice reporter, Evan Perez, is following the investigation, and he joins me now live. So, Evan, let's talk first about that report, that WJLA report,

suggesting that the medical examiner's information suggests that the injury to Freddie Gray, at least one of them, matches up with a bolt that was found inside that transport van.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Ashleigh. We still don't know exactly how that injury was sustained, but according to this report, the medical examiner has told police that they believe the fatal injury was sustained in that van, perhaps matching the injury at the top of his head matching the bolt that is in the back of this van. Again, this doesn't explain whether or not this was sustained during the -- perhaps a rough ride or whether it was something that he inflicted as he was thrashing about.

We do know, as you mentioned, that the autopsy report is going to be going to state attorney's office as soon as today. They're still wrapping up a few details and that could happen today or perhaps in the next couple of days.

Today the Justice Department is announcing that they're going to fund $20 million for body cameras for police officers around the country, and that's an important move, Ashleigh, because, you know, one of the things that's missing in this case is a complete picture of exactly what happened to Freddie Gray.

We're standing actually in West Baltimore in the corner of Fremont and Mosher Street, and right behind me is a grocery store that captured with its surveillance camera the final stop, the stop that we now know that police didn't include in their earlier timeline. I made a mistake and instead it's the second stop actually that was made as they were taking Freddie Gray to jail. We still don't know what happened in that stop. This surveillance camera was turned over to the police only a few days ago and then the store was looted subsequently to that during the riot, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: All right. Well, all part of a big puzzle that has yet to be solved and certainly not publicly, that's for sure.

Evan Perez, joining us live in Baltimore.

I want to tell you something that happened in Baltimore. If you were watching the news last night you probably saw that most of the protests were quite peaceful at least in this city, anyway, and then there was this odd confrontation where a man was menacing the police line, and then this happened. Take a look.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. OK. Whoa, whoa, whoa.

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BANFIELD: Didn't take long before he was enveloped into that police line. He was also arrested as well. You could hear the police screaming, move back, move back, but he did not, and that was the result. But effectively most of these protests, again, peaceful in Baltimore and the police presence clear and present.

Now to the CVS pharmacy you have seen so many images of, it was burned and it was looted. It was the scene and the center of so much of that protesting and those looting and riots on Monday night. And now something so strange, four or five days later, police have found a body that was outside of the CVS in some kind of a vehicle. At this point it is not known if that is at all connected to what happened on those streets on Monday or the subsequent days with regard to the rioting.

I want to talk now more with Baltimore City Councilman Bill Henry who joins me live on this location.

You know, I'm sure you're used to coming to this location without the presence of police and National Guard, and these incredible vehicles that are behind us as well. I saw all of these Humvees, the National Guard's Humvees. They've got their light medium tactical units back here. This is your office, so to speak. But now this is your reality.

And I want to talk to you about this report from WJLA, the fact that it appears, the medical examiner's document show that Freddie Gray's injuries, at least one of them anyway, matches up with a bolt inside the police van. How are you digesting that this morning?

BILL HENRY, BALTIMORE CITY COUNCILMAN: Ashleigh, first of all, thank you for bringing me here.

BANFIELD: Thanks for coming.

HENRY: I think the difficulty is going to be trying to explain to the people of Baltimore that in a court of law there is going to be a huge gap between knowing how he died and proving that somebody was responsible for that.

BANFIELD: Yes.

HENRY: And that's going to be the difficult part.

BANFIELD: It is not like television. "CSI" can solve crimes and put people away in an hour, and in reality it takes months and years and, Councilman, sometimes it doesn't happen. There's the huge mountain to possibly try to summit how do you get that message to the people who are so angry and so disenfranchised there may not be six murder arrests in this case?

HENRY: Well, I'm going to say something I hope that's not too provocative. A lot of the uprisings that we've seen over the last few days have been because of years of that not happening. I mean, Freddie Gray is just the latest example in Baltimore of a death that left behind questions that were never answered.

And in each of those cases, a segment of the community went away from that without the closure that they needed and with the real deep down belief that somebody did something wrong and wasn't punished for it. And over the years, that grows -- that permeates the community, and you get to the point where, you know, you have things like Monday night where people just -- they're mad as hell and are not going to take it anymore.

BANFIELD: So you're right. You have a massive job ahead of you and it is a year's long job, but then you also have a weekend. You've got tonight. You have the Freddie Gray symptom that hasn't been solved and it is a massive problem. It may be a small symptom of a massive problem but the Freddie Gray issue in these streets and these people, they need to be solved. There are people who are terrified of losing their businesses, of being looted, of being hurt, injured or worse. And how do you get to that problem immediately?

HENRY: Well, I've got a great tool in the tool kit for that, and that is Baltimore City and its community members, most of them don't want this city to fall apart. Tuesday, in the wake of the riots and the smash and grabs on Monday night, community members up in my district, they came together to do a peace walk along our major commercial corridor because they had been told by police that there were areas that were being targeted for more rioting during that day.

BANFIELD: Do you think they can do this job, though?

HENRY: They --

BANFIELD: You think that will stave off a repeat of Monday night?

HENRY: I think that there is no way that the police alone, even with the National Guard and, you know, extra troops from how many other subdivisions and jurisdictions, we're not going to police our way out of where we are. We need to have the community involved and the community needs to know that we are going to be looking for long-term solutions for this.

It was really nice to hear that the Justice Department is going to give money for body cameras. That's great. It was really nice to hear Governor Hogan talk about the fact that he's going to sign a bill that's going to increase the amount of suits that people can place when they have these brutality cases.

[09:10:15] But before Freddie Gray, the big story in Baltimore was, would Governor Hogan restore $11.5 million worth of funding to the schools.

BANFIELD: Yes.

HENRY: And he sent us armed troops, but we still have not gotten money --

BANFIELD: You're going to have to work it out.

(CROSSTALK)

HENRY: Yes. BANFIELD: Because I have driven through your communities, and it is

shameful what I've seen. Houses without roofs, buildings that are falling down. Every second, and not every second, sometimes every single building boarded up with windows that are smashed or, you know, boards --

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HENRY: Because many of our --

BANFIELD: It is a disaster out there.

HENRY: Many of our officials have pointed out that there are neighborhoods in the city that did not recover fully from the '68 riots.

BANFIELD: They need to. They are decaying and they're rotting and they are festering.

HENRY: They need to. And that would require a readjustment of how we spend our resources.

BANFIELD: So get in there and start yelling.

(LAUGHTER)

BANFIELD: I'm telling you, because you know what, if you don't spend the money there, you're going to spend it here. You're going to spend it on what we're dealing with today.

HENRY: And this is -- and this is the thing, for 25 years, for 25 years, the people of Baltimore.

BANFIELD: Yes.

HENRY: And I'm not saying that it's just the elected officials. Our officials respond to what people say. People have been saying --

BANFIELD: Speaking of that --

HENRY: People have been saying that we need more police when the truth is we need more investment at the front end in jobs.

BANFIELD: Yes.

HENRY: Homes, kids, after-school programs, youth development. If we pay at the front end to give our kids meaningful things to do, then we won't have to pay on the back end to arrest them.

BANFIELD: Bill Henry, good luck with that. It's the argument that needs to be made, it' the argument that needs to be won, but you've got a bigger problem on your hands today, tomorrow and in the coming, you know, weeks just solving this, and I wish you the best of luck because this is tragic for everyone to witness.

HENRY: Thank you for having me on. BANFIELD: Thank you for being on. I hope you come on again.

HENRY: OK.

BANFIELD: And he's got to go to work.

HENRY: That's right.

BANFIELD: City hall, right there. He's got to go see the National Guard to do it, though.

There's another thing I wanted to tell you about. I mentioned at the top of the program that the protests were pretty quiet in terms of just not a lot of violence and arrests, but they were not just in Baltimore. They've been all over the place. You probably saw Philly last night, you probably Cincinnati on the news last night, things getting agitated in those cities. And that's not the only place either.

So take a look at these pictures. Police sort of fending off a group of protesters pushing to get on to I-95. They were not going to let that happen but ultimately the corridor was opened up, they did get by but man, it was getting tense for a while there.

So what about today? I just asked the councilman, this problem is still among us. People are still angry.

Rosa Flores joins us now with a closer look at what we can expect across this country today and going into the weekend -- Rosa.

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Ashleigh. You know, social media is also blowing up quite frankly with hashtags like #phillyisBaltimore because that's the sentiment around the country that there is public distrust of police, that police brutality is happening in other cities. That's why we're seeing a lot of other cities come forward and -- that's why we're seeing these demonstrations across the country.

I want to take you to Philadelphia first, because the demonstrations there started off peacefully, then there was a tussle between protesters and police, tension started growing, and then it exploded when demonstrators were trying to get onto I-95, and police were saying no way, not going to happen. We're not going to let you get on to the Interstate because that is not safe. Well, that led to police clustering and trying to stop demonstrators, demonstrators putting their hands up in the air and starting to chant. At the end of the day, two people were arrested there.

But like Ashleigh mentioned, this is not stopping. There are more protests scheduled today. Take a look at this map because we've got it all mapped out for you, from Oakland to Chicago to New York City. There are more protests scheduled today and the number of demonstrators is actually increasing today, and there's a reason because it's also international workers day, and so all the organizations for immigration and workers rights that were scheduled to have demonstrations today are broadening their mission. They're saying we are going to add black lives matter to our mission today so that we can help that effort as well.

So, Ashleigh, more people out on the streets, more cities today and we're expecting more this weekend.

BANFIELD: All right. Rosa Flores keeping an eye on it for us. Thank you for that.

You know, a lot of times when things go wrong, you look to former leaders of former community to find out what their perspective is. Did they cause the problems? Were things better back then? And there is one former leader who is not only the mayor here, he was also the governor of this state.

Martin O'Malley joining us to talk about what his impression of what is wrong in the community is and whether he shares any of the blame.

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[09:18:38] BANFIELD: You know, you probably have heard of cop culture of being the root of a problem that many say is where the Freddie Gray instance really started, is that there is just too much aggression in policing. So, there was not only a governor of Maryland but also a mayor of this city who got tough and said tough policing was the way things should work. And now, Martin O'Malley is having to defend that and fire back at his critics to say, listen, that's the way it works and our crime lights were better then. Our crimes were lower.

He spoke with our Jake Tapper.

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JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: When your police were assertive, there was one year, 2005, when there was something like 100,000 arrests in a city of 600,000 people. That seems like a lot of arrests.

MARTIN O'MALLEY (D), FORMER MARYLAND GOVERNOR: Yes, and a lot of them were the same people again and again and again. We also put mechanisms in place so that we could spare as many people from having a blemish on their record if it indeed were just a one-time event. We also reduced violent crime -- the three cities in America that reduced crime by the greatest amount were three that you would never have guessed 20 years ago. They were New York, Los Angeles and the city of Baltimore, greatest reductions in violent crime over a 10-year period of time.

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BANFIELD: So again, if you have been watching the news, you have been probably seeing that Baltimore is not the only place with people marching in the streets.

[09:20:03] In fact, there are cities all over America where marchers have come out to protest what they see as police brutality. The pictures on your screen. Just last night in Cincinnati, hundreds rallying downtown, calling for an end to what they see as a significant problem. I want to talk about this with Cincinnati's chief of police, Jeffrey

Blackwell, who joins me live right now.

Chief Blackwell, thanks so much for taking the time to come out and talk this morning.

I want to get your impressions first and foremost, and not the issue of one or two nights of people marching in the streets, but the bigger issue of what Baltimore may be facing and other cities across the nation may be facing in terms of this issue, with people feeling the police are too heavy-handed.

Your impression, sir?

CHIEF JEFFREY BLACKWELL, CINCINNATI POLICE: I agree with you, Ashleigh, and good morning.

I think that the nation is speaking very loudly to us in this profession about the need for us to change our strategic and operational guidelines, and how we operate in our cities and in our towns. We have to listen to what people are saying, and we have to effect the change by being adaptable to the changing policing environment. And it's not going to be easy, but it has to be done.

BANFIELD: It's been about 15 years as we do the math, since the riots in your city, and a young man named Timothy Thomas, unarmed black man shot by police. What has changed or what hasn't changed -- I'm going to ask you to be really introspective about this -- as to what's happening in Cincinnati and if there are any lessons people in Baltimore can take from what you have been through?

BLACKWELL: Absolutely. And Commissioner Batts is a good friend, and we will have discussions. I certainly want to help him any way that I can. Cincinnati was there in 2001 and from that, a collaborative agreement was drawn up with the help and the input of thousands of people in our city. That expired in 2007, but we still live by that agreement today eight years after the expiration.

But let me just say this, Ashleigh, if cities are waiting on the DOJ to come in and tell them what they need to do, they are behind the curve. America is speaking loudly right now from all walks of life, in cities big and small, that they want to see transparency, they want to see engagement, and they want to see constitutional policing.

We do that here, we are engaged, we walk our talk, and we're not perfect. There is no panacea, if you will, of policing. But we try our best to remind our officers every day to treat people with dignity and respect, and not be so concerned with the enforcement part of the job that we forget the engagement part, the need to collaborate with our citizens, 99 percent of whom are good, honest, hard-working people.

BANFIELD: And I think, you know, a lot of police would say they need to be treated with respect as well. They have a horrible job. They are put in danger every day. They face a lot of adversity out on the streets as well, which I'm sure leads to a lot of angst. I do want to ask you a little bit about what the solution is in terms

of what people on the streets are demanding. In Ferguson, they wanted a change at the top. They wanted to see the police chief out of a job, and they wanted the mayor out of a job, and they called for that nightly.

I'm not hearing that here, and I'm not sure if it has to do with race or not. I'm not sure how much of this has to do with race, how much of it has to do with policing, and I am sure you know well this community has an extraordinary representation of black people in its leadership -- the police chief, the mayor, half of the police force, and the list goes on in terms of city leaders.

But why isn't anybody calling for their heads at this point?

BLACKWELL: Well, I'm not sure why no one in Baltimore is calling for their heads. But I agree with you wholeheartedly that this isn't about race. This is about operational platforms and it's about leadership in your cities and what you expect your police officers to do, and how you expect them to do it.

It starts with the chief, but it has to be pushed down to the street level, so that your cops in your city are treating people fairly, in an unbiased fashion, and that also they don't have a strategic platform of enforcement. We can't arrest our way out of crime, and I heard the previous show and a lot of dialogue about crime rates being down across the country, and they are. And yet, we still have these protests that are growing every single day.

So I think from the dialogue, we need to take away that it's not necessarily about lowering crime rates. We can't hang our hat simply on the success of lowering crime in our communities, we have to hang our hat on the success of building authentic relationships that are sustainable with our community, so that we can infuse, if you will, guardianship and anchorship in our communities to keep crime down and to keep the relationship between cops and community a healthy one.

[09:25:03] BANFIELD: Jeffrey Blackwell, Chief Blackwell, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us. I hope we get a chance to speak in the future, too.

BLACKWELL: Thank you, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Still to come, with some noise behind us as traffic begins to build this morning in Baltimore, I'm going to take you to a place you probably haven't seen yet -- inside where some of those looters their trade, damaged their neighbor's businesses, and then, in fact, injured people as well. A Korean store owner who was dragged out of his own store and beaten to the point where four days later, he is still spitting blood and he has a black eye. He's going to explain what happened to him and where this goes from here.

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BANFIELD: Welcome back, everyone. Live outside Baltimore City Hall, I'm Ashleigh Banfield, reporting for Carol Costello this morning. I wanted to take you on a tour of something I saw yesterday. And it's

not a pleasant sight and it's so unfortunate, but it's something I think everyone should see.

On Monday night, you probably saw the riots here in Baltimore, but you might not have seen is those really caught up in it and injured, the people who actually lost their livelihoods, the stores that were looted, I met a Korean business owner who not only lost everything in his store, but he was also beaten terribly badly by the looters, in fact.

Now, he doesn't speak English very well, so it was very kind of him to allow us to go into his store with a friend of his, Charlie Sung (ph), who's going to translate for you.