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LEGAL VIEW WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

Press Conference About Hunt For Two Escaped Convicts; Rachel Dolezal Continues To Defend Herself Against Claims She Lied About Her Race; Colorado Movie Theater Shooter Told His Psychiatrist About His Desire To Kill Months Before Mass Shooting. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired June 17, 2015 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


12:30:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They interviewed Lyle Mitchell. As far as of today, we had no information whatsoever that he had prior knowledge of the escape or that he participated or actively assisted in the escape of the two inmates.

So that's my response to you on, relative to that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If they do have prior knowledge would that be a crime?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If he had prior knowledge and he assisted in any manner then he could be obviously facing a facilitation charge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. (inaudible) what about that alleged group for higher (ph) locations about that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What I can tell you is that the reports of that that it was discussed between Joyce Mitchell and the two escapees, the information we have from Joyce Mitchell is that that occurred that that plot had occurred. And that's all I'll speak off of that because we don't want to get in to that a relative on issues on the investigation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Captain, can you walk us through where else in the country, where outside this area the investigation has to begin both the state police and also federal law enforcement. What states, what country?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I can't and the reason for that is quite simple. We all know from past state experience that these people watch the news and they listen. We're not going to tip our hand as to where we're looking. I can tell you right now we are embedded with the FBI the U.S. Marshal Service and other federal agencies.

We will go wherever we are needed. But we send teams of state police investigators wherever the lead maybe or we rely upon our federal partners or other law enforcement throughout the country or throughout other countries. We will do that.

I can tell you that the U.S. Marshal Service is working along the Mexican border ensuring that the border is well aware of these escapees. In past history associated with that. The flyers are being distributed by the marshal service. We're reaching out through our partners to assist us in that.

But to give you specific locations, no, it wouldn't be appropriate and I'm sure you all understand the reasoning behind that.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want to -- we're going to wrap this up right now. And we want to thank you for being here. And obviously I'll be available to speak with you in more detail and other issues at a later time. But right now we appreciate you being here and we're going to close all the questions thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN HOST: And there you have it, if you were expecting to have earth shattering news on the hunt for these two murderers on the loose. Maybe not earth shattering but a couple of note that are worth re-mentioning.

And that is this Joyce Mitchell the woman who is accused of helping these two killers break free, she has been moved about 140 miles south of Plattsburgh.

The official is saying it's become too difficult with the number of press, the request, the one lane in an out of the jail where is she being held. She has been move to the Rensselaer County jail.

So she's got a new place to live while these two guys have somewhere else. Where that is, they still don't know. But they did say this, they are concentrating not only in that Upstate New York area, but also throughout the nation, which tells you that yes in fact that announcement that they shifted the search is true and they've shifted it big time.

Couple of other things have known. The number of officers who are involved in that multi agency effort, now down to hundred, they're down to 600 from 800 officers on the lookout for Richard Matt and David Sweat.

We've been putting those pictures up for you because the artist rendition of what they might look like after 12 days on the run presuming they don't have razors or any way to cut their hair. This is the best we can do folks if they have that 12 day growth this is what they might look like now.

We also they are checking what they call high speed areas of egress. That sort of fancy way of saying the freeways and maybe the trains because that might have been the fastest way to get out of that particular are if in fact there are no longer there.

What that means for what they're checking and what directions and which plots along those high speed areas of egress I cannot tell you they would not tell us.

There was a question about the murder for higher reporting that's been out there sources have told numerous agencies, media agencies that Joyce Mitchell may in fact have been involved in conversations with those two inmates, to murder her husband.

That was actually -- that was addressed and in fact we were told by the D.A. that he said she did discuss with those two escapees, the murder plot that had occurred that discussion as far as other people or for hire. No other names, no other concentric circles build at least publically, right now.

[12:35:00] And then the other note that is a critical import to those who are watching perhaps many, many states away. Let say way down south. Apparently now we are being told the Mexican border, the U.S. Marshals on the Mexican border are well aware of these escapees. And they have been told to be on the lookout, they have had flyers circulating around those American agents who work the Mexican border to see if they are indeed trying to cross south.

And I want to bring in Larry Levine.

I told you about Larry about 30 minutes ago the Former Federal Inmate Founder of Wall Street Consultant joining him as well, Joey Jackson our Criminal Defense Attorney HLN Legal Analyst.

Larry back to you, I wanted to ask you a question about whether inmates talk all the time about escape plans what they would do, where they would go, how far they would go. Are you able to give me any insight at all as to these kinds of conversations? And what's the infamous (ph) would be for two guys who got free and have 12 days now, would they stay close hunker down or were they get us far away as they could on those high speed areas of egress that were just mentioned?

LARRY LEVINE, FOUNDER, WALL STREET PRISON CONSULTANTS: Well of course, you know, they had seven hour ahead start, these cops really other than maybe congratulating themselves for working with each other they have nothing. And they've said that.

They got to be spending their time looking instead of going on T.V. But inmates in an institution everybody is thinking of a escaping. I used to watch people walk the fence line, people would take their watch and they would time how long it would take for the parameter trucks to go around the institution.

That the main thing on everybody's mind. How do I get out of here? And there a lot -- they're not looking at the ramifications if they do escape. Their one thing is get on the other side of the fence. So seven hour roughly head start, these guys are gone with all the resources they have there and they've had there. If they were around the parameter of the institution I don't know a three, four, five mile area, they would have found them by now.

BANFIELD: But Larry are you saying, I just want to interrupt you because are you saying that in those conversations that you overheard many times as the federal inmate yourself, when prisoners talk about escaping and they plot all the time that they are not really planning what happens to when you do get on the other side of the wall. But they are not saying I'm getting a train, I'm getting someone to meet me and I am going to such and such a place or such and such a country. LEVINE: No, it's a pipe dream, everybody's fantasy is escaping, you know, a lot of people they want to go, they don't tell other inmates, a weakling in the whole system is going to gets somebody captured. And it's ironic probably after I say this now, every warden in every prison is going to go to the law library. They're going to take the telephone books out of the law library. And they're going to tear the maps out of them.

So, essentially the institution is giving inmates maps of the surrounding area, "Gee now we can plan our escape." But inmates they're not going to tell other inmates what they're doing because in every institution there's informants, rats, snitches call them what they are. That are looking to just run to the authorities give them information possibly hope to get time knocked off their sentence.

Hell, maybe even extra telephone calls, extra food, extra visit something.

BANFIELD: It's a current for sure.

LEVINE: But I don't really think these guys can fight it in other inmates what their plans were.

BANFIELD: Well hold that thought Larry, I want to get Joey on that if what Larry is saying is they don't share this information with other inmates. They may fantasize all they want, walk those sense lines to find the way to get out. But right now the New York Times was just talking about how Clinton is on lock down. Families can barely even speak to those. There is undoubtedly a squeeze for information.

The authorities have hinted that they think they are other accomplices.

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: A hundred percent there's a squeeze. And the other thing is, is not so much that they will give information they may have even given affirmative leak misinformation to other prisoners they answer that, they can put out a trail that would be a tip. But would be a tip that was followed to get them that is the authorities to look in places that they don't intend to be.

And so the reality is that not, you know, look, you're telling inmates something the majority, snitches, you know, and then ditches we've heard all of that, they don't speak. But they are those as Larry speaks too, who can get benefits inside of the facility by cooperating with the authorities.

So if you plan in a elaborate escape maybe you tell a couple of close friends, "Hey I know these people." And, you know, what these inmates are known to associate with the few of those guys. So you tell people who people in the prison know that you speak too. But you give them the wrong information and that something that they could have done too.

BANFIELD: Throwing off the trail and making --

JACKSON: Absolutely. BANFIELD: Larry Levine and Joey thank you both, I really appreciate it. Again that update in the news not much of an update. Sorry I can't give much other than we don't have them we're looking further a field of this point. And Joyce Mitchell has a new place to call home and it's about 140 mile drive from where her husband is if his going to be visiting her anymore at all.

[12:40:07] Given the fact the reporting on a murder for higher plot was discussed between Mitchell and between these two inmates, I just confirmed by the D.A. anybody's guess.

Coming up next, not only as Rachel Dolezal denying that she's white, now she's even casting doubt on whether her white mom and her white dad are even her real parents. Where is this going?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Former NAACP Leader Rachel Dolezal continues to defend herself against claims that she has lied about her race.

Dolezal telling NBC News that she identifies as a black woman. And also has doubts over whether her white parents are actually her biological parents.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAVANNAH GUTHRIE, NBC NEWS: You doubt whether those Ruthanne and Larry who say they are your parents. You doubt whether they are your parents?

RACHEL DOLEZAL, FORMER NAACP LEADER: I have -- I don't -- I'm just saying I can't prove that.

GUTHRIE: There's a birth certificate that has your name on it and their names on it. Why would you doubt something so fundamental?

DOLEZAL: I'm not saying that -- that I can't prove they're not. But I don't know that I can actually prove they are. I mean, the birth certificate of this is issued a month and a half after I'm born. And certainly there were no medical witnesses to my birth, if it was in the list.

[12:45:03] GUTHRIE: What do you think your parents might be?

DOLEZAL: Well I don't know, you know, like said I just don't feel like I can necessarily say now with the full scrutiny of can you prove that you are Larry's said biological child, that actually is never been proven.

GUTHRIE: It's one thing to embrace the question of an academic matter, right? It's another thing to just actually be honest and transparent about who you are. And I think that's what are people are having trouble with you Rachel, I think they feel that you have been, for whatever reason and perhaps wonderful reasons acting like you're something that you are not. DOLEZAL: Right. Well I'm definitely, I'm not white, I did nothing about being white describes who I am. So, you know, what's the word for it, you know, I mean the closest thing that I can just come to is, if your black or white.

I'm black, I'm more black than I am white. So on the level of values, lived experience currently, I mean just in this moment that's the answer, that's the accurate answer from my truth. But I do ask, I mean I hope that the dialogue continues to push against what is race, what is ethnicity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I'm not sure that's were the dialogue is going on this one. I'm not white? When so many people had seen evidence of who she was as a younger person, she herself was forced to look at that evidence on The Today's Show. And said she was 16 in younger pictures, there she is beside her African-American husband. And she is I don't know call me crazy, white.

It's a little like that moment when she was asked the question, so simply are you an African-American woman? And she said, I don't understand the question, this is what annoys people about the story among other things.

This morning Rachel's own brother, Ezra Dolezal, told CNN's NEW DAY that his sister is too nervous to tell the whole truth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EZRA DOLEZAL, RACHEL DOLEZAL'S BROTHER: I think she doesn't -- she's too nervous to just admit that she is not been telling the truth which is why she keeps on making that more and more lies to help fit the story as it goes. Like she was changing her story multiple times with (inaudible) past week, like she did say a lot of things differently yesterday that she had said before.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Like what?

E. DOLEZAL: Like originally she did say that she was born black. And now then yesterday she was mentioning about being -- about identify yourself as black. But originally she didn't just say that she was born black.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Joining me now from Spokane Washington to talk about this Rachel controversy, is former NAACP colleague Kitara Johnson, who started the petition calling for Dolezal's recognition from the civil rights advocacy group.

Kitara, thank you for being with us.

Are you -- do you have any further answers now since these interviews have been conducted and since this woman has spoken of her truth. KITARA JOHNSON, NAACP MEMBER: It's interesting that she says her truth as an academic. And as a person who was actually a professor at a university to stand and say this is my truth, then that means that you know that you're telling a lie. And it's simple is that every time and that first interviewer she says, that she's going to open up and she's going to come and tell her story.

Every time she was post with a simple question, where she was suppose to tell the truth, she would state that it's much more complex than that.

That let's me know that she has -- at first I thought, you know, maybe this is a psychological disorder. But now I'm convinced that she's a common artist, because you're fully aware of what you're doing, because that story gets even more ridiculous as the date went on, the more she get interviews. And then to say that you have lived and experienced of an African-American is just ridiculous.

I mean in Spokane, we wanted to forgive Rachel. And I have forgiven her. Now it's just like I shake my head and I just want to turn and walk away. It's so hard to listen to her without bursting into laughter. And at this point she's made a comedy spectacle of herself.

And for people who have to wake up every day understand we cannot change it, we cannot wash it off. So just bring up something like trans Rachel, it's unfair. I mean if I put on make up and I said, you know, I'm going to be white today, I couldn't pass that off, if I had an accent I can pass off.

[12:50:03] BANFIELD: I want to ask you, and I've asked other guests this as well. And particularly you as a -- an African-American woman and a leader, is the outrage that is so palpable, there's a cacophony over the across this country, is the outrage proportional to this so called prime?

JOHNSON: You know, yes it is because we need to hold our lead versus (ph) accountable. I mean you have to have integrity. And you have to able to stand, because people can't follow you or listen to anything you say if every word that you say contradicts itself. And you were telling a lie within a lie.

Every interview I've seen of her, she starts a story. And now she says, "It's my truth," and then to try speak tears I don't believe that this woman is even capable of human emotions. And I'm just being honest and I try my best to preserve everyone's character. But people are outraged in Spokane, because she is bringing discredit upon our entire city and as if we were all fool.

The truth and the matter is the Spokane residence are not crazy, we weren't fooled, we just didn't care, her race was neither here nor there we could careless about the color of her skin. Now what we were concern about is, if you represent an organization as a leader and you say that you're advocating for people, how can we believe any statistic that coming out of your mouth, if you can't even tell truth, whether you understand the question whether you're black or white.

BANFIELD: And I think it's just had for anybody, to be lied too, bold face lied to such us I'm not white.

Kitara Johnson thanks for being with us, I appreciate you taking the time.

JOHNSON: Oh no problem, thank you.

BANFIELD: Thank you, as a fifth juror has now been dismissed in the Colorado theater shooting trial, there are some incredibly disturbing detail about what James Holmes told his own psychiatrist in the month before he went into that theater and killed so many people, could Dr. Lynne Fenton have stopped him?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:55:50] BANFIELD: The Colorado movie theater shooter apparently was obsessed with killing people and thought about it three to four times a day and did not keep that a secret.

James Holmes actually told someone, his psychiatrist and he did it just month before the attack.

This is day 33 of his trial. And it was witness number 206 who captivated everyone's attention in that court room. Dr. Lynne Fenton was that psychiatrist who treated Holmes for three months from March 2012 to June 2012. And one month later he opened fire into that crowded theater and killed 12 people.

Relatives of some of the victims have filed suite against the University and against Dr. Fenton, saying that she should have done more to stop him. While Holmes was in sentence care, here are couple of the things that he purchased for the attack. Tear gas, grenade, a gas mask kit and on June 6, 2012 handcuffs, roadsters with eight spikes and a trauma bandage. Granted he gave some thought after the care. But some of those things were bought during care. Five days after he left.

Holmes has his last therapy session and dropped out of the treatment just five days after. Fenton says she has no clue about his purchases. She didn't know at the time. She didn't know about his plans and therefore could not force him to be locked up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. LYNNE FENTON, JAMES HOLMES PSYCHIATRIST: To qualify for a mental health hold, they need to have a couple of things. And one is evidence that it's not just a thought but they have a plan. There's moving towards action on those thoughts.

And then second thing is, there has to be a specific target. And he all along had denied both of those.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: HLN Legal Analyst and Defense Attorney Joey Jackson joins me now.

I understand what she's saying. But if you're someone in that gallery who either lost a leg, can't walk anymore, was shot, lost a baby --

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: You may not be so understanding.

BANFIELD: -- lost a loved one. You may not understand any of it. What exactly does that threshold she was describing mean.

JACKSON: Well let's start here, let's start with the privilege. And it's important to talk about this Ashleigh in a very balanced way because I think the first reaction is, why didn't she tell anybody? Is she kidding? He mentioned that he thought about killing people three of four times a day and she said nothing. How dare her.

The importance of the privilege is to protect the information that's conveyed to you. If you're a doctor and you're treating someone, you want them to be forth coming, you want them to be honest. You don't want to chill that communication because in order to treat them, you need to know what you need to treat.

Similar to the Attorney client confidentiality in that privilege and it's an expression. If two people you never lied to, your lawyer and your doctor because both can save your life. But if you don't know the full details you can't.

Now let's move on into whether she has an obligation to report which is the threshold and there's a saying and it says "The privilege ends with the public parole begins." The privilege ends with the public parole begins. So if you believe that your client represents a danger to him or herself or to other, that's where your obligation begins but if you're merely rambling about it that's what they're seeing you for because you have a psychiatric issue that's why you're there.

BANFIELD: Here's my problem. I completely understand what you're saying but that parole for me might have begun at him reading and speaking about the Unabomber and about Tylenol terrorist. At some point so much fantasy, so much strange behavior, so much aggression that has to cause parole.

JACKSON: It's absolutely but is it eminent. Do you really believe they're going to carry it out. And I understand you don't get punished for your thoughts because many people have very tragic and terrible thoughts, you get punished for your actions. Do I believe as your treating physician you're going to carry them out. If I do I have to tell. If I don't, I am ethically bound to protect it.

BANFIELD: This conversation --

JACKSON: Something for the lawsuit though, we know that, multiple.

BANFIELD: I'm just going to say this conversation is going to be litigated in that lawsuit against the University and against Dr. Fenton.

Joey Jackson is traveling. Thank you. Appreciate the insight.

And thank you anyone for watching my colleague Wolf Blitzer takes it from here.