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Confederate Flag Debate; Manhunt Heats Up; Helping Seniors. Aired 10-11:00p ET

Aired June 22, 2015 - 22:00:00   ET



[22:00:00] ANDERSON COOPER, AC360 SHOW HOST: That does it for us. We'll see you again one hour from now, 11 p.m. Eastern for another of 360. I hope you'll join us. CNN Tonight starts now.

DON LEMON, CNN TONIGHT SHOW HOST: This CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon. This is what America is talking about right now. Does this offend you? It's the Confederate Flag. Is it a symbol of southern pride or a symbol of hate? And then what about this, does this offend you this word?

President Obama said it out loud in an interview. And a lot of people are shocked.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Racism. We are not cured of it. Clearly and it's not just a matter of it not being polite to say nigger in public. That's not the measure of whether racism still exists or not.


LEMON: Tonight the two stories on everyone's radar, a word and a flag. A flag that is flying tonight on the grounds of the South Carolina State House five days after a racist gunman slaughtered nine African- American members of one of the most historic churches in Charleston.

And that is where we are going to start tonight in South Carolina. CNN's Martin Savidge is live for us in Charleston. And Martin historic news out of that state tonight. Let's listen to this.


NIKKI HALEY, SOUTH CAROLINA GOVERNOR: Today we are here in a moment of unity in our state without ill will to say it's time to move the flag from the capital grounds.


HALEY: 150 years after the end of the Civil War the time has come.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: Martin Savidge, what is the reaction there tonight?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think the reaction here in Charleston is muted mainly because the fact that the focus still continues to be on the tragedy that took the nine lives that were lost. And supporting and looking after the nine families that are still struggling with a tremendous amount of grief.

You can hear a music selection. There is a Christian band that's playing tonight. But as I say the real focus here continues to be on those families. They realize what is happening elsewhere in the state is significant. Everyone has talked about it. But here at this particular site they are still very still very much mourning the lost, Don.

LEMON: Let's talk about the alleged killer now Dylann Roof, what are we learning about his manifesto?

SAVIDGE: Well, You know if you believe that's his words and many people do. He talks about that in his moment of epiphany he says was an epiphany of hatred was the George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin trial. That's when he went on line and that's when he apparently the racist web site.

He then we know bought a gun shortly after his 21st birthday. Then he goes on this very weird kind of tour of the state that involves hate and history and he picks some very key sites. For instance, there is one photograph he posted of him on Sullivan Island. Sullivan Island is notorious and slave trade it was the primary port of entry for many of the slaves in North America.

Then you see him at Boone Hall that is a plantation. The plantation that is still open to the public today. Tattoo, of course, is significant in slave history. And then also you see him at one point on a beach. It looks like a nice picture except if you look down by his feet you see the number 1488. That is a huge number and it's a code to white supremacists as known by the Southern Poverty law Center.

So, you know, you begin to see that this is young man who has gone through a very sick and twisted kind of devolution that ends at the side door of the Emanuel AME Church last Wednesday.

LEMON: So, while is attention is there on that state what can you tell us about the president's visit this weekend?

SAVIDGE: Well, it's going to be huge of course. It's not only going to be the president. We're told that it's also the vice president and the First Lady. The expected crowd is going to be so large. They're not anticipated to hold it at Emanuel AME Church instead they will probably hold it at a nearby civic center or an arena.

We understand that the president will be delivering the eulogy for Reverend Pinckney because he knows Reverend Pinckney. This was not just the person he had read about. This was a person he knew in his political organization days of running for office. So, it's going to be quite personal as well as presidential.

And many in this community believe it is just the right thing to help continue the unity and the healing, Don.

LEMON: All right. Speaking of unity and healing. Thank you, Martin Savidge. Speaking of that, joining me now exclusively Kia and Gary Hilton. They're aunt of Myra Thompson, excuse me, lost her life in the shooting at AME Emanuel Church. And she joins us now. And also joining us now is Bakari Sellers, he's a friend of Clementa Pinckney and a former South Carolina state representative.

[22:05:06] Good to have all of you. Let me just start up by saying I'm so sorry for your loss. And Gary, it was a pleasing meeting you on Friday night. What was your reaction when you learned of Nikki Haley decision today?

GARY HILTON, NEPHEW OF SHOOTING VICTIM MYRA THOMPSON: I laughed. But nothing about it is funny. Quite hypocritical. Last week her position was we don't have time for this debate right now. Last week her position was there will be a day for us to discuss this. And over the weekend pictures go viral. And how soon and how fast people change their opinions.

LEMON: Kia what about you?

KIA HILTON, NIECE OF SHOOTING VICTIM MYRA THOMPSON: I echo what my brother said. When I first heard it I was like, wow, wow. I don't know if those are the best words I've ever heard her say ever or is this just because of what happened and the travesty of it all? So, we'll see what happens and we'll go from there.

LEMON: Bakari, we have photos of Tywanza Sander's family celebrating today as they watched Nikki Hayley's announcement. So, do you think the state legislature is going to approve the removal of this flag?

BAKARI SELLERS, FRIEND OF CLEMENTA PINCKNEY: Well, I am cautiously optimistic. I'm hopeful. But I have seen some strange things happy in this body. I do believe that momentum is on our side to make history. Today was a historic day. Those words that she said brought me so much joy.

But again, I do echo to the American public that we still have yet a ways to go. In this flag even it does come down it's just the beginning of a very, very long journey in that we have to take in this discussion about race, this discussion about race and economics, race and education.

So, this is just the beginning. And I guess every journey starts with one single step.

LEMON: Gary and Kia this is for you. What does it mean to you that the shooting might bring about this change?

G. HILTON: Personally I feel that it's unfortunate that something this horrific has to happen in order for people to want a change. I want people to want to change because they want to change. Not because they are forced to change because of some terroristic act. Not because my aunt and the families had to lose loved ones.

I want us to change as people because we want to be different.

LEMON: Do you think that -- what's your response when people say that this flag it just represents southern pride and heritage? Either one of you, Kia or Gary.

G. HILTON: Do you want to take this one? Yes, but that also represents my mom, my aunt growing up in Jim Crowe South. It represents the hatred they had to go through every day. And I'm sure it has historical value to some people. But you to also weigh that with what it means to our history. You know, you can't be blinded by just because it's something that's prideful to you.

K. HILTON: In my opinion on that is there's a lot of thing that have made history and they end up in history books, and they end up in history museums. They don't up on the State Capital. They don't end up in front where I can feel it be reminded of it every day. They don't end up on street signs of confederate generous that my history has to live on.

So, for me, it represent somebody's history but there's a lot of history that represent me and my family and families like us that in history books for museums. So, my opinion is put it where it belongs in history or in a museum.

LEMON: I don't want to let this interview get pass without asking about our aunt. Tell us about your aunt.

K. HILTON: Myra, loving, an educator. Firm, direct. But every time loving. Any time she says something. Any time she tells you something she will go on and on and on you may think it would never ever end. But that's my aunt Myra.

Because she don't have never -- had a five minute conversation it's always bigger than that and this brings everything to light. Because this church behind me is where I grew up all my life. It's what made me AME today.

It's my grandmother's church. Myra's mother. It's our mother's church. We have sent this school with a bible study there. For all of this to happen and for thing to go in motion. My aunt Myra is smiling. She's in heaven, she's in peace. We are frustrated. We are angry. Of course, that's our feeling.

[22:10:04] But my aunt Myra is right now is saying if I one thing this horrific thing can change the dust of a million people she would be so happy that it's coming to change. Yes, we have a long way to go but change is going to happen because of them losing their life.

LEMON: And you know what's interesting to me is that this, you know, this shooter said he wanted to start a race war he's done the exact opposite. And as a matter of fact, the car, I mean, she's speaking of changes right now.

Walmart is removing all Confederate Flag merchandise from its stores. Why are you applauding? Why are you guys applauding?

G. HILTON: Because as we were on our way down to do this interview it pop up on our news feed. And I said, hey, when Walmart gets involve...

K. HILTON: Things are going to happen.

G. HILTON: Things are going to happen. Bakari, what do you think of that?

SELLERS: Sure. I want to clap with them. But I also want them to know and I think that beyond some of those tangible changes like the flag coming down their aunt Myra and those eight other they now give us especially young people like myself, white, white, and otherwise who grew up in South Carolina, something else to love forth.

They help me strive for helping this state become a more perfect union. And at the end of the day my father when he was growing up he used to keep up picture of in itself in his wallet. And so, now, we can -- I can add these nine names and faces to my journey and hopefully their aunt Myra one day can job well done.

And I think that is going to be a legacy that she has as well of changing hearts, minds, flags and helping young people like myself live for her.

LEMON: It's very -- perhaps it's better that end this interview now because it's so emotional. You guys have handled this so gracefully. And the people of South Carolina so gracefully. I just -- I applaud you. And I thank you so much for coming on tonight. God bless both of you.

G. HILTON: Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you, Bakari.

G. HILTON: Thank you for your word, Bakari and...

SELLERS: Thank you so much. Thank you.

G. HILTON: ... Don, like I told you the other night it's an honor meeting.

LEMON: Thank you. You as well.

K. HILTON: Thank you.

LEMON: We'll have you back. You guys take care. We've got a lot more on this to come. When we come right back, a heated debate in the wake of racist or racist massacre in Charleston. Is there any excuse for flying the Confederate battle Flag. I'm going to talk to a man who says the flag should stay.

Plus, the president says nigger and everybody goes crazy: Was he just speaking the truth?


LEMON: Welcome back everyone. The governor of South Carolina wants that flag, the Confederate Flag removed from the grounds of the State House. That's a live picture there looking that.

There's the Governor Nikki Haley today and a large group of supporters called calling for the state legislature to take action. But there are signs tonight that the flag won't go down easy.

And tonight, there's also talking in Mississippi about removing a Confederate Emblem from that states flag. Republican House Speaker Philip Gunn says it's offensive and needs to go.

So, joining me now is South Carolina state senator Marlon Kimpson, Sunny Hostin, CNN's legal analyst and a former federal prosecutor. Pat Hines, chairman of the South Carolina League of the South.

Thank you all for joining us tonight. Pat, to you first, South Carolina's top leadership calling for the Confederate Flag to come down. But you believe the flag should stay put. Why is that?

PAT HINES, SOUTH CAROLINA LEAGUE OF THE SOUTH CHAIRMAN: Well, we think it's a memorial to our ancestors who fought to stop invasion of South Carolina by the United States. When I was waiting in the green room I've looked that there was a painting of Old Sheldon Church on the wall there.

And the painting showed the church that was burned by the British when we fought a war of succession from the British. And it was burned again by the United States government as we fought a war defending our land.

And my thoughts today where Nikki Haley is honoring those people that burned that church.

LEMON: OK. I don't really understand that. But the picture of the church is not hanging in the State Capital. It seems that like apples and oranges to me. But I let state senator Kimpson get in on this just as we go on Haley and other said that it was too soon to have this discussion.

So, what changed and how do you respond to what Pat Hines said?

MARLON KIMPSON, SOUTH CAROLINA STATE SENATOR: Well, with response to the gentleman who just spoke that's why we have museums to commemorate history. We have books. We have various places in the state. We actually have a lot of places in the state where the history can be recorded.

Listen, what the governor did today was very important. Because what we have to do is to have to enter a sunny day resolution to add this added to the agenda. It's important that the people of South Carolina know that the work is not over.

And in that regard there will be a rally tomorrow at 11 o'clock at the State House for all those who want to see the flag come down. We must reach two thirds in both houses to have this agenda issues added to our senate schedule. Because technically we are out of session and we're only there to discuss limited business including the budget, capital reserve fund and the surplus fund.

LEMON: OK. So, Pat, before I get to Sunny, Pat, if you really want to honor history why not put in the museum, that's what most people do when they want to honor history they put things in museums.

HINES: Well, the flag is where it is. It is a memorial site, the entire site around flag pole, lift the flag is a memorial to or, for instance, my ancestors. I had five South Carolina ancestors and one from North Carolina...


LEMON: Can't you say the American flag?

HINES: Well, yes. But actually could the way you -- I don't understand why the American flag flies over the State Capital of South Carolina. I've never understood that.

[22:20:02] LEMON: Why not?

HINES: It flies over the post office. It flies over the United States military bases. But you don't see a state flag flying over those locations. Why should we fly the United States flag?

LEMON: Because it's one over -- it's one America, one country.

HINES: No. Actually, no.

LEMON: Go ahead, Sunny. Go ahead, Sunny. Let Sunny get into that and I let the rest.

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I'm pleased that the tide is turning when it comes to this. I mean, I think certainly symbols matter. Words matter. And this has been a symbol that is very painful. I think it is very divisive.

And I think people that are voting and trying and lobbying to take it down are on -- finally are on the right side of history. And, sir, I think you are on the wrong side of history. And clearly continue to be.

LEMON: State senator?

KIMPSON: Well the person who just spoke and I don't remember his name and I mean no disrespect.

LEMON: Pat Hines.

KIMPSON: Therein illustrates the problem. This gentleman is talking about the American flag that does not need to be flying over the State House. Well, this is a divisive symbol. It's time to put it in a museum. It's time for South Carolina to move into the 21st century. We have a number of businesses who've expressed interests in the removing the Confederate Flag from in front of the State House. And it's important that we move forward without delay in recognition of what happened in my senate district, district 42 last week.

We must move with urgency, a sense of urgency. As the chamber of commerce issue the statement later this afternoon to remove the flag from the State House grounds. But most importantly, Don, it's going -- the time for us to have a serious dialogue. I agree with the family who was here earlier about economic empowerment is not just enough to remove the symbols. But this is a pathway to open up the dialogue so that people who have historically not participated in the economic progress of this state, including the city of Charleston.

I'm standing near multibillion dollar projects.

LEMON: Right.

KIMPSON: But we must make sure that people of all color particularly low to moderate income and working class people are included in that economic prosperity.

LEMON: I want to ask Mr. Hines that you know, Walmart is a very big company and they were very powerful. And they say that they won't sell Confederate Flags any type of merchandise in their store. Many people think it is a watershed moment. What do you think of it?

HINES: The sun doesn't rise and set on what Walmart decides to say. Some places they don't sell guns and ammunition or in some places they do. I don't really have anything else to say about Walmart. It is a southern company at one time but I doubt it is now.

What I don't understand is why the state senator is moving to do cultural genocide on the southern men and women. I don't get that. Maybe he's not from the south. I don't really know him. But I would tell you I'm glorified.


HOSTIN: Sir, that is so absurd Mr. Hines.

HINES: My organization...

HOSTIN: But the suggestion somehow that taking down the flag is cultural genocide when that flag represents terror and intimidation of African-Americans in that state is just unbelievable that you would have the audacity to say that.

LEMON: Yes. A quick response from you state senator.

KIMPSON: Don, well, let me.

HINES: Well.

LEMON: Go ahead senator.


HINES: I don't know about kind of girl.

KIMPSON: Well, my daddy always told me not to wallow in the hole, in the swamp with holes. And so, I won't dignify that remark. I'm here to represent this district including African-Americans and white people and all colors and creeds and genders. Because we are moving forward without delay undeterred to move South Carolina into the 21st century.

LEMON: All right.

KIMPSON: I will not waste my time to dignify ignorant comments.

LEMON: State Senator Kimpson, Pat Hines, thank you very much. And Sunny Hostin, you stay right there. President Obama use nigger while talking about race in America setting off a firestorm. But was he right to say it out loud? We'll get into that next.


LEMON: The president uses the word -- I won't say it this time in respect to my colleague, Sunny Hostin, who is sitting here and she hates it. But he uses -- he's using it. He used it during an interview and now everybody is arguing about it.

You are going the hear that word several times tonight because in order to have an honest conversation about words and what they mean we have to say what we mean just as the president did.

So, joining me now Trinidad James, musical artist, Sunny Hostin, and Michael Higginbotham, a law professor at the University of Baltimore and the author of "Ghosts of Jim Crowe Ending Racism in Post Racial America." I'm so happy to have all of you here this evening.

So, thank you for joining me. Professor Higginbotham, to you first. What do you make about -- let's talk about South Carolina before we get to the president. What do you make of them trying to remove that flag?

F. MICHEAL HIGGINBOTHAM, UNIVERSITY OF BALTIMORE LAW PROFESSOR: Well, I certainly think it is the right move. I think it's a good day for South Carolina and a good day for America. I listened very carefully to Governor Haley's announcement. Certainly she has changed her position from recent years.

But it's a good change and a change in the right direction. I think it reflects recognition on her part that the flag is divisive and sends a message of hatred. The history is clear on it. You know, it was created by an army that embraced slavery.

It was supported by a movement that embraced Jim Crowe segregation. And most recently it was flouted by an individual who went into a church and killed nine people.

LEMON: Nine people.

HIGGINBOTHAM: So, I think it's the right move and it sends the right message.

[22:30:02] LEMON: Thank you professor. Now Trinidad? The president spoke very candidly.


LEMON: And I want you to listen to what he said on this broadcast and then we'll talk.

JAMES: All right.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Racism, we are not cured of it. Clearly. And it's not just a matter of it not being polite to say nigger in public. That's not the measure of whether racism still exists or not.


LEMON: You see Sunny flinches whenever she hears it. I don't really like that word at all.

JAMES: Correct.

LEMON: But context is everything. What did you think?

JAMES: I mean, I listened to it a few times myself. I listened to the full thing. I feel like a lot of times we take one segment out of a conversation and we just hone in a whole episode on that. But he was talking to that guy on that podcast for a whole hour. And they talked about a lot of different topics.

And they got comfortable. They got -- he was talking to a white man. And I feel the president is a very intelligent person. He wouldn't be saying it in the aspect of I really knew what he was saying he was saying that. And he knew that people would feel a certain type of way and feel a type of way as your colleague...


LEMON: You use the word in your songs. And it was also, you know, the racist rap, they took your song...

JAMES: Correct.

LEMON: ... and would write and so, that's -- you are here to talk about it because you feel that in music when it's artistry, you should be able to use it as well, right?

JAMES: Well, I feel more for an aspect of everything is context and everything is how you are saying it.

LEMON: Right.

JAMES: It's more of -- I feel that there are so many other words that is used and so many other bigger subjects that we could focus on. I feel like we get so caught up in that word when there is a bigger thing to handle.

LEMON: For me...

JAMES: To raise that.

LEMON: ... for me, it's different in music that what the president said. That's just my personal thinking. But Sunny, you agree or you disagree, you don't want -- you think the president should have said that.

JAMES: He didn't have to say it, do you feel?

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. I don't think he should have said it. I think it is beneath the dignity of his office. I think he is...

LEMON: True. Beneath the dignity?

HOSTIN: ... such a bright. I think he is such bright man. I think that he is a word smith there over a million words in our language. I don't think he needed to use that word. I think that when you...


LEMON: Sunny, hang on. Before you finish your point, if the president had said, people just don't use the "n" word, do you think we would be here talking about this?

HOSTIN: Well, that's the problem. What are we talking about? We're not talking about the nuances. We're not talking about the larger issues. We are all talking about the use of the word. And that is why that word is so loaded. It is so provocative that people can't see past it.

JAMES: Why do you think he used it?

HOSTIN: I think it was -- well, the White House says that it wasn't intentional, that he was comfortable, and that he just sort of used it.

LEMON: I think, yes.

HOSTIN: But I do think that it was intentional because I think he's that smart. But I think he missed the mark. Because what are we talking about? We're not talking about structural racism. We're not talking constitutional racism.

LEMON: Yes, we are. We are.

HOSTIN: We are talking about the word. And what is shocking to me, Don Lemon...


LEMON: Every guest almost... HOSTIN: ... is that you are willing to say that the flag should come down which is a symbol of hatred and racism but you have used the "n" word in my presence and with all our viewers at least concise.


LEMON: But the president -- and hang on, but I'm not using it in a hatred way in a way that is part of hatred.

HOSTIN: Well, you used it all.

LEMON: I'm using it as part of the record. The president, Sunny, said "nigger."

HOSTIN: There you go again.

LEMON: I'm a journalist. Right. Because I'm a journalist and I need to say the president said. I'm not going to sugar coat it I'm not going to sensor it anyone it's censorship -- for you to say that the president shouldn't say something is basically saying that you know better than the president and the president should be censored.

HOSTIN: I'm certainly...

LEMON: Professor, what do you think? Do you think of -- do you think that it desensitized the word if the president uses it in that way? Or do you think he should not have said it?

HIGGINBOTHAM: Well, one, I think certainly the president got our attention by using the word. We're all talking about it. I do think it's about context though. And I said about Paula Deen several years ago when she was caught uttering it. It's all about context. It's how you use it.

If you use it -- look, I'm professor, I use it in the classroom sometimes as an instructive way to deal with our history and to teach about it. I think if you use it in instruction that's appropriate. If you use it in a derogatory way as a personal insult or denigrate an entire group of people then I think that's inappropriate.

Of course we all have first amendment rights, so we can all say the word if we want. But if you ask me when it's appropriate to say I think it depends on context and I think the president had the right context today.

I also think it's critical to look at what he said. He didn't say that racism had ended. He said that blatant racism had been reduced but subtle racism continues. And I think that is such a powerful point especially coming from the President of the United States.

HOSTIN: But what is troubling to me Michael -- and Michael is a friend of mine from my days in Baltimore, it's good to see you Michael. What is troubling...

HIGGINBOTHAM: Good to see you, Sunny. HOSTIN: ... what is troubling me though, is now I feel that the fact that the President of the United States used it. It gives license to so many people to use it. I don't think -- I think it's intellectually dishonest to say it's not OK for white people to use it; it's OK for black people to use it.

[22:35:00] It's OK to use it in the classroom but it's not OK for someone, you know, for someone to use in a greeting way or someone use it in negative way. The bottom line is it is a word that is so loaded, so hateful, so violent. It is a racial epithet. For me it is akin to the flag. If we are going to take the flag down, then retire the word.

LEMON: And the reason -- I think the reason that it is shocking to use because in this particular way that we use it in journalism that we have sanitized it so much that is seems shocking to me...


HOSTIN: CNN has not used it so much in journalism.


HOSTIN: We've had reporters...

LEMON: But people that...

HOSTIN: ... that have had to apologize by using the word.

LEMON: ... but we should. Because we say -- no, that's not true. That's not true, Sunny.

HOSTIN: You -- you've been able to use it Mr. Don Lemon over and over again because the President of the United States...

LEMON: No. I've been...

HOSTIN: have said it. We've been playing it on CNN because of the president.

LEMON: I've said that word, Sunny, you're wrong. I've said that word for --


JAMES: But the bigger part...

LEMON: ... hang on, hang on. I did a whole special on the "n" word where we said it the entire time. I've been saying that word for nine -- I've been at CNN for almost nine years. I've said that word for nine years. on CNN.

HOSTIN: And you've been wrong for nine years.

LEMON: Well, but...

HOSTIN: And you've been wrong for nine years. LEMON: And I don't think that I've been wrong for nine years. I think that journalists should not be censored. I think we are the record and the record shows what the president says. So, if the president can utter that word, we should be able to utter too. I do have to go.

HOSTIN: Everyone has license to use now.

LEMON: And the president -- as the professor said, he's a professor, he knows how to teach and this is a teaching moment for the country.

Coming up, two escaped killers have been on the run for more than two weeks. But police say they may have their best lead yet. Is it the end of the manhunt?


LEMON: The manhunt for two escaped killers in New York State heating up tonight. DNA from Richard Matt and David Sweat found inside the burglar's cabin according to a law enforcement source.

Meanwhile a witness on Saturday spotted someone running into the woods near a cabin only 25 to 30 miles from the prison.

Now I want to bring Glenn MacNeil, he's district attorney in Franklin County, New York. Good evening to you, sir. What can tell us about the items found inside the cabin?

GLENN MACNEIL, FRANKLIN COUNTY NEW YORK DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Well, I know that there's items found this cabin that were sent to the New York State Police lab for analysis.

LEMON: So, did the analysis find anything, do you have any result?

MACNEIL: I don't know the exact results right now. I haven't seen an official report.

LEMON: OK. But they do believe that the DNA belongs to these guys? Do authorities know when the inmates were there?

MACNEIL: They were spotted in the cabin on Saturday. How long they could have been there is anybody's guess at this point time I guess.

LEMON: OK. So, Gene Palmer is corrections officer at Clinton. He is questioned for 14 hours about his possible involvement. What can you tell us about that? Do you know anything about it?

MACNEIL: I don't know anything about that specifically. You know, that was handled in Clinton County where Dennamora Prison is. So, as the DA of Franklin County, I was not involved in that.

LEMON: So, Mr. MacNeil, let me ask you about this cabin. How is it equipped? Is there electricity? Is there food? Is there water? TV in the cabin. Because some cabins don't have electricity. Sometimes people shut power and water off for the winter when they are not there. Do you how it is equipped? MACNEIL: Yes. You know, I don't know specifically know how it's

equipped. I know it's a hunting camp. You know, out in the area they can be kind of rough camps. You know used specially in the fall during the deer hunting season. So, you know, that far back in the woods if there was electricity it might be generator electricity not from power lines.

LEMON: And do you know anything about weapons or anything in that camp as you describe it, or cabin?

MACNEIL: You know, I don't know anything about weapons. There was talk about the possibility of an old shotgun being in there. But that hasn't been confirmed.

LEMON: Can you tell us anything about the manhunt? Is there anything new tonight?

MACNEIL: Nothing new tonight. You know, obviously, there is a large police presence. I got a, you know, state police and other police agencies from all over the state that converged on the area here. And you know, they are going 24/7 obviously.

LEMON: Is there a sense that they are getting close here? Are we getting near the end of this manhunt in your estimation?

MACNEIL: Well, you know, I think this is a promising lead. Obviously, we're all hoping that this is going to lead us where we all want to be, which is the capture of these two people. Obviously they're very dangerous and we need to get them.

LEMON: Well, you mentioned violence and the possibility of a weapon being inside of the camp, you said an old shotgun. And if they're cornered, that is the worst possible scenario for law enforcement and the people in that area.

MACNEIL: Well, that's correct. You know, hopefully the weapon was not there and they don't have it. But, you know, the state police and the other agencies are, you know, they're very well trained professionals.

LEMON: Behind you I see that -- is that a checkpoint behind you? And how are -- what's going on with the checkpoints in that area? Because at some point, close to the prison they had stopped the checks. And what about where you are?

MACNEIL: Yes. They have several checkpoints coming into the area here. Cars are stopped. You're asked to pop your trunk or our hatchback so they can check the car and everything. So, you hit several of them coming into the area here.

LEMON: Glenn MacNeil, Franklin County D.A., thank you very much. I appreciate you joining us on CNN this evening.

MACNEIL: Thank you.

LEMON: Yes. And coming up, what is it going to take to actually bring the fugitives in? What is it going to take? And can they be taken alive? Dog, the bounty hunter, there he is, weighs in next. Don't go anywhere.


LEMON: More than a thousand officers searching tonight for those escaped killers. Is the end near for this manhunt? Joining me now is Duane 'Dog' Chapman from CMT's "Dog and Beth: On the Hunt." Good evening to you, sir. What do you think of this latest development?


LEMON: That DNA has been found in a cabin close to the prison?

CHAPMAN: Well, we, you know, we all have been waiting for a mistake to be made. So, there is number one. You know what I mean? To leave clothing back or fingerprints or anything that you touched and to go on somewhere and leave that's mistake number one.

Now where they're at, geographically located. 20 miles from where they're at, brother, is Dickerson, New York, where Joyce's family all lives. OK. These cabins the only thing that my source think they could have gotten out of the cabin that would have helped them is maps.

This is probably the most intense forest. This as thick it's not what we've been imagining. This is really thick. And listen, the cops -- you know, we thought they're all swarming at night and hunting with night vision. These guys are so dangerous that the cops are not hunting them at night.


CHAPMAN: You know, I would assume because -- yes, I mean this is -- you know, the more and more -- you know, this is not Dog and Beth on the Hunt or Dog the bounty hunter. These guys are pure stone cold killers.


[22:50:02] LEMON: But I got to ask you this though.

CHAPMAN: So, they are not even letting the cops go out.

LEMON: I know they go out during the day. And they go out in groups. So, they -- because they are concerned about their safety. But I have to ask you, they don't know when that DNA was left? They don't know how long ago those guys were there? They could have been there a while back.

CHAPMAN: Well, I think that the sighting, you know, the one guy went up and saw the big duffel bag on the front or back door. When he yelled, two individuals ran out of the cabin. So, that was Saturday. So, like I say, 20 miles -- they've got one river to cross.

Listen, I've got people that know these guys now because we've been working on it. My people think they're going to kill one of Joyce's family members because they are so mad at her for not showing up. And my person says they have got a cell phone. They might not be Joyce's, but you can go in and out of areas. They're communicating. They're -- these a lot more dangerous men that I, you know, we all first figured. These are really, really dangerous guys.

So, I think they are honing in on them right now. Again, they can't chase them at night because what if a cop gets jumped or something at night? Then they do have a weapon. They're chasing them just in the day. They're using bloodhounds. Now they've got an area cordoned off. I think the end is coming very soon.


CHAPMAN: You know, I just, again, to stress how much that they're dangerous. And again, I told you last week, brother, they've got to make a couple mistakes. Who would -- they should have buried, you know, they had underwear that they found. They should have buried it.

They had a jug of water. They should have took it with them. So, there come mistakes. And you make any mistakes around these troopers, you're done.

LEMON: What if they are still on foot and they are relatively close to this, what does this mean for the search? Because everyone thought they got much further away. What does that mean for the search? Does it help? Does it hurt?

CHAPMAN: Well, because of everyone, you know, everyone that's been chasing -- because of the most elaborate breakout we've all ever seen in our lifetimes, we thought these guys are brilliant. You know, in prison you -- there is two ways to breakout.

You can get out of prison easy. It's after the point you get out, you got to have a plan. Obviously, the only plan they had was Joyce. They had a great exit. They had a great breakout. But once they got out, we all had figured, you know, oh, they could have even some guys have heard said, oh, they had a plane pick them up.

Guess what? These guys have been like in a Barbie house. You know, they're not used to the element, when to use the bathroom, when to eat, when to shower. Here's what clothes to wear. Another thing, brother, they've worked in a tailor shop where I believe, inmates clothing has nowhere made.

But I also believe guards' clothing are made there. So, what if they got a couple officer shirts from that tailor shop? They worked right there. So, they have, you know, different kinds of clothes, different things. Again, very, very dangerous. They've got to take it very slow.

They got to track them really slow, only during the day. And I think it's just a matter of time. I wish -- you know, I'd love to go up there and commentate, not incarcerate, but I'd love to be right by the action.


CHAPMAN: I'm trying to see if CMT will let me do that right now.

LEMON: Yes. Well, get on it Dog because I think they need all the help they can get.

CHAPMAN: Thank you, brother.

LEMON: Dog, the bounty hunter. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

CHAPMAN: Thank you,

LEMON: We'll be right back every one.


LEMON: More than 11 million seniors live alone in this country. In this week's CNN hero knows that just being a friend to a senior could make a world of difference.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because when they're awake trying to check the local weather.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sometimes our seniors are forgotten.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think he's got a job where he earns as well.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Could be completely alone and every single day to not have anybody to talk to, it's hard for me to imagine how lonely that would be.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I live alone and I have ever since 1975. The only conversation I get to have is with my kitty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our society has become very mobile, and families are now far away. And even though they care about them, they're not able to do the things that these folks need.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are so many things that are easy for us and impossible for them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you ready to get groceries?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are working to make sure that people have the help that they need.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'll go give you the wash rag.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whether that's small.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This one right here?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or something that's huge, like managing their money. And we serve as legal guardians for people who are not able to make decisions for themselves. But you still need some more work done.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I regard them as family. They're just there for me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We get to make a huge difference in people's lives.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You call us if you need us, OK? And we do it by being their friends.



LEMON: To nominate a hero, go to Interesting show. Great conversations tonight. That is it for us. I'm going to see you right back here tomorrow night. So, make sure you tune in.

[23:00:01] In the meantime, Mr. Anderson Cooper is up with AC 360. It starts right now.