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Not Everyone Supporting Caitlyn Jenner`s Public Transformation; Behind-The-Scenes Video with Caitlyn Jenner; A Man Who Had A Sex Change Reassignment Surgery Said He Made A Huge Mistake; Saving Money and Avoiding the Dentist. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired June 2, 2015 - 21:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:12] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Backlash. Not everyone is supporting Caitlyn Jenner`s public transformation. We will hear from
someone who was man then a woman and then went back to being a man. Why he has regrets about his own transformation.
Now it all starts right here with the "Top of the Feed". We have new behind-the-scenes video of the day Caitlyn Jenner said goodbye to Bruce and
revealed the new identity to the world. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAITLYN JENNER, FORMER BRUCE JENNER: I was always worried you never wanted to look like a guy in a dress, OK? If you are going to do that, come out.
You really have to look the part. You have to look very feminine. You have to be able to -- what I call my presentation is extremely important.
When I was on hormones, living by my -- I could not go through it. I was so isolated, because there was no information. We have had such a movement
over the last ten years in understanding of these issues.
We have had the internet develop, where you can actually see other people who are going through the same struggle you are going through. You can
communicate with them, OK? And you find out that you are not alone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining me to discuss, Samantha Schacher, "Pop Trigger" on Hulu.com, Erica America, radio host and psychotherapist and Michael
Catherwood, my "Love Line" and KABC radio co-host.
Caitlyn finds support on the internet, guys. Support, she says is there for here because she does not feel alone. But, look at our Twitter feed.
I think Twitter is a dangerous place. Here you go. Here are some samples. "Bruce Jenner is a freak." "I will not call you Caitlyn." "His mama named
him Bruce. I am going to call him Bruce."
So, Sam, I hear you sighing already. Internet -- Now, I got crap for calling these people trolls. I call them trolls not because they have a
contrary opinion, because they are attacking and abusive. That is why I say trolls to them.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER" ON HULU.COM: Right. You cannot really understand it and voice that, that you are still struggling to
figure out what that means to be transgender, what that means to be transitioning.
But it is another thing to attack that person. I would call that person a troll too. I think -- thank God, this is a good story to break the
internet, as opposed to other stories that have broken the internet before.
PINSKY: Like what?
ERICA AMERICA, RADIO HOST/PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Kim Kardashian --
SCHACHER: Thank you.
AMERICA: -- oiled down, slicked down.
SCHACHER: Thank you.
AMERICA: -- naked on the cover.
AMERICA: I love you, Kim Kardashian. I love you.
SCHACHER: But here is the thing. Here is the thing --
PINSKY: Only Kardashian family can break the internet evidently.
AMERICA: Right. Right. Multiple times.
SCHACHER: At least with this, though, at least with this is with Caitlyn`s story, she is educating so many people about something that a lot of us do
not know about, which is evoking compassion and tolerance. And, it is saving lives considering just how many in the transgender community people
PINSKY: Now, well, that is a very good point, Sam. And, speaking of saving lives, Erica, you and I last night talked about the fact that there
is real risk for Caitlyn Jenner here, and people got to recognize that. I mean never mind the fact that the internet is abusive. You are abusing
someone who has gone through a major transition.
After the surgery the risk for suicide is up. The hormone therapy makes you depressed. Just the transition, itself, could be associated with
depression. You are doing this publicly. He as Bruce identified as heterosexual. He still, now is Caitlyn, she likes heterosexual females.
PINSKY: That is going to be a tall order to attract somebody. So, all these -- And in the article, she said she had suicidal thoughts back when
TMZ broke the story. So, for me, I get very upset when I see the -- I am going to call them -- they are trolls attacking in twitter, not the
contrary opinions. The people attacking the individual is not a cartoon character. It is someone who is a human being who is at high risk for
trouble right now.
PINSKY: Erica, go ahead.
AMERICA: Very well said. But that is why they usually do always say that if you are going through, go through that, you know? --
AMERICA: Transition in your life, there needs to be therapy and counseling going on.
PINSKY: She is getting that. She is getting that. But, even so it could be risky.
AMERICA: What my concern is when the hysteria kind of fades, when the "Vanity Fair" thing is kind of over and she is back in that like, you know,
little beach house by herself, how is she going to feel?
And, that is what I am worried about. So, I think the family support system is really important in addition to any kind of therapy. But thing
is something that really, she has been thinking about her entire life.
PINSKY: Of course not.
AMERICA: This is not a sleek of a little decision she made off the bat.
PINSKY: But even so, the risks go up in and after the transition period. Erica, I got to tell you something. The man sitting next to you has a
strange grin on his face. I am wondering what that is all about.
SCHACHER: She just shook. What was this? Watch out.
[21:05:00] MIKE CATHERWOOD, "LOVE LINE" RADIO CO-HOST: I evoke that reaction. My thing is that of course you are going to generate -- even if
you do not do something as groundbreaking as what Caitlyn Jenner is publicly doing in front of everybody`s eyes, you are always going to get
trolls. And, if you notice even just the people that you put up, the feed of the trolls that you got on your HLN feed.
CATHERWOOD: It is always the people who have like seven followers and they do not even put a picture of themselves. I am like, "Oh, great." So some
guy, literally anonymous person is not going to call him Caitlyn. "Oh, well."
CATHERWOOD: I mean it is not as if President Obama is like, "Flat-out not going to call you Caitlyn, buddy."
SCHACHER: It can hurt though. In numbers, it can hurt.
PINSKY: I understand, but it still hurt.
CATHERWOOD: There is no doubt that when people come out against --when people say anything about you, it is hurtful. And, you and I deal with it,
PINSKY: All the time.
CATHERWOOD: But at the same time, when I consider -- what I can only imagine is the struggle and the pain and the actual physical violence that
the transcommunity has had to deal with.
CATHERWOOD: For generations.
CATHERWOOD: A couple of guys claiming that they are not going to call you Caitlyn on Twitter were their stupid little egg logo; really, really
PINSKY: Here is Twitter. Let us get to this Twitter question. It is from Vivian. "Do you think Kris Jenner needs behavioral health support? The
man she married identified as transgender." No, I think Kris is going to be OK. But there is some stuff going on with Kris, you have noticed?
SCHACHER: Well, yes, she has spoken about this. And, she has been very supportive of the transition and Caitlyn. However, Crystal, "Vanity
Affair," her divorce from Caitlyn then Bruce was, quote, "The most passive aggressive thing I think I have ever experienced."
She goes on to say, "Why would you want to be married and have kids if this is what you wanted since you were a little boy? Why would you not explain
this all to me?"
PINSKY: Because, Erica -- well, let me just say.
PINSKY: When he was he --
AMERICA: She knew. She knew.
PINSKY: Kris knew.
AMERICA: Kris Knew. Listen, she created the Kardashian empire, from a sex tape. OK? Believe me, I love the whole thing. I am obsessed with it that
it is great and awesome. But the fact that she did not know when she said she knew he was getting hormones, which is a higher level of commitment
than just cross-dressing. I just think she did not kind of like it in. She did not really -- she maybe she had a blind eye a little bit.
PINSKY: She was blind. OK.
AMERICA: And, I think what is interesting here is the one thing that kind of might bother her, and I could be wrong, but it is just a guess is that
she did not actually masterpiece this final production, that is the biggest thing.
SCHACHER: No. No way. I disagree.
AMERICA: She is not in control of it. So, that is hard for her.
PINSKY: Her being in control has been ruled out.
AMERICA: That is what I am saying. She is a bit in control of every single thing at the Kardashians have done.
SCHACHER: That makes her so sound so heartless.
AMERICA: No, she is not heartless. I think she is a really nice woman. And, I think that she is dealing with her husband changing. But, I am
saying, if your husband was taking hormones, you are just going to be like --
PINSKY: And cross-dressing.
AMERICA: And, cross-dressing -- not, that means nothing. Where does that information go?
SCHACHER: I agree. No.
PINSKY: But -- but -- but --
SCHACHER: Hold up. Let me respond. Hold up. I agree with you, but I do not think that she is sitting back, upset that she was not able to be like
a puppet master throughout all this, in control --
AMERICA: That is secondary.
SCHACHER: No. I do not think that is the case at all. I do think anybody that is in a marriage for that long is going to have trouble accepting that
their husband is transgender.
CATHERWOOD: The truth is she is super -- she is super fuming pissed that Caitlyn is not spelling it with a "K."
CATHERWOOD: She is very upset.
(AUDIENCE LAUGHING AND APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Hold on. Hold on. I want to move this along by showing you a Twitter question from Maria. She asks, "Could Caitlyn wake up one day and
realize she is just as unhappy, depressed, miserable as Bruce was? Surgery is not a cure-all."
We brought in somebody to address this issue. And, we have other guest too. But, first up is James White via Skype. He is director of Alpha and
Omega Ministries. And, James, you have an opinion on this, yes?
JAMES WHITE, DIRECTOR OF ALPHA AND OMEGA MINISTRIES/OPPOSES TRANSITIONING: Most definitely. I am very concerned that so far we really have not heard
a meaningful moral and ethical world view brought to bear on the big issue here, which is not about television programs or reality shows. It is about
what has happened to this man and how the nation is responding to it.
And what it means as to how we view what is a man, what is a woman, does God have a role in any of this. How do you find real happiness? I do not
believe that this kind of activity, this kind of change, this introduction of surgery and chemicals to the body is going to produce any type of
happiness in the long run. And, there is a reason for that. And happiness is found in a completely different direction.
SCHACHER: No. I have a number of friends that have completed the transition and are transgender and are so much happier because they can
finally live their life as the gender that they identify with. And, it is very important that, that Caitlyn is telling this story. This is saving
lives, considering how many transgendered people commit suicide.
PINSKY: Hold it right there. We got to --
WHITE: Well, I --
PINSKY: James, hold on. James, I am sorry. James I am going to interrupt you because we have got to stop for a minute, just contain the information.
You stay with us. I am bringing other guests in. We are going to try to get a diversity of opinions going here.
Sam, I appreciate you holding your ground on that one. And later, a man who had a sex change reassignment surgery said he made a huge mistake. He
is here with us, and we are back after this.
[21:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
IAN HARVEY, COMEDIAN AND ACTOR: And, when we get to see ourselves in the media, we get to feel like we exist.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZOE TUR, TRANSGENDER REPORTER: It is very feminine. It is very sexy, and it is a statement. And, the statement is I am female.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARVEY: Some of us just need to name it. And, that is all we need to do in order to say who we are. And, then some of us need more than that in
order to be who we are. And for me, I needed partial medical transition. I needed hormones. I needed to look like this on the outside in order to
feel better on the inside.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. ELIZA BYARD, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF GLSEN (GAY, LESBIAN & STRAIGHT NETWORK): Everyone in America is learning about this facet of our great
community, that there are members of this community everywhere, not all of them as fortunate. But that they are our friends, our neighbors, our
children, our teachers, our parents.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And in line with that, Caitlyn Jenner says she is not a pioneer, but she is doing this rather publicly. I want to show you some behind-the-
scenes video from her first photo shoot. Now, people have made the point that not every transgender gets to go through this glamorous process, but
here is hers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(21:15:05) CAITLYN JENNER: There is a lot of very intelligent women. You look at some of the people, the pioneers in trying to get the message out,
Laverne Cox, Janet Mock, Geena Rocero, people like that, Carmen Carrera.
Back in the `80s, I was alone. And, I am kind of following in their footsteps. They made it easier for me. I hope with my honesty, I can make
it easier for somebody else down the line.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I see, I think this is good that we are having these conversations, that it is becoming top of mind for people. I am back with
Sam, Erica and Mike. Some though might argue it is problematic for his children or that it is selfish or there have all kinds of arguments, you
know, about his kids.
CATHERWOOD: Listen, people can say what they like, but in reality, the only people that know how traumatic or non-traumatic this is to Kendall and
Kylie are Kendall and Kylie and -- and herself.
PINSKY: His oldest son Bert says, Caitlyn is -- I am going to quote him, "Caitlyn is a much better person than Bruce."
SCHACHER: She is happy.
CATHERWOOD: And, you know, Drew, we have taken that call on both radio shows quite frequently about the concern for the children. And, my take
always is, I think a more well adjusted and more happy parent is going to be a better parent, regardless of what may be kind of going on in the
AMERICA: Yes. I read an excerpt from, you know -- from the "Vanity Fair" article, which I thought was wonderful. And, it said that, you know, I
think some of his children said he was distant at one point.
And, so, what I think is if you are not living your true personality and true being of who you are, you are going to be a little bit -- there is
going to be some space there. So thing is something that he has sole been slowly evolving too.
And, I think the older children said they have known it for quite some time. So, I think it will be harder for the younger children Kendall and
Kylie, because --
PINSKY: But, Mike, they all have a tough time already.
CATHERWOOD: Exactly. And I think that grand schema thing -- and who are - - honestly, who are we to judge at how they parent. But, from my personal point of view, putting them on a pretty much very transparent reality show
is far more traumatic than something that a parent does.
PINSKY: Hang on. I got to do this. Because Mike shut me up too well here. Speaking of transparent, in the audience tonight I have Zachary
Drucker, the co-producer of the Amazon series, "Transparent".
PINSKY: Mike, which I love that series, by the way.
SCHACHER: So good.
PINSKY: Now, Zachary -- Zachary has chosen to keep her original given name as Zachary. What do you feel about the topic we are getting into today?
You have been through this. You are representing -- I mean you and I talked about in agreement about how diverse this community actually is.
ZACKARY DRUCKER, TRANSGENDER WOMAN: Absolutely. You know, the transcommunity is a community in peril.
PINSKY: In peril?
DRUCKER: In peril.
DRUCKER: You know, violence against transpeople is staggering. The suicide rate of transpeople is 41 percent compared to I believe 4 percent
in the population.
PINSKY: But, a lot of it the suicide rate goes up after some of the surgeries. Are we treating this the wrong way?
DRUCKER: You know, I cannot really speak to post-surgery, pre-surgery suicide rates. You know, I can speak to the larger social problems, which
are things like employment discrimination. It is very hard for transpeople to gain employment.
PINSKY: You do not have trouble. You are a producer, right?
DRUCKER: I am.
PINSKY: No. But I mean, how would anybody know you are not a woman?
DRUCKER: I am really fortunate. I come from a really supportive family. A family that always told me that I could be whomever I wanted to be and to
be proud of who I was, which is one of the reasons why I chose not to change my name. I thought, you know, I could disappear really easily into
society. But to be an out transperson is sort of more of a revolutionary act.
PINSKY: And that used to be the way to do it. I spoke to Renee Richards, who is one of the first sort of public transgendered individuals.
Remember, she was a tennis player.
CATHERWOOD: Tennis player -- yes.
PINSKY: It was the issue of being a tennis pro that really brought it ought all to the floor. She was saying back in the day they had to fade
into the woodwork. I want to bring James White back. Again, the director of Alpha/Omega Ministries via Skype.
James, you heard what we have been talking about here. You know, we are all trying to do what is good for people, right? None of us wants to harm
anybody. But you still feel this approach of trying to help people transition is incorrect approach?
WHITE: Well, Dr. Drew, you yourself brought up the statistics. And, you are correct about those statistics in regards to the results of this kind
of radical introduction of drugs and surgery. But, what we are hearing here is a fundamental clash of world views. And, that is not really what
we have gotten into a discussion of yet.
PINSKY: What is the clash?
WHITE: And, we have to ask the question. What if Jesus was right when he said, "Have you not read from the beginning, that God made them male and
female?" What if there is something really good --
PINSKY: James, I got to interrupt you. I have to interrupt you because I have patients who have something called an ovotestis. One thing together.
They are hermaphrodites. I have patients that are mosaic hermaphrodites. I have people with ambiguous genitalia? What do I do with them? They are
not perfect. They are messy.
CATHERWOOD: I barely have a penis.
PINSKY: Go ahead, James.
[21:20:00] WHITE: -- We are attempting to address an entire cultural issue on the basis of -- well, you know the percentages of what you just
mentioned. And that is not the situation that we are talking about here.
PINSKY: Well, but -- no, but I mean the argue that God creates perfection is a faulty argument, is not it?
CATHERWOOD: And, also Mr. White, I mean the idea of transgendered individuals and androgyny, they expect far greater -- far longer than Jesus
Christ himself. I mean there has been people in human civilization bending gender and actually changing their gender through crude science far before
Jesus was born.
I mean do not get me wrong. I am fully respectful of your religious beliefs. But your religious beliefs do not necessarily apply to something
that humanity has been doing since before the bible was even conceived.
AMERICA: But he is saying --
WHITE: But the point of course is --
PINSKY: Go ahead, James.
WHITE: -- this is a world view issue. This is a world view issue. And, we are going to have to decide what our ultimate authorities are. I am not
sure who you are referring to. But, the Jesus I am referring to rose from the dead. I think that gives him a little bit of extra --
SCHACHER: Oh my God.
WHITE: -- authority to address this particular issue.
PINSKY: From right here, I got to go to our audience. There is a question. Please, go right ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIECE: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: I am very curious as to your opinion. What makes somebody wait such a long time before they acknowledge their desire
to be the opposite sex?
PINSKY: I will address that -- I believe have to take a break. I will answer that question. I will also introduce you to someone, a male, who
had a sex reassignment surgery to become a female and then he went back to being a male. He feels it was mistake. We will have James here. We have
Zachary here. We have our panel. And, we are going to keep going on this after this.
[21:25:42] DIANE SAWYER, ABC`S ANCHOR: Are you a woman?
BRUCE JENNER, TRANSITIONED TO CAITLYN JENNER: Uhm, yes, for all intents and purposes, I am a woman. I was not genetically born that way. As of
now, I have all the male parts and all that kind of stuff. So, in a lot of ways, we are different, OK. But we still identify as female.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Of course, that was from Bruce Jenner`s interview on ABC with Diane Sawyer. And, we are discussing Caitlyn Jenner and whether she may
possibly have regrets after having had multiple surgeries and identified as a female.
I am going to answer that question about why Bruce waited so long to identify as Caitlyn. And, I talked to a number of physicians and surgeons
who deal with this situation, who tell me that this is very common. And, they do not know if it is going to be a trend, that is just generally what
happens, it takes five decades for somebody to come to terms with this.
But they speculate rather is that it is more a function of people becoming more accepting of it now, and the people like Bruce have been thinking
about this their entire life. And, now that there is an opportunity, things are more open about this, they can come forward and really complete
this transition, and that is your sense --
SCHACHER: I agree with you 100 percent. And, I really take issue with what James was saying, for instance, because I have a number -- I am a
religious person myself. I should say more spiritual. But I am surrounded with a lot of religious people. And, I feel like his views using
Christianity as his crutch and Jesus Christ is --
PINSKY: It is a secular society, after all.
SCHACHER: But there are so many Christians out there that are accepting and loving and supporting this. So, I do not want him, James, to be using
religion, because it is giving religious people a bad name.
PINSKY: James is smiling. But, James, stand by. Of course I got Sam, Erica, Mike here. I want to bring somebody else in via Skype, Walt Heyer.
He is the gentleman who had the gender reassignment surgery, regretted it eight years later, had more surgery to reverse the procedure.
He is the author of the book "Paper Genders." Walt, of course we are fascinated by your story, and I am fascinated medically how those
procedures were done, but God bless you. Do you consider the situation -- I understand you consider the situation with Caitlyn to be somewhat
WALT HEYER, REGRETS SEX CHANGE SURGERY: Well, I think it has the potential to be dangerous for sure. I think one of the things is that the tremendous
amount of media and exposure to someone at this point in a transition with all of the pressure and all of the things going on.
Certainly, this is the key time in a transgender`s life and certainly is exciting. But, I worry about the time when the lights go off and the shows
go off, and all of a sudden, you know, nobody is around.
PINSKY: You are there with your private -- we say you are there with your private thoughts. Now, Walt, you felt you needed to get the surgery. Why
did you get it if after all you did not really need it?
HEYER: Well, you know, I started as a child transgender at the age of 4 or 5. And I began cross-dressing and did that throughout my life. I did get
married like Bruce and had two children, had a fairly normal family. But, I was still struggling with gender identity issues. I had this tremendous
desire to change genders that just continued to build and build over the years.
PINSKY: And then why did it remit after you had the surgery?
HEYER: Remit? Well, you know, when I had the surgery, I was excited. I was -- people came up to me and said you could never been happier. And, I
was doing well. I mean, I was successful, and I lived successfully for eight years.
PINSKY: As a woman.
HEYER: I enjoyed -- as a woman. I enjoyed it.
PINSKY: Well, what went wrong?
HEYER: Well, after about eight years, and I started studying psychology, because I wanted to become a counselor and help people, I started to
realize that there is a lot of other things that had not been talked about regarding transgenders.
And, I learned that many transgenders suffer from what we call comorbid disorders. They are secondary disorders that are not diagnosed prior to
surgery such as separation anxiety, dissociative disorders, bipolar disorders.
PINSKY: I would argue. Erica, I think you would say the same thing, which is that that is well-known to be the case, but that does not typically
change the gender issues.
[21:30:05] AMERICA: Well, no, I kind of agree with you. What is his name? I am sorry?
PINSKY: His name is Walt.
AMERICA: Walt. OK. I agree with you in that. I think that is why I say it is so important to get, you know, therapy and to really know that it is
something that you want to do because you could be -- you know, transgender and want to change sexes, or there could be a mental illness.
PINSKY: But, even when they are -- but listen --
AMERICA: And he is saying that when researching it, he recognized that there were other things --
PINSKY: No. No, wait.
AMERICA: And, it was not the transgender things.
PINSKY: Yes, but hold on. My experience has been - Walt, straight me out on this -- my experience has been that even when you treat the associated -
- the comorbid disorders, the gender issues remain. So, I am serious why they suddenly remitted or reversed in your case, even when you were living
happily as a woman. That is confusing to me.
HEYER: Well, because a lot of times if the disorder is treated properly, the desire to change genders will not be there.
PINSKY: But not typically, though, right?
HEYER: Well, you know, the thing about it is -- you know, there is not real good data to say typically one way or the other. We do know, and I
know from my website that gets 30,000 hits a month, that people write me all the time and acknowledge that they were suffering from a disorder that
started in their childhood that was never addressed prior to surgery. And, they themselves decided to transition back like I did.
PINSKY: OK. Hold on a second. We have a commentary from Zachary, who has been through this and is connected with the community. How do you respond
to all this?
DRUCKER: You know, I think that the conversation that we are having about surgery is actually really regressive and old.
DRUCKER: We have moved way beyond that and --
PINSKY: Meaning what? Why? --
DRUCKER: You know, it is necessarily something that is rooted is in --
PINSKY: Hold on. Zachary, hold on. We are moving so fast through very confusing material.
PINSKY: I want to make sure people get their head around this. So, what do you mean with this is regressive.
DRUCKER: I mean -- OK. Well, I think that, you know, we have moved beyond the conversation about surgery.
DRUCKER: And, you know, whether we have surgeries or not, that is not the problem. The problem is that society that has no place for people who are
not living in their assigned gender -- right, which it is a culture steeped in misogyny, basically.
PINSKY: Well, that is for sure.
DRUCKER: This is extension of feminism. It is a feminist issue. Gender equality is equality for everyone. OK? So, you know, talking about
treating transbodies --
PINSKY: Go ahead.
DRUCKER: Thank you.
PINSKY: Go ahead. Treating transbodies. Finish your thought.
DRUCKER: You know, the medicalization of transbodies is actually, you know, systemic of a culture that is, you know, steeped in patriarchy and
PINSKY: Are you confused, Mike? I am a little confused. Erica?
CATHERWOOD: Yes, I do, but I do -- I see where Zachary is coming from. But at the same time, you know, what he is saying, he personally felt that
he wanted to transition back. I just think that are not you happy that there is a world that exists that you were able to transition both ways
PINSKY: And live happily both ways.
CATHERWOOD: Yes. I mean I am very happy that you were able to live happily as a woman and happily as a man.
PINSKY: And get the trauma treated.
CATHERWOOD: Right. Regardless of what the underlying trauma might be and for some people, I think the fact that we are looking to create a world
hopefully where someone could do such. You know? I mean --
AMERICA: Exactly. Exactly, Mike, where everything is OK. And, your story is great. But I do not think you should be going around saying, "Well,
every person should go back." It is not like that. I think it is like every story --
SCHACHER: Why do people have an opinion about how someone wants to live their life and how they identify, period? It is crazy.
PINSKY: And, on top of it, there are so many layers of this. I got to tell you, I hope people at home are getting -- this is the best
conversation about this I have seen on television. And, I hope it is digestible on television, because it is complicated.
In addition to what each of the three you said we have Zachary over there talking about the sociological issues, which is just another layer to this.
You are saying that is primary. We are talking about the psychological. There is many, many different factors here.
It is complicated. Ultimately, I agree with Sam that the fact that people have the opportunity to live their life in a free society as they choose is
a great blessing. We will answer more about this, about Caitlyn, about transitioning, after this.
[21:38:20] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: He was American Olympian, formerly known as Bruce Jenner.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KIM KARDASHIAN, BRUCE JENNER`S STEPDAUGHTER: It was almost a relief that it came out, and he was so honest and people were so accepting. I think he
is just so happy that people really do accept him so much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KIMBERLY REED, TRANSGENDER FILMMAKE: When you go from being somebody who has secrets, that has this big mystery about yourself that you do not want
anybody to find out, it is enormously liberating to just say, "You know what, this is who I am."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFED MALE SPEAKER: She looks so free and happy and to be honest I have not ever seen previously Bruce, but now Caitlyn, look so comfortable
in her own skin. I think that is really what she is trying to put out here, right? Is that, "Listen, there are no more secrets she says."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. We are talking about Caitlyn Jenner. And, the question the core of our conversation is, this is this a cautionary tale?
Is this a cause for concern or a cause for celebration? Back with Sam, Erica, and Mike. And, James is out there on Skype. He wanted to ring in
on our conversation. I will go right out to him. James, what was it you wanted to tell me?
WHITE: Well, I am really concerned that I do not hear any discussion of the world view issues that should give the foundation for any meaningful
discussion of the subject. If we do not discuss the world view that gives rise to our decisions, then all we are doing is giving our own personal
opinions. That is not how you deal with societal issues.
WHITE: Those issues are not being addressed.
CATHERWOOD: But, I am not sure that this is a societal issue. This is a Caitlyn Jenner issue.
AMERICA: It is a personal issue. You can do what you want to your body. You can do whatever.
WHITE: It very clearly is a societal issue. Let us be honest about this.
AMERICA: I feel like I hear some fear in your voice. I am just saying. I feel there is fear that it is --
[21:40:00] AMERICA: Oh, I thought that was you laughing, I am sorry.
WHITE: There is no fear. I have had my world view identified as a crutch. I could had it identified as hateful. The reality is Jesus is my -- he is
the Lord of all.
AMERICAN: But if people start doing this, it becomes more common and accepted, is that going to mean that the Christianity belief that you have
are not valid? I think you can believe those --
WHITE: Not in any way, shape, or form. And, that gets us back to the world view issue. It does not matter what society says. The issue is if
God has made us in a certain way and we go against the way he has made us, the result is not going to be life and flourishing, it is going to be
destruction and death.
SCHACHER: But, James -- but James, let me ring in here really quickly. But, James -- hold on, James, James, James. Does not God also teach to be
loving and accepting? While you are condemning this community, you are condemning this community.
PINSKY: And, by the way -- because I do everything against nature by pushing back disease and keeping people alive longer. We do all kinds of
CATHERWOOD: Removing tumors.
PINSKY: Removing tumors and things that God have created.
WHITE: What does that have to do with what I have said? I am confused. I did not say anything about that at all. What I was talking about was God`s
creative purpose in men and women, and that is how they come to know the fullness of happiness is when they follow what God has created them to be.
AMERICA: But it is for each person to decide if there is a God or not. I mean I am a spiritual person. I am not saying that. But why are you
saying that God is this and that and we have to do it according to that? --
WHITE: Well, because --
AMERICA: Every person has the right to believe what they want to believe.
WHITE: Well, because I was asked to give a Christian perspective, and Christians believe that God has in fact spoken --
AMERICA: So, that means that you will not become transgender.
PINSKY: That is right. But, here is the deal--
SCHACHER: Wait a second, I am Christian, and I do not believe that.
PINSKY: Here is the deal. Let me play host for a second. Host, hang on. Host here. Host. I want James to give his opinion. I know a lot of
people feel like James does. And, I think to leave James out this conversation is a huge mistake.
Now, we are not going to agree with James necessarily, but there are people that do. He wanted to state his opinion. I want him to have the
opportunity to do so. You have a question as well.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: Yes. Hi, dr. Drew. I know that it is a great thing now that mental disorders are out in the open. We can speak
about them. They are accepted. Whether you have OCD, bipolar, depression, anything like, that you have a chemical imbalance.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: I respect that. It is a huge issue. Is this something that, you know, could be some sort of mental disorder in the
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: Yes.
PINSKY: OK. It is actually gone the other way. It used to be -- we used to call it gender identity disorder and then it is still gender dysphoria.
And, it has been less pathologized, just the way being gay was less pathologized.
PINSKY: If that was a pathology at one fact. I want Zackary a chance to answer that question.
DRUCKER: You know, I do not think that being trans is a mental disorder by any means.
PINSKY: It is associated, though. This comorbid disorders at a higher incidence. Right?
AMERICA: Right. Could not there be someone who has issues that goes to that lifestyle but maybe it is not really for them? I am saying for you
and for Caitlyn, it is innate, it is real. But you do think --
DRUCKER: Look. The story is always changing?
DRUCKER: Things mean different things to you at different times in your life. So, you know, we are evolving. That is why we are humans. We are
always changing from one moment to the next. You know, contingent on our environment, on the people that we are around. We are always different.
We are always evolving. We are always moving forward.
PINSKY: And Walt is a good person to go to address that very issue. Walt, how do you respond to what James was saying?
HEYER: Well, I think it is important to understand that when we are -- somebody goes through a transition, they are dealing with so many different
things. And, I cannot -- I can only tell you that I am here to show the audience and the people in this discussion that some people get
misdiagnosed and should not have the surgery because it is not always successful.
And, so this is important I think for people to understand and not get motivated too much by Bruce`s situation and think well, it is going to be
good for them because it was good for Bruce. But, I know long-term five, six, seven, or ten years out, people do sometimes regret having the
PINSKY: Fine. OK. Now, Zoe Tur -- thank you, Walt. Zoe Tur, a well- known transgender reporter has been critical of how Caitlyn has come out. Here is what she said last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZOE TUR, TRANSGENDER REPORTER: This is not somebody that is going at their pace. This is a highly professional roll-out of a product. And, it is all
timed. It was timed -- the ABC interview was timed for sweeps.
And, now we got a reality show coming up. And, this is to draw viewers in. For anyone to say that this is a transgendered person moving at their pace
is absurd. One has to wonder what Jenner is truly thinking.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And Sam, this is where we started this conversation, did not we? Erica, you guys were talking about the roll-out and what Kris` involvement
were, is he OK with this? Is she OK with this?
SCHACHER: Caitlyn also has taken decades to finely come to this decision. So, you can imagine -- sure, that -- and she even attempted in the `80s.
So of course now it is going to be this fast roll-out process. Because she has been waiting her whole life to be the person she identifies as.
[21:45:05] PINSKY: I say one thing. One thing. And, that is thank you, Caitlyn for doing this publicly, so we can continue this conversation, have
this conversation. It is an important conversation.
Thank you, Zackary, Walt, James, panel, participants here in the audience, who have given us a chance to really try to dig into this. It is
complicated. It is not going away. It affects many areas of many different issues. We will keep the conversation going.
But, we are going to change gears and go to "Click Fix." I got a woman who thinks she is saving money by -- and avoiding a trip to the dentist by
supergluing her teeth to her jaw -- Oh my God. We are back after this.
[21:49:55] PINSKY: Time now for "Click Fix," where the panel tells me what is trending on their Facebook, Twitter or Instagram feeds. I am back with
Sam, Erica, Mike. Sam, you are first.
SCHACHER: OK. So, I saw this story on Facebook. And, we all --
PINSKY: It is wild.
SCHACHER: It is a crazy story. We all love the superglue. We all use it. But yes, not for your teeth.
PINSKY: Oh, no.
SCHACHER: So, this is a 48-year-old woman from the UK who is terrified of a dentist.
CATHERWOOD: She is British! [ laughter ]
PINSKY: Stop it! Oh my God.
SCHACHER: I should have given a warning. I should have given a warning. And, she has been terrified of the dentist for years.
PINSKY: She glued her teeth together?
SCHACHER: Yes. Because her mother was diagnosed with cancer by going to the dentist, when they were pulling her mom`s tooth. Her mom later died.
She has always associated that. So, she has not gone to the dentist in ten years. She has been super gluing her teeth that have fallen out back in
there. And, that now they have been repaired. Her teeth have been repaired.
PINSKY: Spitting teeth out.
AMERICA: Oh my God! That is a financial issue.
CATHERWOOD: I have dreamt that Sam spitting something else out.
PINSKY: Stop it. Mike, what have you got? Mike what do you got? Mike, Mike, Mike. We had an important conversation tonight.
AMERICA: Serious topic.
CATHERWOOD: My story is about my favorite thing, which is penis and man butt. You know Hooters, the restaurant Hooters, down in Dallas they now
have a restaurant called Tallywackers, which is the same thing, but it is for guys. They wear little short shorts. There you go -- Look at the tank
tops and the short shorts. Mostly a gay male clientele, shocking.
SCHACHER: Yes, because I would feel like if it is for women -- if you want to turn a woman on, you would have those waiters wear like business suits
and flaunt their perfect credit score.
PINSKY: For women. The men have to have an occupation. They have to be firemen. For men, the occupation -- if they go to a strip club, it is
stripper the occupation. Go ahead, Erica.
AMERICA: Yes. So, my story is about major failures in airport security. So, Homeland Security basically, they posed as passengers and had things
like dummy bombs and weapons. Well, get this. There was a 95 percent failure rate. So, 67 times out of 70 times, the bombs went through. So
CATHERWOOD: Is that all?
AMERICA: Yes. So, like I had to fly here today. So, that makes me that scary. You know, you spent so much time --
PINSKY: What are you flying home?
PINSKY: Will they have corrected things by then?
AMERICA: I do not know. I do not know. But the TSA head has been demoted. But, it is just really scary to think that there is that much,
you know, going on.
PINSKY: Not only that. All this money and energy spent on screening yet it does nothing?
SCHACHER: Yes. I mean Ben Stiller said the word "Bomb" and he got arrested. Remember that? And, now --
PINSKY: He did?
SCHACHER: Well, in the movie, Dr. Drew. Come on!
PINSKY: OK. Hypothetically. All right, we got to go. I do not mean to suggest Tallywackers as a strip club, by the way.
CATHEWOOD: Well -- I wish.
PINSKY: It is Hooters for --
CATHERWOOD: Hooters is for ladies.
CATHERWOOD: Well, and gay men.
AMERICA: I think it is for men. I think it is for gay men.
PINSKY: I am going to be back right after this.
[21:56:54] PINSKY: Time now for what we call Dr. Drew`s Qs. It is your chance to ask me a question on any topic. This is a live, live, live show.
And, we have been feeding into all kinds of territory tonight. You can also tweet your questions to me @DrDrewHLN, using the #DrDrewsQs.
Starting with Lauren on Twitter, who says, "I am dating a man with extreme cheating fantasies and expects me to act on them. How can I rectify this
situation?" You are actually asking a question that is not benign. That has the potency to go towards interpersonal abuse and interpersonal
He is not respecting boundaries. He is trying to control you. Men that are controlling, that can become a very problematic situation. So, it is a
question of is he just having passing fantasies?
And, by the way, men or women that have too many questions about cheating, are they themselves trying to control the cheating impulse? But, if they
are getting really controlling and it is getting abusive, please get help with that that can go very, very bad. Audience? Yes, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: Last Christmas I had a very bad foot sprain. I was off my feet for like three months. During that time, I actually felt
I was very inactive. I was just in a chair the whole time. My libido went up.
PINSKY: Went up?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: Went up.
PINSKY: Were you doing something like looking at porn or something?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: I do not know.
PINSKY: I am just saying, if you were bored. Idle mind is the devil`s playground, I am just saying.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: I guess so. But, actually, when my foot got better and I got more active and exercising, it went right back to normal.
PINSKY: Were you taking painkillers or anything during that time?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: Nothing.
PINSKY: Nothing else. I do not have an explanation for that. It is usually -- because usually, it is the other way around. Usually
testosterone goes up. Libido goes up with exercise, particularly heavyweight lifting. So, I do not have a good explanation for that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: I stumped Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: You did stump me. We have to study you to figure this one out, but thank you for the question. I do not really have an answer for that.
You always asked me has anyone ever stumped me in, he just did. It happens all the time.
Jessica asked my pap smear just came back abnormal. I have tested positive for HPV. I am freaking out. Do I have cervical cancer? No. Not
necessarily at all. People can have transient changes. Here is what -- Young people have HPV that goes away spontaneously.
This should motive you to make sure you get the HPV vaccine, so you do not have to worry about the HPVs that cause cancer. Everybody, men and women,
get the damn HPV vaccine. It prevents cancer. Yes, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: When I was in college studying biochemistry, they painted marijuana as such an evil drug.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: And, now it seems like they are praising it like it just got this great advantages. Would you say it has more
advantages than disadvantages?
PINSKY: I do not like any drugs for humans, right? If you do not have to take them. I am saying that I do not like the idea of saying there is a
good drug and bad drug. That whole notion is really faulty for me.
For instance, people say alcohol is a good drug. It is legal. Well, no. If you want to impact on potential for cancer and disease and ruining
people`s lives, nothing is worse than alcohol. Nicotine is right behind it or maybe even ahead of it.
Cannabis has some problems for some people. Some benefits for others. Just the individual, the chemical and the relationship with that chemical
in that individual circumstance is not good or bad unless it is for that individual bad. Got it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: Yes.
PINSKY: It is a hard thing to explain. DVR us, everybody, then you can watch us any time. I really do appreciate you staying with us during -- it
is a live show. And, this conversation was quite intense, quite interesting tonight. Thank you for watching. We will see you next time.
[22:00:00] (AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)