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Gray Death Ruled Homicide, Police Officers Arrested; Marilyn Mosby: "Heard Cries of No Justice, No Peace"; Sybrina Fulton Comments on Officers Charged. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired May 1, 2015 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:30:59] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: This morning here in Baltimore, Freddie Gray's death was officially ruled a homicide. We learned that from the states attorney. Now these six police officers involved in his arrest are all facing various criminal charges, five of whom are now in police custody. The driver of that prisoner transport van facing the most severe charge, second-degree depraved- heart murder. Freddie Gray was zip-tied, handcuffed, laid on his stomach, and unrestrained on that fatal ride ultimately to police station and finally to a shock and trauma hospital here in the city. His rapidly deteriorating medical condition allegedly ignored by these officers over and over and over again.

Joining me now, retired NYPD detective, Harry Houck. I have forensic scientist, Larry Kobilinsky, professor of John Jay College of Justice. And also with me, Lieutenant Anton Snead, watch commander, DeKalb County Police in Tucker, Georgia

Lieutenant Snead, let me begin with you.

We want to focus in on this police transport van. Hopefully, most of us have never had to be in one, so just to be able to understand what it looks like. Can you just show me inside, and especially show me where suspects should be restrained?

LT. ANTON SNEAD, WATCH COMMANDER, DEKALB COUNTY POLICE, TUCKER GEORGIA: Yes, I will. First of all, this is the entrance to the transport vehicle. I'll go inside and show you a few things. This is basically where we put -- this is basically where the subjects will be. As I'm sitting here, as you can see, we have seat belts we use to restrain them in. Once we put them inside, it's just like a regular seat belt. We put them inside, put the seat belt on them, pull it tight to make sure they're secure in this particular location.

BALDWIN: OK. So that's where somebody should be seated and restrained. Also, right in front of you looks to be like a metal partition. Does that go all the way from the floor to the ceiling? I ask only because there have been reports about another prisoner in a van who could hear the noises made. Could you hear? How thick is that wall?

SNEAD: It's basically a partition that separates male and female prisoners on each side. It's just to separate the two of them. It's not thick at all. It's basically used as a separator to separate male and female prisoners.

BALDWIN: OK. Lieutenant, thank you. We're going to stay on your shot here.

And, Harry Houck, let me bring you in.

Listening to the states attorney this morning going through this chronology of how time and time again this van stopped, needed a medic. He was saying he couldn't breathe, was never restrained. I know that's against protocol. How unusual is that?

HARRY HOUCK, FORMER NEW YORK CITY POLICE DEPARTMENT DETECTIVE: Well, as far as she means restrained, she's talking about being seat belted. When you put a prisoner in a prisoner van like that, he should be seat belted. This way, in the event the vehicle is driving a little crazy, he doesn't get injured. Although, he still can be injured. What I'm concerned about is the top charge for that officer Goodson here. I'm looking at a second-degree murder charge for that officer. I'm assuming the police officer and district attorney's office must have video from the CCTV that's all around Baltimore following that vehicle of that officer giving Mr. Gray a rough ride.

BALDWIN: I'm not privy to any kind of video that the city has, but I can tell you that without a doubt, at the end of Marilyn Mosby's news conference earlier today, she said, you know, this spinal injury, his injuries happened while he was in the custody of Baltimore police, specifically when he was in that van.

HOUCK: Correct, and I understand that. There was a four-minute time period he was in the back of that van alone. Then there was another 25-minute period when he was in the back of that van with the other prisoner inside that van. The other prisoner clearly stated he heard what sounded like Gray trying to hurt himself in that van also. Also, that's --

(CROSSTALK)

[14:35:29] BALDWIN: By the way, that's one report from a source from "The Washington Post." Let's be crystal clear that's a report. I also have information -- Don Lemon will join me next hour. He apparently talked to the person in the van who disputes that claim. Let's just be crystal clear on that.

HOUCK: Right. Exactly. We still don't know all the evidence that they have on these officers. We know they've been charged. We got six officers charged. Why five other officers are charged with such high crimes, I'd like to know about that. I'd like to know, how did they prove this officer gave Mr. Gray a rough ride for him to sustain his injuries. They're going to have to prove that.

BALDWIN: Absolutely. Entirely valid questions.

And, Larry Kobilinsky, to you.

Just for my forensic perspective, because we also learned this morning before any of this news came out about the charges, we learned the medical examiner sent the full autopsy report to Marilyn Mosby. There were questions over would it come back inconclusive, or would it be ruled a homicide? We know it was ruled a homicide. Can you explain to me how that happens. If you're an M.E. and putting this report together, what are the telling factors that say homicide?

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST & PROFESSOR, JOHN JAY COLLEGE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE: Well, first of all, we don't have the autopsy report. There's very critical information in that report that we really need in order to interpret the mechanism of what happened. Medical examiners determine cause of death and manner of death. Cause of death is going to be respiratory and cardiac failure, secondary to spinal trauma, severance of the spinal cord. The manner of death can fall into five categories. Some of the relevant categories would be accident or homicide or natural causes. Certainly, indeterminate or unknown is another category. But that category of unknown manner of death is when there's insufficient information to come to any kind of conclusion.

BALDWIN: It sounds to me -- pardon my interruption --

KOBILINSKY: Sure.

BALDWIN: -- but it sounds like, from the states attorney's office, the injuries happen as he was on his stomach, unrestrained, in the prisoner transport van.

KOBILINSKY: Well, that's correct. And that leads me to believe that it was either a rough ride that caused a whiplash effect, or it could have been that he was thrown against a bolt, which injured his head. I would like to see the x-rays of the vertebrae to show there was a compression injury of the vertebrae. That's why the autopsy report is so very important if, in fact, the injuries occurred in the van. The other possibility is that it didn't occur in the van. The severance of the cord may have happened in the van, but the initial damage to the vertebrae happened upon arrest. Now, if that's being ruled out, we need to see evidence in the autopsy report.

BALDWIN: Larry Kobilinsky, thank you.

Harry Houck, thank you.

And, Lieutenant Anton Snead, with that prisoner transport van.

Thank you all so much.

Next, today, the states attorney, Marilyn Mosby, here in Baltimore said that the death of Freddie Gray was a homicide, as we've been discussing here. She brought those criminal charges against these six officers, all of who are suspended, now five in police custody. She said she heard protesters' calls for "no justice, no peace," and she responded directly to the young people here in Baltimore. We have more.

Also, we'll talk with Maryland Congressman Chris Van Hollen and what he thinks about the latest developments in the death of Freddie Gray. You're watching CNN. Stay with right with us.

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[14:43:21] BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. Breaking news here. The mayor in the city of Baltimore says she's, quote, "sickened and heartbroken" after hearing these charges announced against six of her city police officers in the death of 25-year-old Freddie Gray. Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake said, quote, "No one is above the law," and that "There is no place for any police officer in her city's department who engages in brutality and racism." Those are her words she used this afternoon.

Today, she called for the suspension of all six officers charged and announced five of them are now in police custody. The charges against them revealed today by Baltimore states attorney, Marilyn Mosby, and includes second-degree murder, voluntary manslaughter, and manslaughter, misconduct and assault.

Here's Marilyn Mosby as she made this major announcement.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARILYN MOSBY, BALTIMORE STATES ATTORNEY: The findings of our comprehensive, thorough, and independent investigation coupled with the medical examiner's determination that Mr. Gray's death was a homicide, which we received today, has led us to believe that we have probable cause to file criminal charges.

(SHOUTING)

MOSBY: The statement of probable cause is as follows. On April 12th, 2015, between 8:45 and 9:15 a.m., near the corner of North Avenue and Mount Street, Lieutenant Brian Rice, of the Baltimore Police Department, while on bike patrol with Officers Garrett Miller and Edward Nero, made eye contact with Mr. Gray. Having made eye contact with Mr. Gray, Mr. Gray subsequently ran from Lieutenant Rice. Lieutenant Rice then dispatched over departmental radio that he was involved in a foot pursuit at which time Bike Patrol Officers Ed Nero -- Officers Miller and Nero also began to pursue Mr. Gray. Officers Miller and Nero then placed Mr. Gray in a seated position and subsequently found a knife clipped to the inside of his pants pocket. The blade of the knife was folded into the handle. The knife was not a switchblade and is lawful under Maryland law. These officers subsequently removed the knife and placed it on the sidewalk. Mr. Gray was then placed back down on his stomach at which time Mr. Gray began to flail his legs and scream as Officer Miller placed Mr. Gray in a restraining technique known as a leg lace while Officer Nero physically held him down against his will in a BPD wagon arrived to transport Mr. Gray.

Lieutenant Rice, Officer Miller and Officer Nero failed to establish probable cause for Mr. Gray's arrest, as no crime had been committed by Mr. Gray. Accordingly, Lieutenant Rice, Officer Miller and Officer Nero illegally arrested Mr. Gray. By the time Officer Zachary Novak, Sergeant White, and an unknown officer attempted to remove Mr. Gray from the wagon, Mr. Gray was no longer breathing at all. A medic was finally called to the scene where, upon arrival, the medic terms that Mr. Gray was now in cardiac arrest and was critically and severely injured. Mr. Gray was rushed to the University of Maryland Shock Trauma where he underwent surgery. On April 19th, 2015, Mr. Gray succumbed to his injuries and was pronounced dead.

To the people of Baltimore and the demonstrators across America, I heard your call for no justice, no peace. Your peace is sincerely needed as I work to deliver justice on behalf of this young man.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[14:47:03] BALDWIN: Let me bring in Maryland Congressman Chris Van Hollen, live in our nation's capital.

Congressman, welcome.

REP. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, (D), MARYLAND: It's good to be with you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: I want to ask you about this phone call you were just on in a second. But first, I would be remiss, out of the gate, not to ask you about the news here, knowing all these police officers are criminally charged in what appears to be the swift action of the states attorney.

VAN HOLLEN: Well, all of Maryland, I think all of the country is insisting on justice in the case of Freddie Gray. So we stand with the people of Baltimore in the search for justice. Nonviolent action and peace in Baltimore. So I think it was important that we had this investigation, that the facts were reported in the way they were, and that we have transparency and accountability. This is the beginning of the process, and the key thing is to make sure people have confidence in the process. I think the way the states attorney laid out the facts of the case give people a sense of that transparency and the need to move forward.

BALDWIN: Let me ask you one more follow-up on Marilyn Mosby. After she ran through this entire detailed narrative of what happened to Freddie Gray on April 12th, I was also struck by how it seemed at the very end of it, she was speaking directly to the young people in particular here in Baltimore, saying essentially, I hear you. She was pleading for peace. Obviously, going into this weekend. But this seemed personal to her. Did you hear that at all?

VAN HOLLEN: Yes, I think there's a real sense of responsibility that she's taken on in this case. The responsibility to make sure that she gets to the bottom of the facts quickly but thoroughly, and she really did lay out the facts in a very detailed manner. That's the kind of transparency that we want to see in this case and the kind of transparency that leads to accountability and ultimately justice in the Freddie Gray case.

And if you look at the protests in Baltimore, overwhelmingly, they have been peaceful. What we want to see is the call to action, nonviolent action. And I think her call was to say to young people and people who are paying attention and want justice in this case that it's important to let the process run its course and that she's taking responsibility for doing her part in this process. Others will also be playing a role, including the attorney general of the United States.

BALDWIN: Tell me about the phone conversation you just had, Congressman.

VAN HOLLEN: Well, I think as we look at the awful tragedy in Baltimore and other tragedies we've seen around the country, we have to make sure we have justice in each individual case, but we also have to look at the systemic underlying issues that give rise to many of these tragedies. And that means really focusing on the issue of poverty in many of these areas of concentrated poverty and high unemployment. It means ending the failed war on drugs, which has resulted in millions of Americans being locked up for nonviolent drug offenses, which in my view should be treated as a health issue rather than a criminal issue. And I was just on a phone conversation with the head of the Congressional Black Caucus as well as Congresswoman Barbara Lee, who's a member of the Budget Committee that I serve on, as well as Congressman Bobby Scott, who's the senior Democrat on the education committee and someone who's worked on criminal justice reform. We were talking about the urgent need to begin to address these issues of chronic poverty, and we did it in the context of the debate on the budget. Just yesterday, we had a vote in the House of Representatives on a budget that we believe actually makes these problems a lot worse, and we put forward ideas to begin to address these systemic issues. So that was the conversation we just had with the leadership of the Congressional Black Caucus as it relates to Freddie Gray and other tragedies around the country.

[14:51:30] BALDWIN: Walking around these neighborhoods this past week, it really appears to me and in talking to these young people, so much of this absolutely stems -- it's a socioeconomic issue. I'm reminded by people here in Baltimore when you look at the other part of this, a number of people making a lot of money in states where some of these drugs are legal, like in Colorado. They're saying, it doesn't appear to be fair. That's a discussion for another day.

But Congressman, thank you so much for your time from Washington. Appreciate it.

VAN HOLLEN: And thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, here in Baltimore today, Trayvon Martin's mother marching. We talk to her here at CNN. Her reaction to the news of these criminal charges involving all six Baltimore police officers, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:5616:] BALDWIN: We now know that as 25-year-old Freddie Gray lay on the floor of that prisoner transport van, he was zip tied and handcuffed, he called out for help. Despite his rapidly deteriorating medical condition, his pleas were repeatedly ignored by police officers. For Freddie Gray's family, this disturbing allegation about his final minutes will no doubt be incredibly painful. And no one knows pain better than the mother of Trayvon Martin, the 17-year-old from Miami Gardens who was shot and killed by George Zimmerman back in 2012.

Let's go to Rene Marsh, who spoke with Sybrina Fulton.

Rene, tell me what she shared with you.

RENE MARSH, CNN AVIATION & GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, we're at Pennsylvania Avenue and west North Avenue. This really has been the epicenter of the so-called celebrations. Sybrina Fulton was out here a short time ago giving out sandwiches to people within the community. I spoke to her specifically about the announcement today coming from the state attorney and asking her what was her initial reaction. She said, in a word, she was surprised.

Take a listen to what else she had to say. She doesn't want everyone to get this excited just yet. Here's why.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SYBRINA FULTON, MOTHER OF TRAYVON MARTIN: Although we are celebrating in some manner that the police officers are going to be charged, that's just one step to getting justice because we know full well that charged does not mean convicted. So a lot of people have to just take a step back and realize that although they might be charged, they have not been convicted of anything. In our case, with Trayvon Martin, the person was charged. Yes, they were charged. We had a full trial. But he, at the end of the day, was not convicted. So he's walking around just like anybody else as if he has done nothing. But we all know God sits high and looks low. Though you might get away with man's law, God sees all. What's going on now is nothing new. It's just being more aware. People are being more aware and it's being put on Front Street because of the fact that we have so many venues of social media. So now the word is getting out. This is not something new. This is something that we have been substaining. This is something we have been dealing with our entire lives.

MARSH: What's your level of optimism? You brought up the point that it still has to go to trial. What's your level of optimism that these officers will be found guilty?

FULTON: I really don't know, but I just absolutely think that this is a step in the right direction, for other people, for people to just see this is wrong. For a person to be murdered in police custody is wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARSH: All right. Well, I can tell you that Sybrina Fulton does have a meeting set with the Gray family. She's meeting with them face to face. I asked her what would she tell them. She said what she said there on camera, which is the Lord sits high and he looks low. So she's going to speak with them with a spirit of encouragement. All of that happening as the celebrations continue out here. So much so that it's really bleeding into the roadways. The cops out here are having to direct traffic as a result of some very, very excited people at the news that the state attorney delivered today -- Brooke?

[14:59:00] BALDWIN: OK. Rene Marsh, thank you so much for pointing out what all this is about behind you there, what they call Penn North there in west Baltimore.

Rene, thank you.

And we continue on. Hour two here. I just want to welcome our viewers here in the United States and all around the world. You're watching CNN's special live coverage just outside of Baltimore city hall. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you for being with me.