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Obamacare Upheld; Inmate's Charm; Returning to Prison. Aired 2- 2:30p ET

Aired June 25, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[14:00:00] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: For our international viewers, "Amanpour" is next. For our viewers in North America, "Newsroom" with Brooke Baldwin starts right now.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf Blitzer, thank you so much.

Great to be with you. This is CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

A big day today in Washington because the United States Supreme Court saved Obamacare and, in turn, gave President Obama arguably the biggest win of his presidency.

Let me just bottom line this for you. What it does, what happened today, it upholds federal tax credits for some 6.4 million Americans who live in states without their own health exchanges, only the federal exchange. So without those credits, health insurance would have gotten a heck of a lot more expensive for those folks, not to mention the fact that there would have been yet another political showdown to try and change the law. Not to say that that won't happen. We'll get to that in a second.

Just a couple hours ago in the Rose Garden, the president made it crystal clear that the Affordable Care Act is here to stay.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is not an abstract thing anymore. This is not a set of political talking points. This is reality. We can see how it is working. This law is working exactly as it's supposed to. In many ways, this law is working better than we expected it to. For all the misinformation campaigns, all the doomsday predictions, all the talk of death panels and job destruction, for all the repeal attempts, this law is now helping tens of millions of Americans.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Not to say the fight is over, far from it, but, you know, as we mentioned, this is a huge, huge win. So much reaction to get to. Let me begin with our justice correspondent Pamela Brown there on the steps of the U.S. Supreme Court.

Let's just begin with the fact that this is a 6-3 ruling. Break it down for me. PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: A 6-3 ruling and led by Chief

Justice Roberts. Once again, he's stepping in, taking the lead and essentially saving Obamacare. With this ruling today, millions of Americans who are receiving subsidies to help them pay for their health insurance can continue to keep those subsidies. The Obama administration has said these subsidies are the linchpin to the law and without them there would be chaos, there would be death spirals, people would lose their health insurance and it would create a big mess. Challengers to this law, though, said there are four words that make it clear that only people in states with state-run exchanges can have subsidies. Those four words, "established by the state."

Here's what Chief Justice Roberts said in response to the challengers. He said, "petitioners' arguments about the plain meaning of the act are strong. But while the meaning of the phrase an exchange established by the state under the act may seem plain when viewed in isolation, such a reading turns out to be untenable in light of the statute as a whole." So making it clear perhaps that - those four words are ambiguous. But when you look at it as a whole, it's clear what Congress intended.

I have to say, though, Brooke, Justice Scalia came out today from the bench with a scathing decent. He was sitting right next to Chief Justice Roberts and he said, look, those four words make it clear, he said, "so [the court] rewrites the law to make tax credits available everywhere. We should start calling this law SCOTUScare." At that point, Brooke, I'm told there is a chuckle in the room, a moment of levity. But I have to say, it was very dramatic in there today, especially when Chief Justice Roberts comes out and said that he was going to read the opinion. Of course, remember a few years ago when he stunned conservatives by upholding the constitutionality of the Affordable Care Act.

BALDWIN: That's right. You mention the chuckle with SCOTUScare. Also talks of applesauce and death spirals. We're going to get all into the politics and the personalities, of course, with all these different justices. Always fascinating when a massive decision like this comes down.

Pamela Brown, thank you so much for your reporting.

Let me move on because today's decision really could have a major impact, of course, on this upcoming 2016 presidential election. Next November is potentially the next big chance voter will have to give their say on the health care law. And I have former senator and former governor from the state of Rhode Island, Lincoln Chafee, who, by the way, is also a Democratic presidential candidate. He's on the phone with me.

Governor Chafee, thanks for calling in.

LINCOLN CHAFEE (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (via telephone): Good afternoon. Glad to join you.

BALDWIN: Could you just help - put this all - this day in perspective for all of us? When we're looking back, as far as President Obama's legacy is concerned, I mean it's a huge win. Would you think it would be fair to say this is one of the biggest days of his presidency?

CHAFEE: I'd say the last couple of days with the fair trade bill passing and now having the Supreme Court rule in his favor on the Affordable Care Act, it's a great could of days for the president. And I support both of those, the fair trade and the Affordable Care Act. As governor, we had one of the best rollouts. I think Kentucky and Rhode Island had the highest percentage of our citizens sign up. So it's good news. Great news for Americans to have insurance in the future.

BALDWIN: Since it's a great victory for your party, you know, is this something that you and your fellow Democratic contenders for president will use to run on?

[14:05:08] CHAFEE: Absolutely. This is something good for the Democrats to run -

BALDWIN: How?

CHAFEE: Because the Republicans are trying to repeal the Affordable Care Act and so it's a great talking point as we go out to our various states as candidates with Congress, for the Senate, for president, for governor, as Democrats saying, we don't want to have - go into the emergency room to a primary care, as it used to be. It's a good bill. It's going to make it better every day. And it's going to be good for our American citizens. We're going to have a healthy America as a result.

BALDWIN: Governor Chafee, you know, you really come from a unique perspective because you were a member of the Republican Party some years ago and now because, you know, you know both parties so well, in your opinion, in these last couple of years, what do you think has really changed within the conservative movement in this country?

CHAFEE: Well, as you know, the Republican Party drifted southward as the - as the - fewer and fewer Democrats were elected in the south and more and more Republicans in the south. So priorities changed. It became more social issues and cared less about fiscal issues that used to be bedrock of Republican, take care of the books. That was number one. And the Republican Party brought back the deficits and started to focus on social issues. And this is a perfect example, repealing the Affordable Care Act. Americans want to have health insurance and we're going to make this work even better.

BALDWIN: They would say take a look at Congress, I'm sure, and take a look at the majorities they have. We'll be talking to some Republicans coming up a little later, their perspective and, of course, this - how this pertains to presidential politics come 2016 as well. But for now, Governor Lincoln Chafee, thank you so much for calling in. I appreciate it.

And -

CHAFEE: Thank you.

BALDWIN: You got it. And from a legal perspective, let me bring in CNN contributor Stephen Vladeck, who is a law professor at American University Washington College of Law, and an expert on constitutional law and federal jurisdiction.

So, Stephen, welcome. I'm sure this is a fun and exciting day for you and anyone watching all of the - the inner legal machinations here. So as I mentioned with Pamela Brown, you know, it's significant because this is - this is time number two now that this, you know, Bush appointee, this conservative chief justice, John Roberts, has saved Obamacare. What's your reaction to that?

STEVE VLADECK, LAW PROFESSOR, AMERICAN UNIVERSITY WASHINGTON COLLEGE OF LAW: Well, I think that's right. And I think Pam had it exactly right, that this is a bit of a surprise. I think we knew all along, once the court decided to take this case, that it was going to come down to Chief Justice Roberts and Justice Kennedy. Now we know they're both siding with the Obama administration. So Pam's absolutely right, this is a really big sign that the chief justice is above, at least in some respect, politics. That every once in a while a case comes along where they say, yes, this is loaded with all kinds of political baggage, but my job as a judge is just to interpret the law and that's what I'm doing here.

BALDWIN: You mentioned Justice Kennedy. I want to get to him in a second because we have to talk about what happened a couple of years ago. But just for those of you watching along, you know, we've got sort of your justice baseball cards, if you will, in the middle of the screen. Those who voted for the majority and those who voted in decent. What's interesting to me here is when you look back, you know, three years ago when the Supreme Court held up the constitutionality of the Affordable Care Act, conservative Justice Kennedy then found the law unconstitutional. Today, you know, he agreed with the majority opinion. What happened, do you think?

VLADECK: Well, I think, Brooke, it's a very different kind of case. I mean when this case was before the Supreme Court three years ago, it was a question about the scope of the federal government's power, vis- a-vis the states. And Justice Kennedy, throughout his whole career, has been very concerned about federalism and about the relationship between the federal government and the states. The question the Supreme Court answered this morning was not really about federalism, it was really just, what did those four words in the statue mean.

BALDWIN: The sheer interpretation of those four words?

VLADECK: That's exactly right. And so I think from Justice Kennedy's perspective, this was not nearly the kind of fraught federalism laced states' rights driven case that led him to dissent three years ago.

BALDWIN: Justice Scalia. You know Pam mentioned the chuckle in the court - the courtroom when he mentioned, OK, so now we should all be calling Obamacare SCOTUScare. I know the term death spiral was used at least four times. And one more - one more quote that jumped out at me was about - where's the applesauce quote? "Otherwise the court says there would be no qualified individuals on federal exchanges contradicting, for example, the provision requiring every exchange to take the interests of qualified individuals into account when selecting health plans. Pure applesauce." How do you read that?

VLADECK: Yes, I think - I think it's pretty clear how Justice Scalia feels about this ruling.

BALDWIN: I think so.

VLADECK: You know, Justice Scalia, for his whole career, has been what he would self-describe as a strict textualist. And so from his perspective, if the language of these four words is clear to the average person, and he says it is, then nothing else matters. And I think what we see in this opinion today is exactly the fight between textualists like Justice Scalia and even other conservatives, like Chief Justice Roberts, like Justice Kennedy, who say it's about more than text. You cannot read text divorced from context. And if you actually look at the Affordable Care Act as a whole, it's pretty clear that Congress did not mean for this particular text to be read literally the way that Justice Scalia wants to read it.

[14:10:15] BALDWIN: Do you think, after a major decision like this and such, you know, dissention, do these justices get together and have lunch? Just curious.

VLADECK: Well, you know, they are very cordial with each other. They know that they're going to have to see each other for, you know, five, 10, maybe 15 more years.

BALDWIN: Yes.

VLADECK: But I is worth noting that, you know, at the end of his dissent, Justice Scalia did not put in the usually respectfully dissent. He just said, "I dissent." And I suspect that whenever we get the gay marriage rule, and whether it's tomorrow or Monday, we might see similar fireworks on both sides of the issue.

BALDWIN: That will be huge.

Stephen Vladeck, thank you very much. Maybe we'll chat again when that comes.

VLADECK: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Appreciate it.

Coming up here, bizarre developments continues in this daring prison escape in upstate New York. A manhunt underway. You have this second prison worker now, this time a guard, has been charged in this plot. Here what he is accused of doing as he gets ready to appear in court any moment.

Plus, an interview you will not want to miss. We will speak live with a former female prison worker who not only helped an inmate escape, but she spent days on the run with him. She joins me live, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [14:15:30] BALDWIN: This is CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Another day, another revelation in the story that has more than 1,000 officers hot on the trail here of these two convicted killers. Listen, we've been counting with you, 20 days here. Twenty since David Sweat and the birthday boy, Richard Matt, tunneled their way out of prison in upstate New York. Matt, by the way, turns 49 today while on the run from police who say these men are likely armed and becoming increasingly desperate.

Let me show you a picture and you'll see a man right here. This is the latest puzzle piece in this mysterious prison break. He is Gene Palmer. He was a guard at the prison for nearly 30 years. He is facing court later this afternoon, charged with giving the two convicts a screwdriver and needle-nose pliers and supervising as they rewired electrical breakers in the catwalk behind their cells. OK? And remember those hacksaw blades hidden in the hamburger meat, well, he's the one who apparently delivered them both to Matt and Sweat. His lawyer saying his client was swindled into it by the prison seamstress, Joyce Mitchell.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDREW BROCKWAY, GENE PALMER'S ATTORNEY: He had no knowledge before that there were any kind of tools inside. The only mistake he made was trusting Joyce Mitchell. He could have run it through a metal detector. That was his mistake, Anderson, he didn't run it through the metal detector. He feels extremely guilty about that. He's regretful. He apologizes for that. But Miss Mitchell was just as manipulative as these two inmates were.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So you just heard the lawyer saying, Joyce Mitchell was just as manipulative as these two inmates. Of course, it's been widely reported that Mitchell was in a sexual relationship with one, maybe both of these men. And my next guest knows better than anyone what it's like to get swept up in a prison romance. Nine years ago, Toby Dorr was working as a prison dog trainer when she fell in love with a man to her left here in this photo. This was John Manard, an inmate serving time for murder. Eventually she smuggled her lover out in a dog cage, in a dog cage. For 12 days they were on the lam, hiding out in a cabin before their run ended in a high-speed car chase here. She served two years behind bars and she joins me now.

So, Toby, welcome.

TOBY DORR, FORMER PRISON EMPLOYEE, HELPED AN INMATE ESCAPE: Thank you.

BALDWIN: I know you want to talk to me today, you want to help other women, potentially. So, again, your story, like Joyce Mitchell, the seamstress, you were married, you're a cancer survivors, wife, mom of two. The question on everyone's minds right now is, how did you fall for a murder?

DORR: Well, I think it has a lot to do with a particular place that I was at in my life. I had been a perfectionist, a hard worker. I tried to live up to the role that everybody else set for me. I had a pretty high bar I set for myself, too. And at some point all that pressure and all that responsibility, you have a breaking point. And, unfortunately, I had a breaking point at a time when someone was able to capitalize on that.

I think women have a choice. They can - if they need to make a change in their life, they can make a change from a position of strength and courage. They can evaluate their options and do something to make their life better, whether it's to work on the problems they have or go in a different direction. But when you don't - when you ignore your problems, you become in a state of desperation where the silliest, stupidest ideas seem like a great idea.

BALDWIN: I mean, you know, hindsight is 20/20. Stupid, you know, even thinking about it now, but at the time, I mean, how were you swept up? Did he seduce you? Were you a willing seducee?

DORR: Well, I, you know, it was just refreshing to have somebody pay attention to you and talk about how you were feeling and notice how you looked. And for me that was a breath of fresh air. It was like pouring water on a dying plant. And I soaked it up. Now, had I been a stronger person at that point in my life, it would have just washed right off. It wouldn't have had any effect, but I wasn't at that -

BALDWIN: Did you know about his criminal past?

DORR: I did, yes.

BALDWIN: We've been hearing from this former inmate who told CNN that in this current situation, this seamstress, that she and one of these, you know, murderers would escape off into closets and spend time in there doing, you know, who knows what. I mean did you have opportunities to be with this man at this jail?

[14:20:10] DORR: No, not really. I mean we spent a lot of time talking. He was one of my dog handlers and he was a person who escorted me around inside the prison

while I was there so that I would be safe from any other inmate that, you know, had ill intentions. So we spent quite a lot of time talking, but we didn't have opportunities to -

BALDWIN: So while you were talking - OK, I hear you on the lack of opportunities, but obviously you created an opportunity by helping him escape.

DORR: Yes. Yes.

BALDWIN: How did he - was this his idea and how did you pull this off?

DORR: Well, it was his idea and I - by the time he mentioned it to me, it was pretty well worked out. He pretty well had it worked out. I didn't think it was going to happen. It just thought it was kind of like a fantasy game. Like a what if, wouldn't this be cool? And I found myself taking one step and then another step and then another step until it was that day and I was driving through the gate. And even at the time I still didn't think he'd be in the van. I was surprised that the whole thing worked out.

BALDWIN: And what did it feel like -

DORR: Today I -

BALDWIN: Well, let me ask you, before you get ahead.

DORR: OK.

BALDWIN: When you were, you know, in this cabin, was there a sense of excitement that you were on the run or did you realize the second you did it that it was a bad move?

DORR: Well, there was a moment of panic that I had once we were outside the prison and I realized he was in the van because all these thoughts run through my mind what's going to happen and, wow, I'm going to really in trouble now. And so there was a moment of shock. But during the time that we were on the run, I tried not to think about it. So I - which was common for me back then. I tried to put anything negative out of my mind and just pretend like everything was fine. So that was kind of par for the course.

BALDWIN: And then it wasn't fine.

DORR: No.

BALDWIN: And you all got caught.

DORR: Right. Right. And I went to prison. And I can remember being right where Joyce is now. You know, being in jail for the first time and I'd never even had a speeding ticket or, you know, been pulled over even.

BALDWIN: Wow.

DORR: And so I was just stunned at the place I found myself. And I can remember telling my attorney when he asked for a continuance for two weeks, I can remember saying, I can't stay in jail for two weeks. That can't happen. I can't do this. Well, you know, two and a half years later, I walked out. So I learned you can do things that you don't think you can do.

But the funny thing is that, for me, I used that time in prison to really learn who I was and to learn who I wanted to be and what I needed to do with my life to become a better person, to become the person I knew I could be. And so - and that hasn't stopped either. For the last six years since I've been out of prison, I continually look for opportunities to grow, to help other people, to be stronger in my faith, in my emotions, in my mental state. So it's an ongoing process. But I'm a much stronger person today for having gone to prison.

BALDWIN: Final question, with this renewed sense of strength and this knowledge of sense of self, if you had Joyce Mitchell sitting right next to you, knowing what we think we know about her and what - how she was perhaps involved, what would you say to her? DORR: I would say to her, don't listen to what the world is saying

about you right now because nobody's saying anything very nice. But, instead, look at yourself and vision the person you want to be and spend all of your time and energy focusing on yourself because until you fix yourself and you become the strong person that you're capable of being, you aren't of any use to anyone else and your family or your friends. You need to be a strong, healthy person so that you can put that strength and character out to the rest of the world. And it's in her. I believe she can do it. And I would tell her, don't give up. Don't lose sight of that. Don't let this action become who you are for the rest of your life. Rise above it and be something better.

BALDWIN: Toby Dorr, what a story you have to tell. I admire your strength. And may we all have such a strong sense of sell awareness. Toby, thank you so much.

DORR: Thank you very much. Bye.

BALDWIN: Next, my next guest spent six years in a high-security prison. Why she says that escaping from prison was the worst mistake these two killers could have ever made. Hear what will happen to them, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:28:54] BALDWIN: More now on this intense manhunt for those two convicted murders, Richard Matt and David Sweat who will be inevitably caught. That's what we've been saying, it's not a matter of if but when. So says one former inmate of a maximum security prison. And when that happens, life will become tougher for them and for everyone else behind bars. Chandra Bozelko joins me now from New Haven, Connecticut. She spent six years at the York Correctional Institution.

Chandra, welcome.

CHANDRA BOZELKO, FORMER INMATE, YORK CORRECTIONAL FACILITY: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Let me read a little bit of what you wrote in court. Quote, "escaping from prison is like committing suicide. The wrath of those left behind awaits your return." So tell me about - first, before we talk about this current situation, the two escapees of the facility where you were, what happened, what privileges were revoked. Tell me everything.

BOZELKO: Well, there were two separate, unrelated escapes while I was at York CI. The first one happened right at the end of what would have been a school Christmas break. It happened on a Saturday night and that Sunday would have been the last day that a lot of students from out of state could have seen their mothers in the visiting room. And when we went into a lockdown status because of the escape, all those visits were canceled. So, as you can imagine, a lot of those mothers who were expecting those visits from children who had come, you know, at the end of their Christmas vacation to see their mother before they returned to school the next day --

[14:30:13] BALDWIN: No dice.

BOZELKO: -- were very upset that they couldn't see their children.