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Leaders View Boston Shooting Tape; ISIS Terrorists Killed; Woman Mauled by Lion. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired June 3, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[14:00:15] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you for joining me here.

We have major developments in a story that brings together two of the biggest story lines of this year, terrorism and police shootings. The dragnet widens in a terror case that has left one suspect dead in Boston. Sources say two others are also somehow involved.

One of them, this man here. This is David Wright. He's about to be in federal court any minute now. We may also learn at that hearing how all three are connected and more specifically how Wright, arrested Tuesday, knew the man killed at this scene early Tuesday morning near this bus stop.

His brother says police shot 26-year-old Usaama Rahim in the back. But, moments ago, leaders in the black, in the Muslim communities here in Boston, seem to back much of the version of events that we've been hearing from law enforcement here. The police commissioner says Rahim came at officers with a large military-style knife. A Boston officer and an FBI agent fired, ultimately killing Rahim. And in a show of police transparency, authorities showed this video of this confrontation to leaders in Boston's black and Muslim communities just within this past hour.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ABDULLAH FAROOQ, IMAM IN BOSTON AREA: We do see a very vague video that is not clear as to what transpired. And we see what - it wasn't at a bus stop. He wasn't shot in the back. And there's no detail enough clear on the video to tell us exactly what happened. However, he was approaching them. They did back up.

DARNELL WILLIAMS, URBAN LEAGUE OF EASTERN MASSACHUSETTS: What the video does reveal to us very clearly is that the individual was not on the cell phone. The individual was not shot in the back. And that the information that was reported by others that that was the case is inaccurate.

REV. MARK SCOTT, AZUSA CHURCH: There is video. We did see it. It certainly makes it clear that the gentleman was not shot in the back. That he was shot in the front.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: I have CNN's Deborah Feyerick. She joins me now. We're also going to speak with someone who just saw this video.

But, Deborah, first to you. I mean, a lot of moving parts. You're talking to your sources. What is the latest that we know as of this moment?

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: OK, so the latest we know is this, that this was a plot involving violent extremists, most likely homegrown because they're here in the United States. There were two, if not three, people who were involved, including the dead man. The nature of the plot still being pieced together but it does appear from two sources that this was a plot against law enforcement.

Now, you're looking at the knife right there. There's been a lot of talk, Brooke, about this knife. Some are saying, well, it was a possible beheading. But the sources that we are speaking to, one specifically, a federal law enforcement official, telling us that, no, this was not a beheading plot. We're also hearing that from police officers there in Boston saying the same thing. It was not a beheading plot.

Is it outside the realm of speculation? No, because this is ISIS' M.O. This is how they operate. But, however, the evidence against that man that you showed, David Wright, will have no evidence suggesting that this was a beheading plot.

And so - so, again, right now we're getting a little ahead of the story, but this is all being pieced together, but right now that's what it's looking like.

BALDWIN: So then who would this third suspect be who apparently lives in Rhode Island?

FEYERICK: Right. And this is a man, Pamela Brown confirmed through two federal law enforcement officials, that he's in Rhode Island. He's connected to the two Boston men, more so than just sort of an online connection through social media. That, in fact, there may have been other engagement. And so authorities are looking at that now. Really, once this man was shot, Usaama Rahim, they, as you say, threw a big dragnet to see who else he was in communication with and to see where this plot and what the nature of the plot was. So they're really doing a lot of digging right now.

BALDWIN: OK. Deborah Feyerick, thank you so much.

I want to move on to my next guest because the Joint Terrorism Task Force had put Usaama Rahim under 24-hour surveillance. We've learned that. We also know police radio traffic indicates authorities knew something could happen. Trying to speak with Rahim, trying to question him, who investigators believe was radicalized by ISIS.

Want to play something for you. This is the conversation between an officer and dispatch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OFFICER: Can you have those units know to be aware that if they can just stay just short of the Burger King and keep an eye on those - the bus stop that's right in front of the CVS sign. If our subject is making his way here now, we're going to take him right at that spot, when we need them to come up for back up. It'll be a plain clothes unit about four of us taking a black make right in front of that bus stop.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: With me now, Yusuf Vali, the executive director of the Islamic Society of Boston Cultural Center.

Mr. Vali, thank you so much for joining me.

I know you were a part of this group that was just shown this surveillance tape. Can you just tell me what you saw?

[14:05:03] YUSUF VALI, EXEC. DIR., ISLAMIC SOCIETY OF BOSTON CULTURAL CENTER: Thank you for having me on the show, Brooke.

First of all, I just want to thank the commissioner, head of the FBI here, Vince Lisi, the U.S. attorney's office for really bringing black and Muslim clergy together. You know, transparency is really the core - the cornerstone of this process and I think today was a terrific step.

So here's what we saw. Number one, it was not at a bus stop. Number two, the -- Mr. Rahim was advancing at one point towards the officer. And, number three, he was not shot in the back. The video is from a distance, and so everything else is fairly inconclusive.

BALDWIN: Could you see the weapon? Could you see him holding this - this, as authorities describe, this large military-style knife approaching law enforcement?

VALI: You know, myself, unfortunately, because the video is from quite a distance, I could not see it and most of - most of the leaders in the room could not see that.

BALDWIN: Yusuf, just listening to some of the leaders who had walked out and were speaking to members of the media about what they saw, they still said they had a lot of questions in the wake of the video. So what would be your top question or two, and as part of that, did it appear to be, in just your opinion, a justifiable use of force?

VALI: You know, because so much of the video was still inconclusive, you know, it's hard to absolutely answer that question. Again, what I can just reiterate is what I learned, which was he was not shot in the back, he was not at the bus stop, and then, lastly, at one point he was advancing the police officers.

BALDWIN: As we pointed out, we had learned that this Joint Terrorism Task Force had been following him and potentially the other two here as well, you know, 24 hours a day for the last two years. And one of the big questions, obviously, is, well, what did it take for law enforcement, for JTTF, to go from watching him, surveying him, to approaching him yesterday morning, wanting to specifically question him? Did police at all connect those dots for you all?

VALI: Because - what the police said, and particularly the FBI, because the FBI is leading that piece of it, said was that because the investigation is ongoing, unfortunately none of those questions can be answered at this particular time. Again, their goal was to take a first really good step towards transparency and show us the video that they had. And that's really all that we saw.

BALDWIN: You know, everything your -

VALI: (INAUDIBLE).

BALDWIN: I understand it's an active investigation so understandable. Again, Yusuf, we know that the brother here, Rahim's brother, is an imam in Boston and he has been very public about how he believes, which clearly disputes, you know, police and FBI's version and what you - your own eyes saw, that, you know, his brother was shot in the back and that he was on the phone talking to his father and that it was all at a bus stop. My question to you and to the other community interfaith leaders is, how will you go about communicating with your communities what you saw with your own eyes?

VALI: You know, as faith leaders, it's our responsibility to share the truth and share what we saw. And so exactly what I've shared today with you, Brooke, is what we're going to share with the community.

Like I said, there's those three facts are clear but there's still - there's - everything else was inconclusive. So we're just going to share what we saw. And I think what was beautiful about today was, you know, here in Boston, we work together, we stand together, and commissioner showed that kind of leadership and, you know, that's what the clergy here are showing as well. And so I think if we continue doing that and continue to be as transparent about this process as we can, I'm sure we'll heal together and move beyond this tragedy.

BALDWIN: Yusuf, final question, did you know - had you met Usaama Rahim? I was reading my "Boston Globe" this morning and I want to say it referenced your acknowledgment of how he had worked or applied to work as a security guard at the Islamic Center, what, back in 2013?

VALI: So our interaction with Mr. Rahim was very limited. We contract out our security to a firm. And that firm had hired him in a part-time role for about a month two years ago. Since then, you know, we - personally, I'd never seen him. In fact, I'd never met him even before that. However, what we do know for certain is that he never volunteered. He was never in any leadership positions and he never regularly prayed at the center.

[14:09:58] BALDWIN: OK. Yusuf Vali with the Islamic Society of Boston Cultural Center, thank you so much, sir, for your time. I really appreciate it.

VALI: A pleasure being with you. Please pray for Boston.

BALDWIN: Thank you. Yes, absolutely. And we'll have more from Boston throughout the show. Meantime, breaking news here in the war against ISIS. Terrorists closing a dam so that towns will die of thirst. All of this as the U.S. says 10,000 ISIS militants have been killed.

Plus, a lawmaker says absolutely no deal with Iran if American hostages are not brought home. He will join me live.

And vacation tragedy. This young American woman mauled to death by a lion on safari. Are tourists pushing the boundaries? That's ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

The number is staggering. Ten thousand ISIS fighters killed so far in the U.S.-led war. But if this death count has made a dent, it's not showing at all. ISIS has just taken over a dam near the key city of Ramadi, shutting it down a preventing water from reaching two key towns. Their goal, to, quote, "kill people of thirst."

[14:15:16] Joining me now, CNN military analyst and retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling.

General, always great to have you on.

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Thanks, Brooke. It's good to be with you.

BALDWIN: So, you have ISIS seizing territory. We're talking about this dam. I mean when you hear this number, 10,000 dead, what - what does the figure matter to you?

HERTLING: Well, it doesn't. And what I would say, Brooke, is any military person that's in command or in charge of operations will tell you, it's not relevant. It's important, but it's not relevant. And what I mean by that is, it's an interesting commentary on what success is going on because there are certainly a lot of battles where a lot of ISIS soldiers are being kill. But, unfortunately, there's a lot of Iraqi security force soldiers being killed as well.

We -

BALDWIN: So why put it out there?

HERTLING: Yes, I don't know. And, truthfully, I cringed when I heard it because this is not the first time this has happened. You know, there have been State Department officials in the past, and Mr. Blinken is a terrific guy and he's a great deputy secretary, but it's not helpful to the military cause to give body counts like this. It's an indicator that success is occurring and I think it's to counter the narrative that is prevalent today that ISIS is winning and gaining territory, when, in fact, they're not. They are having some battlefield successes in Anbar province, but there are a lot of other areas throughout Iraq where they are being beaten badly.

BALDWIN: Well, what about this? It appears to be a gain. The Mosul dam, right, they still have it. They're threatening to cut the supply to 1.7 million people. And there are fears that that could create, you know, a flooding across - across part of the country. So what would the dangers, general, be, you know, posed by ISIS taking this dam near Ramadi?

HERTLING: Well, there are several dams throughout Iraq, Brooke, and what I tell you, their strategy is to try and gain access to them for two reasons. First of all, they gain the hydroelectric power to the various cities. The dams out in Anbar province, the one in Ramadi, the one at Haditha, control most of the western portions of Baghdad's electricity, which is spurious (ph) at best one a good day. The dams in Mosul - or the Mosul dam that people talked about last summer, control that in the northern areas of the country.

But the second thing it does is, there is a beautiful irrigation canal system within Iraq that dates back thousands of years. When you control the water supplies, you control the food supplies. And we're getting ready to go into growing season. We've seen this before with al Qaeda. They would actually take water sources, huge canals shuts, so it would direct water into the Sunni areas while misdirecting it away from the Shia areas. It would cause more tension. And it contributes to the civil war. So water does become a weapon in Iraq, as it does in most Middle East countries.

BALDWIN: So it's power. It's less about potential flooding. Forgive me, general, but it's more about wielding that power.

HERTLING: Absolutely. Absolutely. And when they put the commentary that this is about making people, you know, die from thirst -

BALDWIN: Killing them with thirst. Right.

HERTLING: Dying from thirst, it's crazy because that's not the intent. The intent is because there are wells throughout Iraq as well that will help the little villages and town. But it's all about hydroelectricity. It's all about farming. And it's all about, like you just said, gaining power over their adversaries.

BALDWIN: That is such an important point to make. And then - then you have Syria, right? The U.S. embassy in Syria, long since closed its doors, but it tweeted this. Quote, "coalition partners noted a continued deterioration of the situation in Syria and the inability and unwillingness of the Assad regime to fight ISIL. You know, ISIS has been going door to door killing Syrian government forces. So why wouldn't they be trying to take them out?

HERTLING: Because they are so focused Fattah and al Nusra. That's their biggest enemy in Syria. ISIL in Syria has been somewhat to a side show to the Assad regime. Now they are beginning to take over towns, controlling various lines of operation, lines of logistics. So they've taken over several counties and they're beginning to intercede in some of the main areas in Syria.

Assad has been focused on his primary targets, which has been the rebels. Now he's got - and he was hoping that ISIS would actually help him get rid of his rebels. BALDWIN: Isn't that what he's doing? I mean, ultimately, isn't he -

he's sort of helping ISIS. They're continuing along to Aleppo, let's say. Helping ISIS take out the rebels and then ultimately, you know, maybe the regime would take out ISIS and he would thus have full control. Is that what he thinks?

HERTLING: I think that is his strategy. But it's going to backfire. And it is going to cause major problems.

BALDWIN: Tell me why.

HERTLING: Because both groups are going to become overpowering to the Assad regime and it's - it's going to form a catastrophe in that country because you're basically going to have a three-way fight between the rebels, ISIS and the Assad government and potentially you could see ISIS and the rebel forces, al Nusra and Fattah, joining together. I don't think that's very likely, but it could happen to overthrow Assad. And then there would be the continued civil war between the two sides.

[14:20:19] BALDWIN: So then, General Hertling, I mean it begs the question, if we're talking catastrophe, then should the U.S. reconsider its role, its presence in Syria?

HERTLING: The presence in Syria has been one of containment while defeating the ISIS forces in Iraq, which is attempting to have a solid government. The al Badi government is coming into its strengths and its power, trying to get the Sunnis and the Kurds together.

You have to take this one bite at a time, Brooke. And, truthfully, what is - what we're attempting to do is help the Iraqi government solve the ISIS problem. And then hopefully by actually conducting a war of attrition against ISIS in Iraq, you could eventually turn potentially, as you train more Syrian rebel forces to go against the Assad regime, to also fight ISIS. This is - this is a step by step.

Now, remember, we've said from the beginning, this is a multiyear, in fact even a generational problem. And it really doesn't matter how many of these people you kill. That's why I cringed at the 10,000 ISIS soldiers being killed because you could kill 20,000, 30,000. If the ideology is still there, if they are still willing to conduct attacks and disrupt the governments as it's trying to form, you're still going to have problems no matter how many you kill. You can't kill your way out of this.

BALDWIN: General Mark Hertling, thank you so much.

HERTLING: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Thank you. We'll see you next time.

Coming up here on CNN, should the fate of a nuclear deal with Iran be tied to the release of Americans currently held there? We'll talk to a member of Congress who was definitely one of several pushing for that to happen. And next, we're learning more about the final moments before an

American tourist was killed by a lion on safari in Africa. What went so wrong? We'll talk with a wildlife expert coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:26:20] BALDWIN: Tragic new details about this young woman mauled to death by a lion. Katherine Chappell from New York was killed on a safari trip in South Africa. She rolled down her passenger car window Monday to snap photos of these lions. Witnesses in other cars frantically were honking their horns, trying to warn her and the car's driver that one line was approaching quite closely from behind. The lion lunged and attacked her through her open car window. The tour guide tried to fend off the lion, injuring his arm. And now condolences are just pouring in for this young woman who worked as a visual effects editor for HBO's hit TV show "Game of Thrones." Her memorial service is set for this weekend.

Joining me now, wildlife expert Ron Magill of the Miami Metro Zoo.

And, Ron, I mean, you know Africa quite well. You've been there 40 times. I mean what are the rules for a safari as far as vehicles and having your windows down and snapping photos?

RON MAGILL, WILDLIFE EXPERT: You know, it's ironic, Brooke, because actually if you go out into the wilds of Africa, if you're in the Maasai Mara, the Serengeti, even out in the open plains of wild Africa with the lions, many times you're in vehicles that don't even have doors or windows. And you think, well, why aren't the lions jumping in there? Well, those lions have been conditioned to know that everything in that vehicle is basically kind of part of the vehicle and off limits. You're told never to stand up in the vehicle, never, of course, to step out of the vehicle. This was ironic because this is in an enclosed, captive park where the lions are used to vehicles going through where the windows always have to be up. I mean there are signs all over the place, keep the windows up.

So what you had here was a deviation in that the windows were down. And this lioness saw an opportunity, either whether it was aggression, whether she's thinking there's food in there and realized when she got too close there wasn't food. For whatever reason, she got into the window, but it was - it was a result of human error, not following the rules.

These animals are part of a habit that they - a routine that they have to have. Like I say, it's ironic. I've been in Africa, like I said, 50 times, and I've been in a vehicle with a lion walking right by me that could jump in the vehicle, yet they don't, but that's in the wild. In captivity, those animals have been trained differently and are accustomed to different things. You change that routine, tragedy can happen.

BALDWIN: So that's an important distinction. So because this wasn't in the wild, you're in these more enclosed situations. This is a park. You have doors. You have windows. And so what - what are examples, then, Ron, that would cause the lion to attack? MAGILL: You know, it's very speculative, but it could be anything from

a perfume she was wearing, a scent that she had. It could have been the sound of the click of the camera. It could have been the lioness seeing a reflection of herself in the lens of the camera. There's so many things you can speculate on what it was. The bottom line is, the only thing predictable about these animals is that they're unpredictable. So you have to take every measure you can to ensure that they're not going to have access to you. You've got to keep the windows closed.

I know it's so hard for people. They look at lions. We see people looking at lions here at the zoo and they -

BALDWIN: They're beautiful.

MAGILL: They look like just big, cuddly domestic cats. Yes, but they're not that. You know, there's an old saying that says you can take the animal out of the wild, you can never take the wild out of the animal. These are opportunistic predators that can change their mood in a heartbeat and you always need to assume that's going to happen.

BALDWIN: I know that park officials are saying this lion that killed this young woman here from New York, the lion will not be euthanized. Do you agree with that?

MAGILL: Absolutely, I agree with that. The lion was being a lion. We have got to stop that. you know, I've got to tell you, Brooke, many years ago we had a tragedy here at the zoo where a tiger killed a keeper. And I must tell you, you know, people said, are you going to euthanize the tiger? No, the tiger was being a tiger. This was human error. And that's what makes this so sad. This tragic - beyond tragic that this woman has lost her life to this tragedy, but it would double the tragedy to have to make the lion suffer for being a lion.

BALDWIN: Ron Magill, thank you so much, in Miami, at the Miami Metro Zoo. Appreciate it. So sad.

[14:30:05] MAGILL: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up next here, this chilling picture. This is the arsenal found in the car of the man who jumped the fence and ran to the front door of the White House -- automatic weapons, hatchets, machete machetes. We've talked about this story, but you've never seen this.

Also ahead, a vivid description of the video that captured the moments when Boston police shot and killed a man with that military style knife.

Stay right here. You're watching CNN.

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