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DR. DREW

Massacre Of Nine People In South Carolina Church; A Gunman Opening Fire Inside Of A Historic Black Church In Charleston, South Carolina; The 21-Year-Old Suspect Reportedly Sat In That Group For An Hour Before Announcing That He Was There To, Quote, "Shoot Black People"

Aired June 18, 2015 - 21:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

(21:00:15) DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Good evening. We begin with breaking news. Massacre of nine people in South Carolina church, I know

everyone has heard about this. We are going to get into it, but first, this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Several victims regarding that active shooter. Give me at least four medic units.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE ANCHOR: We do have breaking news this morning. A gunman opening fire inside of a historic black church in Charleston, South

Carolina.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Nine people shot and killed during a bible study.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: A person who would go in and kill people in a house of worship clearly is a threat to anyone on the street.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: A person who will go in and kill people in the house of worship, clearly is a threat to anyone on the street.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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WOLF BLITZER, CNN LEAD POLITICAL ANCHOR: The suspect is now in custody in the massacre at a historic African-American church in Charleston, South

Carolina.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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GREGORY MULLEN, CHARLESTON CHIEF POLICE: We have arrested Dylann Roof.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: And sources tell CNN that he did say at the time that he wanted to kill black people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Now, he did make the statements. He does have social media postings.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: People are tweeting me, they are saying this is not just mass murder. It is not just a hate crime. This is an act of

terror.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE RILEY, CHARLESTON MAYOR: This is unfathomable and unspeakable act by somebody filled with hate and -- and with a deranged mind.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: What is wrong with us? We are going to get into that tonight. And new, we have Snapchat images from the prayer group meeting supplied by

a CNN source. The 21-year-old suspect reportedly sat in that group for an hour before announcing that he was there to, quote, "Shoot black people."

Joining us, Vanessa Barnett, Hiphollywood.com; Samantha Schacher, "Po Trigger" on Hulu.com; Karamo Brown, social worker and television host;

Spirit, psychotherapist. I believe she is on Skype.

I have also invited a few of our regulars here in place of our studio audience to get into this conversation. This is a grave topic. Rolonda

Watts, host of "Sundays with Rolonda" podcast; Lisa Bloom, Civil Rights Attorney at the Bloom Firm, Avvo.com and Attorney Areva Martin. Vanessa, I

am going to start with you. What are you feeling?

VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: It -- it is just overwhelming. It is such an emotional thing and it is --

PINSKY: What is wrong with us? What is wrong with us?

BARNETT: This man is disturbed and it is such a disgusting act of just pure hatred. And, I do not even understand where that level of hatred

comes from at 21 years old, to take the lives of these people that you did not know. You just -- you sat with them.

And, I know they embraced him with love in that church. I know they embraced him with love and wanted to just show him Christ and he turned and

does that after sitting with them for so long. It is unexplainable.

PINSKY: Is this an expression of something that is boiling and roiling within us as Americans or is this just one sick dude? Who wants to comment

on that? I mean, what is wrong? I said, what is wrong? I saw a bunch of first graders shot up. I thought we crossed into a new zone then. Lisa,

know I do not even know what to do with this.

LISA BLOOM, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: We have to call this what it is. It is a racist killing.

BARNETT: Absolutely.

BLOOM: This is a man who had pro-apartheid patches on his jacket. He said he wanted to kill black people. He invoked these old stereotypes about

rape. This is a racist killing. My beef with all the media coverage so far is the fear of using that word, "Racist."

If we do not use that for this man, when can we ever use it? And, we have to talk about the scourge of racism in America. This is not the first

incident. It is not even the first incident this week. I mean, hate crimes against African-Americans in America are more than against every

other group combined. That is the underlying problem.

PINSKY: Yes.

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER" ON HULU.COM: And Dr. Drew, we have 800 active hate groups that are documented. 800 that we know of. 19

in South Carolina alone. And --

PINSKY: Well, let us hope they get guns, because they are entitled to that, right? Let us hope they have some guns, but go ahead, Samantha. I

am sorry.

SCHACHER: No. So, my point is, yes, racism is rampant. We are not living in a post-racial America, clearly. Where is there a place where we can

have solace? First, you know, there is no safety in schools. You cannot even go to a church.

This guy, talk about a wolf in sheep`s clothing, goes and sits with them for an hour before he takes their lives so heinously. It leaves us

speechless and confused and hopeless.

PINSKY: I will tell you a little more about this guy. He was arrested twice this year, once for possession of Suboxone, which is a narcotic used

to taper people off opiate addiction, which so suggests he is or was an opiate addict.

And people on Suboxone or coming off Suboxone are reported to become violent at times, not regularly, not routinely, but it has been reported.

He also is found acting bizarrely at a local mall.

He was arrested for a second time for trespassing at that same mall. Spirit, are you there with me? Nothing but run-in -- Lots of run-ins with

the law. Lots of mental health issue, but nothing to point to mass murder except these racist epithets.

(21:04:56) SPIRIT CLANTON, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: And, this is what happens, Dr. Drew, when mental health issues meets racism meets poor gun control in

this country. And, so this is the worst -- the worst possible scenario here. But, as the other guests have already said on the panel tonight, it

is not the first time and unfortunately, it is not going to be the last.

PINSKY: Karamo.

KARAMO BROWN, SOCIAL WORKER & TELEVISION HOST: I am having an extreme problem of talking about mental health when we talk about this animal. I

cannot even call this animal a man or a person or a boy or whatever the media is trying to stray it, because he is disgusting animal.

To sit in a place and see your prey, as he probably looked at them and know that they, as you said, opening up to show him Christ, to show him love and

then he sat there, this animal, and turned on him. I do not care about his mental illnesses. I do not care about the way the media trying to perceive

him. He is a disgusting man.

And, I am tired of looking at this footage, of seeing the double standards and hypocrisy in our country of this animal being -- not even with chains

on him, being put into a private plane with a bulletproof vest. I am enraged and I am disgusted.

SCHACHER: A private plane.

PINSKY: I am hearing the Eric Garner comparison come spoil around, but go ahead, Areva.

AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: I do not want to suggest that this young man should be in any way relieved of responsibility for his personal actions,

but we have to talk about this in the context of what has been happening in this country, these high-profile cases involving African-American men.

So, when you have the police violating the civil rights of African-American men, they are sending the message that black lives are not valuable. So,

people at home, like this shooter, watching how police treat black men, are emboldened.

They are empowered. They are, you know, encouraged that if the police, the government, acting under color of authority can do this African-American

men, then all the more so they can take these actions.

BARNETT: And, thought it was his duty to do so. He is a terrorist. He actively sought out these people in a place of worship and took their lives

based on the color of their skin and the fact that they love the Lord and he said that he had to do it -- "I have to do what I have to do."

SCHACHER: And, not only did he see it as a duty to your point, but also wanted to boast about it by saving not one victim, so she could then go and

tell the world, so he could get his message across to the masses, which is so disturbing.

BLOOM: In a state that flies the confederate flag from their state house every day.

BROWN: That is exactly it is. That is exactly it is.

BLOOM: That is one of only five states in America that refuses to have a hate crimes law.

BROWN: Exactly.

BLOOM: That is the social context.

BROWN: How disgusting that --

ROLONDA WATTS, HOST OF "SUNDAYS WITH ROLONDA" PODCAST: There is something we do not more about the family. I have been listening to reports all day.

I have not heard one peep about this family --

PINSKY: Except the uncle gave him the gun.

WATTS: The one that gave him the gun.

SCHACHER: The father.

BARNETT: The father.

BROWN: Father.

PINSKY: The father. The uncle said the father gave him.

WATTS: I want to know when he gave that gun to his son as a rite of passage, what he said. Go shoot black people. Was that what he said? Is

that something that is -- the other thing that I also think, Dr. Drew is that, we are seeing in all of these cases that we are seeing of obvious

racial prejudice and preying on black people.

We are seeing children being victimized. Now, we are seeing people praying over a bible getting victimized and I think now people who say, "I am so

tired of this racist stuff," are suddenly going to say, "In a church? With a child?"

PINSKY: In a church?

WATTS: "In a church, over a prayer group and he sat there for one hour?" If one of us is in trouble, every single one of us is in trouble.

PINSKY: Yes.

WATTS: And it is not just a black problem anymore. When you see people sitting around bibles in a prayer group, I mean, pray has a whole different

meaning today. And, I think there are people who cried at that screen, who were just as shocked as -- you know, it is just not a black issue anymore.

I think it is a human issue.

PINSKY: I agree with you. We got a lot more to talk about and if you cannot be safe in your church, in your first grade classroom, where can you

be safe? We are back after this.

(21:08:54) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: The cold-blooded trigger man captured on surveillance camera as he entered Emanuel AME Church. A young white man,

5`9" slender, clean-shaven with sandy blond hair.

The mass murderer soon identified as 21-year-old Dylan Roof. What the shooter said before firing shots, at least police to believe, he killed the

victims because they were black.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: He targeted black people here. He targeted a certain group. He got himself into the church, pretended he was part of

the prayer group that he was interested and then allegedly said, "You know what? I am here to shoot black people because you are raping our women and

you are taking over our country."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Awful. Nine people killed in the massacre Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, South Carolina. I am back with

Vanessa, Sam, Karamo, Spirit, Rolonda, Lisa and Areva.

The suspect reportedly targeting black people. He told a survivor, he let one woman, I believe, have survived, telling her that he was sparing her

life -- one lovely man, so she would be able to tell his story.

Spirit, I want to get you back here. You are out there on satellite. Grandiose, possibly psychotic, filled with hate, sociopath. We can use all

these labels but do they matter?

CLANTON: At the end of the day, they do not matter, Dr. Drew. And, that is the point here, that until we get real about the issue. See, it is one

of those things where we say the lies -- it is hard to believe the truth when we believe the lie for so long. And the fact of the matter is that we

are not safe anywhere in this country.

We like to think that church is a sanctuary that is going to be safe. This is not the first place and the first time that something like this has

happened. It will not be the last. We have to teach people how to protect themselves.

PINSKY: But -- I agree with that. But, I do not want to be a part of the problem here. Areva, something you said is still spinning in my head,

which is that it is in the police brutality, whatever you want to call it, is embolding -- I mean, we had somebody walk into a theater and shoot

people. We have somebody walk into a first grade classroom and shoot people --

MARTIN: Exactly.

PINSKY: -- but that did not embolden somebody to go out and shoot first graders. It is just that there is something wrong with us. There is

something -- the violence, the guns, and the most vulnerable amongst us, the mentally ill, people filled with hate are the ones allowed to run amok

and express what is wrong with us, frankly.

(21:15:12) MARTIN: Well, two points I want to make to that, Dr. Drew. First of all, the Sandy Hook and the Colorado shooting, very different in

the sense that those individuals who were killed were not targeted. We know this young man went into that church and says, "I am here to kill

black people." That makes this a hate crime under federal hate crime statutes.

And, I want to take exception to what Spirit said in terms of this does not matter about these labels, because these labels are going to become very

important when we get into the trial of this man, who has committed nine murders. We are going to start to hear about his past, his mental past and

how that may play into some kind of plea that we should expect, like we see in James Holmes --

(CROSSTALK)

WATTS: What if he is just a freaking racist?

SCHACHER: Yes.

WATTS: What if he is not crazy? Let us look at that.

PINSKY: What if he is an A-hole?

WATTS: Yes. What if he is just -- what if he is just an A-hole?

PINSKY: Yes.

WATTS: Exactly.

BROWN: Well, can we talk about these labels. This is what I am saying. Think about the description that we just heard right now on this show,

young, white male, sandy blond hair, skinny. I mean it is like we are on a dating profile. It does not sound threatening.

We need to call this animal what he is. He is a domestic terrorist and he is disgusting. And, until we start having those conversations, we are

going to keep on having these issues, because we do not really want to talk about racism and these disgusting people in the way that they need to be

talked about.

Our own president got on there and was not able to express what he needs to express and then got on a plane to go do a fundraiser. And, I love my

president, but come on, let us talk about what is really going on in this country.

PINSKY: What should he have said?

BROWN: He should have said that this is an act of domestic terrorism. This man is a racist, and he is an animal and he is disgusting and that

anybody who follow suit is going to be persecuted, because black lives matter, all lives matter and you can stop this.

PINSKY: Karamo. Karamo.

BLOOM: President Obama said very important that we have not talked about yet and that is guns in America.

PINSKY: Oh, yeah.

BLOOM: We have all of these incidents of domestic terrorism. We are the only developed country that has them anymore. Why is it that Americans are

20 times as likely to be victims of gun violence as citizens of other developed country? Because we let animals, we let sociopaths --

PINSKY: That is right.

BLOOM: We let racists, we let shooters have guns.

PINSKY: Why do we -- we let -- we let mentally-ill people get guns.

BLOOMS: We arm our sociopaths in America.

BROWN: Yes.

PINSKY: Yes, we do.

(CROSSTALKS)

WATTS: There are those who say that guns do not shoot people. People shoot people. OK?

PINSKY: Fine.

WATTS: Then you go to a point where there are those who say, boy, if one of those people in that church had been packing, this would not have turned

out thaat way. So, you are going back and forth --

BLOOM: But it happened at Fort Hood, where there are people who are armed. It happened in Colorado in a movie theatre where there are people that are

armed.

PINSKY: Yes.

BLOOM: We do not have to wonder anymore about the impact of having a armed citizen in this country from all the other countries in the world.

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: After the Sandy Hook shoot --

BLOOM: What Obama does --

MARTIN: After the Sandy Hook shooting, there was an effort to have massive gun control laws --

BLOOM: We cannot give up on that.

MARTIN: And it failed. It failed as 20 kids were shot in a school.

PINSKY: Hang on.

MARTIN: This country said, no.

PINSKY: It succeeded in Connecticut, though, right? Did not they?

MARTIN: Federal gun control laws.

PINSKY: Federal, no. But --

MARTIN: Dead on arrival.

PINSKY: Well, then let us do it as --

BLOOM: We cannot give up. We cannot --

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: -- then screw the federal government who -- and by the way, Federal government has not been doing much for me. I do not know about you

guys, but I am just saying. So, we should start locally. We should start states, something for goodness sakes. Let us take care of our local -- we

are such a big --

MARTIN: Easier said than done, Dr. Drew. When you look at the state houses that republicans have been very, very strategic, you look at the

state houses across this country, many of them are incredibly conservative. The gun lobbyists have done their job, and made it incredibly difficult to

build any kind of consensus for gun laws. We are all in agreement. There are guns on the street.

BLOOM: But, we cannot give up.

PINSKY: Consensus. Hold on.

MARTIN: No, we do not give up, but we got to be more strategic. We got to have a conversation that take us to action, not just these emotional

responses after murders have occurred.

WATTS: Wait. We do not give our kids guns but we give them simulated games to play and shoot up people with -- you know, the mentality that we

are creating in this country, it is like the "Game of Thrones" gone America.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: Consensus, so I think is really the issue. In something Karamo said is bringing to my head, too, which is, you know, we are not going to

tolerate racism. Why do not we get together and consensus and not tolerate racism?

BROWN: I agree. Because even -- and I respect everything you ladies have said, but this is what I am talking about. This is what my issue was with

our president. And, I do want us to get together, but we cannot get together unless we stick on the point that this is -- our country is a

racist country. That is the problem. We keep on deviating away from that conversation.

PINSKY: How about not going to tolerate it.

BROWN: People are racist. People are prejudiced. Let us not get away from that.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: OK.

BARNETT: Everybody wants to say that, so much easier to focus on the mental health, and that is why I get upset when I hear it --

BROWN: Exactly.

BARNETT: -- because it humanizes this man. It makes people so sorry for this man. I am sorry, anybody who can kill anyone has some sort of mental

issue, so that is why I agree that he does not -- it is not an issue here - -

PINSKY: Yes.

WATTS: I think the biggest cancer in America -- the biggest cancer in America right now is indifference.

SCHACHER: Yes.

BROWN: Yes.

PINSKY: I think it is fragmentation. Divisiveness.

(CROSSTALKS)

WATTS: I did not see a thing. It is not my problem. I do not know these people.

(21:20:00) SCHACHER: But, Dr. Drew, that is the point. I am so happy you said that, because here his roommate said for the past six months, he has

been very vocal about plotting this that he is an extreme racist and he plotted this. So, if he was so open about this with his roommate, was he

also open about this with other people, with his parents? How did not anybody step forward?

(CROSSTALK)

BLOOM: It is a bright idea to give a racist sociopath a gun for his --

(CROSSTALK)

WATTS: Because his parents do not see him as a racist. The seven of us agree that he is racist, but the rest of the country does not have the same

view that we have.

BLOOM: Because they benefit from racism. Can we call it what it is?

PINSKY: Thank you. Thank you. Call it what it is. Whoa!

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: But, you got to change something, you have to have a strategic plan and we cannot just be emotional about these issues.

PINSKY: Who benefit from --

MARTIN: You and I agree --

BLOOM: White America.

PINSKY: Benefits from racism?

BLOOMS: White America benefits from racism, by having white privilege, by getting a better job.

BROWN: Exactly. Thanks you. That is exactly it is.

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: OK. But, as long as whites are in-charge then how do we change it. It is not enough to keep calling it out. Every time these shooters

occur and that is what Obama said, "I have been here 14 times on these shootings." --

WATTS: And he is tired of it.

MARTIN: And, every time, he shows up, he makes this emotional plea to the country and guess what? Nothing happens. So, we got to move this

conversation pass the emotional plea.

PINSKY: And, we are still talking about unbelievably guns in the wrong happened, but here we are, we are back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(21:25:23) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRES. BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I have had to make statements like this too many times. Someone who wanted to inflict

harm had no trouble getting their hands on a gun.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Police say a gunman opened fire in a movie theater late last night in Aurora, Colorado. 12 are dead. 59 are injured.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: We have breaking news out of Oregon. A gunman opened fire at a mall near Portland tonight. This is like the fourth shooting we have been

covering in six months.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Yesterday, 20 children, six adults, killed, close range, Connecticut school.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: When do we start talking about the gun control issue? When do we talk about mental illness?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: There it is. We are talking about it now. The 21-year-old white man who was invited into an African-American church and then gunned down

nine people, allegedly. Back with Vanessa, Sam, Karamo, Spirit, Rolonda, Lisa and Areva.

And, Vanessa, why? Why are we here again? Here we are with another mass shooting out. Now, here is the deal. I was flipping through Twitter and

people accusing us of being divisive. That is the last thing I think any of us want to be, right?

BARNETT: No.

PINSKY: They are believing that if we keep just saying racism, racism, it is calling things out as opposed to bringing things together. Can we move

-- What is the next move? Can we say, "OK. There is racism. The most vulnerable amongst us are expressing it." What do we do? What do we do

about this?

BARNETT: First of all, this is not divisive. This is us coming together and looking at the multiple levels that are involved in this incident.

Secondly, to call out racism is the first step. We have to say it. It is hard to move past it, because everyone does not want to say it.

Everyone does not want to agree that this man is racism. That is why some people, "Oh, it is a mental health issue." But, if he was black, he would

be a thug. If he was Muslim, he would be a terrorist.

So, he needs to be labeled a racist hate-having person that is a terrorist in this country and then there, we can talk about a next step. But, if

everyone cannot even get on that page, even saying the word racism makes someone say that we are divisive, it is too much --

WATTS: Why cannot we get on the page that a boy killed nine people.

SCACHER: Not a boy, a man. A 21-year-old man.

PINSKY: A man.

WATTS: A person killed nine people --

PINSKY: Yes, it is unbelievable.

WATTS: -- regardless of the color.

PINSKY: Yes.

WATTS: Regardless of where they were. This is an annihilation on humanity.

SCHACHER: But, I am confused why people are seeing that this is not an active racism when you brought it up too. When you look at his Facebook --

WATTS: She brought it up.

SCHACHER: Right. Right. But, what I was going to say, when she brought up -- she brought up the flag on his coat, which we saw on his Facebook

page, the apartheid era, South African flag, the Rhodesian flag. These are all symbols of black oppression. How are people not seeing that?

PINSKY: Spirit, once again. Spirit?

CLANTON: Yes. Can I speak to this? Because part of the problem is the reason why nobody wants to address the issue of racism is because we do

this blanket thing that does become very divisive, and we have to slow the conversation down. We have to acknowledge that racism is a real thing but

not everyone is racist.

And, so if we do not have this conversation within the context to saying this young man was a racist, and we need to deal with the issues of race in

America, but not -- that does not mean that it is a black and white thing, black against white. If we do not figure out how to make this an inclusive

conversation --

PINSKY: Thank you.

CLANTON: -- to deal with racist individuals in this nation --

PINSKY: Yes.

CLANTON: -- we will continue to have people that do not want to deal with the issue because it is too sensitive.

PINSKY: I want to bring in via Skype John Cardillo. He is a former NYPD officer. John, there is a lot of -- really skating around the issue of

guns here. And, particularly, hands in the guns of people, who we all can sort of sensibly go, these guys should not have had guns. Why are we

having those kinds of conversations and how do you see it?

JOHN CARDILLO, FORMER NYPD OFFICER: Well, I wish I was on here under different circumstances, horribly tragic. You know, in terms of the

offender, I really do agree tonight with Spirit and Rolonda. They are echoing my thoughts, almost in a letter.

But, we also have to look at this in the context of America and the constitution. We cannot penalize the 80 million law abiding gun owners for

the actions of a dozen lunatics. It is simply -- it is simply not what we do as Americans. We do not penalize a massive group for the sins of the

few.

Now, is it a tragic that these people were killed? Horribly. Was Sandy Hook tragic? Horribly. But, again, we are talking about a half dozen

incidents. You are going to -- and to that end, last point, Baltimore is a slaughterhouse right now and Maryland has some of the most draconian gun

laws in the United States.

Criminal does not follow gun laws. And, I will leave with this sentence, I do not carry a gun daily because I was cop. I carry a gun daily because I

saw what happened to the victims who did not. And, so, I am very pro- second amendment.

(21:30:00) PINSKY: Lisa?

BLOOM: We have to get over this cowboy, you know, rootin tootin kind of attitude. We know, because every other developed country in the world has

solved this problem. They almost never have mass shootings. We have 20 times as many gun deaths because we are awash in guns.

And, you know what? I am sorry, the 80 million law abiding Americans who have guns, you should be in favor of at least increased restrictions,

background checks, trigger locks, ensuring that mentally-ill people do not get guns.

PINSKY: Listen --

BLOOM: Cannot we all agree on that?

PINSKY: Not just for us but for the mentally ill patients. I got patients that have guns that I cannot -- I have sent the police in to take the guns

and they will not take them. Suicides.

They are not in their -- they are not -- listen, our brains are not always perfect. We do not always think clearly and properly. We can get

impulsive in a moment. I do not want my patients with guns. I cannot get them away. Spirit?

CLANTON: I agree with you 100 percent. But, Dr. Drew, the real issue here is not more gun legislation, because that is not going to happen. The

president has already said it. We know that we cannot get that agreement within our government right now.

But, what we can get is imposition, imposing and enforcing the laws that ate already on the books. That is not happening. So, until we get real

and until we get honest, removing guns from the individuals who have the potential to protect themselves is not the answer here.

PINSKY: Well, that is what John is saying.

CLANTON: There was only one person who held a gun in that church that night.

PINSKY: Karamo.

CLANTON: It was only one.

BROWN: I want to know something.

CLANTON: And, unfortunately, if other people could have protected themselves. That situation could have gone differently.

BROWN: What would this conversation have been if this was like those four little girls who died where someone threw a bomb in? Will we still be

having this conversation about gun laws and gun legislation?

Because I feel right now, again, I know that what Spirit said about how not to be decisive and how to have this conversation about racism, but right

now, I feel like we keep on missing and we get away from what it is. And, if we are going to talk about putting people together --

PINSKY: What is it? What is it?

BROWN: We need to figure out what is that way to help? I do not want to - - all Americans are not racist.

PINSKY: Right.

BROWN: That is true.

PINSKY: OK. Let us start with that.

BROWN: Let start there.

PINSKY: Start with that.

BROWN: You are right. All Americans are not racist, but having a conversation about gun control in this particular moment, if he would have

thrown a bomb in there and they would have blown up --

PINSKY: Do the thought experiment, it is a bomb. Now, what do we do?

BROWN: It is a bomb. What are we talking about now? Now, we have to say we cannot have chemistry experiments? No. We need to start talking about

racism.

WATTS: We are talking about the annihilation and the total disrespect of one of the most sacred places in the world, a church, but in our nation in

particular. That is where the hub of the African-American system has been.

PINSKY: Exactly.

BARNETT: Absolutely.

WATTS: It is where the power base, the support system has been. It is the -- it is the no man`s land. To have that annihilated like a poor little --

SCHACHER: In a very targeted church. In a very targeted church, because of -- because of its history. Exactly.

(CROSSTALK)

BARNETT: And, burnt to the ground and that is the scary part. The scary part for this entire black community; because right now, as we speak, I

know my mother is possibly on her way to church for choir rehearsal.

But, she takes my daughter to church. We go to bible study and so this is -- when we talk about these, so many different issues and we do not want to

touch on other things. This is scary.

PINSKY: Wait --

CLANTON: But, Vannessa, it is not --

BARNETT: This is so real. This is so real.

CLANTON: But, Vanessa, it is not just the black community.

BARNETT: It is not, but look it right now. I am not talking about --

PINSKY: Hang on, Vanessa. Spirit, hold on.

CLANTON: Those are white people out there as well. Those are white people out there as well.

PINSKY: Hang on, Vanessa.

BARNETT: Exactly. All races go to church. All races go to church. But, if we are looking at this issue now, he went in and said, "I want to shoot

black people." And, as a black person, I can have this moment and say that, that is scary for the black community and that does not make me

racist. That is not divisive.

That is me saying that right now in that moment, that is what is very real and I am not negating that white people and Indian people and Asian people,

everybody goes to church. I am talking about this moment.

PINSKY: Yes.

CLANTON: Let me ask you this, because Dr. King`s daughter said today, and I am here in Atlanta, Dr. King`s daughter said that this tragedy reminded

her today of the very incident that happened when her grandmother, mind you, was shot in a church here in Atlanta.

WATTS: That is right.

CLANTON: -- so many years ago, as well as a deacon, by not a white person. So, this is what I want us to understand. This is a painful tragedy, but

the real issue here is that he could have chosen anywhere. He was a coward. He knew exactly what he was doing. There are a lot of copycat

elements here.

There are a lot of mental health issues, but this could have happened anywhere. He chose a church because it was an easy target. We have to

start talking about how do we protect ourselves as individuals and not wait for someone else to come and save us, because it is not going to happen.

It is going to happen after the incident when everyone gets hurt.

SCHACHER: He did not -- he did not just choose any church. He choice that church because it was a symbol of black liberation.

PINSKY: Hang on. John, how do we address, Spirit --

CLANTON: You are assuming.

PINSKY: Spirit threw down a gauntlet there, how do we protect ourselves? Do you have a suggestion?

CARDILLO: Well, I agree with Spirit. You know, if you look at all of these shooters, Sandy Hook, the movie theater, even this one. They chose

the, quote, unquote, "Gun-free zones," very soft targets. This guy had a racist manifesto, no doubt, but he did not go to a corner where bloods and

creeps were hanging out and shoot it out with them.

SPIRIT: Right.

PINSKY: A coward.

CARDILLO: He went to a soft -- he went -- he was a coward. He was certainly a terrorist. But he went, like other terrorists, the softest

target, in a church, sat there for an hour, put them off guard, in a place that is typically gun-free, quote, unquote, and could not shoot back.

(21:35:08) I am a firm believer in armed Americans protecting -- look, when you call 911, you do not hope unarmed cops show up, right? If you are

calling a good guy with a gun to stop the bad guy with a gun. So, I am really in Spirit`s camp on this one.

PINSKY: OK. Hold on, John. Because I will give the last word on Vanessa.

BARNETT: All right. He has a very big point. He not only said he wanted to shoot black people, but he went to that church. He specifically asked

for that pastor who has been an advocate and doing rallies for Walter Scott, who was shot on his back unarmed.

The shooting of Walter Scott in that church is just miles apart. He sat with that pastor. He sought him out and he knew that, that man was also

lobbying for body cameras on police officers in that neighborhood.

So, he did not just willy-nilly say, "Oh, churches do not have guns." So, he sought those people out specifically. And, we keep skirting around that

point. It is just not that broad.

CLANTON: So then, was this an assassination then, Vanessa?

PINSKY: Well, hold on.

CLANTON: Was this a racist act or was this something else?

BARNETT: It is a racist act. This is an assassination on that precedent and it is also a terrorist act. It does not have to be just one.

PINSKY: We are going to keep this going. Be right back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(21:40:18) (BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Can you please send out an EMS command page, advising of an active shooter, multiple people down.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

MULLEN: We have a total of nine victims. There are three males and six female victims.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE PRESS: Do you believe this was a hate crime?

MULLEN: I do believe this was a hate crime.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR RILEY: The only reason someone could walk into a church and shoot people praying is out of hate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: I am back with Vanessa, Sam, Karamo, Spirit, Rolonda, Lisa and Areva. And, here is my problem. In the United States of America, in 2015,

my friend, Vanessa, has to be reduced to tears out of fear because her mother and little girl, her little -- how old is she?

BARNETT: 2.

PINSKY: A 2-year-old are going to church. She is reduced to tears out of fear because her -- the grandmother and little 2-year-old are going to

church. What is wrong with us? What is wrong with us as a country?

I cannot believe I am having this conversation. I cannot believe I live in a country where a bunch of first graders get shot up. I cannot believe I

live in a country where a guy can walk around with orange hair and say I am the Joker. We cannot construe on his right.

You cannot put him in the hospital. We cannot keep him from getting a gun? What is wrong with us, Vanessa? What is wrong? OK, it is racism. It is

whatever. What do we do here? What is coming -- We are coming apart.

BARNETT: We are just talking about that I think we all agree that there are so many issues and some people want to tackle racism. Some people want

tackle mental health. Some people want to tackle gun control. But until we all figure out what is the most important issue, then we all cannot

tackle it at the same time.

PINSKY: What is it?

WATTS: Well, let us call it --

PINSKY: Rolonda, go.

WATTS: We do not know what to do.

BARNETT: Exactly.

WATTS: We do not know what to do. Let me tell you.

BARNETT: That is the problem.

WATTS: We talk -- well, then we should be doing it. I hope you will outline it, because I would love to follow that. But we are also talking

about, we are the first to say, "Oh, it is a mental health issue." But, we are not even ready to deal with mental health issues.

PINSKY: We have no resources with that.

WATTS: How do we deal with that.

PINSKY: Well, we could, but we do not do it.

WATTS: But, we do not do it.

PINSKY: Areva, what is it?

MARTIN: Here is one of the things that we are not doing. We spent a lot of time focused on African-American boys and what is wrong with them and

why they grow up to be gang members. We do not spend nearly enough time on these young white kids who grow up to be serial murderers.

So, we are not talking about intervening. Why is not someone intervening when this young man starts to show signs that he is becoming a radical,

that he is following, you know, these radical groups on the internet, that is identifying with radical groups?

PINSKY: And, by the way --

MARTIN: No one stops to intervene and no one points that out. We got to have a paradigm shift, where it is not just young black boys but it is

these young white boys, who are in need of a lot of intervention and health.

BLOOM: That is absolutely --

PINSKY: Is it extremism, Lisa? It is just extremism wherever it exists, whatever context, just another version of that?

BLOOM: You know, we have been talking about racism since the inception of the show and you said a lot of people on Twitter are saying, "Oh, we are so

divisive," because much of America benefits from racism.

And, if you even use the word racism, which I am intentionally using over and over, because it clearly applies here, that is divisive. People do not

want to deal with racism. I have been a civil rights lawyer for three decades.

When I have a jury and I have a large number of white people on the jury, I know I have a large number of people, I am sorry, who are living in denial,

who are not aware of the experiences of a African-Americans in this country.

The fear of going to church. The fear of walking down the street. Trayvon Martin walked too slowly. Walter Scott got shot in the back not far from

where this church is, not far from where this is incident was.

PINSKY: But, Lisa --

BROWN: Do not walk, do not run, do not talk, do not stop. Do not --

SCHACHER: Do not wear a booty.

WATTS: Do not pray.

PINSKY: Is it possible --

MARTIN: Wait a minute. As other civil rights lawyer on the panel, I am going to disagree with you. It is not all race. We got to talk about

class. We got to talk about income inequality.

PINSKY: All right --

MARTIN: Because there are as many of affluent African-Americans that identify with of affluent whites as there are people who are divided, not

just by race, but by income. Some of the studies show that these radicals become radicalized because of lack of employment, poverty and income

inequality.

PINSKY: And, we never deal with the classes. It is like we are afraid of that. We are afraid of that, but I will tell you what. Let me throw out,

Lisa, maybe as many people benefit from divisiveness as benefit from racism.

BLOOM: Well, I do not think --

PINSKY: There must be people getting secondary game from divisiveness, because it keeps getting worse.

BLOOM: You know what? We have to talk about racism. Even though it is scary --

PINSKY: We are talking about it, all the time. We are not talking about divisiveness though.

BLOOM: Yes, but Dr. Drew, you are going to get accused of divisiveness. You are going to get accused of race baiting, when you talk about racism in

America. I get it every day on Twitter.

I get it in my cases when I stand up for the rights of an African-American, who got fired because he objected to a sheet hanging over his workstation,

which is one of my cases right now.

Racism is alive and well in America. 75 percent of whites in America test for moderate or severe implicit racial bias on a test developed by Harvard

University researchers. And, guess what?

(21:45:00) So, do about 50 percent of African-Americans had internalized racism against their own group. Many African-Americans are aware of this.

We have to deal with this virus, this toxin that is in so many of us.

PINSKY: Karamo?

BROWN: I think what I am hearing is that we need to even the playing field. Hearing that in every single bit. And, I think to even the playing

field, we are going have to go to a very political place.

There is a lot of political propaganda and until we get to the foundation of our country, what our country is built on, this constitution, these laws

that were built to bring us apart and not to bring us together.

PINSKY: What?

BROWN: That has been the history of our country. And, I think if we start encouraging people, and I do not want to go away from racism, but racism is

in politics and we are supporting racist politicians. We are supporting racist legislation. We are supporting so much things that are making this

conversation hard and we have to switch that.

So, if we want to talk about something, if we really need some type of solution, I want to tell people, "Get out there and start voting, start

changing it and start making your voice heard because that is the only way we are going to start seeing change."

PINSKY: Do not be afraid to talk about these things. Do not be afraid of your fellow citizens. We are all citizens of the same country, are we not

here?

BROWN: I do not think we are.

PINSKY: Next up --

WATTS: I am being encouraged that we are talking.

PINSKY: Thank you, Rolonda.

PINSKY: Next up, will this massacre have been in vain or is it possible that we could begin to create a conversation that will make real change?

With this life would have been lost in vain or will his legacy somehow have a positive effect on this country that seems to be rolling down hill. I

will be back after this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEBBIE DILLS, HER TIP LED TO ROOF`S ARREST: I am telling you, divine intervention. I am telling you, God had me where I needed to be. I am not

going to tell you I was not afraid. I was scared now. I was scared, you know?

But I just kept saying, "Lord, you know, if I can just get there and I can do it safely, I was not going to try to put myself or anybody else in

danger. If I can do it safely, get his tag number."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(21:51:02) UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: They were 12 lives. They had gathered to study the word of God at Emanuel AME Church. They opened their

doors. They opened their bibles. They opened their hearts to a young man with evil in his heart.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: And today, Fox and Friends called the Charleston shooting, quote, "A horrifying attack on faith." Listen to Pastor E.W. Jackson on Fox News

channel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

E.W. JACKSON, CHRISTIAN MINISTER: But we do not know why he went into a church, but he did not choose a bar. He did not choose a basketball court.

He chose a church. There does seem to be a rising hostility against Christians across this country because of our biblical views.

And, I just think it is something that we have to be aware of and not create an atmosphere in, which people take out their violent intensions

against Christians. And, I would mention one other thing very quickly and that is, I would urge pastors and men in these churches to prepare to

defend themselves. It is sad, but I think that we have got to arm ourselves.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: I am back with Vanessa, Sam, Karamo, Spirit, Rolondo, Lisa. Sam, you said, no.

SCHACHER: Yes -- No. I do not think in this case, that it was an attack on faith. When he left that message to the surviving victim, he did not

say that I was here to kill Christians. He said I was here to kill black people. And, the reason why I believe he chose that church was one, it was

accessible, he knew that. Her could --

PINSKY: He was a coward.

SCHACHER: Yes, he was a coward. He knew that people would not be packing --

PINSKY: The pastor. The pastor.

SCHACHER: And, the pastor and the fact that this church really is a symbol of a black liberation throughout the years, throughout the civil rights

movement.

PINSKY: Right. Spirit, do you agree with what that pastor was saying?

CLANTON: You know, I think that it is very interesting. I do not agree on the part that it is about Christianity is under attack. But I think that

every group will use whatever in order to defend their position. I think that is just the history and the nature of us as people.

But, you know, it is important, too, Dr. Drew, I know we do not have a lot of time. But, you know, Vanessa was fearful, and as much as I love

Vanessa, I think that she is asking the question that so many people are asking tonight. And, what we have to do is we have to let people know, Dr.

Drew, that the reality is you are not safe anywhere.

And, until we get out of the bubble of waiting for something or somebody else to make us safe, until we see the reality of our situations and look

at ourselves in a different way, we are going to continue to be caught off guard by these situation.

PINSKY: The counselors does not --

CLANTON: Vanessa, this is the reality of where we live.

PINSKY: Hang on, Spirit. Hang on. Hang on Spirit.

CLANTON: It is the truth.

MARTIN: I do not know what Spirit is saying, because she just said a couple minutes ago, that there is nothing that can be done about gun

control and I disagree with that. We have --

CLANTON: I never said that. That is not what I said.

MARTIN: OK. Well, there is some people --

CLANTON: That is not what I said. What I said about gun control was enforcement laws are already in place --

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: -- that believe that there is not a lot that can be done -- OK. There are some people that believe --

CLANTON: Enforcement laws are already in place.

MARTIN: There are some people that believe that there is not a lot that can be done because of the deadlock in congress. But we have a national

election coming up. You talk about getting out and voting. That is so critical.

We need to hold everyone who is running for president accountable. Let us have a conversation about race. Let us have a conversation about African-

American boys, about policing and gun control.

PINSKY: Can we agree -- Listen. Can we agree, whatever we talk, whatever thing we need to talk about we must find a common ground? It may not be

perfect for any group, for any right or any left. Can we please, for God`s sakes, can we find a common ground --

MARTIN: I think the common ground is important but agitation is also equally important.

BLOOM: Yes. People are entitled to their own opinion, like the man on Fox News, but he is not entitled to his own facts. There are no facts to

support that this was a faith-based killing.

BARNETT: Well, it was in a church.

BLOOM: And, if we are going to come together, we have to acknowledge what it is. We have to get out of our denial about racism in America. We have

to agree that the problem is racism plus guns. Then we can work toward the solution.

BARNETT: But, I do not think we can ignore the fact that he did go to a church. So this -- I am sure he has just as much hatred for Christianity

as -- because it is such a big part of the black community as he does black people, as he did this pastor, as he do does --

CLANTON: That is an assumption. Not a fact.

BARNETT: But, he was at the church, which is a fact.

PINSKY: I got to go. Guys, back after this.

(21:55:00) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: I want to thank all of my guests for coming in here and having an open, wide-ranging conversation. We must all keep doing this. Karamo,

thank you for reminding us to get out there and vote and taking advantage of our representative government.

Vanessa, do not be afraid. Most Americans -- we love you. Most Americans are not this. We cannot be this. We must change. This is not us. This

is not who we are.

BARNETT: And, I truly believe that, but these incidents, while isolated, are unpredictable.

PINSKY: I understand. I understand why you are afraid. We got you. We got you. I have faith in this government. I have faith in our system. I

have faith in this country. We have been through worse. We must begin to find common ground.

At our worst, we find a common ground. If we continue to fragment, we do not get together, we do not go all on the boat and begin rowing together, I

do not know what is going to happen.

(22:00:00) Keep talking about this. This is unacceptable. I hate that I have to have these conversations over and again about shootings. Thank you

for watching. I will see you next time.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

END