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Nun Testifies for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev; George Zimmerman Shot; Tornadoes Hit South. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired May 11, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:00:04]

JENNIFER GRAY, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Looks like they have gotten in a car accident with two-by-fours stuck through the windshield. And you can only imagine the terror that these families must have been going through during the time of this tornado.

You know, we have talked to people who are missing animals, and then they're being reunited, as we saw last hour. So, during all this devastation, of course, we always look for those little glimmers of hope. And we have seen that here in Van. Of course, it's going to be a long, long time before they're able to get back on their feet.

As you mentioned, some of the schools were heavily damaged. We know they're going to consolidate two of the schools for the last couple of weeks of school, so they can make it through until summer begins.

But it has been a rough 24 hours for the people here in Van. They say they're resilient, they're going to rebuild. And I believe that, because this looks like a very strong community. The people here are really coming together, Brooke.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Our thoughts with the people of Van and all these areas hardest-hit.

Jennifer Gray, thank you so much.

Now, you see these homes. People have lost so much. And then others just happened to be passing through, including the next guest I'm about to bring in.

Amy Johnson was driving, happened to be driving from Georgia to Dallas when this awful weather hit.

Amy, so you're a recent University of Georgia grad. You're heading to Dallas. And then tell me what you saw, what you heard.

AMY JOHNSON, TORNADO SURVIVOR: So we were coming about 10 minutes ahead of Van. And we were driving through. The weather was just getting too bad that we knew we had to pull over. Lightning was striking, from what I could tell, just basically on the road. It was too hectic.

And I was with my boyfriend. And we pulled over and took shelter in the first place we could find. And that happened to be a Hardee's. And we weren't alone. There was about 50 other people sitting in the restaurant. The power had gone out. Our phones were dying. We were trying to check the radar. No one really knew what exactly was going on.

But the Hardee's employees were giving out blankets and food and ice and water and trying to keep everyone calm. A little bit after we got there, we heard the next round of sirens, and they had rushed us into two freezer rooms...

BALDWIN: Oh, my goodness.

JOHNSON: ... that fits about 30 people each, which was shocking.

And -- but we felt safe. Everyone was crammed in there. There was children with blankets around them. And there's adults hyperventilating. People were having their children trying to sing songs just to calm them down, and "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star."

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Hold on. So, you're in a freezer trying to stay safe from a tornado. You have kids in the freezer, and you all pause to sing "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star" to just make sure these kids knew they were OK?

JOHNSON: Yes.

BALDWIN: Oh.

JOHNSON: We were doing everything we could to keep everyone calm. And, by the end, we smelled like onions, which added...

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: That is the least of your worries, I'm thinking, just based upon some of these pictures we're seeing.

JOHNSON: Oh, yes.

BALDWIN: So, are you out of town? Are you safe? Everything OK?

JOHNSON: Yes, we made it out by 11:00 last night. And we drove down I-20 and just escaped the storms as best we could. But we found a gap in the storm system, so we made it back to Dallas last night. And I have never been so thankful to get to Dallas.

BALDWIN: I am glad you're A-OK, you and your man and hopefully every -- 48 other people in that freezer and those kids as well. That's just beautiful, what you all did. Amy Johnson, thank you so much for hopping on the phone with me.

JOHNSON: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Let's move on to our other breaking story at the moment. This is out of Florida. George Zimmerman has been shot in what police say is likely a road

rage incident. Just two years after the 31-year-old was acquitted in the shooting death of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman is reportedly suffering a minor gunshot wound.

So, let's talk about this with a man who witnessed the aftermath of the shooting. Kenneth Cornell is on the phone with me. Also with me, CNN's Martin Savidge. With me here on set in New York, I have got Joey Jackson, criminal defense attorney and HLN legal analyst, and Sunny Hostin, CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor.

So, welcome to all of you.

And, Martin, though, let me begin with you. Tell me what you know.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is coming to us from the Lake Mary Police Department.

It was about 12:45 it was reported this afternoon when George Zimmerman and another man were apparently involved in some sort of altercation. Now, the police chief there is insinuating that this had been an ongoing dispute, in other words, that these two men had had words and apparently some kind of exchange in the past.

But, today, according to -- and I think one of the witnesses you're going to talk to -- that there was a gun that was waved by the other man, and apparently -- or George Zimmerman, rather, was waving the gun. Let me get that straight.

[15:05:08]

George Zimmerman was allegedly waving a gun in traffic, and it was at that point that the other man fired. Now, the bullet went through the windshield of Zimmerman's vehicle, we are being told. However, Zimmerman was not hit directly by the bullet. He was hit by glass and perhaps other debris inside of the vehicle, minor injury.

And, in fact, we're being told now that he's actually been treated at the hospital and has been released. So that's what we know, a potentially very serious altercation here. And, of course, when you hear the phrase, "I shot George Zimmerman," as allegedly was said, you can imagine it brings back all sorts of memories -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Martin, stay with me.

I want to bring in this eyewitness. He's Kenneth Cornell.

And, Kenneth, from what I understand, you were heading into work. And someone's running up to you and shouting: "Call 911. I just shot George Zimmerman."

Can you take it from there?

KENNETH CORNELL, WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.

I was getting out of the car after lunch. And a car came pulling up and said: "Please call 911. Please call 911. I just shot George Zimmerman."

I asked him, "Don't you have a phone?"

He said: "I do not have a phone, but please call 911. I did. I just shot George Zimmerman."

So, I kind of questioned him a couple times because it was a pretty unusual statement. And he said: "Please. No, I shot George Zimmerman. Will you call 911?"

And so I called 911, got on the phone with them, and they transferred me twice to another person. And I said: "This guy here, he said he just shot George Zimmerman. Will you please bring police?"

And she said, you know, what's his license plate? So I gave it to them. And he said: "Look, they know who I am. I'm Matt Apperson. I have been involved in this. This is the third incident that we have had. It's been an ongoing dispute. And we just -- I just shot him."

BALDWIN: OK. So you witnessed the aftermath. You weren't there for the shooting.

CORNELL: Yes.

BALDWIN: But you have this man telling you that they had some kind of -- I don't know if beef is even the right word, but an ongoing issue.

Can you tell me, because I'm not quite sure, so who had the gun? It sounds like this man shot George Zimmerman. Who was armed here?

CORNELL: They both -- it sounded like they were both armed to me. When -- Matt said he saw a gun waved at him, and when the gun got waved, he then returned fire or shot at him. So, it sounded as if he saw a gun by George.

BALDWIN: So, according to this person that said to you, call 911, George Zimmerman initially had the gun, maybe waved the gun. And, by the way, this is all happening while they're -- because I'm hearing road rage incident. Were they both each in their own cars?

CORNELL: Yes, they were driving down Lake Mary Boulevard, yes, ma'am.

BALDWIN: Driving down the boulevard. This man says George Zimmerman waved his gun. He then had a gun himself and so shot toward George Zimmerman. Did he describe what the scene looked like afterwards? Did he describe any sort of injuries involving either? Did George Zimmerman, also, did he shoot back?

CORNELL: No, not at all. He didn't say any of that. He just said that he shot him, and that was basically it.

BALDWIN: OK. Kenneth, I want you to stay on the phone with me, because my lawyer friends may have some questions to you.

But I just wanted to broaden out this discussion with you two. So you're listening to all of this. And this is still all -- this has just recently happened. And so we need to flesh all of this out. But I said this before. You know, this is -- he was acquitted of second- degree murder just a couple of years ago, which was a huge, huge case, in and of itself. He's no stranger to controversy.

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Not at all.

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, but I think what's important to note is that he is now no stranger to violence and being arrested.

And I think, bear with me, but I have been doing some research since this broke. In September '13, he's arrested for domestic violence, not only guest his ex -- now ex-wife, but her father, his father-in- law. A couple of months later, he's arrested for aggravated assault with a bottle against his girlfriend and pointing a gun at her.

Then we have got in September of 2014 -- that was 2013 -- 2014, a road rage incident in which he's threatening a man. He's saying he's going to kill him and waving a gun. Then we have got, in January of this year, '15, he's arrested for aggravated assault, again against a different girlfriend. And now we have this incident.

And so I think it bears, you know, pointing out that this is a man who has claimed to be the victim over and over and over again, claimed that Trayvon Martin was the aggressor, but he's a man now, by my count, five times being the aggressor in five different incidents.

So what does that say about his character? Had we gone back and this were the sort of scenario when Trayvon Martin was killed, we would have had, I think, a very different perception of who this man seems to really be.

JACKSON: Sure.

A couple things to point out. And that's absolutely right. That's consistent with what I understand it to be.

HOSTIN: Are you going to speak like a defense attorney now?

JACKSON: But, speaking from a defense perspective...

[15:10:00]

BALDWIN: Do it, Joey.

JACKSON: ... what they're going to say is that, look, those are things that were accusations. Ultimately, he was not found to have any culpability, and so it shouldn't bear...

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: For any of them?

JACKSON: For any of them at this point. However...

(CROSSTALK)

HOSTIN: To be fair, the domestic violence arrests were -- nothing took place because his girlfriend always recanted.

JACKSON: Dropped the charge, yes.

BALDWIN: OK.

JACKSON: But that's significant because it goes to credibility. And if you don't have a witness who will step up and step forward and say, you did this, then it becomes a problem.

So, I think the defense will point out -- there will be -- with great haste that those things didn't stick and, therefore, they should not be held against him. However, on the facts here, some things I find very compelling.

The first thing, generally, you have a shooting, something happens, a person, right -- and prosecutors, right, what they do, Sunny, is they use it as consciousness of guilt when a person is fleeing, because someone will shoot. They're not looking to call 911. They're looking to get away.

The fact that the person who allegedly shot at him is looking for aid and looking for assistance, to me, does very good things for his credibility.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: ... call 911.

JACKSON: It sort of -- it would suggest or be otherwise suggestive that he felt it was justified under the circumstances.

The second thing to point out is that it goes to the issue of state of mind, state of mind. Why did he think that he needed to pull the weapon to discharge it and otherwise to fire it? And it goes to the fact that, if a gun is being flailed at you, waved at you, pointed at you, it would seemingly be a natural human reaction to pull yours.

(CROSSTALK)

HOSTIN: That you're in fear for your life...

JACKSON: That you're in fear for your life.

HOSTIN: ... especially given, again -- which is why I point out this history that we're seeing over and over and over again of aggressive violence towards other -- towards women, towards family members, towards friends, because, apparently, he knew this gentleman.

What does that say about the man who is or has become George Zimmerman?

JACKSON: Quick point. And what they will say is, defense will say, don't hold these past instances against me, but if there's some past history of dispute as between him and the individual he was engaged in this dispute here, that's certainly relevant, because this person, hey, if you were after me before again and again and again, maybe you're after me now.

BALDWIN: Right.

JACKSON: And maybe you're going to use your weapon, so I need to use mine to neutralize you. I think that's going to be important.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Joey Jackson, thank you. Sunny Hostin, I appreciate it for context.

And, Kenneth Cornell, thank you so much for calling in.

Martin Savidge, I appreciate you as well.

We will stay on that.

Next, just a short time from now, the first court appearance here for two men accused of killing those two Mississippi police officers. And right now, the families of these fallen officers are speaking about who these men were -- their emotional stories coming up.

Also, the nun featured in the movie "Dead Man Walking" takes a stand in the case of the Boston Marathon bomber. She met with Dzhokhar Tsarnaev multiple times in private. Hear what he shared with her, what she sees as feeling remorseful.

And is the leader of ISIS still in charge here? CNN has new reporting about the condition of the leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. We have that.

You're watching CNN. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:16:55]

BALDWIN: To Boston, where a star witness may be the deciding factor in whether Dzhokhar Tsarnaev lives or dies. Sister Helen Prejean, the Catholic nun and death penalty opponent made famous by the book and film "Dead Man Walking" took to the stand in that federal courthouse just a couple hours ago, making a statement that she is absolutely certain Tsarnaev is sincerely remorseful.

Sister Helen went on to talk about her five meetings with Tsarnaev behind bars and how she was shocked at how young he looked when they first met. Although she was barred from talking about her views on the death penalty in court, her views are widely known. She talked last year to CNN's Erin Burnett, along with actress Susan Sarandon, who played her in "Dead Man Walking."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SISTER HELEN PREJEAN, DEATH PENALTY OPPONENT: I have witnessed such courage of human beings walking to their deaths, and that's the heart of what it means to be human, is dignity. And everybody's worth more than the worst thing they have ever done. Some were actually very guilty of a terrible murder.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Closing arguments begin Wednesday in Boston. And then this case goes to the jury.

Let me bring in Daniel Medwed, Northeastern University law professor and author of "Prosecution Complex: America's Race to Convict and Its Impact on the Innocent."

Daniel, welcome.

DANIEL MEDWED, LAW PROFESSOR, NORTHEASTERN UNIVERSITY: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: My first question is this, from a defense strategy perspective, the notion of having this convicted terrorist, this convicted killer talking to a nun.

MEDWED: It's a wonderful thing, when you think about it. What a stroke of genius, Brooke, from the perspective of the defense to try to introduce testimony from a Catholic nun who's the country's foremost advocate against the death penalty in a death penalty trial in a town with a sizable Catholic population, pure brilliance from the perspective of the defense.

BALDWIN: In her brief time on the stand, and I mentioned this a moment ago, in conversations with Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, she believes that he is remorseful. I covered this story in Boston. And I can only imagine what some people I know -- I'm not quite sure that they would buy the remorse.

MEDWED: I think you're right. His affect on the stand, Brooke, has been less than noble.

He's not fared very well in the court of public opinion and to casual observers. So, the million-dollar -- the multimillion-dollar question here all along, is he remorseful? And it's a little late for the defense to be asserting that he was remorseful.

Now, of course, he couldn't testify because that would subject him to a withering cross-examination. So, I guess Sister Helen Prejean is the best the defense could do.

BALDWIN: And then, Daniel, explain to me -- take me inside the deliberation room, because I know, to send someone to death, it has to be unanimous, right? So what do they go through? What checks and balances do they need to discuss to ultimately decide his fate?

MEDWED: Each case is so idiosyncratic. We really don't know what the jury is going to do.

[15:20:02]

They could take a straw poll at the outset to see where they stand, or they could have a free-flowing discussion for many hours and then take a vote. So we really don't know. But you're exactly right. All it takes here is one juror to holdout, and Tsarnaev gets life without the possibility of parole. So, at this point, it's virtually impossible to read the tea leaves.

BALDWIN: So it's life or death for him.

Let me ask you something else, because, before the closing, I know the prosecution called these two witnesses to talk about this supermax prison. I have talked to folks who, you know, describe it as a living hell. He will literally be underground with barely any light ever in his lifetime.

Why would you -- why that strategy? Why have somebody testify about that existence?

MEDWED: Well, the defense here is arguing a couple different things. And one of its major arguments for those jurors who might be inclined to impose death is that life is worse, that a life sentence in the hellhole that is Florence, Colorado, is a more fitting and just punishment than the possibility of execution and the near certainty that he will become a martyr.

So it ties into this argument that the defense has been advancing: Life is more appropriate here.

BALDWIN: Daniel Medwed out of Northeastern in Boston, thank you so much.

MEDWED: Thank you so much, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, with reports that the head, chief of ISIS in Iraq, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, was wounded in a strike, got a lot of people wondering, who would take charge if Baghdadi is not the one making those crucial decisions? Brand-new information just into CNN, stand by for that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:25:48]

BALDWIN: He arguably the most wanted man in the world. He's Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the leader of ISIS and, according to an increasing number reports, now the victim of an airstrike.

The Daily Beast, U.K.-based "Guardian" among those reporting that the terror leader has been severely wounded in March bombing raid, in fact partially paralyzed and unable to walk. He's apparently still running operations. But, according to these reports, ISIS is now looking for a stand-in leader, this claim coinciding with four senior ISIS senior leaders being added to the U.S. State Department wanted list, with bounties up to $7 million on their heads.

Meantime, the U.S. says it has no information whatsoever Baghdadi has been injured.

Joining me now, someone who has first this story, Martin Chulov, Middle East correspondent for "The Guardian," from London with me right now.

Martin, welcome.

MARTIN CHULOV, "THE GUARDIAN": Good to be with you.

BALDWIN: Again, I just have to continue pressing home for our viewers CNN cannot independently confirm what you have been reporting, but you have these sources who say he absolutely was injured. Can you be specific? How was he wounded?

CHULOV: We are told by a very senior member of ISIS who I have been having regular conversations with over the last three years that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi was injured in an airstrike that killed three other people in Northwestern Iraq in mid-March.

He was immobilized. He was still functioning. He was still talking, still communicating, but he's been bedridden ever since. He's not been able to move. And there is a very real fear that he has enduring spinal damage.

BALDWIN: But he is conscious, yes?

CHULOV: He's conscious. He's functioning. He's able to communicate with his subordinates. He's convening meetings, but, as far as we can tell, he's not in direct day-to-day control of the organization.

BALDWIN: So, that's my follow-up. If he's giving some guidance, who is the leader at the moment?

CHULOV: We're hearing -- and this is not from the primary source, but it's from people within Mosul, exiled people from Mosul and Irbil and also government officials -- that Abu Ala al-Afri, who is notionally the deputy of ISIS, has stepped in, in a fill-in role.

He's one of those four people that you mentioned who has been put on the list of $7 million bounty on his head. That happened last Wednesday. And we have also learned today from inside Mosul that Abu Ala al-Afri gave a sermon at the Grand Mosque in Mosul last Friday. This was the very same mosque that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi made his only public appearance last June, when he claimed the mantle of caliph.

BALDWIN: So, if he's one of these four leaders with this bounty on his head, I'm also wondering then, if he's filling in, if you will, for Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, would he be the person -- is he's who's being groomed?

CHULOV: It's difficult to know.

I suspect that the answer is probably not. And the reason is that Baghdadi had a direct lineage back to the Prophet Mohammed. He also had a senior education in Islamic studies. Both of those things were essential in him claiming the mantle of caliph.

Al-Afri doesn't lineage to the Prophet Mohammed, nor is he -- nor is he trained in Islamic studies. He's a very capable deputy. He's been with the organization for more than a decade. He's known to be a strategist, a good logistician. And he's known to have the confidence of the organization.

My read on that is he's an ideal deputy that can fill in for a while, but he couldn't take the baton if it were passed to him.

BALDWIN: Again, the other side of this, and, Martin, that the United States, this official is telling CNN recent intelligence indicates Baghdadi is still running ISIS.

Let me take it a step further, that the U.S. has had no information Baghdadi was at a strike location in March. Separately, Pentagon spokesperson Colonel Steven Warren says the U.S. -- quote -- "has no reason to believe Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi has been injured in a coalition airstrike."

How do you respond to that?

CHULOV: We're very confident in the sourcing.

The sourcing was as close to impeccable as you can possibly have. This is someone in the upper echelons of the ISIS organization, someone who gave very precise details, some of which I can't disclose because I don't want to give up his identity.

But the sourcing was accurate, as far as we're concerned. And we certainly wouldn't have published this had we any doubts.