Return to Transcripts main page
ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT
Tom Brady Suspended For Four Games Without Pay; Police: George Zimmerman Involved in Florida Shooting; Suspects in Police Slaying Appear In Court. Aired 7-8:00p ET
Aired May 11, 2015 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:10] ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: OUTFRONT next, breaking news. Sacked. Tom Brady suspended for four games without pay for his role in deflate-gate. The Patriots fined a record $1 million. The team stripped of draft picks. Fair?
Plus, George Zimmerman back in the news. The man acquitted in the death of Trayvon Martin shot today.
And an explosive new article charging the United States covered up what really happened in the Osama Bin Laden raid. Let's go OUTFRONT.
And good evening to all. I'm Erin Burnett. We begin OUTFRONT tonight with very late-breaking news. Record breaking punishment from the NFL tonight. New England Patriots star quarterback Tom Brady is suspended for his role in deflate-gate. That's using purposely deflated footballs in the championship game. The NFL suspending Brady for four games. He will not be paid. That's nearly $2 million Brady won't get. The Patriots are going to get a record $1 million fine for the team. They are also forfeiting two future draft picks. The decision may be even more costly to Brady down the road, tarnishing his legacy as one of the game's all-time greatest players. Making this decision, the NFL pointed to two crucial things. They say Brady refused to turn over his cell phone texts and e-mails, and they say he was not in their words fully candid during the investigation.
Rachel Nichols begins our coverage on this late-breaking story OUTFRONT tonight. And Rachel, you know, people have thought that there might be a punishment. I don't think many people thought that it would be this severe across the board. A record fine against the Patriots. Four games for Tom Brady. How strong would you say this punishment is?
RACHEL NICHOLS, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR: This is definitely at the highest end of what anyone expected. No team has ever been fined this much for anything else. And we throw around the world record fine. But when you think through that, that is pretty remarkable. And Tom Brady being sat four games, $2 million of his salary, that's four games of the season. He is so of course vital to that Patriots organization. And by the way, for a guy at the end of his career, and Tom Brady definitely in the twilight phase of his NFL career, missing four games is huge for him. That is taking away what is so valuable to him, and then you look forward and say how much is this going to cost him down the road. Now Brady does have three days to appeal. The expectation is
that he will appeal. We've seen a lot of these suspensions reduced upon appeal. We've seen four games, get knocked down to two games, six games, get knocked down to four games. So, we'll have to see in Brady's case if there is any leeway here. If there isn't though Erin, here is what is spicy and interesting about all of this. When Brady comes back from the four-game suspension if it holds, it would be against the Indianapolis Colts, the team that he is accused of deflating footballs against.
BURNETT: Great irony in that. Now, there is some rate, so you know, one Hall of Famer was telling another NFL player who appeared on the show that he thought they should lose their Super Bowl title. Obviously they didn't lose their Super Bowl title, you know, there is some who might say look, this isn't harsh enough. Cheating and doing so in the way the NFL alleges, which is not just one game, but lots of games. Some people might say this isn't tough enough.
NICHOLS: I just think that was never even remotely on the table that is way on the outlandish end of things. They're not going to vacate a Super Bowl title. They didn't cheat in that game. I think that this is basically in sum for what they saw as a season or maybe multiple seasons worth of cheating in a way that, yes, it had a slight impact possibly on some of those games. But that's not what the NFL is really talking about. They wanted to draw a hard line in the sand and say cheating is cheating. And to them, even if you cheat in a way that doesn't impact a game, it's not up to the individual players to interpret the rules.
They wanted players to know cheating is cheating. And this is for the sum of this long period of time. And they also wanted people to know, you brought up the investigation. They wanted players around the league to know look, you have to cooperate when we come knocking on your door. The NFL doesn't have legal subpoena power. So they're really dancing here with how much they can force players to talk and fess up to their potential crimes. This was a message to everybody if we think you have done something, you better talk to us in full. Because the punishment for not talking to us could be as bad or worse as whatever you turn over to us.
BURNETT: All right. Rachel Nichols, thank you.
And OUTFRONT now, NFL players. Nine-year NFL veteran Coy Wire, and our sports analyst. Former Atlanta Falcons defensive end Tim Green and also joining me on the phone Ross Tucker, a former teammate of Tom Brady's, current host on Sirius XM radio.
Ross, let me start with you. Former teammate of Tom Brady's, what is your reaction to this? Are you surprised? Do you think he did it, and what do you think his reaction is tonight to four-game suspension and his team getting a record fine?
ROSS TUCKER, FORMER NFL PLAYER (on the phone): I can tell you, he is devastated. I don't think he expected this at all. He takes, you know, his integrity very seriously. And so I think this is probably a crushing blow to him. I mean, he has played, you know, 14 years and no one at this point had really ever questioned him in this way. And now with the suspension like this, this will go on his record forever. I mean, even if it's reduced a little bit upon appeal, whenever we have conversations about who the greatest quarterback is of all time, there will be a large segment of the population that will bring up not only deflate-gate, but spy-gate prior to that.
And so there is always kind of an asterisk on some of the things that Tom Brady has accomplished which I think is really unfortunate, Erin, because I do think he is the best quarterback of all time. I don't think he needed to do this, which is why it's so frustrating. I think he probably thought any little edge he could get he would go for it. But clearly, it was not worth it.
[19:05:52] BURNETT: So Coy, what is your reaction? Interesting as you hear his former teammate not saying he didn't do it, just saying he didn't think through it and probably shouldn't have done it. I mean, Tom Brady suspended for four games, no pay. That's $2 million in value. The team $1 million, a record. All in Coy, fair?
COY WIRE, NINE-YEAR NFL VETERAN: I think it's perfectly reasonable fine that was handed down. And I'm a former teammate of Ross' too. And some of the thoughts that he have resonate well with me. And you talk about Tom Brady's legacy. I see it in two different ways, Erin. I see it in his on the field legacy. I don't think that's going to be tarnished as much. People are still going to say and know this is one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time. He'll be a first ballot Hall of Famer. That is not going anywhere. However, his off the field legacy, that certainly has been tarnished. The players to whom I have spoken, to Ross' point, why did he do this? He didn't have to do this.
And the thing that jumps out to me the most, Erin, is that in his line, he threw two guys under the bus who were simply doing what they were told do. Jim McNally, John Jastremski. We found out in the report that owner Robert Kraft suspended them without pay indefinitely a week ago. They lost their jobs. They're sitting at home on the couch, maybe never able to work in the NFL again, making 30,000 a year, maybe something in that range. Tom Brady wasn't suspended at all. He got the clear and free from his own owner. Now, he will be suspended for these games. But to me, his off-the-field legacy has been tarnished that he just didn't own up to this and say, you know what? I did this. These guys were just doing simply what I told them to do -- Erin.
BURNETT: It's pretty sobering too when you put it that way. Those of course were the equipment managers who are in-charge and responsible for the balls directly, the ones who would have physically touched the balls as opposed to Tom Brady. Tim, I think though you may differ than your peers here in terms of whether you think this punishment went too far?
TIM GREEN, FORMER ATLANTA FALCONS DEFENSIVE END: Well, I agree with Coy in that I think people aren't going to think very much about this when they think of Tom Brady only because his career has been so spectacular and so heralded. I think that's what people are going to think about. I think it will be an asterisk, but it will be a small one that won't have a huge impact on him. I was surprised at the heaviness of the penalties. Especially against the team when you consider that the draft picks are similar to bounty-gate with the Saints, which is something that I found, you know, absolutely deplorable where you had players being paid to injure other players in the league.
GREEN: And, you know, look, I think on the other hand the league needs to make an example. Because Tom Brady is such a star, he is such a headliner for the game on and off the field, and I think that's why they did it. But to me, what he did isn't that terrible. I would liken it to when I played offensive lineman would put silicone or Vaseline on their jerseys to keep me from getting a good grip on their jerseys. And everyone knew you weren't supposed to do it. And if they caught you, then you know, it was one of those minor infractions. And is think that deflating the balls a little bit, even though it does break the rules and you can't do it, I'm not condoning it. All I'm saying is when you compare it to something like bounty-gate, it's not that diabolical.
BURNETT: I mean, Coy, what is your take though? Because you're look at, I mean, exactly to the opposite point of what Tim is saying. I mean, you are looking at the most well-known football player perhaps in the United States. And if not, it's arguable, right? I mean, certainly he is a household name across the country. And as such, there is in a sense a higher standard that is expected in general from the NFL.
WIRE: That's right.
BURNETT: I mean, isn't that part of this too? I mean, you've got Pete Rose, Barry Bonds have been kept out of their Hall of Fame because of their transgressions? Could this be something of equal level for Tom Brady?
WIRE: Again, I don't think that it's going to affect his on- field legacy much, Erin. I really don't think he is a first ballot Hall of Famer. It's going to be more like Alex Rodriguez. He did something to violate the integrity of the game to get it competitive advantage. And here we are talking about him just a week ago. He moved into third in the all-time home runs list with 661 home runs. And people are still talking about how great he is.
BURNETT: Yes. And nobody still to talk about it. There was no celebrating. Yes.
[19:10:16] WIRE: That's right. Exactly right. So, you know, to me, the thing is with this, and Troy said in a statement. I'll read it.
GREEN: The point with the other guy --
BURNETT: Finish, Coy, and then I'll get Ross in. GREEN: I'm sorry, you are talking about one guy who used
performance drugs. And I just look, I know it's wrong. I agree. And the he should be punished. I'm just saying.
WIRE: Tim, here is the thing, you know that football is a game of inches, Tim. If deflating a football by one percent allows Tom Brady in one game to complete one pass with more accuracy on one third down conversion, that allows them to move the chains and affect the outcome of the game, that's a big deal. It doesn't matter if it's just a slight deflation of a football, it's a rule for a reason. It allows for a competitive advantage. And that's why Tom Brady was doing it.
BURNETT: Let me just get Rachel Nichols in here. Because I know she has some news. I'm sorry, hold on one second, Tim. Because I want to get Rachel in here. Obviously of course we can never say whether this would have made the difference in winning or losing the game. People who say that it didn't are never going to know. But Rachel you have a statement I believe from Tom Brady's agent right now just reacting to this.
NICHOLS: Yes. This is from Don Yee, Tom Brady's agent. And I'm going to read it for you to make sure I get it exactly. In his words, he says, "the discipline is ridiculous and has no legitimate basis." He says, "In my opinion, the outcome was predetermined." And this is something that we heard from him a few days ago after the report was issued, Erin. He said, "There is no fairness in the wells investigation whatsoever." Tom Brady's agent says, "In fact the evidence shows Tom clearly emphasized that footballs be set within the rules." He also stresses that he feels that Tom cooperated fully with the investigation. Now, this is counter to the NFL's punishment and letter to him that they leveed today. And he said that they will appeal. There is no question about it. And he stresses that he wants that appeal to be heard by an independent source.
Now this is important now. He says an independent and completely neutral person. Roger Goodell, Erin, is the person who is supposed to hear these appeals. That is not independent in Don Yee, Tom Brady's agent's eyes. Now, Goodell can designate somebody else to hear the appeal. And we have seen in the past when he designates someone outside the NFL, the NFL's verdicts have been overturned. So it will be interesting to see. If not overturned, at least reduced in a lot of cases. In some cases overturned. So they're basically saying they will appeal. They're asking for an independent arbiter, somebody else to hear the appeal. We'll have to see if the NFL does it. It's completely at Roger Goodell's discretion whether he wants somebody outside the league to hear the appeal. It's his right the way the constitution is written for him to hear the appeal. And if he decides to do it, it would be hard to see him straying that far from the ruling that Troy Vincent issued today. But boy, Tom Brady's agent going on the offensive yet again there -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Wow. All right. Thanks very much to you, Rachel, and to all of our panel of NFL players. Pretty interesting when you look at it. A record in terms of punishment for deflate- gate. OUTFRONT next, George Zimmerman involved in a shooting today.
Nearly shot in the head. We have a live report coming up.
Plus two, police officers murdered during a routine traffic stop in a southern town. Is violence against police rising in America?
And a major investigative article charges the United States fabricated the story behind the killing of Osama bin Laden. So, the White House tonight firing back.
[19:17:23] BURNETT: George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watchman acquitted in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin involved in another shooting today. This time a bullet was fired at Zimmerman, just missed his head, according to his attorney. He can actually see, all right, we'll just show you his picture here. You can see the zoom in and what appears to be a bullet hole in the passenger side window of Zimmerman's pickup truck.
Martin Savidge is OUTFRONT.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The man at the center of controversial shooting death teenager Trayvon Martin three years ago is now the focus of another shooting investigation in Florida after a road rage incident. But police say this time George Zimmerman was on the receiving end of gunfire.
BIANCA GILLETT, LAKE MARY POLICE DEPARTMENT: An officer from Lake Mary Police Department was flagged down by George Zimmerman in his vehicle on Westlake Mary Boulevard, okay. He reported that he had just been involved in a shooting. Simultaneously, Lake Mary Police Department received a 911 call from a third party on behalf of a Matthew Apperson, a white male who stated that he had just been involved in a shooting with George Zimmerman.
REPORTER: That 911 caller says Apperson told him Zimmerman was waving a gun and that's when Apperson fired. However, Zimmerman's lawyer tells CNN a different story. He says Apperson pulled up behind Zimmerman and started flashing his lights, honking at him and screaming obscenities. Apperson fired a shot which allegedly almost hit Zimmerman's head leaving to Zimmerman suffering a minor injury from the shattered glass. His truck with a bullet hole in the window later towed from the scene. This is not the first time Zimmerman and Apperson have crossed paths. According to police, the two were involved in a previous road rage incident in September 2014.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Stopped you for speed.
SAVIDGE: And Zimmerman has had frequent run-ins with the law, ever since he was acquitted of Trayvon Martin's murder. In July 2013, just three weeks after the acquittal, police in Texas pulled Zimmerman over for speeding.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Go ahead and shut your glove compartment.
SAVIDGE: He had a gun in the vehicle, apparently legal and he was let go with a warning. In November 2013, police in Florida arrested him on aggravated assault charges after an apparent fight with his then girlfriend. She later asked for the charges to be dropped. Then in January of this year, another fight with a girlfriend. And another domestic abuse complaint. But the woman reportedly recanted and charges were never filed.
SAVIDGE: Getting back to the incident of today, authorities say that so far there have been no charges filed against anyone. Police say in Lake Mary that they will interview both George Zimmerman and Matthew Apperson, but both men is said they want their attorneys present for that. So that's taking a little time. And it should be pointed out Erin that the Lake Mary Police Department has body cams. So it's quite possible that an officer got George Zimmerman not at the moment of the shooting, but immediately after to gauge his reaction -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right, Martin, thank you very much. Martin Savidge.
And now Natalie Jackson, she was the attorney for Trayvon Martin's family. And Jose Baez, the former attorney for Casey Anthony. Obviously, a lot of experience in Florida where this happened. Natalie, let me start with you. Obviously Martin going through the whole background here, this is about three years after Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin. You represented the Martin family. When you hear this today, what do you think?
NATALIE JACKSON, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR THE TRAYVON MARTIN FAMILY: I think that it's very relevant to the protests that are going on today and the Black Lives Matter movement. I'm really seeing favoritism towards George Zimmerman. We saw the whole case that Trayvon Martin was based on who was the aggressor. And we keep seeing over and over this aggressiveness from George Zimmerman. And it just seems as though we were reminded back to what happened with Trayvon that the protests were about how the police gave Zimmerman favoritism. And here we see it over again. He has never been arrested or charged for any of these things that he has done with people.
BURNETT: All right. Jose, what do you think? Favoritism towards George Zimmerman? Is that what we're seeing?
JOSE BAEZ, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I agree with Natalie to a certain extent. I think there is -- it's a bit strange that no one has been arrested in this case. There is ample evidence to be able to make charges at this time. Especially since you already have a gunshot and evidence of that. And the statement saying that I shot George Zimmerman. So, you know, this is a very strange situation. I think it's strange because of George Zimmerman. Any other situation, charges would have been filed on either end. So the fact that this is George Zimmerman is making it a little bit more than it should. I'm a little bit perplexed by the whole lack of charging decisions so far. [19:22:04] BURNETT: And does this mean, Natalie, you think there
will be a more serious crime in the future? I mean, because you talk about multiple domestic violence cases, the charges were dropped in each of them or never filed in one case. Speeding with a gun. I mean, you have a point there is now a very long record here of incidents since the Trayvon Martin killing.
JACKSON: Well, there are records before the Trayvon Martin killing too. He had a battery on a law enforcement officer before. So when you ask about that, what is think, you know, with George Zimmerman, I do think that there will be more violence. But I think the important part here is to focus with what is going on today. And to focus on the fact that it seems as though race does matter when you're looking at who is getting arrested, who is getting convicted of these crimes. And who is facing the punishment.
BURNETT: Jose, race, is it relevant?
BAEZ: Absolutely, absolutely. You have a situation here where someone is not getting charged. If these were people of color, you would definitely see charges. Mind you, Mr. Apperson is facing under Florida law starting with 20 years in prison because of 10-20-life. So, you have a situation where -- this thing is going to play out in a big way. I believe Mr. Apperson is going to get charged. I think he'll be charged with attempted murder. And then you've got the great defense that he'll be able to mount saying this was George Zimmerman, a wild man with a gun. Look at his history. Look at all of the incidents that he has had. And it's strange, but is think Mr. Apperson is going to be the one applying the stand your ground motion based on what -- and of course we all know Mr. Zimmerman's case is the one that brought that law to the forefront.
BAEZ: So, that's going to be an issue. And then also the Marissa Alexander warning shot issue is going to come up. I see this -- I see this exploding in a very big way.
BURNETT: Wow. All right. I appreciate both of you taking the time to be with us tonight as I get started.
And next, breaking news. Four suspects in court today charged with murdering two Mississippi police officers. Are the police in America under attack?
And startling new charges that the White House covered up what really happened the night Osama bin Laden was killed. Our special report coming up.
[19:28:16] BURNETT: Breaking news. We have new information tonight about two Mississippi police officers gunned down during a traffic stop on Saturday. The four suspects made their first court appearance today. Officials also revealing new details about the events leading up to the shootings of officers Benjamin Deen and Liquori Tate.
Jason Carroll is OUTFRONT. And Jason, what are you learning tonight? I mean, this was horrific. This is a town that hadn't had a police murder in three decades. I mean, it is awful.
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is terrible. And the town is still reeling. Still no word about a motive for the shooting. It all began Saturday night around 8:30, Erin. That's when Officer Benjamin Deen stopped a gold Cadillac escalade for speeding, a routine traffic stop. He noticed several people inside the car and immediately called for backup. That's when Officer Liquori Tate arrived. Moments later, shots were fired, and both officers were dead. Dean was 34 years old. He was a member of the K-9 unit and a 2002 officer of the year. You see him right there. He leaves behind a wife and two children. Liquori was just 25-years-old, a rookie who had been on the force for less than a year. He had wanted to be a police officer ever since he was four-years-old. The mayor of Hattiesburg, Mississippi called the shootings a tragedy for the nation. This as a new FBI report shows just how deadly a police officer's job can be in this country.
CARROLL (voice-over): Two families and a community in mourning. Officers Benjamin Deen and Liquori Tate shot and killed after a routine traffic stop Saturday turned deadly in Mississippi.
YOULANDER ROSS, LIQUORI TATE'S MOTHER: If I could say or face the people who did this to my son, I would let them know you took something very valuable away from me.
CARROLL: They're not alone when it comes to grief and sorrow. A new report from the FBI shows 51 officers were killed in the line of duty last year. That's compared to 27 just a year earlier, though that was lower than average. Sobering numbers for officers across the country, many of whom are facing critics questioning their tactics. All this while many in blue are mourning.
Thousands paid their respects to Brian Moore last Friday. The 25-year-old New York City police officer shot and killed while attempting to stop a suspect carrying a gun.
BILL BRATTON, NYPD COMMISSIONER: Brian's death comes at a time of great challenge in this country, for police officers across the country. We're increasingly bearing the brunt of loud criticism.
CARROLL: Criticism and pressure, New York City Police Commissioner Bill Bratton says despite everything, he does not believe officers are being targeted.
BRATTON: A lot of those deaths are still cops doing what you asked them to do. They do traffic stops. They do domestic violence calls. And each one is always a tragedy in and of itself.
CARROLL: But some in law enforcement do believe the relationship between police and the communities they serve is more tense. Just last December, two New York officers one John Lui and Rafael Ramos shot and killed while in their patrol car, targeted by a man who set out to kill police. In Idaho, condolences for Officer Greg Moore, shot while out on patrol.
While in Pennsylvania, Byron Dickson's family still trying to heal, Eric Frein allegedly ambushed him and another trooper last September. Dickson was killed in the shooting. Frein is also accused of targeting police.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now in the current environment, they have to be concerned about their own well-being. This is not just
CARROLL (on camera): Even more so than in years past?
JOE GIACALONE, FORMER NYPD SERGEANT: Sure.
CARROLL (voice-over): Joe Giacalone is a former NYPD sergeant. He says given so much police scrutiny over controversial incidents in places like Ferguson and Baltimore, police have a tougher job now than in years past.
GIACALONE: We might not have seen an environment like this since the 1960s and the mentality of the cops are the bad guys. Now, they're kind of taking it out on the cops. Almost like emboldened criminals to fight the cops.
CARROLL: The cops seeming to feel it all across the country. Again, Erin, no motive for that shooting there in Mississippi, a very small community there, still trying to cope with what happened there -- Erin.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Jason, thank you very much.
And OUTFRONT now, retired NYPD detective Harry Houck, along with our political commentator, Marc Lamont Hill, also professor at Morehouse and host of BET News and "HuffPost Live".
Harry, you just heard Jason Carroll. It's a very sobering piece. You're talking about officers around the country, who have been shot, who have been killed in the past few months. Why?
HARRY HOUCK, RETIRED NYPD DETECTIVE: Well, I think there's a lot of bad rhetoric out there. You know, 89 shootings, 89 percent of police officers being shot from 2013 to 2014, 89 percent. What's on out there? I think it's a lot. I think -- I believe it's a regressive war on law enforcement.
When you've got -- when you got people like out there saying "hands up, don't shoot", all right, something like that happened down in Ferguson -- it never really happened. All right? That's a lie.
That lie is being perpetrated even by the Congressional Black Caucus. They come out with their "hands up, don't shoot", you know, in Ferguson, in an incident where the police officers were exonerated. And these instances, the one in Ferguson and the one in Staten
Island are being used as examples for police officer misconduct when the police officers weren't --
MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: The spike in shootings?
HOUCK: No, what I'm attributing the spike in shootings is the rhetoric out there.
BURNETT: You're saying the rhetoric is causing the spike.
HOUCK: Why did somebody come up from Baltimore to shoot two police officers instead of New York and assassinate them?
HILL: Let me respond to that. The data that you're citing is from 2013 to 2014.
HILL: The Staten Island shooting happened in late December, early January.
BURNETT: Late December.
HILL: Late December. And then the protests happened in January.
HILL: The Eric Garner protest happened in December. Baltimore happened in January of 2015.
So, all the things you're citing is what caused a spike happened after the spike.
HOUCK: No, no, no. The spike was way before that. It happened way before that.
HILL: No, no. The FBI statistic -- listen to me. The FBI statistics are from 2013 to 2014. Meaning that everything up until the end of 2014.
HILL: Most of the protests you're citing started in December of 2014.
HOUCK: Yes. I understand that.
HILL: So they're not connected. That's statistically impossible.
HOUCK: But the rhetoric has been out there. That's what I'm talking about. HILL: There hasn't been.
HOUCK: There is a lot out there. Are you kidding? We start with de Blasio becoming the mayor in New York.
HILL: I let you talk. Let me finish my point. The other piece is "hands up don't shoot" is a nonviolent movement, right?
[19:35:00] I'd be curious to know from your perspective how a nonviolent movement caused the war on police officers.
And yes, someone drove from to Baltimore to New York and shot a police officer. That was an awful tragedy, but there's absolutely no connection in that person and the "hands up don't shoot" movement. So, I think it might be unfair to characterize it.
HOUCK: It was in his mind. It was in that man's mind that he decided he had to come up and kill himself two police officers.
BURNETT: We're unfairly victimized by police. It's now our turn. There are some people who see it that way.
HILL: Well, I think the unfairly victimized part is true.
BURNETT: Are there some people who then see that as a justification to do the same thing back?
HILL: Of course. There have always been people like that.
But what I'm saying is there is no connection between these anti- police brutality movements and the spike. A year now from now, we might be able to look at that and say, we just don't have the data yet, and we're just guessing.
HOUCK: That's right. Well don't have the data. We don't get --
HILL: That's what we call --
HOUCK: But it's fairly obvious.
HILL: No, it is not. What is happening right now --
BURNETT: Marc, what do you think caused it then? What do you think caused the surge?
HOUCK: This year, we're already at the --
HILL: It's too early.
HOUCK: -- at the same number as last year for shootings of police officers.
BURNETT: OK. And that to Marc's point, I would imagine he would have to say perhaps there is a link. HILL: There might be. As the science, it would be
BURNETT: But last year, what do you think cause it last year?
HILL: It could be a few things. And I don't want to predict. Could it be tensions between community and police? Absolutely. I certainly think that's factor.
But until we look at the whole data, it would be irresponsible to make a judgment about why. I can't do that as a social scientist.
But what I will say is tensions between community and police do play a factor. Overly aggressive police tactics also play a factor. Sometimes, it can be an outlier. Sometimes over a ten-year period there will be two years where people are more violent to police.
HOUCK: And people passing lies on the street.
BURNETT: Do things like "hands up" in Ferguson, which Harry is correct, it did not happen there. But to your point, it is a nonviolent statement they're trying to make. What about the "no justice, no peace"? What about? That is even said by the prosecutor in Baltimore. But when you think --
HILL: People have been saying "no justice, no peace" for 50 years.
BURNETT: Right. When you're saying no peace, did that create negative --
HILL: Martin Luther King said no justice no peace and it didn't leave, I mean --
HILL: So, I would be uncomfortable that that's a violent statement. Justice is always a precondition of peace. If people don't get justice, they will march. They will protest. They will stop highways.
All of that is not being peaceful in the traditional sense.
HOUCK: That's peaceful protests.
BURNETT: That's peaceful, that's not --
HOUCK: That is peaceful.
HILL: I'm saying the "no justice, no peace" is what is clogging the highways. They weren't shooting police officers.
HOUCK: I define it as violence. No justice, no peace? I hear violence in that.
HILL: Which is often why the people who are marching on highways without guns were being attacked by police officers because of that mentality.
HOUCK: When did that happen?
HILL: When I was in Ferguson, it happened many times. We were tear gassed, trampled. No one had any weapons. I was there.
HOUCK: There was rioting, though.
HILL: Not in the places where I was, no.
HILL: It's not true. I'm not saying no one rioted. But that wasn't the overall case.
HILL: What I'm saying, it's too early to make connections here. And it's irresponsible I think to make the connection between a peaceful movement --
HOUCK: We have the police numbers from police officers being shot last year to this year. All right? They've already reached that number. We're not even to June yet.
HILL: It doesn't prove it had to do with it.
HOUCK: No, I'm not saying that specifically --
HILL: You said, you cited it.
HOUCK: Well, that's part of it.
HILL: There is no evidence of that.
HOUCK: When you got politicians throughout just waving their hands and making comments, just making comments about how the cops are bad, or the cops are murdering too many black men. Come on, you got Al Sharpton out there. You have Reverend Jesse Jackson out there.
HILL: You haven't seen Reverend Jesse Jackson once. You're just pulling out the traditional straw man and talking points. Name one time we heard Jesse Jackson say that.
HOUCK: Even the mayor of Baltimore, came out --
HILL: No, no.
HOUCK: Came out for Al Sharpton to come out. What is Al Sharpton there for? He caused riots in Ferguson, for crying out loud.
HILL: Caused a riot in Ferguson?
HOUCK: His rhetoric, when he went down there it started a lot of problems.
HILL: What he said, name one thing he said. You can't name one. That's why you're stuck right now.
HOUCK: No justice, no peace. I'm not stuck. The way he talks.
HOUCK: Constantly talks --
HILL: You're making things up. And when you don't have anything to say, you say Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton.
HOUCK: It's always --
BURNETT: All right. I'm going the hit pause on this. There were some families who were involved in this, Marc, who didn't want Al Sharpton there because they think he can be a negative influence.
BURNETT: That doesn't mean your whole point, but it is a fair point to make.
HOUCK: Only here in New York, Marc. Only cause trouble here in New York.
HILL: Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson.
BURNETT: I hit pause. Love having you both.
BURNETT: Thank you.
And OUTFRONT next, charges that the United States covered up the truth about Osama bin Laden's death. Did the U.S. and Pakistan work together to kill him and then lie about it? And does Kim Jong-un have a submarine capable of firing ballistic missiles? We have an exclusive interview tonight with the highest ranking official ever to defect from North Korea, OUTFRONT.
[19:43:22] BURNETT: Tonight, accusations of a cover-up, an explosive new article contradict everything we have been told about the raid when U.S. SEALs killed Osama bin Laden. Journalist Seymour Hersh charging among other things that Pakistan knew all along where Osama bin Laden was hidden for years. The White House calls the accusations baseless.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The Obama White House is not the only one to observe that the story is riddled with inaccuracies and outright falsehoods.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Now, NBC News is corroborating, though, at least part of Hersh's stories, saying the Pakistani government did know where bin Laden was hiding all along.
So, who is telling the truth?
Tom Foreman is OUTFRONT.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Osama!
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The killing of Osama bin Laden is portrayed in the movie "Zero Dark Thirty" as a super secret daring strike, echoing widespread media and government accounts.
But this new article says it's a lie. Bin Laden was a sick, aging prisoner of the Pakistanis, served up to American troops.
Author Seymour Hersh --
SEYMOUR HERSH, AUTHOR: There is no question this was an assassination from the get-go, despite what the White House says.
FOREMAN: Among contentions, the White House says bin Laden was found through exhaustive analysis of satellite images and on-the- ground intelligence which allowed them to track his courier. But Hersh claims a Pakistani source told U.S. officials precisely where the terrorists was being held.
While the White House describes a risky call for the attack by the president and even riskier mission by the SEALs when no one definitively knew bin Laden was even there.
[19:45:02] BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: A small team of Americans carried out the operation with extraordinary courage and capability.
FOREMAN: Hersh says Pakistani airspace and guards around the prisoner were cleared ahead of the advancing American team. After all, he says -- HERSH: Twenty-four, 25 guys go in to the middle of Pakistan,
take out a guy with no air coverage, no protection, no security, no trouble. Are you kidding me?
FOREMAN: Still, former SEALs on that mission have sworn they met armed resistance and had limited knowledge of what they would find inside, even as a firefight raged.
ROBERT O'NEILL, FORMER NAVY SEAL WHO SAYS HE SHOT BIN LADEN: We could be careful, you know, doing different things, going around different corners, entering different rooms.
FOREMAN: All of that and more is why former CIA deputy director Mike Morrell went on CBS to dispute the article.
MIKE MORRLL, FORMER CIA DEPUTY DIRECTOR: It's all wrong, every sentence I was reading was wrong.
FOREMAN: And the White House has issued a statement saying there are, quote, "too many inaccuracies and baseless assertions in this piece to fact check each one."
FOREMAN: Part of the problem for Hersh is that much of his reporting seems to rely on a single unnamed source. That's making it easy for his critics to knock it down. It doesn't necessarily mean it's not true. It just makes it easy to knock down.
But as it is, with so many conspiracy theories, the fact that the official Washington is saying so much of it is wrong and they won't respond to it simply makes people who want to believe in it think ah, even more evidence of a cover-up.
Nonetheless, that said, Erin, as NBC continues to dig, as we continue to dig, as other news agencies continue to look at all of these claims, we'll be able to figure out a little bit more in coming days much of it might be true and how much of it cannot be proven -- Erin.
BURNETT: There is going to be some inconsistencies.
Tom, thank you.
FOREMAN: You're welcome.
BURNETT: Congressman Mike Turner sits on the House Intelligence Committee.
And, Congressman, thank you so much for being with me tonight.
All right. When you hear these allegations, you're on the intelligence committee. What do you think?
REP. MIKE TURNER (R-OH), HOUSE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Well, you know, obviously, whenever you read a piece such as Hersh's that is substantiated by unidentified sources, I think anyone reading it automatically should be suspect.
But this afternoon, I was with General Petraeus, former CIA director, and he said Hersh's piece is just nonsense. The reality is that the United States had under a program to seek Osama bin Laden through two presidencies and a number of years and hundreds and thousands of people who were assisting with the United States to find him and to track him down and to bring him to justice. And certainly his piece should not diminish the success of that operation.
BURNETT: Right, right. And as you point out, it's based in large part on one unnamed U.S. source.
Of course, we now have NBC News tonight saying that -- obviously, they're criticizing a lot of things in the Hersh report that they say don't add up. But they're saying they have three sources now who do corroborate one important part of it, which is that the Pakistanis knew from the beginning that Osama bin Laden was hiding in Abbottabad, which may not surprise a lot of people. Even Leon Panetta had said, I always was suspicious that they knew.
But they're saying that they knew, and that one other core part of this report is true, that it was a walk-in asset, not a courier or a CIA agent. It was a walk-in Pakistani asset walked into the CIA and said the Pakistanis know, here's where he is.
That, if true, a very, very big deal that the Pakistanis knew for years and didn't tell the United States who has given them what, $31 billion in aid since 9/11?
TURNER: Well, there has always been suspicion as to what the Pakistanis knew or did not know. But the reality is that doesn't change the narrative of what the United States undertook and what was accomplished. And even if there were additional sources, or if we find additional information as to how the United States accomplished that task, it doesn't certainly diminish at all the story of the information we have as to how it was accomplished.
And I think for all of us, the most important aspect is that Osama bin Laden was brought to justice.
BURNETT: And so one of the allegations that Hersh makes, again, based in large part on this one unnamed source is that when the United States figured it out, he is saying through the walk-in asset which NBC News is also saying, the Pakistanis then cooperated. This is according to Hersh, and that they basically allowed the United States to kill Osama bin Laden.
Let me play for you again how Hersh makes that argument.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HERSH: Twenty-four, 25 guys go in to the middle of Pakistan, take out a guy with no air coverage, no protection, no security, no trouble. Are you kidding me?
(END VIDEO CLIP) BURNETT: A lot of people watching might have the same reaction.
When you take a step back, you say, yes, are you kidding me?
TURNER: You're asking the question I think is certainly meaningless as far as coming to a conclusion as to what occurred.
I think certainly anyone who looks at the situation can wonder to what extent the Pakistanis may have been aware of Osama bin Laden's location or aware of the United States' operation. But the reality is, is in the end this was a U.S. operation. We sought Osama bin Laden, and we brought him to justice. Nothing from unnamed sources or from someone speculating should diminish that story.
[19:50:02] BURNETT: All right. Well, thank you very much, Congressman Turner. I appreciate your time tonight.
TURNER: Thank you.
BURNETT: And next, is North Korea close to developing a nuclear weapon that's almost impossible to detect? You're going to hear from the highest ranking official ever to defect from North Korea. That's only OUTFRONT, next.
BURNETT: Tonight, North Korea's Kim Jong-un could arm a submarine with ballistic missiles in the next five years, South Korean officials tell CNN, this just days after Kim claimed he successfully test-fired a missile from a submarine.
But a U.S. official says the U.S. is closely looking at the possibility that North Korea photo shopped this image of the missile firing. And now, the highest ranking government official to ever defect from North Korea is speaking out in an exclusive interview here OUTFRONT. He says that Kim executed his own family members, it's an incredible story.
And Paula Hancocks has the exclusive, OUTFRONT.
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Being part of the family is not enough to save your life in North Korea. Arrested, tried and executed in less than a week, the brutal demise of Kim Jong-Un's uncle, Jang Sung-taek, shocked the world in 2013. CNN has now learned the leader's aunt, the wife of Jang, may have suffered the same fate.
This man is believed to be the highest level official to escape North Korea in years. We're hiding his identity and calling him Park to protect his friends and family back in Pyongyang. In his first ever interview, he tells us that he believes Kim Kyong Hui was poisoned on orders of her nephew Kim Jong-un.
"Kim Kyong Hui was furious after her husband's death", he says. "She disappeared from view. Guards surrounded her home, and she spent months expressing her anger."
[19:55:03] The late leader Kim Jong-il gave his sister, Kim Kyong Hui, significant power. She and her husband Jang were handpicked to guide Kim Jong-Il's son in his early years. But the young leader decided he did not want the help.
"On May 5th or 6th of last year," Park says, Kim Jong-un ordered her to be killed. Only his bodyguard unit, Unit 974, knew this. Now, senior officials also knew she was poisoned.
As for his uncle, publicly Kim Jong-un called him scum and said he was trying to overthrow the government. But Park says their issues began with the direction of the regime's economy.
"A year and a half into his reign," Park tells me, "Kim Jong-un wanted to build a ski resort and water park. Jang, the uncle, wanted to rebuild the economy first. That is where the friction began."
Park says the ski resort is effectively what signed Jang's death warrant. Jang was allegedly executed in an underground secret room, according to Park. Few knew exactly how he died. But he tells us Jang's aides were killed far more publicly.
"His close aides were executed", he says. "Not with an ordinary gun but by four barrel machine guns."
Much of what Park tells us cannot be independently confirmed. North Korea is one of the most closed and repressive societies as well.
HANCOCKS: Park paints a picture of a brutal dictator, whose actions have even shocked the North Korean elite, a young man who is willing to kill his own family members if they don't see eye to eye -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Thanks very much to you, Paula Hancocks, pretty stunning report.
We'll take a brief break. We'll be right back.
BURNETT: Thanks for joining us.
Anderson is next.