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DR. DREW

An 8-Year-Old Schoolchild Treated Like A Criminal And Put In Handcuffs For Just Misbehaving; The Man Charged With Unlawfully Killing Cecil, The Lion, Speaks Out; Unbelievable Video Of A Newborn Rescued From A Toilet

Aired August 4, 2015 - 21:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[21:00:08] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Tonight an 8-year-old schoolchild treated like a criminal and put in handcuffs for just

misbehaving. Plus, the man charged with unlawfully killing Cecil, the lion, speaks out. And, unbelievable video of a newborn rescued from a

toilet.

It all starts right now with the "Top Of The Feed." Ending a third grader`s outburst by placing him in handcuffs could get a sheriff`s deputy

in big trouble. Let us take a look at the tape that launched a lawsuit against this deputy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OFFICER KEVIN SUMNER, KENTON COUNTY DEPUTY SHERIFF: Now, you are going to behave the way you know you are supposed to, or you suffer the

consequences. But it is you decision to behave this way. You do not get to swing at me like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice-over): The sheriff`s deputy now facing a federal lawsuit by the ACLU restrains the third grade boy with

handcuffs. According to the complaint, the boy`s arms pulled with excessive force behind his back.

He can be heard crying out in pain. The small 8-year-old child according to the lawsuit suffers from disabilities related to ADHD and a

history of trauma. It is shown in the 15-minute video, cuffed at the biceps, his wrists are apparently too small for the adult-sized restraints.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OFFICER SUMNER: You can do what we have asked you to or you can suffer the consequences.

CHILD: Oh, God it hurts. Stop.

OFFICER SUMNER: Now, sit in the chair like I have asked you to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: Joining me, Judy Ho, Clinical Psychologist and professor at Pepperdine University; Areva Martin, attorney and legal consultant; Dave

Rubin, comedian, also host of "The Rubin Report" on Ora TV; Georgianna Kelman, Attorney for Special Needs Children and Peter Haven, a Los Angeles

Trial Attorney.

The sheriff`s office defends this deputy saying, quote, "Covington Schools` personnel requested assistance, after school administrators`

efforts to deescalate and defuse a threat to others had proven unsuccessful. Deputy Sumner did what he is sworn to do and in conformity

with all constitutional and law enforcement standards, I steadfastly stand behind Deputy Sumner."

Georgiana is that appropriate for the office of the sheriff to stand behind this guy? Was it appropriate what the deputy did?

GEORGIANNA KELMAN, ATTORNEY FOR THE SPECIAL NEEDS CHILDREN: Reprehensible. 100 percent not appropriate. I cannot even begin to

understand how this can occur. First of all, I blamed the school. I do not understand how in this lawsuit, the school has not been named. They

are the ones that caused the situation to occur, by bringing in the deputy to begin with. They should have handled the situation on their own.

PINSKY: So, are you saying it is a tragedy and indictment of the system that they even had to have a law enforcement officer there? --

ATTY. KELMAN: Absolutely. This law enforcement officer had, absolutely, no business in this situation. The school needs to have proper

behavior intervention plans in place to defuse situations like this. This is not right to a level of bringing the police.

And, if there is imminent danger, if the child is in danger, if others are in danger, you call the authorities. This is the situation where the

school should have absolutely had the right staff in place to handle this situation, and not do what they did.

PINSKY: How did this happen, do you think? How do we end up with sheriffs in the school?

PETER HAVEN, LOS ANGELES TRIAL ATTORNEY: Well, that is a very good question, and that is part of what we call a School Resource Officer

program, which has emerged in the United States in the last several decades. And these SROs have been assigned to schools, they are law

enforcement officials, sheriff`s deputies or police officers, they are uniformed, they are there to try to uphold and maintain the law. And,

these school assignments become in effect their beat or their jurisdiction.

ATTY. KELMAN: But they are used to treating criminal behavior. These are children with disabilities. You do not call the authorities to come in

to deal with a child that is having a tantrum or some sort of escalating behavior.

You need to have the staff in place, proper interventionists to come in, clear the situation, make the space safe for the child and de-escalate.

There is no reason for authorities to be involved. They are not trained to handle children with disabilities.

PINSKY: And, Judy, you have been in these environments and, you know, you have seen this kind of thing go down. It is sort of an indictment on

the school, they needed to have somebody like this even available. This guy, apparently, was a teacher for four years before he became a sheriff?

JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST AND PROFESSOR AT PEPPERDINE UNIVERSITY: That is right. You know, when we behaviorals talk about how

to intervene, we do not intervene on the back end, we intervene on the front-end. We train our teachers. We train our specialists.

But, the resources are not always available. And, when people are frustrated, they do very impulsive things. I used to work in a special

education program, and these were students, who were in-patient. They were living in-group homes and they would come down to the school.

PINSKY: Let us talk about it -- and when people say -- hear special needs, they think cognitive impairment --

HO: Right.

PINSKY: -- like there is something intellectually wrong with these kids. We are not talking about that kind of a situation.

HO: No.

ATTY. KELMAN: No.

PINSKY: We are talking about in this particular kid had Attention Deficit Disorder.

HO: That is right.

PINSKY: He had some sort of traumatic heritage. He had PTSD. So, we are really talking about a psychiatric case.

HO: Psychiatric cases, what we call externalizing behaviors, like acting out, aggression, not listening to the teachers. And, when I worked

in this environment --

PINSKY: Are they in the general population, kids like this?

(CROSSTALK)

HO: Absolutely.

PINSKY: Can be.

HO: There is a percentage of them.

ATTY. KELMAN: Absolutely. If there is the right support in place, they absolutely can be mainstreamed included, but you have to have that

right support in place.

AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY AND LEGAL CONSULTANT: I think we should give some context to this, Dr. Drew. I -- you know, I am a children rights

advocate. I represent families whose kids have been treated like this -- 163,000 kids are subject to restraints in schools and about 75 percent of

those kids are special needs kids. And, when we say special needs that runs the gamut from kids who have ADHD, kids who have autism, kids who have

learning disabilities.

[21:05:15] PINSKY: What do restraints mean? It sounds --

ATTY. MARTIN: Well, it means trying to physically restraint the child. What we see in this case is putting handcuffs on this child. This

child, if he has special needs, this whole school environment should be governed by a contract called an Individual Education Program.

And, that should dictate what happens when this child has any kind of acting-out behavior. So, there should be some replacement behaviors, not

this kind of criminalization of a kid who maybe is having a simple meltdown.

HO: And, Dr. Drew, when we talk about physical restraints, there are actually programs that you can as an adult -- and usually, these are team

of adults, you can appropriately restrain a child by not hurting them, not with handcuffs, but there are these structured programs you go through.

Unfortunately, people do not abide by these programs. So, when she say, two people have to be present, and they have to restrain a child in

this way, where it does not hurt the child. I see people, one adult going to slam the child against the wall.

PINSKY: You have seen that?

HO: I have seen that myself.

DAVE RUBIN, COMEDIAN: I think we are sort of glossing overseeing here, which is whether this kid had ADHD or any issues, when we watch that

all of us, did not you have a guttural feeling that this kid, an 8-year-old kid -- we just watched an 8-year-old kid in handcuffs.

PINSKY: You know what, Dave --

RUBIN: Issue is enough.

PINSKY: -- that to me is the easy part of the story. I mean all of us look at that and go, "Oh, my God. It is impossible." I want to

understand how that happened. I want to understand -- because if for instance this kid was violent or trying to harm himself -- I mean there are

circumstances where you have to do any means to help somebody from hurting themselves, Areva --

ATTY. MARTIN: If child is --

PINSKY: This is not that, though.

RUBIN: Right.

ATTY. MARTIN: If the child is endangering others around him or endangering himself --

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Imminent. Even if--

ATTY. MARTIN: We talked about lazy parenting, Dr. Drew --

PINSKY: Even that can be de-escalated.

ATTY. MARTIN: This is lazy discipline by the school district, because no one took the time to talk to this child. No one took the time to

intervene in a way that did not --

PINSKY: We do not know that. We do not know.

ATTY. MARTIN: Well, we do know that, Dr. Drew. We know it, because - -

(CROSSTALK)

ATTY. KELMAN: How about we call the parents? How about we call the parents?

PINSKY: Yes, but --

ATTY. MARTIN: Well, we know that, Dr. Drew, because the child would not have ended up in handcuffs if the properly trained adult in this

situation, not the officer, but the properly trained adult would have intervened.

PINSKY: Peter.

ATTY. HAVEN: Well, you know, what we are really talking about here are a whole lot of ifs, and a whole lot of how this happen and a whole lot

of information that we really do not know.

PINSKY: Yes.

ATTY. HAVEN: The fact of the matter is, this officer was assigned to this particular school. There was a need him for him, and part of the

purpose of these officers being in these schools on these assignments is to help preserve some semblance of order and safety. We do not know what

happened prior to this. But, we --

ATTY. KELMAN: We know that they went -- he escorted the child to the bathroom, walked him back. The child elbowed him, and he thought it was a

good idea to put him in handcuffs.

HO: But, Dr. Drew, there is a system`s issue here, because whoever is the administrator and a decision maker at this school has decided that the

SRO should step in instead of instituting a training program for the existing faculty to deal with the children.

ATTY. MARTIN: And, I have a problem with the concept of order. We are not talking about disruptive children. We are talking about one child

walking with one adult. The kid weighed about 52 pounds. And, if we cannot figure out a better way to discipline and to get --

PINSKY: Not discipline.

ATTY. MARTIN: Well, that is not discipline at all. But, if we cannot figure out a better way to intervene with kids --

ATTY. KELMAN: Positively.

ATTY. MARTIN: That positive intervention, positive supports, alternative behaviors other than putting handcuffs, what are we going to

expect from this child as an adult?

ATTY. KELMAN: Children with disabilities are not punished. Behavior intervention, positive behavior intervention is key. You do not punish

these children. The problem is, authorities are not trained on how to handle children with special needs.

PINSKY: And, the attorneys, if you all remember what it used to be like in psychiatric hospitals with restraints. Do you remember? I mean I

was there. You were there. I saw the evolution of this.

Back in the 80`s, leather restraints were a routine sort of implementation of care. People will put in leather restraints that harshly

a lot. Finally, towards the end of the 80`s, people are thought that is ridiculous.

HO: Right.

ATTY. MATIN: In 22 states, Dr. Drew, have eliminated --

PINSKY: Completely. Completely.

ATTY. MARTIN: -- this type of restraints for kids completely.

PINSKY: And, for adults too, but in a lot of states. And, so the fact is the psychiatric community came up with techniques. That is what

Judy is talking about, where you can show force, where you can deescalate. We can find an identified individual that relates to that particular

student or patient that can deescalate these things --

HO: Right.

PINSKY: -- readily easily, but they -- it is like they have not caught up with this. The Law enforcement has to catch up with this too.

When I have seen some of horrible cases we have been talking about lately, where a single law enforcement officer is trying to intervene on somebody,

I keep thinking, why are not they thinking about the ways to deescalate this situation that we now know so well. Again, I do not know criminals.

I know psychiatric patients. You know what I am saying? This is not --

ATTY. MARTIN: There is no criminal in this video.

PINSKY: That is right. That is the point. This is not a criminal.

RUBIN: He is being treated like a criminal, because --

PINSKY: That is the point. Right. You are absolutely right. That is the point, which is that as a guy that is used to dealing with criminals

treating this kid with psychological --

RUBIN: Even where he placed the handcuffs, by putting them up there instead of down here.

PINSKY: Well, and also it is a shackle. It is not even a handcuff.

HO: Yes.

PINSKY: It is a right -- right, you know, cuff to cuff. We are going to continue this.

And, later, a minutes old baby, rescued from a deepest -- currently, upside down in a toilet. There it is. Back after this.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

[21:10:03] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: The officer`s attorney told the "Lexington Herald Leader" that the kids were, quote, "Placing themselves

and other people in danger of harm," but handcuffs?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OFFICER SUMNER: If you want the handcuffs off, you are going to have to behave and ask me nicely. And, if you are behaving, I will take them

off. But as long as you are acting up, you are not going to get them off.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST OF "NANCY GRACE" PROGRAM: Handcuffing on an 8- year-old? OK, I would start with time-out. I would start with calling the parents to come pick him up and take him home. There are a lot of

alternatives.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OFFICER SUMNER: Look at me for a minute. Look at me for a minute. Look at me. If you want the handcuffs off, you got to stop kicking. You

want them off or not?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Lawsuit states the child -- quote, "The child admittedly did not listen to the directives from his teacher or vice principle and was

removed from his class. The child would not sit down."

Back with Judy, Areva, Dave, Georgianna and Peter. And, first of all, Georgianna, did you ever think you would find yourself agreeing with Nancy

Grace, wholeheartedly?

(LAUGHING)

[21:15:03] ATTY. KELMAN: Never -- I mean I do.

PINSKY: Enthusiastically.

ATTY. KELMAN: I am shocked.

PINSKY: Enthusiastically.

ATTY. KELMAN: I enthusiastically agree.

PINSKY: Get the parents.

ATTY. KELMAN: Absolutely.

PINSKY: But you said this is not an uncommon thing. I cannot believe that.

ATTY. KELMAN: It is not. It is not.

PINSKY: Why is it possible?

ATTY. KELMAN: What happens is schools do not have enough resources. There should be proper staff that is trained to handle children with

disabilities, whether it is autism, ADHD, or any other escalating behaviors, you need to have proper trained staff to handle these children.

What happens is schools automatically default to calling the authorities. Authorities are not trained to deal with these children. So,

you end up in situation like this. This is an isolated incident. The fact that this officer thought it was a good idea to put a 9-year-old in

handcuffs is shocking to me. I think that is an isolated incident.

PINSKY: But to be fair, what else did he have? What else this guy have except --

ATTY. MARTIN: Well, it was not isolated in this case, Dr. Drew, because we know in this lawsuit, there are two incidents.

ATTY. KELMAN: Right. There were two.

ATTY. MARTIN: There was that little girl who was also subject to this kind of behavior.

ATTY. KELMAN: She was placed in an isolation room --

ATTY. MARTIN: Room. Yes.

ATTY. KELMAN: -- because she acted out on some maladaptive behavior.

PINSKY: Right, which is again --

HO: An isolation room just traumatizes them further --

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Slow down. Slow down. We used to have isolation rooms in adolescent in all over the country, right?

HO: I know. I worked at one of them.

PINSKY: We did away with them for the most part, right?

HO: Yes. Yes!

ATTY. MARTIN: It evolved.

HO: But, they were terrible. I mean I remembered there were people - -

PINSKY: It evolved. The hospitals have evolved either. It feels like the rest of the institutions around kids have not.

HO: Yes, they are like back in the `80s still.

PINSKY: Yes.

HO: Back to the restraints. And, this is the problem with these two children, specifically, not only do they have special needs, they also have

a history of trauma. What we see with these children, when they get exposed to this type of -- I cannot even call it discipline, they end up

later on in the juvenile justice system.

PINSK: Shocking.

HO: They end up later on as adults as criminals, because of what they are exposed to.

RUBIN: As not the lawyer nor the medical professional on the panel --

ATTY. MARTIN: That is OK.

(LAUGHING)

RUBIN: -- then what are we supposed to -- as the regular -- no problem. But, then what are we supposed to do? In no way am I condoning

this. It is awful. But like -- so, OK, because I think your point was --

ATTY. KELMAN: -- have in place can handle a child like that.

PINSKY: OK.

RUBIN: But, what if that --

PINSKY: What if that is expensive? That sounds expensive.

HO: Yes.

ATTY. KELMAN: It is expensive. But, guess what? --

ATTY. MARTIN: Let me --

ATTY. KELMAN: It is the law.

ATTY. MRTIN: Yes.

ATTY. KELMAN: If the child`s IEP calls for a specific behavior and --

PINSKY: IEP?

ATTY. KELMAN: -- Individualized Education Plan -- Program for children with disabilities, it is federalized. It is mandated. If the IEP

calls for a specific behavior intervention plan, which requires calls support from a certified behaviorist that can support a child when they are

escalating, that must be provided. I do not care what the dollars must be --

ATTY. MARTIN: Let us be cleared. The federal law says it has to be provided without regard to the cost. School districts are required and

parents need to know that.

ATTY. KELMAN: Absolutely.

ATTY. MARTIN: In this case, parents need to know that there are alternatives and that they can ask for parent training themselves --

(CROSSTALK)

HO: But, here is the problem.

ATTY. MARTIN: -- because a lot of parents may not know this.

HO: They do not get identified for these programs. Once they are identified, they are linked in that type. But half the times, the school

staff do not even identified --

ATTY. KELMAN: But, even when they are identified, they do not have the right support in placed -- even when they are identified.

(CROSSTALK)

HO: That is right.

ATTY. KELMAN: It is what I fight for on a daily basis.

ATTY. MARTIN: But, let us be clear.

ATTY. KELMAN: They actually do not have the right supporting placement.

ATTY. MARTIN: In this case, this kid has been identified. So, we are not talking about a kid that has --

ATTY. KELMAN: But, we are assuming --

ATTY. MARTIN: Well, we know the lawsuit has identified and we know the school has acknowledged that this kid has special needs.

ATTY. KELMAN: Right.

ATTY. MARTIN: So, somebody in this system knows that this kid needs some extra support, some extra help --

HO: Right.

ATTY. MARTIN: -- and calling the sheriff was not the way to deal with that.

HO: But they did not refer this child to an IEP. That is the main problem.

ATTY. KELMAN: Well, I suspect he might have a 504 plan, which is a civil rights law. --

PINSKY: What is that?

ATTY. KELMAN: You support children with certain level of disabilities, that do not rise the level of an IEP.

HO: That is right.

ATTY. KELMAN: So, the right supports are not in place. If he has an IEP plan, he is likely going to have this support.

PINSKY: But, guys --

ATTY. MARTIN: And, I am going to step out of my lawyer hat --

PINSKY: I do not think that is possible.

ATTY. MARTIN: -- and step into my mom hat.

PINSKY: Oh, I have seen that.

ATTY. MARTIN: I am a mother of a Special Needs Child. I want my child to be treated with compassion. I do not want my child to be

handcuffed. And, If I send my child to school, I think you -- you have been to college, right? You have a master is degree or something or

something, you cannot figure out what to do with my child other than call the police and handcuff him?

PINSKY: Are we going to blame educators?

ATTY. KELMAN: Yes, we are going to blame them with this.

ATTY. MARTIN: A little common sense in this case.

ATTY. KELMAN: Yes. Common sense.

ATTY. MARTIN: This is a simple case of common sense.

(CROSSTALK)

ATTY. KELMAN: But, I think --

PINSKY: Let me -- I -- Actually, Areva, we are running out of time. I have to read the statements. Let me get through it. Georgianna, I will

let you take off.

(LAUGHING)

ATTY. KELMAN: OK. Go ahead.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: The school district says this about its resource officers, quote, "They are not called upon by the school district staff to punish or

discipline a student who engages in school-related offense." School district is not being sued, though you guys say it should be. Is there

another thing you guys, want me to read here. OK, that is it. But, go ahead. Finish it up.

ATTY. KELMAN: I lay equal blame with the school. Again, the right resources in placed --

ATTY. MARTIN: Absolutely.

PINSKY: With the administration.

ATTY. KELMAN: Absolutely, I blame the school for that.

PINSKY: But Georgianna, you are saying that -- hang on. It is very confusing anybody watching this conversation. I am sure at home. Forget

all the issues that you and I are bringing up, about how this should be done.

The fact is, you are saying that there is a mandate, that is independent of cost, that there has to be done. There are all these kids,

who have these needs and every day there are kids, who are not getting their needs met. What is the problem? Peter, what do you think?

ATTY. KELMAN: Everyday.

ATTY. HAVEN: Well, one of the things that we are talking about here is, we are properly asking questions from the perspective of the special

needs student, but the school system has an obligation to all the students and all the family members. And, it is an obligation to try to provide a

conducive educational environment for everyone. And, that is one of the reasons why the special resource officer is there.

[21:20:04] PINSKY: So, I am going to stop you, and just say -- so it sounds, just as -- I am not an expert in this area, like there is not

enough money for the school to do its job.

ATTY. HAVEN: Even if the Federal Lanterman Act, which is what we are talking about, prescribes that schools have to do this regardless of cost.

The simple reality is that cost comes into play no matter what.

PINSKY: Because there is so many --

ATTY. KELMAN: So, which --

PINSKY: Wait Georgianna. Because there are so many different issues at hand that none of them are getting up to where they need to be.

HO: Right.

ATTY. MARTIN: We should stay focused on this case. This case is a little kid walking from the bathroom with an adult. So, we have to think

about what do you want an adult to know in that situation. If you are a parent and your kid elbowed you at home and you took the steps that this

guy took, somebody would call child protective services.

ATTY. KELMAN: Right.

ATTY. MARTIN: I would think, mandatory reporter that might be you, right? Call the Child Protective Services.

HO: Right.

ATTY. MARTIN: So, we should not hold these officers to any standard less than what we hold parents to. All we are asking for is some

compassion in dealing with kids, recognizing when they have issues and not expecting them to be like adults. Kids have tantrums. That happens every

day in school.

ATTY. KELMAN: Perception of disabilities.

HO: Right.

ATTY. KELMAN: I do not think as a country we have come to see that these are real issues. A child with ADHD, a lot of --

PINSKY: Yes.

ATTY. KELMAN: You know, a police officer might think, "Oh, just a spoiled child, who should be disciplined."

HO: Well, yes.

ATTY. KELMAN: That perception needs to change.

HO: Adults see it as a willful behavior.

PINSKY: Parenting problems.

HO: Parenting problems. And, you know what? This is not something that is intentional on the --

PINSKY: OK.

(CROSSTALK)

ATTY. MARTIN: Of the kid.

ATTY. KELMAN: Of the child.

HO: -- On behalf of the child.

(CROSSTALKS)

ATTY. MARTIN: Stop crying if you want the handcuffs off?

ATTY. KELMAN: What I want people to know is these behaviors are rooted in a disability, and they have to be treated differently, not

punished.

ATTY. MARTIN: Intervention not handcuffed.

PINSKY: And, I would even say there is a bigger issue here, which is, that we are not -- we are in such denial about mental health and mental

health issues that even the families, the parents, the schools are not getting the help, as you say, proactively, who said, we need to be

proactive, not responding after the fact.

HO: Absolutely.

ATTY. KELMAN: It is the reactive system. That is the problem.

PINSKY: And, I hate the fact that we are sort of taking issue with the educators who have burdened so profoundly already, and I am sure would

happily take more funds to do more with all the things that we ask them to do.

But, as a bigger sort just a global issue here, which is that our mental health resources are inadequate. And, it is the school and the

prisons and law enforcement that are picking up the pieces, and that is not fair either.

Coming up, the guy who helped shoot and kill Cecil, the lion, is speaking out. Here is what he is saying tonight. Back after this.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[21:26:19] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Effective immediately, Delta and American airlines are banning the shipment of big game trophies as

freight. The band comes after protests like this around the world, sparked by the recent slaughter of an African lion named Cecil at the hands of the

-- of an American dentist.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: And, we are talking about trophies, trophies are the heads and pelts of these animals.

Hunters are talking about the big five. These are lions. These are leopards. You can see them on your screen. These are the big five game

that hunters pay a lot of money for the right to go and legally try to kill.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROMANS: Experts saying that lion trophies are the most prized here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: So, it does not matter if they are illegally killed or not.

ROMANS: It does not matter if it is legal, they do not --

COSTELLO: Delta and American, no.

ROMANS: They do not want to be in the business.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Two dead lions killed during, what it called, "Trophy Hunts" in Africa, have put hunting in the crosshairs. Back with Judy, Areva,

Dave, Georgianna. Joining us now, Scott Nathan, a Big Game Hunter, himself and Simone Reyes, Animal Rights Activist. All right, Georgianna, what

about this ban on the transportation by the airlines?

ATTY. KELMAN: It is ridiculous. It is bandwagon. They are just going with the winds of public opinion.

PINSKY: That is PR?

ATTY. KELMAN: Yes, absolutely. Two weeks ago, where was there high moral ground then? This is like the same thing with Donald Trump and the

confederate flag. Same stuff. People jump on the bandwagon, and the second that public opinion goes one way. They head the same way, at least

they are genuine.

PINSKY: Simone, is some of this sort of hysteria, or is there a -- you know, the way the mob behaves in social media, is this just more of

that?

SIMONE REYES, ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Well, if we are having a time when the mob is walking toward compassion, then I say let the mob run

everybody else over who wants to murder and kill animals, absolutely.

PINSKY: Let the mob rule, Areva.

ATTY. MARTIN: Well, I tend to agree that, you know, public opinion matters. No matter what you think about social media, it dictates how

companies make decisions, how the government makes decisions. And, yes, like the confederate flag, like Donald Trump --

PINSKY: It is the new Times Square, yes.

ATTY. KELMAN: Absolutely.

ATTY. MARTIN: And, in this case, I think the airlines were smart. Over 80 percent of Americans disagree with Big Game hunting, so they are

following what the constituents that they cater to think about this whole situation. So, I think it was smart on their part.

PINSKY: But, what about -- we have been talking about humans being killed on this show regularly and -- there was excitement, but not as much

as it has been about the big game.

RUBIN: Right. Forget humans, nobody cares about humans, apparently. But if you care about animals, go ahead and open up YouTube and watch what

they do to factory farmed chickens every day that we all do horrible things -- you know, boiling them alive, breaking beaks off things like that.

Look, I am not for shooting these animals, of course. But, in terms of the mob and marching to the mob, I think the interesting thing here is,

we are marching to destroy this dentist that five days ago none of us ever heard of. And, now his house is being vandalized. They are throwing pig`s

feet at it.

It is like that is the mob that I think interests me at this moment, because I know this is the outrage machine, and we all do this, but that

guy -- he is nobody in the scheme of this, and yet if we could put a price on his head, plenty of people would be going for that.

PINSKY: Which is pretty scary, right?

HO: Right. I mean to think a little of this is that we tend to sympathize more with animals, where there is absolutely no need for them as

food, and animals are cute and cuddly or majestic.

I mean nobody is yelling about the thousands of chickens that are being killed right as we are having this show, but people are upset about

the giraffe that Sandra killed and they are upset about this lion. And, there is something to that. You know like, these are the animals you go to

the zoos to visit and to have fun with.

ATTY. KELMAN: What about human parts, where is the outrage there?

PINSKY: Well, there was some outrage, but it was not as exciting.

ATTY. KELMAN: Not even an Ayotta compared to what what Cecil, the lion, has received in terms of the reaction.

RUBIN: Do you think there is some disassociation with that. Sometimes, the human pain is too much. It is like when you see a homeless

person with a dog, often I find myself empathizing with the dog more.

PINSKY: Yes.

RUBIN: I know that sounds awful.

PINSKY: Yes. It does sound awful.

(LAUGHING)

[21:30:00] RUBIN: But, do not you feel that sometimes?

PINSKY: But it goes through your own pain, right? All right, but Scott, help us reconcile in all of this. So, there is the fact that people

ignore what we put -- what we eat when we go to McDonald`s and how that is processed and the killings that goes involved -- I know -- and everyone

does, and Simone does.

But a lot of people do, and yet they today are experiencing outrage at this particular killing. And, a lot of hunters are calling themselves

conservationists and they are there to do something where they connect themselves to the process of obtaining the nutrition, right?

SCOTT NATHAN, BIG GAME HUNTER: Correct.

PINSKY: Tell us about these different issues.

NATHAN: I mean the way I see it is I do not understand moral outrage in this area, because man has been hunting for sustenance in this world for

more than a hundreds of thousands of years and only not been hunting for what? 75 years? You know, to me a chicken that is born and dies in the

same cage, that is cruel. An animal -- a wild animal who was taken humanely, that is an animal whose life has meaning.

PINSKY: Now, you were not a hunter to begin with?

NATHAN: No. I was not a hunter until my 40s. I was just called out by a friend who said, "If it you are going to eat meat, everyone should pay

the full karmic price for their meal one time." And I said, "You know what? I am on board with that." You know, it may turn me into a vegan.

You know what it turned me into a hunter.

PINSKY: Simone?

REYES: Well, first of all, I take issue with the word humane, especially when we are talking about killing the lives of innocent animals.

That said, Main Bowhunters Association predicts -- they estimate that about 50 percent of those animals that are killed with bows and arrows are

injured, not killed.

So, you either have them dying of starvation, you have their families being you know, torn apart. Their babies being orphaned. So, to use the

word humane when it comes to any kind of hunting, I take issue with that word completely.

NATHAN: Does not PETA have a 96 percent kill rate at their shelters, the highest in the entire country.

REYES: Right now, actually, we are talking -- PETA, by the way, I am a PETA supporter very much so. However, right now we are talking about

hunting, trophy hunting, sport hunting. And, right now --

NATHAN: You said murder, which is illegal term, by the way.

PINSKY: But, let us get to the fact that -- I think one of the things she is focusing in on, I would love to hear more about this, which is the

feeling that a human gets from killing an animal. That is hard for --

REYES: It is the thrill of the kill. It is the thrill of the kills.

PINSKY: Well, talk to me about that.

REYES: No, it is not.

PINSKY: What is it?

REYES: No. It is -- I thought it was going to be a terribly sad that I took a life, but honestly, it felt like -- and I have had pets my whole

life. My house growing up as a Mananjary. It felt like harvesting a natural resource. It felt like something that was in my DNA was awakened.

PINSKY: What about conservation Simone? I mean what about if there is an excessive amount of predators out there and they are allowed to be

killed on a hunting basis. They are helping ecosystem.

REYES: Animals have historically been very good with the ecosystem of keeping their numbers at a manageable place. What people forget is that,

state and wildlife agencies are primarily run and funded by hunters. So, what is happening is, these areas are being overpopulated by animals. They

are feeding animals.

They are making it easier to have them be in dens, so that they will be able to constantly being -- having babies, Constantly be upping the

numbers, so that they get the money for their wildlife licenses, for their hunting licenses. This is a for profit business.

PINSKY: So, Simone, I hear you say a few things. There is a big business here that is being supported.

REYES: Absolutely.

PINSKY: And, there is a feeling, a behavior -- well, a motivation -- I am having trouble getting my head around, which is killing. You are

saying that is a separate motivation. Scott says no, though.

REYES: It is absolutely. When you do not need to kill animals, this is not prehistoric times. There is a want to kill animals. And if you

want to kill animals, it is because you enjoy seeing them being run out of their homes, tricked, terrorized and bloodied in front of you.

RUBIN: Of course she is right. If it was a need, then poor people would be doing it. But there is a reason that it is only rich people that

are doing it.

NATHAN: That is not true. This entire country is filled with people who fill their freezers with it every day. You know --

REYES: 5 to 6 percent of people of our population are hunters.

RUBIN: What do you mean, with lions that they lead out into a trail?

NATHAN: I am not talking about trophy lion hunting. I am talking about people in Wisconsin that all business is closed for the Deer Opening

Season, and they fill their freezers with it.

And, you know what? Veganism is a choice, but being an omnivore is who we are. It is by nature. If your ancestors were not hunters, you

would not be here today. --

REYES: With all due respect -- with all due respect.

NATHAN: -- And, that is an immutable enviable incontrovertible fact.

REYES: With all due respect, I do not think that we can use the word choice. Give the animals a choice, what is their choice? It would be to

live at least they are young.

NATHAN: PETA believes in total animal liberation. They believe that animals would be dead rather than in the care of human beings. They

believe humans should be extinct and animals should be left to take over the earth, is not that true?

REYES: Animals to take over the earth, I do not know where you are getting your information from --

NATHAN: I got it from Ingrid Newkirk, your founder.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: Speaking of choices, I choose to continue this conversation after the break.

RUBIN: I think that was "Planet of the Apes."

(LAUGHING)

[21:35:00] PINSKY: And, we may yet be extinct. We might work ourselves into that yet. And, later, who would have a baby and then flush

it down the toilet. That is what authorities found and want to know. Back after this.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LISA BLOOM, TRIAL ATTORNEY: How is it a sport if one side is armed and the other side does not know the game is on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VANESSA BARNETT, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: I was seeing all these issues, Cecil, the lion, and you know, lion lives matter. And, I just saw it more

than I saw black lives matter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARNETT: We have dominion over animals. We are the superior species around here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAMERON HANES, BIG HUNTER GAME: Cecil would not care about any of this. He would not know, he is an animal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLARK: Cameron.

HANES: Yes.

CLARK: You said that the lion does not care -- that Cecil, the lion does not care, how do you know that?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HANES: Here is why we do what we do, right here. There is no disconnect here. Hunters are honest about where their meat comes from.

This is elk and this is bear, from the bear I killed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL CATHERWOOD, "LOVE LINE" AND KABC RADIO CO-HOST AND HOST OF "CHAIN REACTION" ON GSN: In my opinion, you should either be vegan or be

like Cameron and feed his family like a real man should.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[21:40:00] PINSKY: The killing of two lions in Africa spun this outrage. Why people are not just as upset about human beings being killed,

is an interesting question. I am back with Judy, Areva, Dave, Scott, Georgianna and Simone.

Now, the guy accused of helping this American hunter stalk Cecil told the telegraph, quote, "I was devastated. I could not have seen the collar

at night. We would never shoot a collard animal. I was devastated, and so as the client. We were both upset and I panicked and took it off and put

it in a tree." I guess he means the collar?

ATTY. MARTIN: The collar.

PINSKY: The collar identifies Cecil.

HO: Yes.

PINSKY: And, last night, we argued whether Cecil would care about this story. If you heard some of them in that intro, what everybody is

saying? Take a look at some of this argument, have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLARK: Cameron.

HANES: Yes.

CLARK: You said that the lion does not care that Cecil, the lion does not care. How do you know that? And, I think -- and for you to think that

we are above the animals. Who do you think you are? --

CATHERWOOD: No. Listen, Sandra. Sandra, I am a huge -- I do not eat meat. I am acutely aware of how animals have feelings. But, make no

mistakes if Cecil had his choice, he would eat all of us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: Yes. And, Judy, that is what people -- we idealize animals.

HO: Right.

PINSKY: We do not really have an interaction with them in a real way. Certainly, not predator animals.

HO: Right. I mean --

PINSKY: I got attacked by a hawk the other day. I just admired them.

HO: Right. We attribute human feelings on to animals. The way that we attributes some of our own feelings onto other people to understand this

situation.

PINSKY: Yes.

HO: And, obviously, we do not know what the lion was feeling at this point, that is absolutely true. And, the lion is a predatory animal. He

will also hunt and he will eat. So, this is part of the problem -- and this is part of the problem too. I mean, this is the issue, though, I

think that people are really up in arms about this because of the way that there has been so much emotion around the fact that it seems like he was

just standing like minding its own business.

PINSKY: Yes.

HO: But, that is not usually how it is in its own habitat.

PINSKY: It is that and the lack of justification for this.

HO: Right.

PINSKY: I mean, they are -- you know, it is hard -- people argue, we heard Cameron arguing about actually going and getting the meat, harvesting

it himself, and feeding his family. Mike Catherwood said, it is being a man to do that. And, he prefer to do that, otherwise he is vegan. I think

that is easy to get our head around. But, just going and getting trophies, which apparently is quite a big business, Simone. I am sure you will be a

legist by that. But, I want to ask Scott --

NATHAN: I am not on board with the sole trophy hunting. I have no trophies in my house, by the way. I am not averse to the idea of doing it,

but it has to be incidental.

PINSKY: Why not? Why not averse to it?

NATHAN: I am not adverse to it, because if the trophy is incidental it is fine. I am averse to this sole trophy hunting. Does that make

sense?

PINSKY: It is incidental to the hunting of food.

NATHAN: Meaning -- yes, meaning --

PINSKY: You get a grizzly bear to help with conservation?

NATHAN: No. If I -- like for example. I took an impala and wildebeest the last time I was there. We had a big BBQ, and a whole group

of us, eight impala and then I donated 900 pounds of meat to a neighboring township.

And, these people had tears in their eyes. And, I was like, do they not appreciate this? And, they said, "No, this is the first protein we

have had in four months." And, I said, "What have you, people, been eating?"

They said, "Come with me." Woman opens up a shed, and there is bags of cornmeal and gallon jugs of palm oil. And, I said, "This is all you

have been eating?" They said, "This is all there is."

ATTY. MARTIN: But, I do not think that is the conversation that people are having on, you know, social media and the media.

HO: Right.

ATTY. MARTIN: They are having a conversation about these trophy hunts. Not people who are killing animals to feed villages.

PINSKY: But, Areva, I think you are getting confused about all these issues. I think. I am confused about this.

ATTY. MARTIN: Well, they are complaining the issue. There is a separate issue about this trophy hunting that has people up and arms.

NATHAN: But, if I may, there is a law of intended consequences. And, Kenya is a prime example. A lot of people want there to be hunting banned.

And, that happened in 1977 in Kenya. And, what happened was, this was a very well intended thing.

Sure, it sounds like a good idea. Save all the animals. Well, the outfit has rolled up their tents. Everybody split town. They took their

fences with them and the poachers came in and they killed almost every single elephant there. Killed 75 percent of all of the animals left. And,

that population continues to decline.

PINSKY: So, Simone, how do we reconcile all these things?

REYES: Well, first of all, at the rate we are going, studies have shown estimated in the next 10 to 20 years, we will not be even having this

conversation, because there will not be any lions or elephants left.

NATHAN: That is not true.

REYES: It is absolutely true. Every 15th. Every --

NATHAN: Lions populations are growing in Tanzania, Botswana, in Namibia, South Africa.

REYES: In 25 African nations, there are no more lions.

PINSKY: You are right.

REYES: That is because of hunting, and that is because we have got --

NATHAN: That is not true.

REYES: We evolved as a human species to the point of we do not need to be killing animals. We do not need to be bringing that kind of violence

into an already violent world, and yet constantly people say, "It is a choice." Well, we are the animal rights movement, and nonviolent movement

and our entire premise is on doing no harm, and people that have an issue - -

NATHAN: You fired bomb medical clinics, what do you mean nonviolent.

REYES: We do not.

NATHAN: You are the biggest, the most violent people ever --

REYES: We are a nonviolent movement. I do not know, who you are talking about. The animal rights movement is a nonviolent --

NATHAN: There are court cases on it.

REYES: We do not.

[21:45:00] NATHAN: You have financed domestic terror groups. It is a fact.

REYES: We are not in any way OK with hurting people -- yes, property has been damaged by some animal rights groups. I do not know why you are

looking at me in particular about that.

NATHAN: Because it is PETA.

REYES: I am a vegan, nonviolent person as are everybody that I know in this movement, and all we are trying to do is to save some lives and not

have orphaned baby cubs or any other animal.

NATHAN: I understand. I understand. If I may -- if I may.

ATTY. MARTIN: And, if I may just add, Dr. Drew.

NATHAN: If I may --

ATTY. MARTIN: Can I just say this one second.

NATHAN: Yes, please.

ATTY. MARTIN: I think it is important to note that even non-animal rights people have gotten involved in this debate. So, this is not just

PETA and this is not just traditional animal rights activists. This is a large swath of people who believe that what happened in this case was

absolutely, unequivocally, wrong.

PINSKY: It is an outrage.

NATHAN: It is wrong.

PINSKY: Last up. Real quick. I got to go. Go ahead.

NATHAN: The greatest threat to lions in Africa is not hunters, and it is not even -- The greatest threat to lions is human encroachment and

livestock ranchers.

PINSKY: Sort of taking away the land, taking away their territory.

NATHAN: 100 percent and killing livestock.

PINSKY: Well, that is another issue. I always appreciate -- PETA will take people on board that do not -- some of these organizations you

have to tow the entire party line, and they will not -- PETA will let you come in for certain issues, which I have always admired, though, to let you

support whatever issues you want.

REYES: For an equal opportunity, compassionate movement.

PINSKY: Yes. A lot of organizations like, "If you do not tow the whole party line, you are an enemy."

So, next up, Kim Richards is arrested again. It is sad. This time, shoplifting. I am hearing rumors from TMZ. She is living in her car, TMZ

said this. Back after this.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: Time for "Click Fix," where my guests tell me what is trending on their Twitter, Facebook and Instagram feed. Judy, go ahead.

HO: OK. Well, 85-year-old Pat Robertson is at it again.

PINSKY: Oh-uh.

HO: There was a viewer on the "700 Club," who had a question for him about homosexuality and look what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TERRY MEEUWSEN, CO-HOST OF THE "700 CLUB": This is Ian, who says I am really in deep confusion, and I really need answers. "Can God take away

the same sex attraction? Can God change a homosexual to straight?"

PAT ROBERTSON, HOST OF THE "700 CLUB": Yes, God can. It is a miracle, but God can do it. Someone was asking me for council the other

day, and so I met this son. He was a feminine from the time he was young. And, now he says he is gay.

And, I said to her. I said, does he want to be a girl? And, she said, no. I said, why he does not want to be a girl. Basically, he wants

to be a man. And, if he wants to be a man. There is no reason that he cannot start acting like one. God can take care of this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RUBIN: Can I feel this one directly to this camera 2 over here. Pat, you can come out all ready. It is time. Like you are repressing some

serious --

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: That would be difficult.

HO: Well, he is obviously confusing homosexuality with gender identity.

PINSKY: Very much.

HO: And, he has no idea what he is talking about. But for him, what it means to be gay is the same thing as a man wanting to be a girl. That

is kind of what he was speaking to.

PINSKY: And, the idea that it requires a miracle from God to correct this is what damage people.

HO: Yes.

RUBIN: This is the man who also thinks that gay men having sex can cause earthquakes.

PINSKY: Nice!

HO: True.

RUBIN: That is true. I live in west Hollywood. It is true.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: So, what do you go there? What do you have for me.

RUBIN: OK. I cannot go a couple weeks without Kim Richards. It is blowing up my feet.

PINSKY: It is so sad.

RUBIN: Yes. So, the latest is that she was arrested for shoplifting. But, before we get to that, just a little background. She was arrested in

April after a so-called drunken rampage at the Beverly Hills Hotel. She went to rehab and she got out a couple weeks ago. TMZ is saying that she

was busted at Target for trying to steal about $600 worth of items.

PINSKY: Wow.

RUBIN: She spent Sunday night in jail. She was released after posting $5,000 bail. How much stuff do you have to buy at Target to steal

$600 worth of --

HO: It is not that hard, though.

RUBIN: Yes. Is not it?

ATTY. MARTIN: She needs a wardrobe for her show. So, she might have been, you know, lifting some wardrobe -- make-up, items for the show.

HO: They sell T.V`s there. One T.V., right there.

PINSKY: A little sort of clinical aside. In my experience, when women, particularly, get going with opiates and then try to get off of the

opiates, they will start to shoplift. I have seen this a number of times. Yes.

ATTY. MARTIN: Even if they do not need it? So, it is not financially.

PINSKY: Not financial -- although, in Kim`s case, there is some question of her living in her car, some rumor we are hearing. But, they

need the high from the excitement when they are withdrawal. But, also the high of like the danger, sort of alleviates some of the opiate withdrawal

symptoms. I think -- I have seen it a number of times.

HO: Oh my goodness.

PINSKY: Areva.

ATTY. MARTIN: Yes. Mine is not as light as that. I have a terrifying video of a train versus car.

PINSKY: Oh-uh.

ATTY. MARTIN: Never do this. 125,000 views on YouTube. A driver is attempting -- look at it to cross railroad tracks as the gate comes down.

The arm strikes the vehicle, and the car stalls. This is your worst nightmare.

The driver attempts to get out of the vehicle, but he is not moving fast enough, thankfully a nearby police officer hears the collision and

pulls the driver to safety. Guess what?

PINSKY: Wow!

ATTY. MARTIN: This guy probably was under the influence.

PINSKY: Shocking, but again, police are not so bad --

ATTY. MARTIN: Scary. Do not try to beat a train.

PINSKY: Do not be afraid of police.

ATTY. MARTIN: Never try to beat a train. And, never try when you are under the influence.

PINSKY: There you go. How about just not driving across the train.

HO: Yes. What is he doing in the car?

PINSKY: Next up a just born and brand newly delivered baby is rescued from a toilet in a public bathroom. We will have that after this.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

[21:54:55] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: All right, my "Click Fix." I have a warning. And, this is disturbing video out of Beijing. A newborn stuck face down in a public

toilet, it is unbelievably. He is pulled to safety by -- Oh my God! -- by a police officer.

Residents of an impoverished neighborhood, who share a sole public bathroom heard crying and then called police. A nearby construction worker

recorded the dramatic rescue. It is just too much. The baby girl is in stable condition. Police are in pursue or at least trying to find the

mother this. You notice, you know, how these things are configured.

HO: Yes.

PINSKY: It is like perfect birthing. Is that amazing? And, I guess the child was not under water because they could hear the crying. Just too

much.

All right, a reminder everybody. Thank you for watching. We are on Snap Chat, please join us there. You can see some behind the scenes action

of what happens before the show, it is DrDrewHLN right there. DVR us, then you can watch us anytime. Thank you, panel. Great job. Thank you for

watching. And, we will see you next time.

[22:00:00] (MUSIC PLAYING)

END