Return to Transcripts main page

LEGAL VIEW WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

Fourth Show of Force; Prison Break Details; Terror Charges in New Jersey. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired July 3, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[12:00:00] KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: If you know someone like Shawn who should be recognized for their great and selfless work, please go to cnnheroes.com right now and tell us all about them.

I think, let's all say it together, happy birthday, America!

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Happy birthday, America!

BOLDUAN: And thanks for joining us AT THIS HOUR.

BERMAN: "LEGAL VIEW" with Ashleigh Banfield starts right now.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: A deadly New Jersey carjacking, now designated an act of terror by a suspect accused of a coast-to-coast killing spree to avenge the deaths of Mideast Muslims killed by American troops.

Also ahead, the letter that Richard Matt sent his daughter and the promise he made right before he and another murderer hacksawed their way out of a high-security prison.

And if there really is no such thing as bad publicity, well, this candidate's poll numbers might just keep going up and up and up. But getting dumped by networks and retailers can't be good for the bank account, can it?

Hello, everyone, I'm Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to LEGAL VIEW. Nice to have you with us.

We begin this holiday weekend as really no holiday, that is for tens of thousands of police officers and other first responders. Late this morning, New York Governor Andrew Cuomo joined officials in New York City and many other cities in ordering beefed-up security in light of perceived if not specific threats by ISIS. We've also learned the U.S. State Department has issued similar guidance to embassies and consulates right around the world.

Let's bring it right here to America, shall we? CNN's Boris Sanchez is live at New York City's Penn Station and our Rene Marsh is live in Washington.

I want to start with you, Boris, if I can. Set the scene for me at one of the busier train stations in this city.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, Ashleigh. About 42 million people are traveling throughout the United States

this weekend and law enforcement is focusing on travel hubs like here at Penn Station where we've seen an increased law enforcement presence throughout the entire morning. The governor, as you mentioned, expanding staffing and patrols at the emergency operations center here in the city. We've also learned that law enforcement has set up snipers and spotters in strategic locations to keep an eye on crowds. Officers are also scanning for explosives and radioactive devices on land, at sea, and from the air. They also have about 7,000 cameras scattered throughout the city again monitoring crowds for any suspicious activity. They say they are prepared for any kind of attack.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEP. COMM. JOHN MILLER, NYPD: The ISIS call, as well as that of other terrorist groups, has been to use what you have on hand. And that means, if you can make a bomb, you're a bomber. But if you can't, use a gun. And if you can't find a gun, use a knife. And if you can't find a knife, use a car. So when we look at that, that is a broad spectrum of threats and it's something to prepare for.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Governor Andrew Cuomo also asking New Yorkers to be vigilant and to immediately report anything out of place. Again, as you mentioned, Ashleigh, these precautions, not because of any specific threat, but rather because of recent world events, some bombings in the Mideast, as well as the attack in Tunisia. Obviously, law enforcement expecting a very busy weekend.

BANFIELD: Boris Sanchez live in Penn Station. Hold that thought for a moment.

I want to go down to the nation's capital. That's where Rene Marsh is standing by.

Does it seem like that den of activity that we were hearing about where Boris was located is as evident where you are?

RENE MARSH, CNN AVIATION & GOVT. REGULATION CORRESPONDENT: I would say, Ashleigh, if you look around, it is clear that we are in a period of high alert. We saw the canines out here at the Capitol, Capitol Hill Police saying that they have their officers strategically deployed throughout the Capitol grounds. The fencing is up. We - I'm talking about miles and miles of this link fencing all along the National Mall, as well as concrete barriers, metal barriers are up.

Federal agents, who are usually off for this holiday, they are on call. And weather permitting, what we will see tomorrow for the Fourth of July is hundreds of thousands of people all packed into this section here for that Fourth of July concert, and that is the sort of huge celebration that law enforcement officers are really going to be keeping a close eye on.

Of course, we had a dry run, so to speak, here in Washington, D.C., just yesterday. We saw a massive, massive police presence as they swarmed the navy yard. And that massive presence just speaks to just how on edge law enforcement is as we approach this holiday.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Our Rene Marsh live in the nation's capital. Thank you for that.

I want to bring in CNN's counterterrorism analyst and former CIA counterterrorism official Phil Mudd.

[12:05:00] Phil, what aren't we seeing? We're seeing what they're seeing, the physical, the people with guns, the extra special patrols. What aren't we seeing?

PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: When you're going behind the scenes, you've got threat briefings every day in the life I used to live at CIA and the FBI. You're looking at cases, sort of triage cases if you think of a hospital. What are the most serious cases you've got on the list? And when you've got a holiday like this coming up, you've got to ask yourself a question. If we're looking at cases, for example, where someone appears to be radicalized, conversations on FaceBook, for example, do you intervene early in an effort to prevent something that you can't see happening on July 4th but that might happen on the Fourth.

BANFIELD: So maybe some detentions could be happening today of people who were suspect up until now and they just don't want to give it the chance for tomorrow?

MUDD: You might go talk to them and say, hey, you know, we've been looking out for you. I don't expect to see anything happening here. Remember, there's another piece of this. When you go to talk to somebody, you've got to have enough evidence if you want to arrest them to bring them into court. So if you've got enough evidence today you might be saying, hey, maybe there's something more we should do. Maybe we should knock on some doors.

BANFIELD: So we hear about these, you know, Department of Homeland Security bulletins -

MUDD: Yes.

BANFIELD: Be on the alert, be aware, be careful, and I keep wondering, pragmatically, what does that mean for me? What does be alert, be aware mean? How am I supposed to behave? What am I supposed to be looking for?

MUDD: I think that's the problem with some of these warnings. When I see them come out, I understand there's a couple reasons for them. One is deterrence. If you're an unsophisticated plotter and you hear stories about 6,000 or 7,000 cops out on the street here in New York tomorrow, you're going to say, maybe I ought to have a second thought about doing something.

The second, as you mentioned, is about awareness. Back when we're facing the al Qaeda target, I don't know what I would have told my family. We might have a small group of people sent from Pakistan, you're never going to see them. In this new world, when you've got thousands of Twitter followers for ISIS, for example, the message about how to stop people isn't going to come from a federal security service, like the CIA, it's going to come from somebody who says, hey, there's a backpack over there. It shouldn't be there. There's nobody around that backpack. Maybe I ought to tell the cop on the beat.

BANFIELD: If you see something, say something.

MUDD: If you see something, say something, yes.

BANFIELD: That very simple principle.

Phil Mudd, thank you and thank you for coming in on a holiday. Appreciate it.

MUDD: Thank you. Sure.

BANFIELD: A Wisconsin man is being held today reportedly in a mental facility after threatening to kill President Obama. Brian Dutcher attended the president's speech yesterday in the Wisconsin town of Lacrosse and allegedly told a security guard there, quote, "the usurper is here and if I get a chance, I'll take him out," end quote. Sadly, threats against U.S. presidents are common occurrences and each of them is taken very seriously.

Coming up next, an escaped killer's letter to his daughter and a promise he thought he could keep, but he certainly did not.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:11:04] BANFIELD: We now know that prison escapee Richard Matt wrote his daughter before he and David Sweat broke out of the Clinton Correction Facility back on June the 6th. And that letter, as reported by the "Buffalo News," included this message, and I quote, "I always promised you I'd see you on the outside. I'm a man of my word." The letter had an immediate impact. Once she knew that her father had broken out, she requested round-the-clock protection.

We also know that Matt convinced prison co-worker Joyce Mitchell, the woman charged with helping the two escape, to call and text his daughter. That started months before the escape. But the daughter didn't know about the escape plan beforehand, according to authorities.

Deb Feyerick joins me live now with more on the story, and also in Washington, Jeff Dumas is a former sergeant at the Clinton Correctional Facility.

So talk to me a little bit about this news of a lockdown that we're just starting to hear about that had happened prior to the escape. Were Matt and Sweat locked down as well?

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, they weren't, and that's one of the things that's under investigation. BANFIELD: They were not?

FEYERICK: There was a prison riot about a week before this escape. About 30 inmates. It lasted less than a minute. There were no weapons that were found. But the problem is, is that the commanders, the superintendent, has to call headquarters, which is in Albany, in order to get authorization for a lockdown. They were given the information that they could do a partial lockdown, but this did not include the honor block.

Now, hindsight is 20/20. People are now saying, look, if they had locked down the entire facility, as requested, then they would have been able to search the cells, they would have been able to do the inside, the outside, the cat walk, all of that. It wasn't done.

BANFIELD: A lockdown means your cell is searched and the honor block, where they were housed, was not part of the lockdown?

FEYERICK: Well, that's exactly right, because it's unclear whether, in fact, anybody from the honor block was involved in the riot that took place.

BANFIELD: But effectively, and I'm just going to assume for a moment, that hacksaw that came in, in the frozen meat would have been in one of their cells.

FEYERICK: Correct. Absolutely - correct. I mean these cells - it is policy - it is prison policy. There's a directive that you are supposed to refer to, which means that inmates' cells have to be - you've got to do a cell frisk. This is to happen a couple of times a week, various cells. You sort of mix it up a lot so that nobody actually knows when their cell is going to be frisked. So that's the first thing.

The second thing is, is you're supposed to do a security inspection. So it's not just about looking for contraband in the cell itself, but it's also about looking at the structural integrity of the cell to make sure that nobody's trying to cut through any of the walls, any of the bars.

BANFIELD: Yes.

FEYERICK: And even because this prison is so old, you don't know if there's water damage that might be, you know, hurting the integrity of the bars.

BANFIELD: Sure.

Well, Jeff Dumas, maybe you can weigh in on that, having spent so much time at the Clinton Correctional Facility. I still can't get this through my head how a large section of both of their cells could be cut away for more than one day, because apparently they did a practice run the night before, without anybody knowing. How do you even conceal it, let alone escape any kind of scrutiny?

JEFF DUMAS, NY STATE DEPT. OF CORRECTIONS COMMUNITY SERVICES: Well, the cell searches that we do are computer generated. So they will come up with a block, a cell, a cell location for us. And that's what we go and search.

As far as concealment goes, a hole that big isn't going to be able to be concealed. It's concealed by the bed. You could see the position in some of the pictures where the convicts slid the bed up against it so it's underneath so anybody walking by wouldn't see it. Most generally, though, in past escapes, they will take a piece of cardboard, color it the same color as the - as the walls and then they will put a piece of tape over it, color that and you can go in and out but it still has the same color and it doesn't look like there's a hole there.

And as far as what she said about the prison lockdown, often times when the facility, indeed, goes to Albany because they want the permission to do that, Albany doesn't like to hear from the people on the ground. The people in the facility know the facility best. They know when it's time that we need a specific lockdown or a facility search. And when those recommendations go to Albany and they come back as a negative, you're not allowed to do that, not only does it hurt safety and security of the facility, but morale is killed, too, because the officers and the staff there that know the facility and know the inmates and know the atmosphere there are just being turned away like they don't matter.

[12:15:37] BANFIELD: Well, is it remarkable no matter what, looking at the size of the hole that was cut out of those walls and that they could conceal it at all.

DUMAS: Oh, yes.

BANFIELD: Thank you so much, Jeff Dumas. It's good to have your perspective on this. And also, Deb Feyerick, for the work that you've been doing, just getting such great details about this.

Coming up next, a disturbing first for New Jersey, something elevated a carjacking and murder to an act of terrorism. Those are the accusations, but can they prove them?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: As brutal as it was and as senseless and tragic as it was, there didn't seem to be anything historic about a deadly carjacking last summer in West Orange, New Jersey. And that has changed, big time, because now, for the first time in the history of the state, a murder suspect is also facing a state charge of terrorism because of that crime.

This is the man we're talking about, Ali Muhammad Brown, who allegedly told police, and I'll quote him, "my mission is revenge." Apparently it was revenge for deaths caused by U.S. military action in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan.

[12:20:11] Nineteen-year-old Brendan Tevlin was home on summer vacation from the University of Richmond when he was shot eight times while just sitting at a traffic light. Afterward, Brown allegedly drove the victim's car to a nearby apartment building and then dumped his body.

I want to bring in my two lawyers now, trial attorney and San Diego prosecutor Wendy Patrick, defense attorney and HLN legal analyst Joey Jackson, and here come the questions.

It seems unusual to hear about a state going after terror charge. It's always the feds that we hear hold that purview. Why would it be this way and is it more effective or less effective, Wendy?

WENDY PATRICK, SAN DIEGO PROSECUTOR: Well, I'll tell you what, that's why this case is garnering as much interest as it is because normally, you know, you think of a potential turf war if you're going to look at a state charge when you've got what's traditionally been used as a federal crime. But that's why this case is so interesting because New Jersey has a terrorist charge that they believe fit in this case. And what's also interesting is, they haven't really shown their hand as to all the different facts and circumstances they used to arrive at that. I expect we're going to start to see that once the case gets into a courtroom. But who's to say other states are not - are going to follow suit because there are other states as well that have little-used statutes, state statutes, that they can use instead of looking to the feds.

BANFIELD: Joey -

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: (INAUDIBLE).

BANFIELD: I was wondering if it had anything to do with the death penalty, because New Jersey does not have the death penalty. He wouldn't qualify under a state murder charge for the death penalty if he were convicted.

JACKSON: Right.

BANFIELD: Yet we now know, many who follow the Boston bomber, that Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is going to the death chamber because of terror.

JACKSON: It was federal, though.

BANFIELD: The feds could have done it.

JACKSON: Right. Right.

BANFIELD: The feds could have gotten a death penalty on him if they convicted him. The state can't. Is there anything to that for their choice?

JACKSON: Well, there could be, and let's talk about a couple of things. The first thing is, absolutely the death penalty was abolished under Corzine, the former governor of New Jersey, 2007. And so there are two ways really that a state-level prosecution could have approached this. The first way is to pursue a murder charge absent terrorism but to show that terror was a motivation. What would that have done? What that would have done is kept him, assuming there's a conviction, in jail for life. The second theory is to use the terrorism charge, as Wendy says is on the books there, and that charge you establish terrorism and then you establish there was a murder associated with that terrorism. That would have kept him in jail also for life. And so either way he's looking at life.

However, what we need to talk about and understand is that the federal government certainly is very good at prosecuting terrorism but states are their own individual, independent jurisdictions. There are 50 of them. And every state has an independent and a lawful and proper basis to prosecute any crimes that occur within their borders and in their jurisdiction and New Jersey has said that we're going to call this for what it is, and that is a terrorist attack. I think it's the right call, by the way.

BANFIELD: So some of the things - look, some of the legal filings have his quotations and, you know, it's rough to hear what he says about this poor kid who was just home from college sitting at a traffic light. But he said, you know, "for the lives, millions of lives are lost every day. These lives are taken every single day by America, by this government. So a life for a life." And he just considered it a just kill. I'm just doing my small part. These are the words that come, you know, from the authorities.

JACKSON: Right.

PATRICK: Absolutely.

BANFIELD: To me, that sounds like a slam dunk. And I know that federal prosecutors have a massive high rate of getting convictions once they go after something. It makes me give pause. Is it possible the evidence to the feds wasn't strong enough? They weren't going to go after it, so it had to be the state?

PATRICK: Well, I know that that's the way some people are looking at it as, you know, it don't get any better than this if you've got these kinds of statements.

BANFIELD: Yes.

PATRICK: You know, when we we're looking at regular murder charges, we don't to prove motive as prosecutors.

JACKSON: Right.

PATRICK: We'd like to and statements don't get any juicier than this when you're looking to, but they charged him with both murder and terrorism. Now, talking about jurisdictions, remember, he's facing three additional murder charges in Washington state. Those have hate crime allegations, which are death penalty eligible. The prosecutors there are still deciding whether they're going to seek that. And you just have to wonder, when you've got dulling jurisdictions and charges and different places in the country, how much it goes into the decision with what to charge what he may be facing in other states.

JACKSON: Absolutely. And kudos, I have to say, Ashleigh, to law enforcement for bringing him to justice in terms of the investigatory work that they did in this particular case.

PATRICK: Yes.

JACKSON: Getting surveillance video as it related to the crimes that occurred in Washington, seeing that he would have been in a Dodge Durango, calling ahead and saying, hey, have are there any crimes associated with a Durango? He happened to have been stopped a month earlier for having no plates. Then there was another murder that he engaged in. They found a palm print, tracked it to his girlfriend, ended up getting him, executed a search warrant, located, identified and brought him into custody. And so therefore, you know, police are working hard, as they should be.

BANFIELD: It's like you've already got discovery. Look at you.

PATRICK: Right.

JACKSON: That's it.

PATRICK: Well, remember, we've even got the distinctive bullet casings. Those 9 millimeter bullets.

BANFIELD: Right.

PATRICK: He used the same gun.

JACKSON: All match.

PATRICK: They all match.

JACKSON: That's right.

PATRICK: And he had the gun on him when he was apprehended. So it's almost like he didn't try to cover his tracks.

BANFIELD: I said slam dunk earlier.

JACKSON: Right.

BANFIELD: I thought O.J. was a slam dunk, so I will never call anything an official slam dunk, but it felt like a slam dunk when I read that.

[12:25:04] PATRICK: Not even someone as talented as Joey Jackson here may be able to get this guy off.

JACKSON: Stop! Stop!

PATRICK: No, really. He left a lot of clues here.

BANFIELD: You two. Look at you two.

JACKSON: (INAUDIBLE) love you.

BANFIELD: Wendy, Joey, thank you and happy Fourth.

JACKSON: Thank you, Ashleigh.

PATRICK: Happy Fourth.

JACKSON: Thank you.

BANFIELD: Continuing with the news. Police in Baltimore are investigating a highly unauthorized sign that was posted inside a prisoner transport van. I want you to see for yourself. It's pretty clear. It says, "enjoy your ride because we sure will." As if the city needed another reminder of the death of Freddie Gray back in April from injuries he suffered while cuffed and shackled but not restrained in the back of a van just like this one. The photos were obtained by "The Baltimore City" paper and CNN affiliate WBIL, which says they were taken on Tuesday. Tuesday. Tuesday. Meaning anyone who has seen that on the force knows what the force has been through. This has been confirmed and authenticated by officials as well. So there's that.

Up next, Donald Trump's controversial remarks may be paying off in the presidential polls, but for the moment things could change. It could be costly to him somewhere else, the bottom line. We'll explain.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[12:30:00] DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're bringing drugs, they're bringing crime, they're rapists.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: That's what started Donald Trump's firestorm.