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AT THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA

Prison Worker's Husband Breaks Silence; Protesters Rallying in SC Against Confederate Flag; Interview with Sen. Lindsey Graham. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired June 23, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[11:00:00]

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: "AT THIS HOUR" with Berman and Bolduan starts now.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: They plotted to kill me. The husband of the prison worker in the great escape breaks his silence. What Lyle Mitchell says about sex, drugs, and his wife's getaway plan.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: A watershed moment for race in America, right now protesters are rallying in South Carolina against the confederate flag. But even though that's gaining momentum, is there enough support to take it down?

BERMAN: And a radio talk show host, once so nostalgic for the confederacy, he was known as the southern avenger. He joins us live to tell us why he has changed his mind on the flag.

Hello everyone. I'm John Berman.

BOLDUAN: And I'm Kate Bolduan. Thanks for joining us. AT THIS HOUR, as law enforcement is trying to zero in on escaped killers in, on the escaped killers in New York, the husband of the woman charged with helping the killers escape is breaking his silence.

Lyle Mitchell reveals what his wife, Joyce, told him about the inmates' plan to drug and kill him. Plus, the moment she admitted that she gave fugitives Richard Matt and David Sweat the tools they used to make their escape.

BERMAN: Well Mitchell says he does not believe that sex played a role. Pretty surprising revelations came just hours ago on the "Today" show.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LYLE MITCHELL, JOYCE MITCHELLE'S HUSBAND: I said how can it, how can it happen? She said that this -- I got in over my head and I was scared. She said "I have something else to tell you." I say "What's that?" She said "Their plan was -- they want to kill you." I said "What?" They wanted her to come pick them up.

MATT LAUER, THE TODAY SHOW: So she admitted to you at that moment that once these two escaped from Clinton and made their way to that manhole, that she was supposed to be the one to pick them up and drive them away.

MITCHELL: She told me that Matt wanted her to pick them up. And she said "Well I'd never leave nowhere without Lyle, never." And he said "I'll give you some pills to give him to knock him out and then wheel, then you come pick us up." She said "I am not doing that." She says "I love my husband, I am not hurting him." She said, "Then I knew I was over my head." She said "I can't do this."

And then she told me he started to threaten her with somebody inside the facility was going to do something to me to harm me or kill me or somebody outside the jail if she didn't stay with this.

LAUER: According to your wife, they were going to kill you for what reason?

MITCHELL: Just to get me out of the way. But she said she would never have gone through with it. That's what she told me. That she really loved me and she wasn't in too deep.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: In too deep. CNN's Sara Ganim is in Owls Head, New York -- that is where DNA of these escaped killers was just found. Sara, what is the latest on the hunt this morning?

SARA GANIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning John. State police is telling me everything here is status quo. They're dealing with stormy weather, a lot of on and off pouring rain. Something they've been dealing with several days of this 18-day search, but that's not stopping them from literally trucking in not just searchers but also equipment.

We've seen truckloads of ATVs and four-wheelers. They are clearly continuing to search this wooded area around where that DNA was found in that cabin over the weekend. Now that's what's going on on the search side.

On the investigation side, we've learned that authorities are looking into the possibility that some of those tools were actually smuggled into the prison through frozen hamburger meat. Now these two inmates, remember, they lived on a block called the Honor Block, where they were allowed to have some extra special privileges, such as a hot plate, where they could cook their own food.

And authorities believe that it's possible that Joyce Mitchell had hidden some of those tools in frozen meat, given it to a guard, who maybe did not put it through metal detector before handing it off to one of those inmates. Now of course there's been this speculation about what Joyce Mitchell's relationship was with these two inmates.

Her husband, when he talked to Matt Lauer on NBC this morning, was asked that question. Was it a sexual relationship? He denies that. If you listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MITCHELL: If they give her a little attention, she said that this, it went too far. He say he tried to kiss her a couple of times, she did not. And she said that they threatened her a little bit on things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GANIM: Now, John and Kate, just one quick thing I want to add, we're out here in a pretty rural area. Cell phone service is pretty spotty, but investigators did say yesterday, they're concerned that maybe these two have access to some way of monitoring police communication. They've been able to stay one step ahead, and the district attorney did tell me last week that inmates inside the facility told them, they saw those two with cell phones before they escaped. John and Kate?

[11:05:00]

BOLDUAN: Sara Ganim with the latest for us in upstate New York. Thank you so much. Let's talk more about the manhunt, where things stand.

Now let's bring in Lenny DePaul, former chief inspector and commander for the US Marshall Service in New York as well as New Jersey. Lenny, thank you very much. So we're talking, as we heard from Sara, they're looking at -- they're dealing with stormy weather, that's one thing they're dealing with up there. They've got rough terrains and bringing in ATVs. But the focus still remains on the evidence, if you will, they found in this cabin, where they believe they -- these men, these guys were sighted.

One of the things we're hearing, Lenny, is that they found a pair of prison-issued underwear in that cabin. That seems pretty strange thing, a pretty strange thing to leave behind regardless, especially if you're trying to cover your tracks. What do you make of this? Does that mean that they're getting sloppy?

LENNY DEPAUL, FORMER COMMANDER US MARSHALL SERVICE NEW YORK & NEW JERSEY: You know what; I think they're getting desperate, putting this into perspective with this cabin owner, or this hunter that sees somebody running out the back, possibly two people. You know, they were disrupted, if it is them. The DNA is that it's not a homerun, it's a grand slam for law enforcement. You know, the timeline is important. How long have they been in that cabin? How old is the DNA? But you got somebody running out the back door.

So from what I hear, from the guys that are down range up there, thick bushes, very tough to get around. The terrain is extremely rough up there, drop offs so, you know, I'm sure they're miserable, they're tired, if in fact they're monitoring law enforcement as you're saying. Anything's possible. They could've got their hands on a scanner, I know cell phones -- there is no coverage up there because I tried to make some calls myself. And it's almost impossible.

But you know, that's a possibility. But there -- I'm hoping the noose is tightening. They got a perimeter set up. And it's a full-court press for law enforcement as we speak.

BERMAN: So there is severe weather in the area. Really severe. Some pretty fierce thunderstorms. Who does that help more? Does that help investigators? I mean, I know bloodhounds can lose the scent if the rain's too hard. But if it is really bad weather, these guys can't be outside running either, can they?

DEPAUL: I don't know John. I mean there, you know, again there's cabins, there's quite a few cabins that have yet to be opened up for this summer. Summer hasn't hit behind that shed apparently. So they could've broke into another home. Like you said earlier, they're slipping up. They're starting to commit crimes. It's been real quiet. There's been no nothing, no robberies, break ins, carjackings. Now they're starting to get desperate. You know, desperate people do desperate things.

So it is to our advantage. It's the law enforcement's advantage at this point. We're not stopping. As you can see these dedicated warriors, they're around the clock. The traveled down to Friendship, 350 miles away. You know, they will certainly continue this manhunt until this these two were in custody. Those two guys got some problems.

BOLDUAN: Yes, so Lenny, they've slipped through a perimeter before. At least it appears that the last perimeter that they had talked about setting up, that was closer to the prison. How do they avoid -- what does law enforcement change? How do they avoid that from happening again?

DEPAUL: Well if that's a fact together, you know, they may have not inside that perimeter. You know, it's sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. But, you know, if they slipped through, the perimeter breaks down, they had a shift a couple hundred miles east and west. And, you know, they certainly have enough manpower, state of the art equipment, aviation support, canine, bloodhounds, ATVs -- they've got everything they need to hunt these two violent predators bound in. And they will, I think the noose is tightening, like I said.

BERMAN: All right. Let's hope you're right.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Sure hope so.

BERMAN: Lenny DePaul, thanks so much for being with us. We'll check back in with you, if we get more developments.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Thanks Lenny.

BERMAN: Coming up for us, Walmart pulls the confederate flag. Many in South Carolina want to as well, but is there enough support in the legislature? Protesters gathering outside the capitol right now to make a push. BOLDUAN: Plus, presidential candidate republican senator of South Carolina, Lindsey Graham, he's going to be joining us. We're going to talk about the controversy over that flag. We're going to ask him about his shift in position. And also what he thinks about other confederate symbols across the South. Should they also come down?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:10:00]

BERMAN: Happening now, a rally on the grounds of the state house in Columbia, South Carolina. You're looking at live pictures right now. This, of course, was the scene of the dramatic announcement from republican Governor Nikki Haley that she now wants the confederate battle flag to come down.

BOLDUAN: Now that big announcement just came in the aftermath of the massacre in Charleston, of course, carried out by that man, an avowed white supremacist. To take down the flag, which is the big debate, it would require a two-thirds majority of the state's legislature and that could be a major obstacle.

Meanwhile, a lot of other big businesses are taking note. Walmart, Sears, Kmart -- they've all announced that they're going to remove all confederate flag merchandise from their stores. So let's get the very latest on where the conversation stands, the debate stands on the ground there. Ana Cabrera is joining us live from the rally. Hi there, Ana.

ANA CABRERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi Kate and John. This rally just getting underway. And as you take a look around me, there are hundreds of people who have come here to the state capitol grounds and we're seeing people from really all walks of life, like very diverse group of people here. You see young, you see the elderly, you see people who are certainly African-American, others who represent other races, including Caucasian people. And they are gathered and united around a common cause, and that is to remove this flag. You see it's still standing right in front of the state capitol alongside the confederate war memorial.

And I do want to come over and talk to one of the residents from Charleston who drove all the way here, a couple hours, in fact, in order to make her voice heard. This is Kat Morgan. You can see, she's brought her sign with her. Tell me what it means to be here for you today.

KAT MORGAN, RALLY ATTENDEE: Well my great-great grandfather was a confederate soldier. And when I hear people talk about the confederate flag as a symbol of my heritage as if it's a neutral thing, it's deeply offensive to me because the confederation of states that fought to preserve the right to enslave kidnapped Africans and they do it in my name. They do it in my name and that's just not acceptable.

CABRERA: What d you think about the announcement from the governor? MORGAN: Well, I was pleased to hear that there's movement. But the legislature hasn't acted yet, and they need to act. And I don't necessarily trust that that will be the outcome today or in the next days. I'm hopeful it will be, but the roots of racism in this state, in this country, are deep, and I've talked to a lot of white South Carolinians who think that the flag should fly because it's a symbol of they say heritage. I say an ugly past.

[11:15:00]

CABRERA: You believe that it's still possible this flag will not come down when it's in the hands of the state lawmakers. Why?

MORGAN: I hope it will come down, but two-thirds of them have to support bringing it down. And they haven't taken a vote yet, and so I'm not certain. Until I see it come down, I will be here to make sure that people know that it's not acceptable to fly it.

CABRERA: Kat Morgan, thank you so much for talking with us. We really do appreciate it. I do want to mention, we've seen both sides out here today. The majority gathered are calling for the flag to come down, but if we just turn a little bit more, you can see a couple of gentleman here with their vests that say "brothers forever." These two guys have been very vocal in support of the other side, demanding that the flag stay. So this is really setting up the debate that's going to be happening inside this building behind me as lawmakers return here in the next couple hours this afternoon. Kate and John?

BOLDUAN: Yes Ana, I think, yes that -- we'll see how well the debate outside mirrors the debate that's going to be going on inside the capitol and where those lawmakers stand because they have a huge question before them in the eyes of the country, looking at them right now. Thanks so much Ana Cabrera in Charleston for us.

So coming up next, we're going to have Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina. He's going to weigh on this debate exactly. And also, whether he thinks other confederate symbols that are present across the south, if they should go down -- come down as well. Plus, we're going to -- just in to CNN, Virginia is making a big announcement about the use of the confederate flag in that state. We'll have that for you.

BERMAN: And he says he is 100 percent the escaped prisoners would have killed him if his wife had gone through the getaway plan ahead. The husband of the prison worker Joyce Mitchell speaks out. We'll show you what he said.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:20:00]

BOLDUAN: AT THIS HOUR, momentum seems to be building for the confederate flag to be taken down from South Carolina's capitol grounds. And some top political leaders, they are adding their voices to this debate. BERMAN: Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina is one of them. He says the flag should be taken down and put in a museum. Senator Graham joins us now live. Senator, first of all, let me just say we are thinking about you here. We know you and your friends in the entire community down there continue to mourn terrible loss in Charleston. So thanks for being with us.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R-SC) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: My pleasure. The families of the victims are the most amazing people I've ever met in my life. How they could confront the killer of their loved ones and say,"I love him, I'm praying for you." It's just amazes me.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: They are saying that you are a good senator. As recently as Friday, your position -- you were here talking to CNN on the flag. You did not come out and say "Take this flag down." You still said it should be discussed by the people of South Carolina. I think your entire life, you had the position of that it was OK to fly the flag. And now, this week yesterday, for the first time, you said "Enough. Take it down." How did you get to this point?

GRAHAM: Well, the people of Charleston. The people of Mother Emanuel church. The way they conducted themselves made it impossible to keep the flag up. The killer embraced the flag in a fashion that there's no way to explain this. What happened in 2000 is that we moved the flag off the dome of the capitol, by the confederate war memorial and build when African-American monuments on state house grounds.

That compromised the help for 15 years. And the truth does matter if it had not been for this horrific killing, the flag would still be flying. This is a circumstance of where the people led the politicians. I came to conclude after going to Charleston, that we had to act and sooner rather than later. And God help South Carolina if we fail to achieve the goal of removing the flag.

BOLDUAN: Senator then, with that in mind, speak to what we kind of -- there's a bit of presidential politics that a lot of folks are looking to that lens at this as well. Speak to those who are criticizing, saying that politicians are following the people. But the politicians didn't have enough courage to stand up, to save this. That the confederate flag represents racism, and should come down until now. That you were hedging until this point.

GRAHAM: Well, number one, I'm from South Carolina. And the worst thing I can do, is on a Friday say, let's take it down, without talking to anybody else. I live there. I'm never going to pull my state under the bus. We've got our share of problems. But I love my state. It's not about me, it's not about me running president. It's about the people who live in my state. And we're going to take a vote soon, I hope, to remove the flag in reaction to what happened in Charleston. And make no bones about it, no mistake. If it hadn't been for this horrific killing, that flag would still be flying. But after this, none of us, none of us can look the people in AME church, and say, you know, "Let's keep the flag up." At least, I can't. So at the end of the day, in terms of the presidential field, I want

to thank my fellow candidates for the republican nomination of giving us the space. Some people may not like it, but it was appreciated in South Carolina, to give us a chance to come together. The governor, myself, Nikki Haley, James Clyburn, we came together. And I hope we can get it across the finish line.

BERMAN: Senator did you just say God help South Carolina if we fail to achieve the goal of removing the flag?

GRAHAM: Yes, absolutely.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: And the Charleston paper is keeping a vote count right now on both sides of the legislature. Right now, they don't have the committed votes. There are a lot of people who are calling back and saying they haven't decided yet but they don't have the votes to remove the flag. So why is that? And two, what are you going to do to change those numbers?

GRAHAM: Well, what I was trying to say Friday is that it was time to revisit. I'm a politician. I can't vote. I'm not in the state house so I haven't had the chance to count votes. But I wanted to make sure we could get the right answer. It was clear to me that the flag could not fly after this horrific killing, in honor of those who conducted them so well.

I mean, they're brave enough to look the killer in the eye. Certainly should be brave enough to say "Let's remove the flag and honor them." But at the end of the day, you know, I hope we got the votes. To anybody thinking about voting now, here's what it means. It means that we'll get boycotted. It means that our state will suffer economically. It means that the children -- black, white, and everything in between -- in South Carolina are going to be haunted by this.

There is no way to explain this after nine people were murdered by racist young man, who embraced the flag. So for God's sakes, understand this is not about your political teacher, my political teacher. This is about the future of the state.

[11:25:00]

BOLDUAN: You know what, Senator; I think I heard you say though that you're worried that this might not come down. What then? What does that say?

GRAHAM: Well, there are people who understand, that it -- is the flag enough? Do we have to remove all confederate memorials?

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: What do you think?

GRAHAM: Do we have to cleanse history? Well, at the end of the day, I think removing the flag is the right thing to do. We can't rewrite history. You know, this country, fortunately or unfortunately, was founded by slave owners. We've come a long way. In my life...

BOLDUAN: What about those other confederate symbols across the south?

GRAHAM: Well, if I were in Mississippi, I would vote to change the flag. But I'm not in Mississippi. But if I were in Mississippi, I'd vote to come up with another flag in light of this shooting. That's what I would do but I'll leave it to the people of Mississippi. But if I were there, that's what I'd be urging.

I've got my hands full taking down our confederate flag and moving it to a museum. I can't fix every problem in the world, in the state, in the nation. But we can start with the flag. It needs to come down. It needs to go to a museum. And South Carolina needs to get this right. And I will do whatever I can, along with my colleagues, to get the number of votes necessary.

BOLDUAN: And then you said you thank the presidential candidates for kind of giving you guys the space in the state to deal with this.

(CROSSTALK)

GRAHAM: Yes. I do.

BOLDUAN: But I do want to get your take. Governor Mike Huckabee, he said this. He thinks the votes are being baited on this question of the confederate flag. He thought that this -- in his words he said that this debate has nothing. The confederate flag has nothing to do with running for president. Do you agree with that?

GRAHAM: Well, at the end of the day, I think what was appreciated by South Carolinians is that they gave us a chance to work on this problem. If we'd ignored it, I would imagine everybody would have to answer this question. This is a question that needs to be talked about. We need to discuss. You know, Washington DC is named after George Washington, who is a slave owner. When you add up all the contributions he made to us as a nation, the fact that he owns slaves, should we change the name of Washington DC? No I don't think so.

At the end of the day, we got to embrace the fact that we've come a long way. When I -- I never went to school with an African-American child, so I was in late middle school. My parents owned a restaurant, a liquor store, a bar, and we -- our bar was segregated. African- Americans bought beer but they couldn't sit -- they took it to go. Until in the early '70s, I have lived this. We've come a long way. And we got a long way to go. But it is what it is.

I mean, I've been -- I'm a child of South Carolina, in that regard. I've seen things change in my whole life much for the better. And as long as I'm going to be the senator of South Carolina, I'm not going to throw my people under the bus to get ahead politically. We're doing the right thing. Just give us a chance to get there.

BERMAN: Senator Lindsey Graham, thanks so much for being with us. Again, we are thinking about you and the people of your state. He said he's come a long way, the state's come a long way over the years.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: This is an important, this is an important issue to have your voice on Senator.

BERMAN: Come a long way in a week.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

GRAHAM: Thank you.

BERMAN: I mean I think the senator just said. I mean, I don't think the state was anywhere near this just a few days ago. So...

GRAHAM: The people brought us here. The people of Charleston brought us here. Thank you.

BERMAN: Thank you, Senator.

BOLDUAN: Thank you, Senator.

BERMAN: All right. 27 minutes after the hour for us right now. So he used to wear a face mask with the confederate flag on it. But now the man once known as the Southern Avenger says he was wrong. So much changed.

BOLDUAN: And a murder plot that involved pills and a getaway car. Up next, the target of that supposed plot, the husband of the prison worker accused of helping two escaped prisoners speaks out.

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