Return to Transcripts main page


China is The Suspect in the Biggest Computer Break-In Yet; Law Enforcement Shot and Killed One of the Three Alleged Conspirators on Tuesday; Three Mysterious Shootings in the Same Part of Colorado; Looters Surrounded by bags of Prescription Drugs Caught on Camera; Former Texas Governor Rick Perry Joins GOP Race; Jim Bob, Michelle Duggar's Comments Examined. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired June 4, 2015 - 20:00   ET


[20:00:08] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening. Thanks for joining us.

A very full night tonight starting with the suspect in the biggest computer break-in yet, hackers gaining access to confidential information on as many as four million Americans which would be bad enough but it gets worse. These four million men and women are either current or former federal employees. Now, we only learned about it late today.

Tonight, we have also learned that the prime suspect is not some nerd in a basement somewhere or crime syndicate, but a superpower, the people's republic of China, authorities say.

Evan Perez joins us now with what his sources have been saying. So what new information are you learning?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, I'm told the breach is much, much bigger than what the government has told us today. We're told that virtually, every government agency has been breached by the hackers. And that there were two distinct attacks that occurred. We are only now beginning to learn that perhaps this may affect millions more than the four million the office of personnel management announced today. Again, this is a much bigger deal than the government first let on.

COOPER: That is incredible. Every agency of the government?

PEREZ: Virtually, every government agency was breached by this, as part of this attack. And it was sophisticated enough that they used different signatures to throw off anybody who might have been looking.

COOPER: And how long was this going on for?

PEREZ: Well, they were no the system for months, Anderson, and that is really raising a major concern here. The department of homeland security made a big deal today of saying their Einstein system was key in detecting this.

However, I'm told by sources that really the office of personnel management detected it first and then the homeland security department came in and used the system called Einstein to try to diagnose and see where else it was and they discovered it was spread much more broadly.

Here is the issue. The homeland security department is supposed to be doing diagnostic checks of government networks all over the place and they clearly aren't doing it. And there is another problem with the Einstein system and that is that it doesn't really detect when hackers change the signatures of the Malware they are using. So that makes it really not that smart, and certainly not any smarter than anything you can find at best buy, if it can't detect hackers changing the signatures of the attack.

COOPER: And that is why they weren't able to pick up on it for months because of the changed signatures.

PEREZ: They did. There was no different signatures than they didn't know about and didn't know what to detect. The Einstein system needs to know what it is looking for and that is the big weakness in the system.

COOPER: Evan Perez, appreciate the update with us.

Well, someone who spent years doing battle in the cyber trenches Shawn Henry who over saw computer crime investigations for the FBI. He currently run a cyber-security firm Crowd Strike Services.

Why would the Chinese be interested in this situation? What benefit does it give them?

SHAWN HENRY, FORMER EXECUTIVE ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, FBI: You know, I've heard reports that it is China. I think it may be early to tell. But if it is China, it is not unusual for foreign intelligence services to look and collect information about U.S. government employees. Often times what they look to do is to gather dossiers on employees so that they can then target them through physical attacks. And by collecting all of this information, it is having a giant data base they may be able to can tap into at any time.

COOPER: So, I mean, a data base of four million plus people, that is - I mean, that is a huge ream of information to have.

HENRY: You are talking about government employees that work across all sorts of agencies. The department of energy, the department of education, the department of commerce, perhaps in the White House. So these are people who have sensitive information or access to information. And if, in fact, it is an intelligence service, it would be someone to target.

COOPER: If it is background information, it if is confidential information and it is potential weak points that they could try to make the most of.

HENRY: Yes, that is exactly right, Anderson. If you are looking to target people through a human attack, somebody wants to come after Anderson Cooper. Everything I can learn about you is a value. So when I make an approach, I am able to do it in a way that is gaining your confidence. Maybe I know a college you went, maybe I know friends that you are associated with. That will help me when I come to approach you.

COOPER: Why did these breaches and we keep hearing about them, whether it is, you know, China, we have heard attacks from Iran, from North Korea, in Russia as well, is it that the U.S. system is not all that advanced or is it just the nature of the beast and where we live?

HENRY: It really is nature of the networks. These networks are so vast and they are really geographically disbursed and very, very, difficult to be able to protect. And the reality of it is you can't prevent these attacks. All you have to do is learn to detect them. If you can detect them quickly enough, you can mitigate the consequences. What happens oftentimes is the adversaries get into the networks. They are there for months or years completely undetected. They have the opportunity to really scarf up all sorts of data.

[20:04:59] COOPER: That is incredible they can remain in a system for months and years without being detected.

HENRY: It is an incredible challenge. It is very difficult to try to find them. But if organizations deploy the right technology, they have the right policies and processes in place, they are in a much stronger position to detect them quickly. That is the way to get around the corner here. Preventing them from getting in and of itself is not really suitable because it is not going to happen. There are networks that have hundreds of thousands of end points, all of them are an ingress into the network.

COOPER: And if one has assumed if they are doing this to us, the U.S. is doing this to others as well.

HENRY: You know, there is this whole issue about national security and organizations, agencies that are looking to collect intelligence. I think from a national security perspective, there is very well known what organizations or intelligence services are doing against each other. What we're looking at oftentimes is commercial espionage where foreign governments are taking data out of U.S. companies and they are providing it to their companies so they have a competitive advantage.

COOPER: Shawn, I appreciate you being on. Thank you.

HENRY: Thanks, Anderson.

COOPER: There is breaking news as well, tonight, a very different but potentially no less frightening stories with online connections, in this case, cyber recruitment by terror groups, namely the alleged plot to kill Boston police officers and behead a prominent blogger.

Law enforcement shot and killed one of the three alleged conspirators on Tuesday, ever since they are even looking for possible links online to ISIS or ISIS supporters. Now, tonight, as our Pamela Brown reports, they may have found one.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Tonight, CNN is learning ISIS played a more direct role in the thwarted Boston terror attack than first thought. Two U.S. officials say at least one of the men connected to the plot to behead controversial activist Pamela Geller and kill police in Massachusetts was being encouraged by known ISIS terrorists who were communicating from overseas.

Boston police commissioner William Evans says one of the men Usama Rahim was put under 24/7 surveillance within the past ten days.

So what made you go from, OK, this guy could be aspirational to operational.

WILLIAM EVANS, COMMISSIONER, BOSTON POLICE: The language we were picking up, you know, let's get a boy in blue and we couldn't let him out of our sight. When it looked like it was going operational, we stepped into action.

BROWN: Also new today, a law enforcement sources tell CNN Rahim called his father to say goodbyes Tuesday morning. The call is all overheard by investigators who had been monitoring his e-mail and phone activity around the clock surveillance.

Law enforcement was fearful he would board a bus with three military knives they knew he ordered from Amazon just last week and that is why officials say they approached him outside of this CVS in Boston.

EVANS: We didn't want to get him on a bus because he very well could have acted out on a bus, but we knew the urgency was there to get to him.

BROWN: Rahim was heard on wiretap Tuesday morning allegedly planning to attack law enforcement after abandoning plans to go to New York to behead Geller. Court documents say Rahim met on a Rhode Island beach this past Sunday with a relative, David Wright, to discuss the beheading plot. Wright was arrested and appeared in court on Wednesday. And today law enforcement was still outside of a Rhode Island home of a third person who was part of the beach discussion. Authorities questioned that person already but have not said who it is.

You have him on the wire taps allegedly that he wanted to go after the boys in blue, that he wanted to go to New York and behead Pamela Geller. Why wasn't he arrested before this?

EVANS: It might be hearsay, it might be just, you know, small talk. The urgency was really came to light on Tuesday morning that this is real. When the knives got delivered, the whole talk of a vacation and, you know, which was code for a violent jihad.

BROWN: Now for the first time Rahim's mother and other family members through their attorney are denying any knowledge of a connection between Rahim and ISIS.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That comes as an absolute surprise to the family. They had not perceived any conduct or change in demeanor with Usama consistent with those records.


COOPER: Pamela Brown joins us now.

Do we have any idea if ISIS was directly involved in planning or directly any of these alleged, you know, planned attacks?

BROWN: We know that right now the FBI is combing through the men's electronics trying to figure out the extent of ISIS' involvement and how much it was involved in the planning and even perhaps directing of the attack.

What we've learned though, Anderson, from talking to U.S. officials is that this is more than aspirational here. This is more than just these men looking at ISIS propaganda. That at least one of the men was in contact with known ISIS terrorists communicating online from overseas. And that is what is so concerning for officials. That apparently, these ISIS militants were encouraging one of the men to launch an attack here in the U.S. It is unclear if whether the ISIS militant overseas was encouraging a specific attack like what we learned in the complaint, the beheading of Pamela Geller in New York or if it is more general. We are still waiting to learn this.

But from talking to U.S. officials, they believe that these men, in their minds, were acting on behalf of ISIS. As one official said, this is the new normal. This is what we're facing right now. We saw it in Garland, Texas, with the attempted terrorist attack and now seeing it here in Boston.

[20:10:22] COOPER: Pam Brown, appreciate the update. Thank you.

Coming up next, three mysterious shootings in the same part of Colorado. People walking, riding, driving their back and shot for no apparent reason. Now, there is fear growing that some kind of serial shooter maybe doing this. We have late word from authorities on that. They are commenting on that idea.

Also tonight, all those looters caught on cameras inside Baltimore drugstore during the violence there, many of them identifiable, yet few signs that authorities were actually trying to find them. Tonight it change and we will tell you about it when we continue.


[20:14:36] COOPER: Breaking news tonight out of Colorado where two unexplained shootings have become three. Three unconnected seemingly random victims and one vital question, are they all victims of a single shooter?

Tonight some late word from investigators. Ana Cabrera brings us that, after setting the scene, beginning with the latest shooting.


ANA CABRERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Another deadly shooting shocking Colorado.

[20:15:58] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It makes you stop and think. It just -- yes, it's scary.

CABRERA: Fears spreading about a possible Syria shooter, perhaps a serial sniper on the loose.

CHIEF LUKE HECKER, LOVELAND POLICE: Channel what might be fear into being productive. Help us look. Keep your eyes open.

CABRERA: The latest victim, 65-year-old William Canold Junior, found late Wednesday night lying on a sidewalk bleeding. Authorities aren't talking about the circumstances surrounding his death, but say he was shot in the chest. And now they are looking into whether his death is linked to two other shootings in the past week in the same region.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm mad there is somebody running around in the streets of our town and took somebody's life and thinks they are going to get away with it.

CABRERA: John Jacoby was shot and killed May18th while riding his bike on a rural county road. A few weeks earlier, and just five miles away, Cori Romero was shot in the neck while driving on to interstate- 25.

CORI ROMERO, SHOOTING VICTIM: I was merging on to i-25 when a car pulled up next to me and I thought they actually hit my car with their car but my window shattered. I noted I was bleeding a little bit and then the paramedics and the police got there and that's when they noticed the bullet holes in my car.

CABRERA: Authorities believed Jacoby and Romero were random to say their shootings are connected.

CHIEF JOHN MICHAELS, WINDSOR POLICE: We did recover evidence that links the shootings together.

CABRERA: A task force that include the FBI is investigating. A $10,000 reward already being offered. And now, a new death bringing new urgency to find out who is pulling the trigger.


COOPER: And Ana Cabrera joins us now from Centennial, Colorado.

So what are police saying about this possible being some sort of serial sniper?

CABRERA: Well, they aren't going there quite yet. But they are calling on the community to remain vigilant and to report anything that might be connected to the recent shootings. And in fact, we have learned that there have been two dozen reports of people saying their car windows have shattered while they are driving.

And I talked to the Colorado state patrol about this because that is the agency compiling all the reports. And I'm told there does not appear seem to be a trend at this time. In fact, all these reports are coming from different locations and there has been no evidence to prove or confirm that windows were shot. It could just be road debris, but it definitely reflects the heightened alert people are feeling around here given those recent shootings in northern Colorado -- Anderson.

COOPER: Ana, appreciate the update.

Now, late development in the wake of the looting and violence in Baltimore, welcome development to some there who believing that the police have shade away from enforcing the law ever since.

And take a look. This is one of a handful of photos that Baltimore police and the D.A. put out this evening. Looters surrounded by bags of prescription drugs caught on camera. Authorities now actually seeking apparently these individuals and others who broke into area of pharmacies, tore through them and searching narcotics and were picked up by numerous security cameras, as you see one there. Stealing enough drugs say the police chief to keep the city high for a year and drive violent crime rates higher. And given that, a lot of people wonder why authorities did not seem to be putting a sharper focus or really any focus on catching the culprits. And now from Miguel Marquez who spoke with the looting victim.


MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Tonight, dramatic video, moments after the looting started here in Baltimore, among the first targets, pharmacies like this one.

This man who works here didn't want his face or name used. He said the assault on his pharmacy started before sunset. 3:00 p.m., Care One pharmacy, people still picking up prescriptions, looters rush in, trying to smash security glass with a chair. Hours later, they return this time entering through the rear of the store, stripping shelves of anything and everything.

You called police after your store got looted. How long did it take for them to come here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It took them more than a month.

MARQUEZ: You have video tape of everybody who was in the store that night robbing the place. How police viewed that?


MARQUEZ: Despite the emphasis, Baltimore police are now putting on stolen pharmaceutical --

ANTHONY BATTS, COMMISSIONER, BALTIMORE POLICE: Criminals are selling the stolen drugs. There are turf wars happening which are leading to violent and shootings in our city.

MARQUEZ: What did you make of his press conference?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To me, it is a joke. It is a joke.

MARQUEZ: This pharmacy employee said if police were truly worried about pharmaceutical drugs they should have responded sooner. In one location, looters made off with a safe and one looter even left his cell phone behind it. Was ringing all the next day.

The phone was ringing the next day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The next morning, because this happened at night, the next morning that phone was buzzing. The family called me to tell me that people were calling the phone.

MARQUEZ: And this is a safe where the more controlled substances are kept at this pharmacy. You can see, you can feel literally how they tried to hack into it. They were not able to get into the safe despite how hard they tried.

This is the video of looters trying their hardest to get into that very safe, unable to carry this one away, they left it behind.

Also left behind here, a sense of security for everyone, not just pharmacies, restaurants like Great Grand Soul Food struggled to keep the doors open and the lack of security doesn't make it any easier.

[20:20:31] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm not sure if I've seen any increase in police presence. I'll actually seen more of an increase in violence.


COOPER: And Miguel joins us now from Baltimore.

Have police given us any kind of reason why they haven't aggressively investigated the cases because the commissioner has been making a big deal about the presence of the drugs on the streets?

MARQUEZ: Yes, to come out like that and not have any good answers say this is everything we've been doing, basically they are starting from zero it seems like from yesterday. We have asked repeatedly to any response the specific claims the pharmacy owners make and they haven't. They only said that they are investigating across the board. They are involving the feds and that is why we see the pictures that we saw earlier. They also say they will eventually catch the bad guys - Anderson.

COOPER: All right, Miguel Marquez, thanks from Baltimore tonight.

Just ahead, Rick Perry throws his hat into the presidential primary race through Republican field. Now in the double-digits, about to get even bigger, the question is does that help or hurt the GOP his bid for the White House.

Also tonight, Michelle and Jim Bob Duggar breaking their silence to face new criticism over what they did and didn't do when if he found out their son was molesting his younger sisters. They are also hitting back saying they are the victims in this whole mess. We'll show you what they said.


[20:25:40] COOPER: Today former Texas governor Rick Perry announced his second run for the White House in a hanger outside of Dallas sharing the stage looking there, dozens of military veterans including Navy SEAL Marcus Luttrell who Mr. Perry referred to as a second son. Luttrell is a Texas Navy and the author of the book "Lone Survivor." And by the way, you aren't see double. That is Luttrell's twin brother, Morgan, also a SEAL, standing on the other side of the former governor.

The stage, as you see, was pack and so is the Republican field, Perry has jumped in to and it is about to get even more crowded.

Dana Bash reports.


RICK PERRY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Today I'm about to run for the presidency of the United States of America.

DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): And then there were ten. Ten Republicans officially in the ring for the White House. Rick Perry today's entry is running on experience as the longest serving governor in Texas history, trying to make voters forget about this embarrassing the last run.

Perry isn't the only return contender, two actually won past Iowa caucuses, Pennsylvania Rick Santorum -

RICK SANTORUM (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And the White House is the last place for on the job training.

BASH: And former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee.

MIKE HUCKABEE (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I grew up blue-collar, not blue blood.

BASH: Four senators want to be president including three first term members -- Ted Cruz of Texas --

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Imagine millions of courageous conservatives all across America rising up together to saying in Unison, we demand our liberty.

BASH: Rand Paul of Kentucky.

SEN. RAND PAUL (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We need to boldly proclaim our vision for America. We need to go boldly forth under the banner of liberty that clutches the constitution in one hand and the bill of rights in the other.

BASH: And Florida's Marco Rubio.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Yesterday is over. And we're never going back.

BASH: (INAUDIBLE) three terms South Carolina senator Lindsey Graham is running on his foreign policy credos.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have more experience with our national security than any other candidate, and that includes you, Hillary.

BASH: Former New York governor George Pataki served during 9/11.

GEORGE PATAKI (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We will defend our freedom but not be the world's policeman.

BASH: Two contenders have never held political office -- neurosurgeon, Ben Carson -

BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm probably never going to be politically correct because I am not a politician.

BASH: And former Hewlett Packard CEO, Carly Fiorina.

CARLY FIORINA (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Like Hillary Clinton, I too have traveled hundreds of thousands of miles around the globe. But unlike Mrs. Clinton, I know that flying is an activity, not an accomplishment.

BASH: And there are still more to come. Former Florida governor Jeb Bush and Louisiana governor Bobby Jindal will make their candidacies official later this month. Wisconsin governor Scott Walker, New Jersey governor Chris Christie and Ohio governor John Kasich are also preparing presidential runs.


Assuming all of them jump in, this will be the largest GOP presidential field in four decades -- Anderson.

COOPER: It is fascinating.

Let's dig deeper now in how the size of the GOP field is likely to shape the race. Joining me CNN chief political analyst Gloria Borger and chief Washington correspondent and host of "THE LEAD" Jake Tapper.

Jake, it does seem like every Republican politician in the United State just about wants to run for president right now. What does it say about the Republican Party and about what their view is the prospects are actually winning?

JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: First of all, it says that the Republican Party has fairly deep bench. There are a lot of high-profile governors and senators who are going to run. And if you look at the democratic side of the aisle, you don't see that same kind of deep bench.

And also, the reason I think we're seeing so many of them run because we've had eight years of a democratic president. We are probably, if you look at historical trends, going to have a Republican president, not necessarily but that is the trend. And there is no incumbent running. As of now, vice president Biden hasn't said he is going to run. Obviously, President Obama can't run for re-election. So the odds are decent that a Republican is going to win.

COOPER: And Gloria, as Jake said, I mean, there are a lot of very viable candidates on the Republican side. It is not like 2012.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: You know, in 2012, people called it the clown car and I think at this rate so far you would have to say that the Republican bench looks very deep and very serious.


Republican bench looks very deep and very serious. You have three people who have run before for the presidency. You have a group of incumbent senators, you have governors and former governors. You have people who are actually talking about ideas, because as Jake points out, they've been out of power, and this is what happens to a party when they don't have the White House for eight years. They develop a deep bench, and they start thinking about that -- what they would do if they could get back in the White House, and that is exactly what has occurred in the Republican Party. It is a very vibrant field out there.

COOPER: Jake, is it a good thing for the Republican Party? Because a lot of people will say, for these candidates, you get better as a candidate if you have competition. Hillary Clinton at this point doesn't really seem to have competition on the Democratic side, and that might not be a good thing for her.

TAPPER: I agree with that assessment. If you look at the 2008 race, Obama versus Clinton, they made each other stronger, tougher candidates. I don't know if Obama would have been as strong in the fall against Senator John McCain if Hillary Clinton had not been there fighting him every step of the way.

COOPER: And I also wonder, Gloria, you look at some of these candidates, and you wonder do they really think they have a shot at winning the nomination, or is it about, you know, keeping, staying relevant, being able to get on the lecture circuit later on?

BORGER: It is sort of yes, and it's kind of you look around and say, why not me. A lot of these folks who are getting in, we just had George Pataki getting in the race, that's somebody you haven't heard from in a while. Former governor of New York. They look around and they say, why not me? Don't forget, you have got five candidates right now who are tied for first place, with a huge number of 10 percent each. If you were polling at 2 percent, you could say well, I'm within single-digits of the person who is in first place, so why not do it. They think Hillary Clinton is beatable. This is good for them. Good for their resume. Why not get in and live off of free media and have some nice road trips along the way.

COOPER: And Jake, for that, you would have to stay in at least until the first primaries. TAPPER: I think that is right. To stay until the first primary,

until there is a reason and impetus for your leaving. Although that certainly is not what happened with Tim Pawlenty. We saw him bow out after he lost in the Iowa straw poll. It looks like a lot of the top tier candidates won't participate in a straw poll this year, so we're not exactly sure what the situation will be.

And what Gloria just said reminds of something Senator John McCain said, upon being elected to the Senate, he said you spend the first six months saying how on earth did I get here, and the rest of your time in the Senate saying how on earth did the rest of these guys get here? At a certain point, you think I can do this job, and if I can do this job, I can do that one.

COOPER: Jake Tapper, Gloria borger, thank you both.

Just ahead, Michelle and Jim Bob Duggar speaking out about their son Joshua's molesting four of their daughters and another girl. How they tried to deal with it, quote, in house as parents, and why they think they are actually the targets of what they call an unprecedented attack.



COOPER: The parents from "19 Kids and Counting" have broken their silence about the molestation scandal involving their oldest son. In an interview with Megyn Kelly on Fox News, Michelle and Jim Bob Duggar confirmed their son Josh molested five girls when he was a teenager, four of them his younger sisters. And during the interview, Michelle and Jim Bob Duggar minimized Josh's actions, really, and its effect on the victims in all sorts of ways. Here are a few examples.


JIM BOB DUGGAR, FATHER: About 12 years ago, we went through one of the darkest times that our family has ever gone through, and our son Josh came to us on his own, and he was crying. And he had just turned 14, and he said that he had actually improperly touched some of our daughters. And it was --

MIHELLE DUGGAR, MOTHER: We were shocked. I mean, we were just devastated. I don't think any patient is prepared for trauma like that. And I think we had one ray of hope in that Josh had a tender conscience, and he was the one that came and shared on his own, even though the others really didn't know anything of his wrongdoing.

MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS: Did he explain why? Was that a question that you asked?

J. B. DUGGAR: He said he was just curious about girls, and he had gone in and just basically touched them over their clothes while they were sleeping. They didn't even know he had done it.

This was not rape or anything like that. This was like touching somebody over their clothes. There were a couple of incidents where he touched them under their clothes, but it was like a few seconds, and then he came to us and was crying and told us what happened. And it was after that third time that he came to us, is where we really felt like, you know what, we had done everything we can as parents to handle this in house, we need to get help.


COOPER: The Duggars also said the media attention as the result of some agenda, an unprecedented attack against their family, and they wonder why the press hasn't been going after those who released juvenile records. In a scathing article for the Daily Beast, Kevin Fallon writes the Duggars, quote, "dug themselves into a P.R. hole no amount of high-minded righteousness can get them out of." He joins me, along with CNN senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, and Dr. Drew Pinsky, host of "Dr. Drew" on HLN.

Dr. Drew, there are so many things to talk about in that sound bite alone. What did you make of this interview? A, they seemed to make themselves the victims in all of this. The whole thing about, well, it was just above the clothes, except for those times when it wasn't and then it was just a couple of seconds, as if they know how long it really was. Then they're saying it's not rape, which I guess means they think there was no penetration, I don't know why they believe that or how they know that. It just seemed like one thing after another. Am I wrong here?

DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN: No. Anderson, you are right. From the beginning they have been dealing with this, they have been managing it by denying, obfuscating, minimizing, rationalizing, and making it a parental issue rather than a mental health issue.


And quote, once they got help, they went to the system they had been locked into, which is the same system that had been schooling these children, where absolute perfection is demanded all the time, and of course humans aren't perfect beings, and they didn't actually go get an evaluation for this child or his victims at any time.

COOPER: And Jeff, they keep saying, well, our daughters didn't even know what was happening, it happened so fast, they were asleep, they didn't even feel it. That's not a -- I was stunned when they said this.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: They don't know that. And the thing that I find so infuriating about this situation is that we often talk about domestic violence, whether it is child abuse or husband- wife as if it is something that families can manage, and it is up to the families to resolve it. But child abuse and domestic violence is a crime against the state, as well as against the victims. And the state has to be involved. The state has an interest in protecting children. And when you don't report to the authorities something like this, you are putting more children at risk. And by the way, there is another family involved here. One of these children was from a different family. COOPER: They (ph) were sleeping on the couch.

TOOBIN: Do they get any voice in this? This is why we bring in outsiders involved if at all possible to make some sort of neutral judgment about how to protect victims. And the one part about this that is deeply, deeply sinister, and we can't really answer this question, is how much were they protecting Josh and their children and how much were they protecting their TV careers.

COOPER: Come on. They have a financial stake in having a TV show and they still want to have a TV show even after all of this. Kevin, it is hard to believe that didn't weigh into their consideration.

KEVIN FALLON, THE DAILY BEAST: Presumably they did this Fox News interview as a way of saving face and rehabbing their image. I would say by the massive outrage about all the statements that they gave and the exasperation with the way that they sort of excused Josh's behavior, that they did themselves no favors by participating in this interview, and actually hurt their chances at a future TV career.

COOPER: Kevin, I want to play another part of Megyn Kelly's interview.


M. DUGGAR: They've been victimized more by what has happened in these last couple of weeks than they were 12 years ago, because they honestly -- they didn't even understand or know anything had even happened until after the fact, when they were told about it.


COOPER: It is true, when a five-year-old is being fondled by her 14- year-old brother while she's sitting on his lap, she may not know what is going on, but to say that what's happening now is worse than the fondling of a 5-year-old and other countless, however many other girls were involved in this. I mean.

FALLON: It just shows a total ignorance of what sexual abuse and molestation and the ramifications of that on a person's life. It shows a complete lack of intelligence in talking about those issues in general, but the fact that they are victimizing themselves goes to the point of how desperate they seem to maintain this career, this public image, this platform that they have been given to sort of expound on their values and extreme Christianity, and again, an insensitivity to the victims, which are their daughters.

COOPER: Dr. Drew, I mean, in the interview, Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar, they never used the word child molestation or sexual abuse. They said it's not rape, they called it improper touching. If you can't properly name it, are you even truly acknowledging what really happened? Again, we just heard Michelle Duggar saying the girls didn't even know what was going on.

PINSKY: I feel much deeper compassion for this family than you guys do, I'm afraid. I think they all deserve an evaluation. This is a sick situation.

I think the more sinister element, Anderson, is not the television, but the organization that supports the home school education, the group that allegedly evaluated them and told them they did not need to bring in any -- in fact, to keep out any outside services, and to keep managing these kids, because they are perfect, they are perfect, they are perfect.

COOPER: I'm just amazed because I don't believe other families and I don't believe that this family would give other families the benefit of the doubt. I don't believe this family and these parents --

PINSKY: I think you are right.

COOPER: -- would point to a poor, disadvantaged family from a disadvantaged community, and say you know what, that 14-year-old boy who raped his sister, that 14-year-old boy who put his fingers inside of his sister or multiple times with his sisters and did it over and over again, that was just a bad choice and that person shouldn't be in the --


PINSKY: Which is just crazy talk all the way down.

COOPER: Dr. Drew and Jeff, stick around. Kevin, I appreciate you being on, Kevin Fallon from the Daily Beast. There is a lot more to talk about ahead, including how religion plays into this, if it does, and what the Duggars say or said when they were asked about how they could speak about family values and morals given the secret that they were hiding.



COOPER: More now on Michelle and Jim Bob Duggar's first TV interview since the scandal broke about their son Josh molesting young girls when he was a teenager. Fox News's Megyn Kelly asked them what their reaction was when they found out just a few weeks ago that the secret was out.


J.B. DUGGAR: This isn't something we wanted to come out, but if people can see that Josh, who did these very bad things when he was a young person, that God could forgive him for these terrible things, then I hope other people realize that God can forgive them and also make them a new creature.

KELLY: The main charge we've heard from your critics has been they are hypocrites. They preached family values. Josh once said we are the epitome of conservative values. And yet they had this secret, and they weren't honest with the world about who they were.

J. B. DUGGAR: I don't think you go up to total strangers and say hi, my name is so and so and I want you to know what I did as a child and share everything about your past. You know, every family has things happen in the family, and some families maybe have darker things than others, but everybody deals with some things.

KELLY: What the critics are going for is you shouldn't have been preaching about moral values when you had a secret like this in your own family. That you should be calling other people sinners when you yourselves are sinners.

J. B. DUGGAR: Our son violated God's principles of making -- doing some improper touching.


That was terrible. But yet, I think, it has been recently said that what Josh did was inexcusable, but it was not unforgivable.


COOPER: With me again are CNN senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin and Dr. Drew Pinsky, host of "Dr. Drew" on HLN. And joining us also is Bruce Feiler, who writes extensively about both religious and family issues. He is the author of many books, including "Walking the Bible: A Journey by Land Through the Five Books of Moses." So Bruce, what about the religious component to all this? There are certainly people out there who believe the Duggars are using religion as a shield for what happened. There are others who are supportive of the family who say they are being attacked for their religious beliefs.

BRUCE FEILER, AUTHOR: Well, I think they are making two religious arguments. First that they handled this within the religious community, and then secondly they are being persecuted because they are religious. I do think it is safe to say that many secular people feel that they are under assault or under siege by the religious people in this country, but I think that within the religious community, particularly within evangelical Christianity, there is a feeling they are under siege.

COOPER: And, Dr. Drew, Megyn Kelly asked the Duggars if they feared Josh was a threat after the so-called counseling he went to, which seemed to be basically some construction work that he did. They said not at all, they said, quote, that they moved on with life, what do you make of that? Because as we know, if this is some sort of deeply felt thing, and we don't know what motivated Josh Duggar to do this time and time again to a five-year-old and to his other sisters and to a family friend who was sleeping over on a couch, but this isn't something that goes away if it is some deep-seated urge.

PINSKY: Right. It is total, massive, abject denial. It continues to be total, massive, abject denial. There is yet to be an assessment of whether or not this young person, this young individual has a serious mental health issue. Or is himself continuing to be a risk.

We have two parents who have zero training and zero understanding of what they are dealing with, declaring what it is, and that is ridiculous. COOPER: I want to play another clip from the interview. Let's



J. B. DUGGAR: He went and asked God to forgive him, he went back and asked those whom he had offended to forgive him, but we felt like the last jurisdiction of who he needed to make things right with was the law.


COOPER: Jeff, is that the last jurisdiction he needed to make things right with?

TOOBIN: I don't know exactly what he meant by that. But just stepping back, one of the great things about this country is you can believe anything you want to believe about religion or anything else, but you still have to follow the law. And we've discussed many times there are religions that believe in withholding certain kinds of medical treatment, and the courts always step in with children and say we don't care what you believe. The Duggars can believe anything they want, but there are laws in this country about child abuse that they have to follow like everyone else does.

COOPER: What role, if any, do you think the message that the Duggars preach should have in all of this? Should it play a role at all? Clearly there are a lot of people who view them as hypocritical. I think that it is a slippery slope in some ways. Do you think that should play a role, the fact that they -- that Michelle Duggar made these robo-calls calling other people child molesters or potential child molesters? Or do you think that should be separate?

FEILER: There is a line from the Book of Matthew (ph). I wrote it down. How can you say to your neighbor let me take the speck out of your eye while the log is in your own eye. You are a hypocrite. These are the words of the New Testament. This is a central text in Christianity, saying don't be telling your neighbors what to do when you have got your problem in your own community. This is a log in the eye by any definition of a log in the eye. The fact that they are going out saying we feel this way about homosexuality or abortion or transgender, while having this secret, that is deeply problematic and frankly it's on the verge of revolting.

COOPER: Dr. Drew, on Friday, an interview with two of Josh's sisters, who say they were victims -- among the victims -- is going to air, and I want to play a clip from that interview, where they address how their experience became public.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People don't have a right to do this. We're victims. They can't do this to us.

KELLY: And yet they did.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The system was set up to protect kids, both those who make stupid mistakes or have problems like this in their life, and the ones that are affected by those choices, it is just -- it's greatly failed.


COOPER: The police report actually did not -- their names were redacted, and obviously no one had ever, at least in the mainstream media, had ever reported who the actual girls were. They are now clearly coming forward in this interview. But it is interesting, because they are saying they are victims. Their mom doesn't really seem to label them as such. Their mom seems to discount again what happens to them, and saying they don't even remember it, it was above the clothes, except for the times when it wasn't.


PINSKY: Right. They may have been indoctrinated to take this position as you say, based on the mom's denial. But a very common situation is when young people are exposed to their perpetrator over a chronic period of time, they begin to identify with the perpetrator. I think everyone is aware of the Stockholm Syndrome. There is actually a name for it when it happens to children who are the object of abuse. And it's clearly what's happening here. How much it is affecting them, I don't know. But their identification with the victimizer is something that is a serious concern here.

COOPER: Bruce Feiler, I appreciate you being on. Dr. Drew as well, Jeff Toobin as well, thank you. More ahead. We'll be right back.


COOPER: Updating our breaking news, a massive data breach affecting nearly every government agency. Officials telling CNN China is to blame. A lot more on that throughout the night here on CNN. Right now, Mike Rowe, "SOMEBODY'S GOTTA DO IT." We'll see you again 11:00 p.m. Eastern.