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CNN NEWSROOM

Temple Tours Canceled in Egypt; Police Chase New Leads; Controversial NYT Op-Ed Suggests Defaulting on Student Loans; MH-370 Search a "Goose Chase"?. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired June 11, 2015 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


SALIMA IKRAN, PROFESSOR OF EGYPTOLOGY, AMERICAN UNIVERSITY IN CAIRO: But if several groups sort of raced, rushed the gates, of course there's not that much you can do, although increasingly there is a marked military presence the larger monuments, such as the pyramids and the sphinx.

[09:30:05] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: These terrorists who want to harm these ancient sites in Egypt, what do they want? What's their goal?

IKRAN: Well, I wish we really knew, because I think it's a combination. Part of it is to destabilize the government. And then others might be just thinking that let us just wreck these monuments that seem to have nothing to do with the world today as they see it. But, of course, for many Egyptians, for the majority, these are national treasures and symbols of their nation. So, for them, it's an attack on their national sort of sense of nationhood.

COSTELLO: Does Egypt need help in protecting these sites?

IKRAN: Well, I don't really know who or what could help them. Because right now the army, I think, is now gearing up to do a large scale protection. But, I mean, either you send armies from all over the world, which would be highly inappropriate, or I think that the battle against Daesh, or ISIS as it's called in the west, should be stepped up.

COSTELLO: Salima Ikran, thank you so much for your insight. I appreciate you being with me this morning.

Still to come on the NEWSROOM, a multistate manhunt for two cold- blooded kills ramps up as a police chase -- as police chase multiple new leads. Up next, the latest on that search.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:35: 49] COSTELLO: Right now hundreds of law enforcement officials are searching for those two escaped killers. Authorities now chasing leads in three different states to try to hunt down Richard Matt and David Sweat who escaped from a super max prison in upstate New York. Among the many search zones, camp sites and forest areas. CNN's Alexandra Field has more for you.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The search spanning the northern reaches of the Adirondacks.

FIELD (on camera): Are the Adirondacks going to be a huge challenge for them or a resource that provides some cover while they move?

SHANE HOBEL, MOUNTAIN SCOUT SURVIVAL SCHOOL: I think that's a little bit of both.

FIELD (voice-over): Without professional training, survival expert Shane Hobel says the odds are well stacked against them.

HOBEL: It's one of the largest parks in the entire United States, including that of one more the most rugged areas and terrains in this country. The temperature, even at night, even in June, we're still talking about hypothermic conditions. So if they don't have the proper clothing, I'm sure that they're dehydrated. I'm sure they're a little malnourished. They're exhausted.

FIELD: It's likely, Hobel says, they'll duck in and out of the woods, heading out toward urban areas to find resources, going back in to cover ground. If they can navigate it, the Adirondack trail system can lead them in whatever direction they're trying to go. Hobel says experienced hikers typically cover eight to 15 miles a day, some as many as 20.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That means looking behind every tree, under every rock and inside every structure until we find these men.

HOBEL: But there's actually -- if you notice, there's a tread pattern.

FIELD: Hobel trains law enforcement officers to recognize signs that aren't easily noticed.

HOBEL: As a tracker, we come in and we look for the specific disturbances on the landscape and tie it to that individual and then follow the trail.

FIELD (on camera): We'll try it.

HOBEL: And this is where you went in. So I'm looking at the very few patterns and a couple of those leaf pops that you're leaving up.

FIELD (voice-over): In the Adirondacks, the search area is vast. The hunt already days long.

HOBEL: We're back to the search method, and that is simply men or women standing abreast from each other and then walking through the woods and hoping to see something, stumble upon something, discover something.

FIELD: To track these suspects, he says officials would need a very recent sighting to try and find some tell-tale sign.

Alexandra Field, CNN, New York. (END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: In the meantime, a major highway in New York, just five miles from where Richard Matt and David Sweat made their stunning escape, has been shut down. Right along that route, Plattsburg New York. The mayor of that town, mayor James Calnon, joins me now.

Good morning, sir.

MAYOR JAMES CALNON, PLATTSBURGH, NEW YORK (via telephone): Good morning. How are you?

COSTELLO: I'm good. I'm good. Better question, how are you and what are you telling your constituents?

CALNON: Well, of course, we're telling them to be very vigilant and they are. We're telling them to be sure that if there's anything unusual that they see, no matter how trivial, to report it to us so that we can follow it up. We do that. As a small city, we have a police force of about 50 officers. We've been, you know, helping the governor's people, the state police and the other asterisks (ph) of state government in the search from the beginning. We are going to continue to do that. But we're just telling people to be very, very, very vigilant, very careful.

COSTELLO: This major highway that's been shut down, how is that affecting you guys?

CALNON: Well, certainly it alters the traffic pattern and those kind of things and causes a few businesses, and impacts a school. But I think, you know, this north country is a region that is -- has a number of prisons. It is close to the Canadian border. We have a rich history of law enforcement. Everyone here has a friend or family that works in some aspect of law enforcement. So we really understand the necessity. And so I think we're accepting this as part of what we need to do.

COSTELLO: These two killers have been missing since maybe Friday. That's a long time, right?

CALNON: It's a very long time. And, of course, as you, you know, very aptly covered, it's a very rough area. If you head away from civilization, it can be an extremely difficult area. So, of course, we're being particularly vigilant. We're a small city of about 19,000. And so with the -- I guess the biggest urban center there is in the area. So we're being very careful about, you know, we watch all of the means of getting into and out of the city to be sure that that isn't a route that they take.

[09:40:20] COSTELLO: Yes. And I asked you that question because most prisoners who escape are captured after one or two days. And these men have been able to elude authorities for just about a week now. Do you have a theory?

CALNON: Oh, gosh, you know, someone put up a sign the other day that said that Plattsburg has 35,000 private investigators because everyone has a theory. But, you know, the things that people have been talking about that they could have -- you know, could have had transportation and got out of the area before they were even noticed, to having been as close as a mile or two to the prison are -- those things are all possible and we're not accepting -- you know, we're not rejecting any theory at this point. We're following up on everything.

COSTELLO: Mayor James Calnon, thank you so much for talking with me this morning. I appreciate it.

Still to come on the NEWSROOM, a major default debate after my next guest says he chose not to pay back his student loans. He's just going to walk away. Irresponsible, or does he have a point?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:45:52] COSTELLO: If you owe money on your student loans, you're certainly not alone. You're in the company of more than 40 million Americans. To put that into perspective, that's more than the population of Canada, Australia, Poland, and North Korea.

Here's another sobering fact. Nationwide, student loan debt adds up to more than $1 trillion. In a controversial "New York Times" op-ed, author Lee Siegel writes this about his student loans. Quote, "I chose life. That is to say, I defaulted on my student loans. As difficult as it has been, I've never looked back. The millions of young people today, who collectively owe over $1 trillion in loans, may want to consider my example."

He goes on to say this. Quote, "It stuck me as absurd that one could amass crippling debt as a result, not of drug addiction or reckless borrowing and spending, but of going to college."

Siegel isn't alone. About 7 million people have also defaulted on their student loans. And, by the way, Siegel has three degrees from Columbia University. He joins me now to talk about this.

Good morning.

LEE SIEGEL, SOCIAL CRITIC: Good morning.

COSTELLO: OK, there's been a lot of backlash after your op-ed. Did you surprise -- are you surprised by that?

SIEGEL: Shocked, really. I knew it was controversial, but I never expected the hostility and the anger. Someone's been calling our home, got my wife on the phone, spoke abusively about me to her. I just got an e-mail, just now, just before going on the air, from Ron Leber of "The New York Times", a money columnist, telling me he has gone into my public records and he is going to write a column exposing my personal financial history, every bit as though I were Marco Rubio or someone running for president.

COSTELLO: Well, but -

SIEGEL: He's going to talk about my struggle to pay my taxes and he's going to hold me up as an example of financial mismanagement. And this is wrong. I'm an example of a middle class person who's having trouble getting by and I wrote this column to connect to all the other millions of other people in this country who have trouble getting by.

COSTELLO: But there are a lot of people out there who say it's irresponsible to walk away from loan. Because you knew you were taking out the loan. You knew you were going to owe this money, and it's your responsibility. And most people don't walk away from their monetary obligations.

SIEGEL: I understand that, but I didn't walk away. And I didn't say that in the piece.

I said that I refused to take a job that I didn't want and that I would have, I felt, crushed my life, or to go into the army, which I was not suited for. I refused to do that in order to pay my loans. I tried to pay my loans and I couldn't. And I stepped into default. As a result, my credit was ruined. I wandered in the financial wilderness for years.

COSTELLO: How much money do you owe?

SIEGEL: $150,000.

COSTELLO: $150,000. You have three degrees from Columbia University, which is very expensive, mind you.

SIEGEL: Yes, and I want to say something about that. I wanted to become an academic. You need a Ph.D. to become an academic. You need three degrees to become an academic. These were three degrees. Not three Audis. Not three country houses. I worked my way through school. I've worked all my life. I - and in fact, the government did not pay for my school. Columbia paid for my school. The government paid - I took out loans --

COSTELLO: Well, let me ask you a difficult question. Columbia is an expensive university. It's very expensive to go there. Why not choose a cheaper university?

SIEGEL: This is something else I wanted to address, and I think this shows a heartlessness at the heart of the country. I had so many journalists who I know come from wealthy and elite backgrounds, say --

COSTELLO: Well, you're not looking at one of them because I didn't go to Columbia.

SIEGEL: Well, I forgive you. Saying that I should not have looked beyond my origins, I should have stayed at that public university. I should have stayed at that shoe store. In saying that I wanted to get beyond the shoe store, I was being disrespectful to people who sell shoes.

Well, they didn't sell shoes. I sold shoes for a living. I sold shoes for a living for quite some time. And I can assure you that nobody wants to sell shoes for a living. Having had the opportunity to better myself, I seized that opportunity.

COSTELLO: You wanted to be a writer, and that's a very difficult profession.

SIEGEL: That's right.

[09:50:00] COSTELLO: I wanted to be a writer too. But it's difficult to make a living being a writer, so I became a journalist, and I've been very lucky.

But I think when you choose a profession like that, you got to know that, in the back of your mind, you're going to have to work at a job you might not like so that you can support your writing career. Why not go --

SIEGEL: But I did do that.

COSTELLO: Why not continue to go that route?

SIEGEL: I did work at jobs I didn't like. I taught English as a second language. I copy edited, I proofread, I wrote speeches. I took two, three, four jobs on at a time.

What I said was I did not want to go into a lucrative career that would have crushed me and would have taken up my time and would not have let me grow as a writer. And instead I'm turned into some sort of welfare queen of the student -- of the college debt crisis.

COSTELLO: That's because many, many students who have massive student debt are struggling and they are paying and they look at you and they say --

SIEGEL: And that's why -- but I did pay. I paid my dues. Columbia University sued me, froze my account when I was making $25,000 a year. I ended up paying that back that particular loan. Took me 20 years to do it. I paid back that loan. I paid my dues.

I wrote this for those students. I said everyone should put their foot down. Why is it that a rich person can go to college in this country of their choice, and a talented person at a public university where we know the degree is not as valuable as a degree from another college -- we know that. We don't want to say it, we're good liberals, but we know that.

And why can't we tell that 18-year-old woman, young woman at a public university, you can go to the same school as a rich kid? Because you have the talents We're not going to prevent you because you don't.

COSTELLO: I understand .

SIEGEL: Why aren't loans discharged through bankruptcy?

COSTELLO: Thank you so much for stopping by. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much, Lee.

All right, time for a little fun now. How's this for Throwback Thursday? The year 1979, here I am. This is so embarrassing. Here is another. That's me alongside my brothers, Tony and Jimmy. Yes, the '70s. The sight of fashion and groovy catch phases and social outcries.

And now only on CNN can you experience it like this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Norman Lear and Bud Yorkin (ph) created absolutely iconic shows.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They revolutionized American TV.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wasn't going to play around with Mom dented the car and how are we going to keep get Dad from finding out about it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just because a guy is sensitive, and he's an intellectual, and he wears glasses, you make him out a queer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I never said a guy who wears glasses is a queer. A guy who wears glasses is a four-eyes. I guy who's a fag is a queer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) a little bit. I thought they better be careful.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dy-no-mite!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There'd never been a complete black family on TV before with the father.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want us watching all black shows for a change.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where are you going to find one?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Los Angeles Lakers against the Milwaukee Bucks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:: If there's a legacy of television in '70s, it's that you mattered.

(MUSIC)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:57:21] COSTELLO: A goose chase. That's how the president of Emirates Airlines describes the search for missing flight MH-370. He also believes the search will soon be abandoned. His comments come 15 months since the Malaysia Airlines flight disappeared with 239 people on board. Authorities say there is no time limit on their search operation, but have warned that they will not expand the current zone. In the meantime, a new theory emerges about what may have happened to the flight.

Joining me now to talk about this is CNN's David Soucie. Good morning, David.

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: Good morning. How are you?

COSTELLO: I'm good. So what do you think about the search being called a wild goose chase?

SOUCIE: Boy, you know, Mr. Clark has been kind of a critic of this search in the first place, and it wouldn't surprise me to get those kind of comments from him. However, I do believe that, at this point, they are questioning whether it's worthwhile continuing. They've extended the search from 23,000 to 46,000, and now they're talking about another 100,000 square thousands miles. It's getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

But something to consider here is the fact that, in support in his argument, is that those square miles that have been searched are the highest probability areas. So the probability of it being in those other areas are less than it was in the first place. So it seems that, as it goes along, someone is going to have to make a decision at some point as to whether this is a goose chase.

COSTELLO: There's another theory out there about what may have happened to the plane. It was done by a mathematician. He says the plane crashed at a 90 degree angle. Maybe the wings fell off in the air and that meant it went to the bottom of the ocean and maybe that's why searchers can't find any sign of this plane.

SOUCIE: You know, there's a large gap between mathematics and reality, unfortunately. Mathematics gives us a baseline to make assumptions from. But as I have done accident investigations in the field, mapping things mathematically, things that are possible, it would have to have been just exactly the right conditions. I've looked at this model, and it is possible. Likely, I don't think so, because of the fact that what it doesn't consider is those waves that were out there at the time, and it would have had to hit when one of the waves was at a flat point in the middle of the ocean. So that's tough to say.

COSTELLO: All right. David Soucie, thanks so much.

I'm sorry, I'm a little discombobulated because we do have breaking news. I want to head out, right out to Jason Carroll. He's in upstate New York. There's breaking news on these two escaped killers. So let's go out there now.

Investigators, have they caught a break, Jason?

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Could be. This could be one of the most solid leads that we've heard of so far at the very least within the past few days.

[10:00:04] This according to officials who have been briefed on the situation.