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City in Mourning over Church Shooting Victims; Dylann Roof Under Arrest Tonight for Allegedly Murdering Nine People at Emanuel AME Church; Confederate Flag Still Flies over State Capital. Aired 10- 11p ET
Aired June 18, 2015 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN breaking news.
[22:00:00] DON LEMON, CNN TONIGHT SHOW HOST: It is 10 p.m. here in Charleston, South Carolina. A community reeling after the massacre of nine people at the Emanuel AME Church, which just right behind me.
This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon. Thank you so much for joining us. We have CNN exclusive video from inside the bible study just moments before that deadly rampage. You can see the suspect in the corner. He is 21-year-old Dylann Roof, captured this morning about 245 miles away in North Carolina and flown back here just a short while ago.
The killings being investigated as a hate crime now. Three men and six women shot to death after the gunman sat with them for an hour.
Tonight I'm going to the grieving friends of those victims. And I want to begin tonight with the powerful of information from on the suspect, on the suspect Dylann Roof.
His uncle, Carlston Carls, (ph) here's what he's telling The Washington Post, and this is quote. He says, "I'd be the executioner myself if they will allow it." Here with me now is CNN's Martin Savidge. Before we got that exclusive video, that is a very powerful human...
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
LEMON: Isn't it?
SAVIDGE: Absolutely. I mean, you know, the family member clearly is a person who has realized that this is horrendous and to have someone to add kill him myself if I could.
LEMON: Yes. Let's talk about this video now taken inside of this church behind us. And this is just really moments before it happened. He -- they welcomed him in. He embrace himself and you see can him in the video.
SAVIDGE: Yes. There's actually two things that we have going on. You know, we spoke earlier to Sylvia Johnson. And she is the cousin of the Reverend Clementa Pinckney and she has talk to witnesses who were inside and she sort of recounts from listening to those witnesses exactly what transpired. We all know it's a bible study that's why they were all there. And that's apparently why Roof there. Everything goes fine until the bible study comes to an end and that's when Roof apparently begins the shootings. One chilling to tell he reloads five times.
LEMON: Oh, my God.
SAVIDGE: To think of someone shooting and then carefully reloading and then firing again five times is almost beyond comprehension. And then at one point, there's a young man, a parishioner, who have jumps up and says, stop, stop. And apparently the quote that he's attributed to the gunman he says, no, he says, you are raping our women, you are taking over our country. I have to do what I have to do.
And then he shot and killed that young man. After the spree is over, he then is allegedly going out the door. There's an elderly woman he turns to her and says, have I shot you? And she says, no.
LEMON: Is this the woman he spares?
SAVIDGE: The woman he spares and says, well, "Then you're going to live and tell other what happened. I'm going to kill myself." He did not.
LEMON: He did not. And then later they caught up with him. It's interesting, the quote that you gave about you're raping our women, you're taking our country away. Because that is the one -- that is the quote that I think got this to be -- to the hate crime level. Correct?
SAVIDGE: This is when, you know...
LEMON: It's really a terrorist act.
SAVIDGE: It was not just that you had a white man walk into a black church and begin killing black people.
SAVIDGE: There was more to it than that. And it was clearly what was said, how he said it and the actions in which he took that have launched not only an investigation, of course, with the murders of nine people, but now a federal investigation for the possibility of a behave crime.
LEMON: Just chilling. Martine Savidege, thank you. I appreciate that information. Martin Savidge with the investigation tonight. And now the victims of the Charleston Church shooting range in age from 26 to 87 years old. The youngest is Tywanza Sanders. He seems to have a really bright future. He graduated from college just last year and he was really bright young man.
Joining me now is his close friend A.J. Harley and T.J. Grant. I wish I could have met you guys under better circumstances. Thank you so much for joining us here.
T.J. GRANT, FRIEND OF TYWANZA SANDERS: Thanks for having us.
LEMON: How are you guys doing this evening?
GRANT: Taking our time.
A.J.HARLEY, FRIEND OF TYWANZA SANDERS: Doing as good as we possibly can right now. Just thinking about the family. As primary right now. Just thinking about everyone's family, thinking about our Charleston family. Growing up here, you know, you hear about tragedies and things that happen around the country. But you never expected to happen at home.
And then on top of that you never expected to be one of your best friends is just, is really tough.
LEMON: Let's talk about the kind of guy was -- obviously, he was a man of faith, right?
LEMON: Because that's what -- he was here. At the thing that I -- that's interesting to me is that even in death he is shedding some light on -- as to what happened here when you look at what happened with his Snapchat, the exclusive video that we're talking about. Many people think that that's from God to know -- to get to know what happened in there.
GRANT: I would agree with that. Down to the, you know, is last Snapchat which I wasn't able to see until really like a couple of minutes ago down to the -- his last Instagram post. It just all was like.
[22:05:03] HARLEY: Coming in.
LEMON: Tell me what kind of guy your friend was.
GRANT: Loving friend. he love the family.
LEMON: You're talking about the Instagram post but I was thinking the Snapchat, you mean there's a different post?
HARLEY: Yes. There's a different post also
LEMON: Pardon me, and what was that?
HARLEY: I should have told you.
LEMON: All right. So, while he's looking at it, well, tell me about it.
GRANT: Loving friend, the family, he really loves his family. To mom really, he loves his mom. He talks about his mon every day that he get a chance to talk to his mom, goes to his mom all the time. Anything you asked him to do, he would do. You just -- if you met him you knew you had a good friend on your side regardless of anything. He made you smile even when you didn't. He want to smile, happy all of the time. Always smiling.
LEMON: Yes. I'm going to show this. This is the post and it's from Jackie Robinson and it says, a life is not important except in the impact it has on other's lives. So, it just went off, But anyway, that's the quote right there. And it's from one day ago just before this happened.
HARLEY: It would have been a couple hours before he actually went to the church.
LEMON: Yes. How's your family?
HARLEY: I was actually surprised that I went to go visit with my family, my daughter and wife and she was level headed. I was actually surprise because I don't know how she's still strong, you know, with dealing with this, but, you know, I think it is still, you know, kind of early. I don't think it's really sunk in -- she had a lot of family support there, it was good.
LEMON: Was that he -- now I have heard from different people that he may have been trying to save his aunt or help someone else in the room and that's.
HARLEY: Yes, I was told that he was trying to protect his aunt, but, I mean, not of them made it.
LEMON: It that Susie...
HARLEY: It was Susie Jackson. Yes. 100 percent
GRANT: Like I was said before, he got you back no matter what, he tries his hardest to make you laugh when you're not feeling good or whatever. I mean, he's just a great guy.
LEMON: Have you been watching the coverage? Have you seen the guy that says he's the shooter, he's the killer?
HARLEY: Yes, sir.
GRANT: Yes, sir.
LEMON: They caught him. what do you think of him, what would you say to him?
GRANT: I'm glad they caught him. Hopefully, he just realized what he have done. Hopefully he can apologize or give us some explanation about why he would do some things like that, it just doesn't make sense at all.
LEMON: Yes. What does this community need now in line of this? What, you know, I hate to -- I know it's cliche of you, what could come out of this, but it's just a horrible thing, what was needed?
HARLEY: Honestly, there has already been good. I've seen the community come together, stronger. It's just like, you know, a little but more tighten in it. People assume because we're in the south, it was this big. Race stereotism that we have in Charleston, but you get it everywhere.
HARLEY: But for the most part the way we grew up like, you know, white, black kids, we're all together, you know. The way that everybody was grieving, my white friends, black friends, Indian friends, Asian friends, everybody has been reaching out to me. Our friends, our family just trying to make sure that we're OK and trying to just put it. Let everybody know that Charleston is going to make this as we are always doing.
LEMON: Thank you. I appreciate you.
HARLEY: Thanks for having us.
GRANT: Thank you, sir.
LEMON: Our hearts are with you. I will in touch with you.
LEMON: Thank you very much. You know, this is really shocking. It has shocked people all across America as they, they said, especially people here, but all across America.
So, joining me now to talk about this. This is Joshua DuBois, he's a former director of the White House Office of Faith based in neighborhood partnerships, and CNN legal analyst, Sunny Hostin is going to join me in just a little bit.
But, Joshua, you know, last night, as we were all trying to figure out what had happened here, Joshua was one of the first people that shed some light on this in a series of tweets. So, tell us about the tweets.
JOSHUA DUBOIS, WHITE HOUSE OFFICE OF FAITH FORMER DIRECTOR: Yes. You know, I grew up in the AME. My father is an AME pastor. He's now in Nashville, Tennessee, but he used to pastor in South Carolina.
And so, after the massacre I was on the phone with him. And he, in turn, was on the phone with folks, you know, in Charleston and who had sort of, you know, direct contact with some of the folks who had been a part of the escape and had survived.
So, I was sort of reporting contemporaneously of some of the things that he was telling about what had happened in the church. He was obviously very hazy and, you know, folks were still processing the situation. But that's what those tweets are all about. My conversation with my father and his conversation with folks on the ground.
LEMON: Hey, Joshua, do you think churches are going to need some kind of security will they be less open in the future? Less welcoming of strangers or, you know, that's what churches do, welcome strangers in either regardless of the danger?
[22:09:56] DUBOIS: Yes. You know, I know churches are not going to do. They're not to be intimidated. They're not going to be afraid but I think they are going to be more careful. There's a phrase in the AME Church that is said in almost in almost every worship service.
The doors of the church are open. And I think they will continue to open their doors but they're going to take some strategic steps to make sure that their congregations are as safe as possible.
I've been on the phone over the last 12 hours with many pastors who are thinking through exactly what those steps might be. But it's not just about, you know, protecting their congregations. They're also speaking to the broader issues of supremacy that have sort of exploded in this situation and they want to have an impact on those issues as well.
LEMON: It's really -- and you just said an act of supremacy. I agree with you, but it's also an act of cowardice.
LEMON: As well, for someone to do that. So much emotion you heard from, you know, the loved ones of friends of one of the victims here today. The police officers, political leaders, even from the President of the United States, your former boss. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I've had to make statements like too many times. Communities like this have had to endure tragedies like this too many times. We don't have all of the facts, but we do know that, once again, innocent people were killed in part, because someone wanted to inflict harm had no trouble getting their hands on a gun.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: This is the 14th times, Joshua, that President Obama had spoken after a shooting. What do you think he would really like to say?
DUBOIS: Well, you know, he said it and I thought it was a very courageous statement. And what the president was basically is that we can't just keep going after killers and not talk about the weapons that they are using to kill people and the ideology that motivates them as well. He went onto quote from Dr. Martin Luther King after the brutal murder and bombing of four little girls with in Birmingham with King saying that, listen, we can't just address the folks who killed these girls. We have to address the systemic issues that underlie these issues.
And I think that's the case in Charleston as well. This is not just a lone gunman. This is not just an isolated incident. This man was motivated by an ideology and he was motivated, unfortunately, by our racial past in this country that have not yet dealt with. And I think that's what the president was eluding to today, both that and the issue of guns. And I'm glad he said it.
LEMON: Yes. Sunny is here with me. Sunny, is this terror? I think it is.
SUNNY HOSTIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I think it is. I mean, I've seen that debate. Is this really domestic terrorism and certainly this was motivated clearly by race. But also to inflict fear on a community. And isn't that a political? And so, I think at any definition that you look I think we need to call it what it is, which is domestic terrorism.
LEMON: How should this be prosecuted? Do you think -- and will they seek the death penalty do you think in this?
HOSTIN: I think there's no question that they will seek the death penalty. I mean, we're talking about a mass murder here. We're talking about nine people. What's interesting though, South Carolina doesn't have a hate statute, only of, you know, five states that don't have a hate crime statute.
But I don't think these needs to be prosecuted as a hate crime statute. You can prosecute under the hate crime statue. You can prosecute this case, Don, as a first degree murder case.
LEMON: Nine times.
HOSTIN: Nine times.
HOSTIN: And you still get the harshest penalty, which is the death penalty.
LEMON: Sunny is been here on the ground with me. She's going to be here on the ground with me. Such really, wonderful, beautiful people and you heard from Tywanza's friends. I mean, it's just...
HOSTIN: It's really a beautiful place. I've had the opportunity to speak to many people. It's very progressive. And people are reeling from it. But a lot of people are shocked. Grant it, there is a history here, but people are telling me that white, black, all races have come together.
HOSTIN: And, you know, there really is a sense of hope.
LEMON: All right, Sunny. Thank you, Sunny. We'll continue to join us and we'll be coming live in CNN. Thank you, Joshua. I appreciate both of you joining us here on CNN. We have more live from Charleston when we come right back. The incredible story of how the church massacre suspect was captured.
DEBBIE DILLS, SPOTTED DYLANN ROOF WHILE DRIVING: He answered the prayers of those people that will Charleston in last night that were in those circles holding hands and praying. God heard the prayers of those people. And He just used us as disciple to get His work done.
[22:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Our breaking news here in Charleston, South Carolina. A city grieving tonight over the massacre of nine people inside the historic Emanuel AME Church. The alleged gunman, 21-year-old, Dylann Roof, back in South Carolina tonight following his arrest, this morning, in North Carolina.
A shop by driver on the way to work spotted Roof's car. She called her boss who alerted police. And then moments ago, I spoke to the driver, Debbie Dills and Todd Frady. He is the owner of Frady's Flors.
Let me just say right off that I think you guys are heroes and I think most people will agree with me. But, Debbie, can you explain to me, you're on your way to work. What happened?
DILLS: I was just on my way to work, taking my normal route to work on Highway 74, coming into King's Mountain. And just - on my way to work and I had -- had a lot -- I had heard the news about the shootings in Charleston last night when I left charge my sales and I had lot of it on my mind.
And I had really been praying for the people. I was praying for him actually when I had seen the car and I had watched a lot of news coverage about the shootings and stuff and I had seen the pictures of the car, and I've seen the pictures of the young man.
I had seen all that. And I was coming to work; I don't normally pay a lot of attention. I'm not the most observant person in the world. And I've seen the car and I didn't know my attention to the car. And I've seen that it was black and then I also seen that it has a South Carolina license plate on it which kind of make look again. I made in my mind I was thinking though, that's not...
LEMON: Were you scared?
DILLS: ... that can't be. Not at that time. It just kind of a little, maybe a little jitter, nervous thinking about everything that had been going on. So, just the fact that, you know, it was similar to what I had seen on TV. But I never dreamed that it would be the car.
[22:20:00] LEMON: But you thought that it might be him. So, did you pick up the phone and what happened? How did you and Todd connect? Did you pick up the phone and call him and say, oh, my gosh, I think I've -- Todd, what did she say to you?
TODD FRADY, CALLED IN INITIAL TIP OF DYLANN ROOF'S WHEREABOUTS: When she calls me she said, you know, I think of this is the guy from Charleston who shot the people. She is right beside me. And so, I told her, where are you? And so, she had pulled off by then. I said we have to call the police, I said, to notify them that, you know, it may be him.
And of course, our conversation lately, you know, may not be him and she wonder, you call for somebody that it wasn't him. I said, it could be. So, we -- you know, called the police while she was on the phone and she got back on 74, you know, and had to catch with him catch up with them. He had probably traveled, you know, four or five miles before he could catch up with him. And police stay with the whole time.
LEMON: Yes. So, you told her to go back and -- go back to make sure it was him. And you made her follow, but you said don't get alongside of him as I understand. And so, Debbie, you were trailing him to trying to get a license plate, trying to get a look at him, what?
DILLS: Well, he didn't make me follow him. He just said, I told him I didn't know what to do. I told him after I got off of the business exit, I told him that I was going to go back out onto 74. And that's when he called the police. I was going to go back out to 74 and see if I could catch up with him and at least get a tag number.
Because, I mean, there was just something inside of me that say it wasn't just -- it just didn't look right to me. I had seen the little tag on the front of his car and everything was just, you know, kind of, and I even noticed the haircut that he had from watching it on the news. So, everything inside of me said it's possible, but everything inside of me didn't want to believe it either. So, no. He didn't make me do that.
FRADY: A suggestion.
DILLS: He just, you know, he, I mean, I said, I'm going to do that and then I said, but he stayed on the phone with me and he stayed on the phone with the King's Mountain Police. What is that?
LEMON: So, you finally got the license number. He's on the phone with police; he's also on the phone with you. And you finally get the license plate number and the description and all of that. And then police, I guess, realize that this is the guy because of your help, how long did it take the police to get there and resolve all of this and get him?
DILLS: They were right there within seconds. I mean, I got actually was right behind him at a stop light. And I am very nervous. I would say that, I was nervous, but I was able to get his tag number and write down the tag number. So, all within like maybe 10, 15 minutes, I mean, joining on the spot. The King's Mountain Police and the Shelby State Police or, they were there.
LEMON: Out of all of the people as you two, I mean, as Debbie, as you too, Todd, you guys worked as a team. Out of all of the people, it was you. So, I think I read where you said, God had a plan. It put you guys in the right place at the right time. Do you believe that, what do you make of that?
DILLS: Oh, I know that. That's what it was. It was Him all the way; it was Him from the beginning. It was Him from the time I left my house this morning. It was Him that made me look at that car. It was God who made happen. Don, it has nothing to do with Debbie, it doesn't have to do with Todd, and it's all about Him.
He made this happen. He answered the prayers of those people that were praying in Charleston last night that were in those circles holding hands and praying. God heard the prayers of those people. And He just used us as vessels to get His work done.
LEMON: Well, you two amazing people. And thank you, thank you both. I really appreciate you joining us in CNN. All the best to you, OK?
DILLS: Thank you.
FRADY: Thank you very much.
LEMON: And now I want to bring in John Mullins. He knows the suspect, Dylann Roof, and he joins me now by phone. John, you were classmates of Dylann. What can you tell us about it?
JOHN MULLINS, CLASSMATE OF CHURCH SHOOTING SUSPECT DYLANN ROOF: I mean, he was just an average teenager, I guess. I mean, the stuff now that's coming all the things that he's done, it was anything anybody could have pictured back then. I mean, it's just crazy.
LEMON: What do you mean it wasn't anything anyone could have pictured back then? What was his personality like?
MULLINS: Like he was just calm, I guess. And many had -- I had to talk people today, he had that kind of wild tantrums to where it was like the carelessness about things. For that it was just like -- I think it was a teenager attitude kind of thing. But it never thought someone that he would go out and like murder all of these people like that. And I don't know, man. It's just, it's insane.
[22:25:04] LEMON: when was the last time you saw him and was there anything odd about him that thought?
MULLINS: I mean, everyone's got their odd personalities, in my opinion, but I can't -- I never really back then I never really judged him for being different on most people. I mean, but, now...
LEMON: What do you mean by different than most people?
MULLINS: I mean, he was still kind of quiet and stuff. He wasn't the most popular boy in school by any means.
LEMON: Yes. There are photos of Dylann wearing -- we have a jack we can put it up. He's wearing a parricide era jacket -- with a part side symbols on it. You can see that there was a Confederate Flag as well on his license plate.
LEMON: Were you ever aware of any hatred that he had towards black people?
MULLINS: No. Because the odd thing about that is, back in high school, I mean, he would make kind of racist slurs as jokes, but they were never taken seriously in any form of manner. And not only that, I knew him through black friends of mine that he was cranking as well. And he was kind of -- I don't know, it's weird. But, I mean, a lot of things...
LEMON: What kind of racist jokes? What do you mean it made racist jokes and it wasn't weird? What kind of jokes?
MULLINS: I mean, it's not that it's wasn't weird, it's just that the way he said them that it wasn't like. I don't know how to properly say it. I mean, he was saying around our black friends and stuff and they weren't taken serious. It was just kind of -- they would crack jokes to him and he would crack jokes to type of thing.
LEMON: So, it was mutual between you are jocular with it, black and white friends and it was to refer you add. Is that what you're saying?
MULLINS: Yes. It was just of like, someone call it shit talking.
MULLINS: Have you heard from any of his friends, any of his black friends, since you say he had black friends that he would joke with? Have you heard from since this happened?
MULLINS: I actually do attend college with one of them. I'm not going to disclose his name over the air like this. But we were talking about him part of that very much scared. But it was before this happened (ph) because I know another Dylann Roof they both went to the same high school together. And we were talking about the two different ones. So, that's like really the - escalate all the matters (ph) we even talked about him since high school.
LEMON: Hey, John, I've got to go, but I want to ask you, was Storm really his middle name?
MULLINS: Was Storm?
MULLINS: Yes, it's true. His middle name is really Storm?
MULLINS: I believe so, yes.
LEMON: OK. All right. Because that's one of the web sites for a neo- Nazi group. The Storm Troopers and we were just wondering. But thank you very much.
MULLINS: OK. Goodbye.
LEMON: Go ahead. All right.
MULLINS: I just want to say I know a few people named Storm so I wouldn't let it, ask (ph) that might be his middle name, but like you just said that there's a neo-Nazi term, he maybe be using it but.
LEMON: Yes. All right, John Mullins. Thank you very much.
Charleston Police and federal authorities called the church massacre a hate crime. But is it also an act of domestic terrorism. We're going to get into that deeper next.
[22:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DON LEMON, CNN TONIGHT SHOW HOST: Welcome back everyone to our live coverage, our live breaking news coverage from Charleston. Dylann Roof under arrest tonight for allegedly murdering nine people at Emanuel AME Church, right behind me. Killed because they were black.
Meanwhile, in the state capital of Colombia, a little over a hundred miles away, the Confederate Flag still flies. Let's talk about that.
Martin Luther King III is with me. He is a global human rights activist and he is the eldest of the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Also with me is Cedrick Alexander, the president of the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement executives and public safety director of DeKalb County, Georgia. And, Mark Pitcavage, the director of the Center on Extremism for the Anti-Defamation League.
I've been looking forward to speaking with you gentlemen tonight. I really want to have this conversation about whether this is terrorism or not and what this means really to the country.
Mr. King, I'll start with you. Your father gave a speech at this church 1962. What would his response be now?
MARTIN LUTHER KING III, GLOBAL HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST: You know, again, I don't know that any of us can see what his response would be. But he would certainly be greatly moved. And the first thing he would do certainly is to say send his condolences to the families and be focused on the families.
But then secondly, to look at what is creating this climate in America of hatred that is fostered over and over and over? He used to say that I can't be critical of the world without realizing that my own nation is the greatest purveyor of violence on the planet. That's a very strong statement that was said in 1966 or '67.
LEMON: Yes. I want to ask you because -- listen, let me ask you this. Because I want to get other panelist and give everyone time here. I've been speaking to some people and they're very concerned that our country is maybe on the brink of some sort of race war. Do you think that that's hyperbole? Or do you that it could happen?
KING: Well, I don't want to -- what I believe is that certainly anything could happen. But I think that Americans and I think South Carolina today showed us Charleston, when people black, white, Latino, and Hispanic, Asian, young or old, came together to engage with the tragedy.
People don't want to and should not ever accept tragedies. We are a better nation than the behavior that we saw from this one young man today who obviously had been -- this has been promoted to create this kind of hatred in America.
[22:35:01] LEMON: Right. Mark, I want you to talk to us about this at Apartheid Era flag patches at Dylann Roof war, what's the significance of these symbols?
MARK PITCAVAGE, CENTER ON EXTREMISM ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE: Well, he on the photograph of himself that he put on his Facebook profile, he had a jacket with two patches on them. One patch was the flag of the Apartheid era government of South Africa, and the other patch was the flag of the former British colony Rhodesia, which became the country of Zimbabwe.
And both of these entities where the countries essentially ruled by white supremacists. And one does not accidentally or coincidentally choose those to put on their body. There's a purpose behind that. There's an attempt behind. And we believe that those are some indications that he had some adherence to white supremacists ideologies.
LEMON: Cedrick, he also had a Confederate Flag on his license, by the way, that same flag is flying at the State House in the grounds tonight, at full step, no less. What does that flag mean to you, Cedrick?
CEDRIC ALEXANDER, NATIONAL ORGANIZATION OF BLACK LAW ENFORCEMENT EXECUTIVES PRESIDENT: Well, I tell you what it means to me and many Americans across this country. Of course, we all know that Confederate Flag has long a history of separation to talk. And it speaks certainly to the past history of slavery in this country in particularly in the south.
And it's been an ongoing debate in regards to the Confederate Flag, still, still so to this day. But let me say this. You know, I think at the end of the day and all of this, Don, we really have to mindful of there are a lot of good people there in South Carolina, black and white. And there are a lot of people there who will do the right...
LEMON: I agree.
ALEXANDER: ... you know, there are lot of people there who are going to do the right thing whether they carry a flag of near -- or near vehicle or to State Capitol or not. Today, we saw the governor who works right then at State Capitol made herself they are known to that community and was very saddened and tearful in terms of what happened to her great state there today.
So, that flag really didn't indicate anything to me quite frankly. I'm really more concerned about the issues that continue to go on in this country and how are we going to move to these together each day that we wake up.
LEMON: Well, let me ask you this. I want to ask each of you this because I don't have a lot of time and I want to talk about this. But if you can just quickly answer this for me. First, to Mr. King, do you think that this is an act of terrorism?
KING: I do believe that it was terrorism. Just in 1963 when people took bombs and put them in churches and blew up children. But definitely in my judgment this is an act of terrorism.
PITCAVAGE: This tragic act meets all the standard definitions of terrorism. This was a violent act that seems to have been done for ideological reasons. It was a horrendous act of domestic terrorism and also a hate crime. There's no doubt that it was terrorism.
LEMON: And Cedric.
ALEXANDER: Yes, no doubt. I mean, it certainly has all the elements of a terrorist act. It created fear and there was a lost life behind it. But I would also tend to say too, Don, that act of terrorism was also driven by hate. And we know that because that's been evidenced by witness statements that was there in regards to remarks that Dylann Roof made earlier. So, it's for both a combination of terrorism, domestic terrorism and also acts of hate.
LEMON: Thank you gentlemen. I appreciate it. When we come right back, we were going to be live from Charleston, of course, in the wake of this massacre at Emanuel AME. Will the city ever be the same? I'm going to ask the governor, Mark Sanford.
[22:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: We're back now. Joining me now is our representative Mark Sanford of South Carolina, the state's former governor. Good to see you representative governor. So, everybody's watching now. What's your reaction to this? Is this the South Carolina you know?
MARK SANFORD, SOUTH CAROLINA FORMER GOVERNOR: Absolutely not. But part of it, absolutely, yes. So, the shock and horror and the malice beyond belief absolutely not part of the South Carolina I know.
What I saw about an hour ago is people were lighting candles, laying with their grieves, bringing flowers. Folks of all walks of life, young and old, black and white coming together to mourn the loss of what had happened less than 24 years ago. That's the South Carolina I know. LEMON: How long is that going to last? Because as the president came out today and he said, you know, I have spoken at so many of these things. I think it's been 14 since that he's been president.
LEMON: That he had spoken about mass shootings. And we have the candle, you know, not to show because this is it...
SANFORD: Yes, yes.
LEMON: We have that. So, what do we do about guns? What do we do about mental health? What do we do about racism in this country?
SANFORD: I think that those are long questions all of which need to be explored at length. There will be a whole host to policy and legislative remedies. But I think more immediately in the 24-hour window that we're in right now. I think you really need to honor the lives that were lost. You know, Clementa Pinckney, he was a guy that I get to know over eight years in my life when I was a governor and he was a state senator.
He was a man who walked to his faith. You know, Reverend Davis gave us in essence of eulogy. A couple of hours ago he talked about passages in the Book of Job and how all of us could be part of racial healing in this country. Not by trying to change the world. But one neighbor to a neighbor, one business associate to another one.
LEMON: But I would challenge you...
LEMON: ... in saying that you call him Clement, right? Clementa Pinckney, is that he would say if you're going to honor the people who lost their lives here, then you need to address the issues that were important to him. And I think gun violence is one of those. Racism was one of those issues. So then, how do you honor him by dealing with those issues?
SANFORD: What I'm saying is, that's getting off the hook too lightly. To say, you know what, you folks like me to officially take of this for us? I think it's all of us. I think it's what I saw an hour ago again, at the footstep of the church right here behind us.
LEMON: People coming together.
[22:44:58] SANFORD: People coming together in saying, you know what, I can't change the world. I probably can't produce legislation. But what I can do is treat my neighbor just a little bit better than I've been treating. Treat my co-worker a little bit better than I've been treating white, black, whatever the ethnic background. I think that that is part of the formula.
So, I would grant you the point that you're making which is, can there be a legislative remedy on some parts to some of this? Yes, possibly so. But that's solitude making machine it's going to take time. What can happen tomorrow is every one of us can treat each other with a little bit greater dignity and that would go a long way collecting that.
LEMON: OK. Let's about the man behind it.
LEMON: Because it would be disingenuous to say that there isn't a race problem in this country. There's no race problem in South Carolina. That is -- do you see the results of that? So then, now what? When do we stop giving this...
SANFORD: But I don't want take one outline and apply it to the whole. In other words, there are good people in that...
LEMON: We'll see in that...
SANFORD: Right, right. But again, we have 300 million in this country and to take a young person who is incredibly misguided and absolutely evil in his intent. I mean, intent, you get in the car and you drive a 100 miles go to a church that have a great historical significance both with the black community and the community at large, go to a bible study and then murder in essence everybody in the room? There's something wrong. I mean, that is not within the standard deviation of the thug and froze that goes with some people get along and some not get along. So, that's way out there.
LEMON: Yes. I appreciate your candor.
SANFORD: Yes, sir.
LEMON: Thank you for joining me. Come back.
SANFORD: My pleasure. Yes, sir. Thank you.
LEMON: Mark Sanford, we appreciate it.
LEMON: Only three people survived the massacre at Emanuel AME. One of them was a woman who received a chilling message from the shooter. "I'm going to spare you, so can and tell what happened to them." But when we right back, what we've learned about the victims. That's coming out.
[22:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Live in Charleston, where the suspect in the Emanuel AME massacre is accused of killing nine people, reportedly because they were black. Joining me now is Bakari Sellers, a friend of Clementa Pinckney and a former South Carolina State Representative. Also with me is Elliott Summey chairman of the Charleston County Council. Good to have both of you.
ELLIOT SUMMEY, CHARLESTON COUNTY COUNCIL CHAIRMAN: Thanks for having me.
LEMON: Elliot, you were immediately called right after this happened.
SUMMEY: Yes, sir. In Charleston our county runs our EOC, which our Emergency Operation Center, our consolidated 911 system. And we activated EOC immediately because when we heard that the potential of how many deaths it could be, we didn't know how many shoes we had it first and we didn't know what all could occur. Immediately got bumper right after it and ended up not having anything to do with that.
But, yes, we moved quick. It was a tough night. One of the hardest calls I had to make was to some friends of mine Senator Marlon Kimpson about our good friend Senator Pinkney and it's been hard. We lost the county employee, Cynthia Hurd and it's been tough.
LEMON: Yes. It's palpable. Like just talking about it to people, you know, they seem OK. And then all of a sudden you start talking about it and you see people tearing up and becoming emotional. Tell us about it. Well, you call hi Clement.
BAKARI SELLERS, FRIEND OF CLEMENTA PINCKNEY: Well, we all call him Clement. I mean, the voice was a baritone voice and I would say it was so deep because he was carrying the voices of so many unheard in this district. We share districts in Carleton County. About by 95 quarter where we used to have a quarter sharing. And you know that the task was to turn that quarter of Shane where kids go to school, where their heating and air don't work, where their infrastructures falling apart to turn that into a quarter of hope.
Every day Clement was talking about medicated expansion. He was talking about the desperate poor. You know, he was a great man and on Sunday, he's going to have two daughters that won't be able to fix brunch for their father anymore. And that's a tragedy.
And we have nine funerals. And we have nine bodies to bury. I'm only 30 years old, Don, and I'm just tired, I'm weary and it just sucks to have to keep doing this over and over again throughout our country.
SUMMEY: It's hard.
SUMMEY: We lost a former county employee, Reverend Doctor. And we lost a 31-year county employee. And Cynthia Hurd, who was a lot brand who is helping children and adults learn how to read. She got killed because she wanted to go to church. We had church service today at Morris Brown and then I went to church,, my church, Christ's Church and at six, and it's just hard not to cry. But we have to stand strong.
LEMON: Your dad is the mayor of North Charleston?
SUMMEY: The mayor, yes.
LEMON: And you know what; look what happened with Walter Scott. Is this a setback? SUMMEY: No, I don't think so, I think that Charleston is better than
Ferguson. Charleston is better than Baltimore.
LEMON: How so?
SUMMEY: Because we're a community that loves each other.
LEMON: You don't think those communities don't love each other and they just said issues?
SUMMEY: I think I know. I think what it is that we, as a community, embrace each other. When we see tragedy, we pray in the street. And to be honest with you, this gentleman, this gentleman is there.
LEMON: He wasn't from here, he droves...
SUMMEY: He wasn't from here. And that officer that shot Walter Scott wasn't from here. I can't get inside the brain of that officer or this fellow, but I'll tell you right now they're both will deranged. And that's terrible.
SELLERS: Well, I don't necessarily agree with everything my friend says here today. I think there's a lot of love that runs through Ferguson. I think that there a lot of love that runs through Baltimore. I think there's the same runs through Charleston.
But what you're saying is that they are communities that are filled despair. You see that there are communities that are filled with desperation. And that is why this communication is good so that he can understand and those people watching can understand what these communities are feeling.
This anger is palpable. You know that this progress we've made is very fragile. And while we're standing together is because we don't that to fall apart. But this communication has to happen.
LEMON: Yes, sir. We're so glad hear...
SUMMEY: We're not a perfect community but we ,love each and we want make it better.
LEMON: No community is perfect. Elliot, thank you.
SUMMEY: Thank you.
LEMON: Thank you very much Bakari Sellers.
SELLERS: Thank you, Don.
LEMON: I appreciate it. We're going to continue on here with the CNN and we're going coverage of the shooting here tonight as we continue. But this is the end of our show and I want you to listen to the very powerful words of Reverend Clementa Pinckney who called on all of us to end hate. Good night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[22:55:08] REVEREND CLEMENTA PINCKNEY, PASTOR IN AME CHURCH: We got to be brave that He would make Emanuel of all us. That we may be filled with your love. Where we know that only love can conquer hate. That only love can bring all together in Your name.
In regards of our faiths, our disobedience, where we're from together we come in love. Together we come to bury racism, to bury bigotry and to resurrect and to revise love compassion and tenderness.
We pray that you would bless and empower all who are here to reach and to feel the love and to share the love. We ask now in all reverence and holiness. May together, we say, Amen.
[23:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)