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Life Tougher in Prison When Convicts Recaptured; Guard to Face Court in N.Y. Escape Plot; Olympic Park Bomber Evaded Capture 5 Years. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired June 25, 2015 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[14:30:12] CHANDRA BOZELKO, FORMER MAXIMUM SECURITY PRISON INMATE: The second escape was less problematic. It happened in early April. And it was resolved very quickly. Not that much more quickly, but quickly so that -- not that many things got shot down. The lockdown did not last very long. But the first lockdown, the timing of it was bad for the inmates.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: What about this current situation, the two current escapees. They were on the Honor Block. They were able to cook in their own cells. Life didn't seem too terrible for two convicted killers. What will it be like when they return?

BOZELKO: As I said in the "Forbes" article, I'm also certain that Matt and Sweat will die in seg. Not to be too much of a pessimist on this but --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Die in what?

BOZELKO: In seg, in segregation. It's from "Orange is the New Black," we call it shoe or the hole. Segregated housing. They'll be kept out of the general population.

BALDWIN: How will the inmates feel towards them now that the privileges would be revoked? Would that even matter since these guys would be in seg?

BOZELKO: I don't think anyone in the general population would have much access to them. Clinton is off lockdown status now but I don't know what the -- the conditions have changed, things are not allowed anymore, if there's restricted movement throughout the facility. Without knowing that, I can't really say. All I know is they were locked down for a while. Usually it requires no inmate leaves their cell to eat, shower, to do anything. So it can be a very uncomfortable time for those in the lockdown. I'm sure they are angry at them. Whether they will have access to them to say anything or do anything to them, probably not. But it will be --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: This will be a high-fiving atta boy being on the lam, that type of situation, this would be -- many middle fingers and other things I can't say on TV if they were to see these inmates when they return. Yes?

BOZELKO: Yes. When the escapees return, they went right into segregated status. No one had any access to them. I'm sure if they had been out in general population, there would have been incidents and accidents and other situations.

BALDWIN: OK. My final question is, talking about the seamstress, Joyce Mitchell, and in your piece you do show compassion for her, assuming that this is a big assumption, that she was innocent in this whole crime. Knowing what we know and speaking with -- had a fascinating conversation with a woman who is sort of lulled into this relationship with the killer behind bars and helped them escape, you know, how -- I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around how that even happens.

BOZELKO: You mean, how an inmate convinces a staff to do something that extreme?

BALDWIN: Yes.

BOZELKO: It would have to be in a work situation inside a prison where someone would have enough time and enough face time with a staff member to convince them to do something this extreme. I had work assignments, like every other inmate, while I was at York C.I. and extended periods of time with my supervisors in close contact doing work, but I never had that kind of extended period of time with a regular guard or any of the custody staff, as they're called. So if anything like that is going to happen, it's probably going to happen in work assignment situation. I know your last guest said her person she helped escape was very protective of her. He was just in a regular cell block. That would be very unusual to me. In my experience, most people would have to have extended period of time, maybe a few minutes alone, away from prying eyes to convince somebody to do something like that.

BALDWIN: Takes guts, I suppose.

Chandra Bozelko, thank you.

BOZELKO: Thank you very much.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, we'll take you live outside the courtroom where Gene Palmer, the guard, was arrested for tampering with evidence. He's expected to appear in court this afternoon and we will talk about whether he has a case.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:38:51] BALDWIN: We are back now with a new shift here in the saga of the prison break in Upstate New York. That worker will appear in court. That worker, veteran prison guard, Gene Palmer, is charged with of giving screwdriver and pliers to the inmates to fix electrical breakers in the catwalk area behind their cells so they could cook food on their own time. Prosecutors claim that Palmer was given paintings from the inmates, paintings that he tried to burn and get rid of. Joining me now is Jean Casarez, live in Plattsburgh, New York, outside

the courthouse. I have Boris Sanchez in the thick of the search area; and defense attorney, Randy Zelin, in New York.

Jean, to you first, have we heard anything from the guard's lawyer about why he was allowing them to rewire the electricity behind the cell walls?

[14:40:00] JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He's not talking at all. But we spoke to a neighbor of Gene Palmer. She said there is always electrical issues around the area and it's very common to have things like that happen. Today in court, there's going to be a court hearing and we'll see if Gene Palmer comes but he is being charged with very serious things. There are three felonies here and one misdemeanor. He was charged last night, arraigned last night, pleaded not guilty. He had a bond set of $25,000. He bonded out. We understand he used a credit card. But that complaint, Brooke, of what you're saying is very rich in details because it really says that on four different occasions, not just once, but he brought in a screw drier and pliers from the outside and brought it to an inmate between November 2014 and the day of escape. It also goes on to say that after the escape happened, that he took paintings from Matt and Sweat and burned them on his property and then also subsequently buried different paintings at a separate location close to his home. They executed a search warrant and found the tools at his home -- Brooke?

BALDWIN: You're watching for him to appear in court.

Boris, I hear authorities are warning folks in the area, really truly, these men may be armed. What kind of intelligence do they have to lead them to believe that?

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, authorities are, working under the assumption that these men are armed because of the seasonal hunting cabins in this area. There are so many cabins that they are not sure how many weapons might be around. They don't have an inventory. It's impossible to tell whether or not they are armed. And they say that it's possible that there were weapons inside that cabin that was broken into over the weekend -- Brooke?

BALDWIN: OK. Boris, thank you.

Randy, you heard Jean, three felonies. We're talking about helping allegedly with the screwdriver and the paintings. Could his -- what will his defense attorney say? He didn't know what he was doing, he was just bringing this stuff in, he didn't ask any questions?

RANDY ZELIN, ATTORNEY: Here's the good news and bad news. The good news is the lawyer will walk in and say, as you just said, my client had absolutely no idea there was anything inside of the meat, zero. And there's no evidence to support that. Bad news is, the prosecutor will start talking about what you did after. And so oftentimes, it's not what someone does that really screws them up, no pun intended, it's what they do afterwards.

(CROSSTALK) BALDWIN: Such as?

ZELIN: Burning the evidence. Burning the proof.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: That detail.

ZELIN: Oops.

BALDWIN: Yeah.

ZELIN: It's like the old Bugs Bunny thing. Do I put him in the oven?

(LAUGHTER)

BALDWIN: Oh, Randy.

ZELIN: So the point is -- but here's the other thing that kind of blows my mind with this whole thing. The prosecutor will have a tool saying, I didn't know what was inside of the briefcase, what was in the bag. What conscience avoidance is, the prosecutor's way of proving knowledge which is, you close your eyes to the high probability that what is in that meat ain't just meat. Why wouldn't you put it through the metal detector?

BALDWIN: So how did he -- this guard, who took a polygraph test, asked all of these tough questions, he passed it.

ZELIN: They are not admissible. They are not real reliable. And this is one of the occasions where I will argue in favor of the prosecution and say they are not real reliable.

BALDWIN: OK. Randy Zelin, thank you very much.

Boris Sanchez, Jean Casarez, thank you.

As we enter day 20 of the manhunt for these two escaped killers, we're looking into another case for the killer who was on the run, Olympic bomber, Eric Rudolph, how he managed to evade agents for five years. Remember this? Hiding out in the woods in North Carolina. Stay here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:49:15] BALDWIN: I just wanted to show you these pictures in Boston. This is obviously a huge, huge fire 50 miles southwest of Boston. There are massive plumes of black smoke. I've counted multiple fire engines responding to this in Webster. This is the Anglo Fabrics Mill. This is according to Auburn fire rescue. Again, according to our affiliate, WHDH. There are no reports of any injuries at this point in time but as you look at these stunning pictures, we'll bring it to you as soon as possible, whether anyone was at work, just after lunchtime in Webster, Massachusetts. Stay with CNN for that.

A young veteran says sports may help veterans heal and now he's helping find the best therapy out of the field of play. Our chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, has the story in today's "Human Factor."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's Brian Taylor Urruela's job to motivate others as a personal trainer. But not long ago, the 29-year-old needed motivation himself. In 2006, he was in the Army stationed in Iraq when his Humvee hit two roadside bombs. He survived the blast but his right leg was severely injured.

BRIAN TAYLOR URRUELA, PERSONAL TRAINER & U.S. ARMY VETERAN: My leg was completely useless. I would never bike or swim or run again. I had 10 to 12 years to try to suggest it. They suggested amputation as an option.

[14:50:10] GUPTA: After surgery, Urruela had a tough time adjusting to civilian life.

URRUELA: I was planning on a 20-year career and that was over. That's when the PTSD hit me hard. Just tried to drink the pain away. I didn't want to die but I didn't want to live anymore.

GUPTA: He got counseling. He hit the gym and started volunteering. He started vets sports.

URRUELA: It took the focus away from myself.

GUPTA: Urruela and two other veterans were inspired to start the non profit, Vet Sports.

URRUELA: We help veterans transition back into team life through team sports and community involvement.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a sports system. The guy on my right and left has my back like on the combat field.

GUPTA: It's a comradery that heals.

URRUELA: I'm finally in a place where I'm genuinely recovered and happy.

GUPTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, reporting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: At the top of the hour, coming up, Congressman Darrell Issa will join me, as he and the Republican Party are reacting to today's monumental Supreme Court decision that will keep Obamacare alive. He will weigh in.

Also, after 20 days of intense searching through the thick woods in Upstate New York, two escaped killers are still on the run. We'll look into a manhunt that lasted five years for the search for the Olympic Park bomber, Eric Rudolph.

Keep it here. You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:55:43] BALDWIN: Day 20 and the two escaped murders, David Sweat and Richard Matt, are still on the run. Soon veteran guard, Gene Palmer, is due in court and is now the second prison worker charged with their escape. According to sources, Palmer loaned tools to the inmates while they were on catwalks behind their cells. And since Matt and Sweat busted out, they have celebrated birthdays. In case you wanted to know, David Sweat turned 35 on June 14 and Richard Matt turned 49 today.

Investigators say they are armed and dangerous and expect the manhunt to come to a violent end.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEVIN MULVERHILL, SHERIFF, FRANKLIN COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT: I would point out to you, those of you not familiar with the area, the cabins in the area have shotguns and we believe that they are armed and they are extremely dangerous and cunning. Why wouldn't they try to arm themselves immediately upon escape?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: As police are searching for these two, CNN's Rosa Flores looks back at Eric Rudolph and how he managed to evade capture for five years.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(EXPLOSION)

(SHOUTING)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoa.

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He killed three people, injured dozens and terrorized the nation in the 1990s. Eric Rudolph, better known as the Olympic Park bomber, made the FBI's top-10 wanted list during the summer Olympics.

(EXPLOSION)

FLORES: And later bombing two abortion clinics and a lesbian bar.

Former CNN producer, Henry Schuster, and co-author of "Hunting Eric Rudolph," followed every step of the manhunt.

HENRY SCHUSTER, FORMER CNN PRODUCER & AUTHOR: He was smart. He was sly.

FLORES: Rudolph, a known loner and survivalist, managed to avoid authorities for five years in the thick Appalachian wilderness of North Carolina.

Early on, authorities say he never stayed in a camp for too long, always on the move and one step ahead of search teams.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody is watching their houses.

FLORES: Nearby residents were on alert while hundreds of agents combed the woods and inside caves. But the trail ended cold year after year.

SCHUSTER: Eric Rudolph had home field advantage. He had been playing in these woods since he was a kid. He camped in them when he was a teenager. He knew these woods intimately.

FLORES (on camera): Rudolph was spotted in July 1998. He turned up at the home of an owner of a health food store trying to buy food. The owner recognized him and refused. But when the owner returned two days later, he found that 75 pounds of food and his truck were missing. On the table, five $100 bills.

(voice-over): Authorities say Rudolph killed and ate turkeys, deer, bears, salamanders and stole corn, soybeans and other grains from bins at a giant cornfield. To stay warm during bitter cold winters, he would break into cabins and bundle himself up in piles of leaves.

SCHUSTER: Eric Rudolph was living off the grid before he actually had to go off the grid. It was as if he had been preparing for this.

FLORES: Despite years of searching for Rudolph deep in the woods, he was finally arrested dumpster diving in the back of a grocery store looking for fruits and vegetables to freeze for the winter.

SCHUSTER: It was luck. They had given up the hunt. They had given up the chase and he fell into their laps.

FLORES: After his arrest, Rudolph described his chase with police as a long camping trip that lasted five years.

Investigators in Upstate New York hunting for Richard Matt and David Sweat hopes it takes significantly less than half a decade to catch these two wanted fugitives.

Rosa Flores, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: And here we go, hour two. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

The big story today, the U.S. Supreme Court has once again saved Obamacare. In turn, it arguably gave President Obama the biggest win of his presidency. Bottom line, this is what you need to take away today, in this 6-3 decision, the court said that, yes, federal tax credits are valid in states that do not offer their own health exchanges.