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Baltimore Police Probe; U.K. Election Drama; Football Star Arrested; Brady Fires Back. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired May 7, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[14:00:06] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Here we go. Top of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for being with me here.

New doubts - new doubt over the charges against those six Baltimore city police officers. Nearly a week after protesters cheered that decision by Baltimore's chief city prosecutor to charge those six officers in the death of 25-year-old Freddie Gray, CNN is now learning that some are concerned the city could explode, their word, once again, if Marilyn Mosby's case against the officers unravels. Mosby completed her own independent investigation separate from the one conducted by Baltimore Police. Officials familiar with both cases tell CNN there are stark differences between the two that could allow defense attorneys to undercut the prosecution.

Those defense attorneys are already seizing upon the opportunity to file motions on behalf of two of these accused officers. All of them but part of this involved two we discussed yesterday. One major difference in these two cases, the police investigation doesn't support some of the serious charges like second-degree murder.

Let's begin, first, with Joe Johns in Washington with more on this.

Tell me more about these two different cases and how they don't overlap.

JOE JOHNS, CNN WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Right. Yes, I think that's the important thing to say to the viewers right now. There were two investigations into the death of Freddie Gray. The first was by the Baltimore Police. The second was by the prosecutor. And so what you're going to see is the emergence of this narrative that suggests there are differences between the cases. So the Baltimore police investigation, some say, could end up undercutting the prosecution because these things don't support the charges.

Sources familiar with the case say those contradictions could help the six officers. Already signs of conflict, including this issue of a knife found on Freddie Gray, whether it was legal. Mosby's investigation, the prosecutor's investigation, found that the officers had no reason to arrest Gray because that knife was legal in the state of Maryland, according to Maryland laws. But the police investigation found that the knife was illegal under the laws of the city of Baltimore.

Now, officials familiar with these probes also say the police investigation contemplated manslaughter charges, even though the driver of the van in which Freddie Gray was seriously injured was charged with second-degree murder. That's a much more serious charge. And the police apparently were only looking at manslaughter.

So these fault lines between the two investigations are going to be probed again and again as the defense of these six officers actually gets going, Brooke.

BALDWIN: All right, Joe, thank you.

Staying on Baltimore, very soon 2016 Republican presidential candidate Dr. Ben Carson is expected to be in the city. He will be there to meet with faith and community leaders. And he's had a very close connection, actually, to the community in Baltimore. He spent more than three decades of his life there, having served as director of pediatric neurosurgery at John Hopkins. Today, Dr. Carson told CNN, Baltimore state's attorney, Marilyn Mosby, had to act after all the rioting and protests that city had seen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There is something that went wrong. Somebody did something inappropriate and, therefore, she understood, I believe, that she was sitting on a powder keg and needed to do something to calm the situation down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Do something, he says. CNN political commentator Charles Blow, also an op-ed columnist for "The New York Times" is with me. Also Jonathan Gilliam, a career public servant who has served as a police officer, Navy SEAL, federal air marshal and FBI special agent. So, gentlemen, thank you so much to both of you.

Charles Blow, to you first. You just heard Dr. Carson saying she had to do something. Is that the right reason to act, to do something?

CHARLES BLOW, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I mean, that's not a right reason to make a charge, right. I think we can both agree with that. I think he's speaking as a politician. I think we all have to step - take a step back and realize the motivation that each person has in each of these cases.

BALDWIN: Their dog's in the fight.

BLOW: We - we all have -- they all have dogs in the fight. And we look at kind of attorneys as if they are actually delivering the news to us. They're not journalists. They have a motivation for what they say. And you will never hear anybody go back to an attorney and say, you know what, you exaggerated that one fact when you were on television before. That doesn't happen, right? They never get held accountable for that, but they do that all the time.

And so what we have to understand is, when you have investigations, they conflict. When you have attorneys and they conflict. These are not journalists. They are not held to the same standards that we are when we're delivering news. And so we - when you put it into that broader context, you understand how you are going to have this - these conflicts and you understand how if people are taking that as if that is gospel truth, that they are going to run into problems because it's never going to fit a narrative. If you have already accepted and believed that the outcome should be a certain way rather than having yourself open and floating to follow the truth, wherever that may lead, then you're going to run into problems.

[14:05:30] BALDWIN: And we don't know the full truth.

BLOW: We don't know that.

BALDWIN: That's also so key to underscore, right, especially from -

BLOW: We don't know - we don't know -

BALDWIN: From Marilyn Mosby. We don't -

BLOW: We don't know the details of either one of these investigations.

BALDWIN: Absolutely. And I just think it's really important to reiterate that over and over and over. But here's the but. If it turns out, Jonathan, that Marilyn Mosby doesn't have all the evidence to back up these charges, and you heard the concern from some folks in the communities saying, you know, you saw what happened in Baltimore before these officers were charged. If she can't back this up, they're worried the city will - and I don't mean this literally, but burn, explode -

JONATHAN GILLIAM, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Implode.

BALDWIN: Implode.

GILLIAM: Right. You know, I think this is a good example, again, of the lack of standards in Baltimore. And, unfortunately --

BALDWIN: What kind of standards?

GILLIAM: Well, across the board. Baltimore is a perfect example of what not to do on so many levels. You know, when it comes to police, you know, in the bureau, I know when we were in there and if you had had somebody complaining about their legs, we'd just stop what we're doing and we'd get an ambulance there. There needs to be standards like this. Officers need to be told, you will do this and you will not do that. And they need - those rules need to be enforced.

At the same time -

BALDWIN: So that comes from the top.

GILLIAM: That comes from the top, exactly. See, a lot of this is a trickle-down effect from the top.

Also, when you have a state's attorney that comes out and appeases a crowd, you get yourself into these situations that she's in now.

BALDWIN: You're referring to her after announcing last Friday when she announced the charges then sort of speaking to the protesters.

GILLIAM: That's correct. You know, she has to remember, she's there to defend justice on all sides, and you cannot go out and make political statements, which you were just saying, even if you have a dog in the fight. What these people need to start realizing is, once you get elected to a certain position, you need to start treating that position in the way and for the reasons that you were elected.

And let me just say this about Baltimore imploding.

BALDWIN: Sure.

GILLIAM: I think what we saw the night after the riots and for the rest of that week was we saw two things. We saw the city and the state doing what they should have done the night before the riots. And that should have been a pre-thought-out standard. Everything I've ever done in military and law enforcement were very standardized, which is why I'm surprised. They should already have had a plan and foresaw what could have happened.

Also, though, the city and the community have to have standards for themselves. I grew up extremely poor and poverty knows no color, it knows no race, it knows nothing about sex. It just knows that when it takes away from you, people, then their minds and their communities start to search and look for either success or ways to occupy their time. This community has to do what they did the day after the riots, come together and stop this before it goes any further. That, regardless of what the city does, is probably going to be what keeps this from happening.

BALDWIN: OK. OK. To you on Marilyn Mosby. And I talked to Don Lemon about this recently about the whole she's damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. If she had waited to announce charges, the violence could have been worse. If she had then come out a little later and said, no charges, the people who are supporting her now would be blaming her instead. So react to that.

BLOW: Well, I mean, I - like I said, I don't know what her investigation shows. So I don't know about timing. People say it was too fast or not fast enough. I can't even speak to that because I have no clue what -

BALDWIN: But perception. (INAUDIBLE) perception (INAUDIBLE).

BLOW: What that says - how - that said, however, there are politicians in Baltimore who could have delivered the message of, now you have your verdict and can we calm down, can we get, you know, not be in the streets or whatever. That - the prosecutor did not have to be the person to deliver that message. She could have just read the charges. I think the charges are actually very aggressive based on what we know so far. And that alone stands for itself. I think the political message could have been delivered by someone else.

GILLIAM: I think - can I just say -

BLOW: Yes. GILLIAM: One thing that you said that's very important there was that you said that she - other politicians could have said, here's your verdict. And here -

BLOW: Not, that's your verdict, I mean, but -

GILLIAM: No, but you were - you were exactly - you are exactly right in using those words because the community wants a verdict now. That's what happens -

BLOW: No, I don't - I don't think that's right. That's a misspeak. That's a misspeak.

GILLIAM: In heated situations.

BLOW: I'm not saying that that should be the verdict.

GILLIAM: I'm not saying that you meant that -

BLOW: Right.

GILLIAM: But in heated situations, the public wants an answer right now. And sometimes you just have to be patient. And the same people that helped stop that are going to be the same people that they should be reaching out to (INAUDIBLE) -

BLOW: Right, but I think people want action, right?

GILLIAM: Sure.

BLOW: And people want - people want there to be action. And I think that there's a larger issue of whether or not people are held accountable. And this idea of accountability is a real question not just in Baltimore but just across the country.

GILLIAM: Absolutely.

[14:10:06] BALDWIN: Everywhere.

BLOW: And people are just searching for an example that tells them that a life is gone and is there anyone who is accountable for that? And if there is no one who is accountable for that, that really kind of strikes at the core of who we are as human beings as to whether or not we are going to say, you know, it's just a casualty of the - of war. This is just - you're just, you know -

BALDWIN: I know exactly what you're saying, having been in Baltimore last week, having talked to a number of people in these communities. I think accountability is huge, huge, huge with police. When you look at the other cases and, you know, the facts are the facts and some - there have been these non-indictments but, in this case, it seems so different.

BLOW: Right.

BALDWIN: And it's the accountability factor. And it would be huge if, you know, the evidence isn't there.

GILLIAM: But if accountability is on different levels. If you put cops in jail, this does nothing to change the standards. That's where the real accountability lies. What is the city telling the police officers you can and cannot do? What are they telling the community you must be responsible for this, this, and this? If the - if the leaders of the community don't stand up --

BALDWIN: Yes.

BLOW: But, you know -

BALDWIN: We got to -

BLOW: But assuming they're - but assuming they're guilty of something, which we don't know that, they are still innocent -

GILLIAM: Hold them accountable.

BLOW: You're right. If you do put them - it actually does say something because at this point we're having a situation where we haven't seen people held accountable for people dying. And if you're a healthy human being and they take you into custody, rightly or wrongly, and you end up dead, somebody should be held accountable.

GILLIAM: I agree. I just think it should be the highers as well as employees (ph).

BALDWIN: Charles Blow, Jonathan Gilliam, I appreciate it. We'll do this again.

GILLIAM: You got it. Sure.

BALDWIN: We'll do this again.

Next, just a short time from now, British voters will decide the fate of David Cameron. Hear how Russell Brand and social media are actually playing huge, huge roles.

Plus, a football star in college accused of punching out this gay couple after the men kissed on a street. Hear what happened and what the team is doing to this player.

And breaking now, word that a U.S. drone strike has killed a major terror leader. We have those details.

You're watching CNN. Stay here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:16:15] BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

And here you go, pictures of a polling station. Millions of voters at the poll today for what's shaping up to be one of the tightest elections in history in the U.K.. And what happens now as the power to dramatically shift the relationship between the U.S. and Britain, it's key, key ally. And the whole thing really comes down to these two men, here they are, who are neck and neck right now. On the left, conservative current Prime Minister David Cameron. On the right, Ed Miliband, leaders of the more liberal opposition labor party. But one of the more fascinating actually aspects of this election is how it's all playing out on social media today.

So joining me now, one of my favorite people in the building and happens to be the CNN head of social media and senior director of strategy, Samantha Berry.

All right, so you have the skinny as far as what's happening on social beginning with - tell me about this hack. What happened?

SAMANTHA BARRY, CNN HEAD OF SOCIAL MEDIA: It's a hack. It's a Wikipedia hack. It's not that hard to do.

BALDWIN: You rolled your eyes. You were like, well -

BARRY: Yes. It's basically, for a few minutes this morning, if you were in the U.K. and you went to the pages of David Cameron, who's the head of the conservative party -

BALDWIN: Right.

BARRY: You went to (INAUDIBLE) Wikipedia page, if you went to Nick Clegg's Wikipedia page, you would see this image, this big, red image with vote labour. That was up online for just a couple of minutes but, obviously, a lot of eagle eye, social media people saw it, screen grabbed it, re-tweeted it just before Wikipedia came in and put these pages in a state of what they call a state of protection just to protect them from any other hacks. Later today (INAUDIBLE).

BALDWIN: OK. So many people are talking about this Russell Brand interview that's now been seen many, many times on YouTube. Who was he talking to?

BARRY: This is - Russell Brand spoke on his YouTube channel to the head of the labour party, Ed Miliband, and people are saying that this is a social media turning point during this U.K. election. Russell Brand notoriously in the U.K. had come out over and over again over the last few years saying don't vote, don't vote, don't let the politicians know that you want to vote. and it was a very, very strong stance that he took. In the last few weeks, he got Ed Miliband on his YouTube station and did an interview and he now, three days ago, came out and publicly endorsed the labour party. And that's a big one. Russell Brand, in particular amongst the younger generation in the U.K., they really respect what he has to say.

BALDWIN: So they're clicking, they're watching, they're educating themselves, they're voting. And if you want more information on the British elections, cnn.com. Sam Barry, thank you very much.

He was a star running - college running back, but today Stewart Butler has been kicked off the team at West Virginia's Marshall University. That is because the 23-year-old is facing battery charges for allegedly attacking two men he saw kissing on a street in downtown Huntington.

Marshall University issued this statement. Let me read this for you. "The entire university community is shocked and disappointed to learn the details surrounding the alleged actions that led to Mr. Butler's arrest. The type of violent bigoted behavior reported to have been perpetrated by this student is not tolerated at Marshall University, period. This is an extremely serious matter."

Joining me now, CNN commentator and ESPN senior writer and columnist LZ Granderson.

Hi, LZ.

LZ GRANDERSON, CNN COMMENTATOR: Hey there, Brooke.

BALDWIN: So we know that, you know, obviously, innocent until proven guilty. In this case, you know, in sense here. But are you surprised? We talked about him being, you know, kicked off the football team. Are you surprised the school itself, the university didn't act swifter as well?

GRANDERSON: Well, you know, initially I thought that the school had moved relatively quickly on this after the arrest. But then there's been later reports that I've seen that the police officer that was involved in the investigation actually was somewhat stonewalled by the football team. That they didn't right away try to assist in identifying who the player was. And, in fact, reportedly that the driver of the vehicle that the - that the alleged attacker was riding in was also a football player that the football team has not provided that name to local authorities. That was the last report that I received. I tried calling the university myself to verify that, and let's just say I think they're a little busy. No one's picking up the phones.

[14:20:22] BALDWIN: OK. Yes. I'm not surprised. I'm sure they're trying to get all this - all the facts together. What about - we know that the FBI is involved. So there could potentially be federal charges. Based upon what you know, do you think this kind of case could warrant that?

GRANDERSON: Well, absolutely. I mean right now, in the state, there aren't any parameters for this to be called a hate crime because sexual orientation isn't a protected class in the state. However -

BALDWIN: In the state of West Virginia, right.

GRANDERSON: In west - exactly. However, it is available for the FBI to implement. And when you think about what's allegedly on the tape, I haven't seen the video myself, but reportedly you can hear racial - or racial - in addition to anti-gay slurs being uttered by the suspect, and then, in addition to the fact that the suspect allegedly said that he doesn't like that, meaning he does not like the fact that they were kissing. So I think just based upon what's being reported thus far about what the suspect actually said, it looks as if it would indeed be, in fact - the FBI would find it to be a hate crime. BALDWIN: Let me back up because I think we glossed over the state-

level situation in West Virginia. Now I hear you on the federal level. But so just so we're crystal clear, if, you know, one were to beat up a gay couple in the state of West Virginia, you could not ever be charged with a hate crime.

GRANDERSON: That is correct. As it is right now, the LGBT community is not seen as a protected class under the hate crime bill in West Virginia.

BALDWIN: So instead, in this case, it's battery.

GRANDERSON: Right.

BALDWIN: Just curious, do you know, is that - you know, majority states don't protect sexual orientation or no?

GRANDERSON: The majority of states do not protect. You know it's really interesting that with all of the goodwill, if you will, and positive energy in regards to same-sex marriages and what we're expecting or hoping that the Supreme Court eventually rules -

BALDWIN: Right.

GRANDERSON: The fact of the matter is, is that there's still a lot of laws that are not - that still need to be passed. You can still be fired in most of the country for being openly gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender. You could lose your home. And then here, when it comes to the hate crime legislation, it is not the law of the land. And so, as the case with West Virginia, you can be directly attacked for being openly gay. And while it is a battery, you know, misdemeanor or what have you, it is not considered a hate crime. And that, obviously, is a problem.

And if I can just add one more wrinkle.

BALDWIN: Yes.

GRANDERSON: As disappointing as this all is, unfortunately, I believe we're going to start seeing more and more of these sort of attacks because of what's been going on with the Supreme Court and with same- sex marriages. If you look at the long arc of history in regards to social change in this country, what usually follow are these isolated incidents of attacks and violence is the response to it. So you have this football player right now. But right now in New York City, in Chelsea, they're trying to find a suspect who hit a gay couple over their heads with a chair in a restaurant in Chelsea, which is a gay neighborhood in Manhattan. So you have the football player here in West Virginia, but you also have somewhat of a similar hate crime attack in Manhattan.

BALDWIN: Unacceptable. I hope these are very few and far between, these isolated incidents, as we wait for the Supreme Court to make that decision this summer.

LZ Granderson, always a pleasure, my friend. Thank you so much. GRANDERSON: Thank you very much, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, Tom Brady fires back after the NFL suggests he knew about those deflated footballs. So, will he be punished? What about his legacy? We're going to marinate on that.

Also, one of the high-profile witnesses in the death of Michael Brown in Ferguson has just been arrested hours after he filed a lawsuit against the city and that police officer, Darren Wilson. We'll speak live with his lawyer ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:28:20] BALDWIN: New England Patriots quarterback Tom Brady firing back. He is speaking tonight at Salem State University. It's an event he had committed to months ago. But the timing here, this now is one day after an NFL report claims Brady likely knew the footballs he used during that AFC championship against the Indianapolis Colts were underinflated. His agent is already sounding off, saying, let me just read part of the quote for you. "This report contains significant and tragic flaws and it is common knowledge in the legal industry that reports like this generally are written for the benefit of the purchaser."

The NFL's report includes evidence of these damning text exchanges between these two equipment employees, Jim McNally and John Jastremski. Let me just read a short exchange of the text. Jastremski, "can't wait to give you your needle this week." McNally, "F Tom. Make sure the pump is attached to the needle. F-ing watermelons coming." Jastremski, "So angry." McNally, "the only thing deflating Sunday is his passing rating." Of course, alluding to the fact that he normally likes his balls under - his footballs underinflated. And obviously they were saying that they would do the opposite.

CNN Sports anchor Rachel Nichols and partner and sports attorney at Loeb & Loeb, Ryan Sokolo (ph), both here with me now.

Welcome to both of you.

I mean when I saw you first thing this morning, I was - well, I was already on it. I was already on it.

RACHEL NICHOLS, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR: We're going to talk about this. We're going to talk about this.

BALDWIN: And you were saying, in terms of legacy for Tom Brady, he will be the great quarterback -

NICHOLS: Absolutely.

BALDWIN: Which he is.

NICHOLS: Hall of Famer. Multiple Super Bowl winner. But if these allegations stick -

BALDWIN: Yes. NICHOLS: If this becomes the public record, then the end of that sentence is, oh, yes, and he cheated. And it doesn't matter that it's a small amount of cheating. In sports, cheating is cheating.

[14:29:58] And I want to have you look at these newspaper headlines from this morning. These are pretty damning. All right, you've got "great balls of liar" from "The New York Daily News." You've got "big nose, small balls." You have "NFL probe has Brady by the balls."