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GOP Debate Preview; Interview with George Pataki; Aircraft Debris Confirmed from Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired August 5, 2015 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00] DON LEMON, CNN TONIGHT SHOW HOST: More than 6 million viewers watched the finale of Donald Trump's celebrity "Apprentice." Still, will more tune to watch him in the republican debate.
This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon. And the countdown is on. By this time tomorrow night, the 10 selected candidates will with battling it out in primetime. And front runner Trump says he'd like to play nice with his rivals, but.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Certainly, I don't want to attack. If I'm attacked, I have to, you know, do something back. But I'd like it to be very civil.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Well, the question is, how civil will Trump's opponents be towards him? And what about the early debate, will it prove to be a better testing ground with GOP ideas because Trump won't be part of it?
We have a lot to get to ahead this hour but Trump takes center stage in the debate along with Jeb Bush, his closest rivals in the polls. But before that, the 7 candidates who did not make the cut for the primetime battle will face off in what's being dubbed the happy hour debate.
Former New York Governor, George Pataki is one of those candidates and he joins me right now. Good evening, governor. It's a pleasure to have you here.
So, you didn't make it into the prime time debate, but we're going to see you at the happy hour debate. That's what Lindsey Graham is calling it.
You know, not being on the same stage with Donald Trump, is it going to work to your advantage do you think?
GEORGE PATAKI, FORMER NEW YORK CITY GOVERNOR: You know, it's too bad at this point that the media company is deciding who the American people choose from. Donald Trump is there because he's a celebrity. He's a -- as you were just saying, he had this reality show that millions of people watch.
I'm going to be with the governor of Texas. I'm going to be with other strong leaders. I'm proud of that. And I just hope I have the opportunity to express my vision as to how we can bring Americans together and solve the problems facing our country.
LEMON: The people who have responded to the polls would say that Donald Trump is there because they've responded. Not necessarily because of what Fox News decided.
PATAKI: Well, for them, in August of the year before the election, it's about name I.D., it's about celebrity. It's about having a talk show that's being related to presidents. You know, if LeBron James were in this mix, he'd be in the 7 o'clock debate and the governor of Ohio would be with me. It's just that early and that's what it's based on.
But, ultimately, Don, what people are going to want is leadership that can bring us together. Not just do sound bites or theater but solve problems. I know I can do that. I know I can -- I did it in New York, I can do it in America.
LEMON: OK. So, let me ask you. Why did you want to, Governor, this crowded race, with all due respect, after 10 years out of politics? I mean, d with so many candidates?
PATAKI: Because, in my mind, there has never been a greater need to change the direction of Washington. We have a government now where the politicians and their elite friends think they know better than us and have to tell us how we live our lives.
That's not the way America is supposed to work. The people are supposed to tell the politicians what they do not the politicians dictating to the people what we must do. So, we have to change that direction of government.
And to do that, Don, you have to do two things. You have to win. I won three times in one of the bluest states in America. I know if I get the opportunity to lead my party, I can win in the United States. And then you have to change government.
And I did it overwhelmingly with a more than 2 to 1 state house in democratic hands. So, you have to win. I can do that. You have to change government and govern successfully, bringing people together across party lines. I can do that. The need for change is real. I'm the person who can bring it.
LEMON: OK. So, you think you're the person who brings it. Meanwhile, there are several people who are at the top of the polls who are polling higher than you are. One of them, of course, is Donald Trump. You must know the man socially and professionally, after all, you're the governor of New York. What do you think of the guy?
PATAKI: I knew him. You know, Donald and I have always gotten along. He's supported me. He actually made significant contributions until I won the great governor I was. We always got along well. But, ultimately, it's not going to be about celebrity. It's not going
to be about name I.D. It's not going to be about taking a chainsaw to the tax code or setting your phone on fire. It's about having solutions that the American people can relate to and being able to accomplish those solutions.
To do that, Don, you can't do that just as a republican. You can't do that just as a democrat. We have too much division for partisan and political benefit. You need to bring people together across party lines. I can do that. That's why I'm running.
LEMON: Do you think that -- and what if your -- you're saying you know the guy and you like him. You feel that you should be there in the main debate because of what he's doing. Because he's tapped into something, you mentioned, you know, Washington is not working right. He's tapped into some sort of anger. But do you think that he is turning this into a reality show?
PATAKI: I think too much of Washington is a reality show. Look at tonight, you turn on every TV show and 90 percent of it is about Donald Trump. It's not about how we stand up to radical Islam and ISIS.
[22:05:02] It's not about I'm doing the Iranian nuclear deal which is horrible for us and for our allies. It's not about creating good middle class manufacturing jobs, blue collar jobs that Americans need.
It's all about theater. And I'm not about theater. I'm about governing and bringing people together. So, maybe that's a liability. But ultimately, it allows me to govern successfully and I did it in New York.
So, I'm a great believer in this country and the wisdom of its people. People always get excited. . They love the theater. But ultimately, they're going to want leadership that can solve problems. That's me.
LEMON: Governor, I want to ask you about this before I go because you've been on the show, you've accepted invitation. But people say, you know, Donald Trump you're looking he's everywhere. That's because he accepts the invitation to come on. He accepts the invitation from CNN, from Fox, from ABC, from NBC, from anyone who will have him on.
Many of the candidates don't do that. Yet, they complain about Donald Trump soaking up so much of the media time.
PATAKI: Yes. I mean, you can't have it both ways. You can't turn down the opportunity to make the case for yourself and then complain that you don't have the opportunity.
PATAKI: Don, when you give on the chance I'm happy to come on because I believe in this country. I believe in bringing people together. I know I can do that.
LEMON: Good luck tomorrow night. We will be watching you. And we thank you for coming on. We'll have you back any time, governor. I appreciate it.
PATAKI: Thank you, Don. Great to be on.
LEMON: Thank you. Donald Trump is up into the race and it's standing firmly at the top of the republican heat that we've been watching the polls and you see that. So, what is the best way to take him on?
I'm joined now by Rick Wilson, republican strategist, and Brett O'Donnell, also republican strategist who is a debate adviser to Senator Lindsey Graham. Good to see all of you. Why are you smiling, Rick? What's going on? Why are you laughing?
RICK WILSON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Brett and I are friends.
LEMON: OK. Did I -- all right. All right. I just want to make sure. I didn't say anything. I didn't say you weren't friends. But, anyway, if you were advising -- if you were advising Jeb Bush or Scott Walker or any of the other candidates, how should they take on the Donald? What should they say to Trump to right just out of the gate?
WILSON: Look, all these guys have a record of leadership and confidence and execution. Was that Brett or me? Pardon me for that.
LEMON: No, that's to -- go ahead, Rick.
WILSON: Sorry. They all have a record of leadership and confidence in the execution. And the thing about Donald Trump is that he's got a very beautiful superficial attraction to people who aren't paying attention beyond the celebrity image.
And so, if they can drag him to getting to talk about specifics, getting to talk about details, they're taking apart and this is resembling to some of the lavish promise as he makes about, you know, mile-high border walls and the Mexican government paying for it, and dismantle some of that stuff. I think Donald Trump is going to have a much more difficult time especially under the rules that people make...
LEMON: A lot of people make campaign promises that they don't follow it through on. He's not the first person to do it if he doesn't.
WILSON: His are more huge.
LEMON: And terrific. That was actually a very good come back. But, Brett, on to you. Candidates are going to have a chance for re-battles any time that their name is brought up and someone else's answer. If everyone is attacking Donald Trump, won't that end up working in his favor?
BRETT O'DONNELL, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Absolutely. It will end up being the Donald Trump show. That's why I've said consistently that most of the candidates on that stage, if they were wise, rather than attacking Donald Trump and making him the center of attention, they'd be better served to wait for Donald Trump to attack them. Have an effective counter punch and then pivot back to the two people
we really should be talking about. President Obama and Hillary Clinton. The failed policies of this administration and whether or not we offer a better vision than Hillary Clinton for the future moving forward.
If candidates don't do that, it will play into Donald's hands. The better thing to do is for them to make their case. Donald Trump is out in front because of name I.D. People know him. They've seen his television show. People really don't these other candidates yet and they've got to know them
The way for them to be known is to pivot from Donald Trump, push him to where he needs to be off of the center, and then introduce themselves through their vision and talk about Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama and go after them.
LEMON: Do you think people don't know Rick Perry? You think people don't know Jeb Bush?
O'DONNELL: I don't think they know them as well as they know Donald Trump. And Donald Trump came out with a fire. He tapped into a sector of republicans who are angry at government. They're upset with Washington. They don't like the way it's working. And he's sort of tapped into that.
I think they're going to get a chance. You know, debates are a great place where voters get to make head-to-head comparisons between candidates. Tomorrow night they're going to get to make those assessments.
But they can only do it if they understand who the other people are on the stage, rather than making Donald Trump the center of attention...
O'DONNELL: ... and everything being about him. If that happens, he's going to come out on top.
[22:10:00] LEMON: You know, Ricky shared a bit of strategy on GMA this morning. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I don't want to attack anybody. You know, I'll be attacked and maybe not. I'd rather just discuss the issues. But, you know, certainly, I don't want to attack. If I'm attacked, I have to, you know, do something back. But I'd like it to be very civil.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. So, then is that, then, Rick, how do they get under his skin then if he's not going to fire off at them unless they attack him.
WILSON: Well, I don't think we can necessarily rely on Donald Trump to maintain a lot of verbal and message discipline in the course of the debate. I think he's going to want to in at the scene. I think he's going to want to suck the oxygen in the room.
I think Brett is right. I mean, we're looking at a guy who is celebrity first. He is a guy who's been on the public eye for 25 years or more. He's been on television for a decade but he's not accustomed to the structures and rules and protocols of how presidential debate is going to work.
And I don't think Bret Baier is going to let him get away with a lot of the shenanigans. And I think all the other guys, like I said, these are people who have run for office, who have accomplishments, who have philosophies, who have a lot of things that they can talk about and articulate.
And it really is something that I don't think you're going to see Trump be able to resist taking pokes at Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, and others at this event. I just don't think he's got the discipline to stay focus throughout the whole camp -- the whole debate.
LEMON: Go ahead, Brett.
O'DONNELL: Rick is absolutely right about that. I mean, Donald Trump can say he's not going to attack. But, you know, he said earlier, I'm not going to attack, you know, I might draw some distinctions, but I'm not going to attack.
And then he proceeds to call out the people who have attacked him and attack them. So, he attacks even when he says he's not attacking. But the very fact that we're continuing to talk about Trump builds his name I.D. up. And that's why I think the 5 o'clock debate, where a person like Lindsey Graham can makes his case about being commander- in-chief without the destruction of Trump makes that debate very interesting and much more sustenance in my opinion.
LEMON: Yes. You know, Chris Wallace says that he's going to be throwing some douses out to these candidates because he wants to get them off topic and off script. But when I heard them say that, I thought that place right into Donald Trump's hands, Brett.
O'DONNELL: Yes, I agree with that. I mean, I think the moderators -- and I actually think that the three moderators are pretty good for tomorrow night. And I do think that they will try to -- hopefully keep the debate focus on substantive issues.
If you're throwing out what I call process questions, fly questions about, you know, different things that have nothing to do with substantive issues. That's not the kind of debate we really need.
We need to get to know these candidates and what their vision for America is.
LEMON: Rick, Brett, I'm glad you guys are friends. I appreciate it. I'll see you guys soon right here on this program.
WILSON: Thanks, Don.
O'DONNELL: Thanks, Don.
LEMON: Much more ahead on tomorrow's big debate. The stage in Cleveland is ready to go. And you'll never guess who reportedly encourage Donald Trump to play a bigger role in the GOP. Guess who encouraged him to do it.
Also, Malaysia says the chunk of debris that washed ashore is from MH370. And it gives a major clue of what might have happened on board to bring that plane down.
[22:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All eyes will be on Donald Trump. Donald Trump in tomorrow night's debate. And his rivals was GOP nomination are under pressure to grab the spotlight into our point with voters.
Joining me now is Gloria Borger, CNN's chief political analyst, and Nia-Malika Henderson, CNN's senior political reporter. I hope you guys are friends like the last two guests. I mean...
GLORIA BORGER, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.
LEMON: OK, great. All right.
BORGER: Yes, definitely.
LEMON: All right. Gloria, you first. Even if the candidates decided they don't want to mix it up tomorrow night with Donald Trump. The moderators have been signaling that they're going to try to get Trump to take them on. So, what do you expect to see?
BORGER: Well, I think there's going to be a little tug of war there. Because obviously, Donald Trump wants to look presidential. I think we heard that from him on "Good Morning America." And I think I talked to a couple of republican campaigns that are going to be on the stage with him. And they're feeling if there's nothing in it for us to take him on.
They're all going to be ready with a couple of zingers if he takes them on. But they feel that they have to provide a contrast with Donald Trump. And in providing that contrast, tell people why they should be president of the United States.
But the journalists have a different role. The journalists, I would argue, and you've got three good journalists there, they are going to try and pin Donald Trump down on something called issues and specifics. And when it comes to that, then maybe the other candidates will take him on issues trying to say, look, he's not as conservative as he says is.
LEMON: OK. So, Nia, here's what -- as I'm sitting, watching, you know, we have all the monitors up every station around the country and you see the pictures up there and you see Donald Trump. He's very animated. When you see the other candidates and people will pass by, oh, my
gosh, that other guy, so boring. Donald Trump, oh, he's the man. He's like, he's so animated. So, if you're a potential candidate, candidate Nia-Malika Henderson, what would your strategy be tomorrow night if you were participating in this debate? How would you take him on?
NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: I think you sort of have to ignore him. He does what he does, right? He understands TV better than anyone on that stage. It really is a charisma deficit with those other guys. You said some of them are boring. I won't necessarily use that kinds of phrasing.
But there is sort of flattens to a lot of these other candidates. I think they've got to look alive, they've got to come through with some passion. They've got to talk about their issues present their own case, as Gloria said. If they get sucked into the Donald Trump vortex they're going to lose this thing because he's just better at TV.
I bet the crowd is going to be sort of a six men and possibly on his side in this thing because they want to see some red meat too. So, I think if you're Jeb Bush, if you're Scott Walker, if you're of those middle tier candidates particularly Rand Paul, Marco Rubio, folks like those, you really want to use this moment to breakthrough rather than try to break out into a fight with Donald trump.
BORGER: And you know, there is the danger also, by the way. If you take on Donald Trump frontally, you risk losing his supporters. Because one day, you want those people.
[22:20:00] BORGER: You don't want to get them angry at you. So, you have to figure out a way to deal with Donald Trump without angering them.
BORGER: And that's, you know, that's not that easy to do.
LEMON: I want to -- both of you have covered this, you know, covered the debates. What role does a crowd play in that, Nia, and then, Gloria, what does that -- how's that going to play into it?
HENDERSON: Yes. Well, there was that famous debate moment between Newt Gingrich and our very own John King down in South Carolina when he was able to really go after John King down there when he asked the question about his marriage.
Newt Gingrich obviously didn't like that very much, the crowd very much on Newt Gingrich's side. And he understands crowd somebody like Mike Huckabee who is a preacher. He's going to understand how to get the crowd involved. I think if the crowd is on your side, you look like you're sort of the winner. You looked like you've got all of this support. But I think you're going to have those candidates if they're smart.
HENDERSON: A plane to that crowd.
LEMON: A quick answer, Gloria, and then I want to move on and ask about the Clinton camp.
BORGER: Yes. Now, I think the crowd can applaud and, you know, maybe the moderators are going to say we don't want any of that. You know, you don't know. I think from a television perspective, it's always interesting to see what the audience does.
And I think look, these are politicians, except for Donald Trump who says he's not, but these are people who know how to play to a crowd. So, you can just assume they're always going to be doing that and it's going to become part of the debate.
LEMON: OK. So, Gloria, let's talk about this because both parties and both the Trump and the Clinton camps have confirmed that Bill Clinton and Donald Trump have spoken in late May in a Washington Post says, "Clinton encourage Trump to play a bigger role in the GOP."
So, what do you make of this? So, people are saying, this is brilliant on both Clinton's part.
BORGER: Well, that goes without saying. You know, we don't know all the details of the story. It's been reported that Donald trump tried to reach Bill Clinton a few times and then Clinton finally, Clinton called him back in May. They are, as you know, they have a pre- existing relationship.
The Clinton's attended Donald Trump's third wedding. Donald Trump has contributed to the Clinton Foundation and it's clear that in some way, shape, or form, Donald Trump raised the possibility of him running.
The Clinton people say, presidential politics was not discussed but the stamp ballot...
LEMON: Do they want him in, though? Do the Clintons want him in?
BORGER: Why not?
BORGER: Look at what happened.
LEMON: She was like, yes.
BORGER: If you're also Clinton and you're at the other end of the line and Donald Trump is saying I'm thinking about running for the presidency, you're going aha, aha.
BORGER: Sure, right? LEMON: Yes.
BORGER: So, why would Bill Clinton discourage him or in any way, shape or form him. I mean, whether he encouraged him as a matter for more reporting, but I do, you know, I do believe it doesn't hurt Hillary Clinton to have Donald Trump sucking all the oxygen away from Jeb Bush.
LEMON: Ok. So, careful what you ask for. And I have to ask you this, Nia, because Jeff Greenfield of Politico, he wrote a piece called, "What if Trump wins?" And he says it's not really that far-fetched an idea at all.
Is that voters have rejected the political clash and favor of flamboyant characters before with Jessie Ventura in Minnesota, Arnold Schwarzenegger in California and then he writes this. He says, "The gambler in me still says that Trump falls to earth - maybe with a crash by virtue of his own hand or mouth or with a slow fade to the margins. All I mean to do here is to note that there are times in politics when the Black Swan shows up, when the highly unlikely, highly improbable event shatters years' worth of assumptions when voters see and then grasp an audacious possibility."
I have been saying this from the very beginning. So, what do you both think about it? First, Nia.
HENDERSON: You know, maybe. I think when we're talking about Trump.
HENDERSON: ... the caveat is always -- you know, I don't think so. I think all of history that suggests that the moderate candidate and the candidate that the party backs, the candidate with all the millions of dollars and the infrastructure eventually pulls this thing out.
Again, if you look back at this point in 2011 or so, I think Rick Perry was way out in front. So, I think time will tell. I think it's improbable. I think those comparisons with governors not really the same thing where you're talking about a national candidate and the presidency. But who knows, stranger things have happened.
LEMON: But, Gloria, when you look at Reagan, you look at Carly, President Obama now...
LEMON: ... people have said, oh, my gosh, they don't really have a chance. And now, Donald trump is coming up with this I'm not like him, I'm not going to take it anymore and he's -- yes. And so, people...
BORGER: That's why I love it. I mean, that's why I love politics. Because actually, you have to wait for the voters to tell you what they want. And what they're going to do. And a lot of people in this country would have said, you know, Hillary Clinton is going to beat Barack Obama.
It came out of nowhere, first African-American, country is not ready for it. You know, you've heard it all. And then Barack Obama is elected President of the United States. So, I would say...
[22:25:01] LEMON: Reagan is an actor. He's not -- he doesn't stand a chance, yes.
BORGER: Right. And I would say this. I would say I believe it's improbable. I don't believe anything is impossible because I do believe the voters ought to be given a chance to actually decide for themselves.
LEMON: I love talking to you two. It's always a pleasure.
BORGER: Thank you.
LEMON: Thank you, too. See you soon.
HENDERSON: Thank you, Don.
LEMON: Good luck tomorrow 9, Nia. All right.
BORGER: Yes. All of us.
HENDERSON: Thank you.
LEMON: Yes, all of you, guys. All right.
LEMON: Coming up the other GOP candidates may gang up on Donald Trump tomorrow night. But what about Hillary Clinton? Will she be the real target at this debate? More on that next.
LEMON: Bush versus Clinton. What is this, 1992 all over again? But I'm not talking about that Bush versus Clinton. I'm talking about Jeb and Hillary. But Americans are tired of this two political dynasties.
Joining me now is Connie Mack, former republican congressman from Florida and a Jeb Bush supporter. Also with us, Lanny Davis, he's a former White House special counsel during the Clinton administration. They are both executive vice presidents at LEVICK.
CONNIE MACK, FORMER FLORIDA REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN: Go, LEVICK.
LEMON: Two more friends -- two more friends with us. So this is going to be a big love for us. I love you, man, you're right. You're right.
[22:30:02] MACK: I don't know who said we are friends. I just want to mess up his hair.
LEMON: So, Connie, you know what, everybody I'm talking to is saying, I'm going to watch this debate. People are saying oh, my gosh, you know, Donald Trump should just be normal. If Donald doesn't show up, people are going to be upset.
Absolutely. They're expecting the Donald. They're expecting the showbiz and the, you know, the kind of over the top rhetoric that might go well on a TV show when you're yelling at people and you're fired and all that kind of stuff. But in the long run, it's not playing that in politics. If that Donald Trump doesn't show up, people are going to go, wait a second, who is this guys? And be very disappointed.
LEMON: Lanny, everybody is talking about Donald Trump, but how big a target do you think is Hillary Clinton is going to be during tomorrow's debate?
LANNY DAVIS, THE HILL COLUMNIST: Well, let's put it this way. It's about the only thing that they'll be taking about that they'll agree on and they'll hammer and hammer away which is what she is accustomed to from both republicans and lots of other people.
So, that sort of customary. She'll be the target. It's kind of a compliment because she's the person that I think has the greatest stature in the most likely the future president. But that's my bias showing.
MACK: Don, she'll definitely be the target because every candidate is going to be trying to show that they have what it takes to go up against Hillary and win and win on a substance. And I think at the end of the day, that's why Donald Trump will be the bombastic Donald Trump that he needs to be.
If he doesn't, he fades away. But if he does, all of the other candidates are going to say, wait a second, it's the policy's decisions of Hillary Clinton that we're worried about and that we want to defend ourselves.
LEMON: But isn't the problem with that is that they're kind of bore people office, you know...
LEMON: ... they sleep when they do that.
MACK: It's August, 2015.
MACK: I mean, you know, people are more interested in Donald Trump's hair right now than they are in the rest except for those of that watch it all the time.
LEMON: I think there are people who are going to be interested in what he has to say, though. I mean, obviously, look, look at this poll numbers.
MACK: There's a segment that's very interested to hear on the immigration. That is an area where there are a lot of angst and energy, he taps into that. Unfortunately, he does it in a way that minimizes people.
MACK: That attacks people, and that's just not going to work. That's not who the Republican Party is.
LEMON: Lanny, I thought kind of he's your friend because he's doing most of the talking here, but...
MACK: I learned that from last time, Lanny.
LEMON: Before Trump, though, Jeb Bush was the front runner. He had the money. He had everything locked up and a large portion of the Republican Party doesn't seem that interested in him right now. Is that a real problem for him do you think, Lanny?
DAVIS: You know, we are at a very bizarre period where people forget that this is actually quite serious. We face the threat of ISIS. We face an economy that really needs to grow faster and employ people better. We have a lot of issues in this country.
This is not a reality show. It's not circus. It's not about TV ratings. I understand what you're saying about looking forward to it, Don. But, at some point, this is the summer. It is going to get serious.
And serious candidates with serious differences like Jeb Bush and Hillary Clinton need to debate the issues and different approaches from a conservative and liberal system of play.
LEMON: Lanny, if I can...
DAVIS: And I think that's what you're going to end up with at the end of the day.
LEMON: But if I can just jump in here. If people are interested in bombast or if they're interested in Donald Trump as a personality or even as Connie said, his hair, or whatever.
LEMON: Whatever they're interested in, isn't that an opportunity to pull people in who might not have been pulled into this...
DAVID: Sure. LEMON: ... may not have been interested in politics. That -- I think
the Republican Party has a big opportunity there.
DAVIS: Look, it's definitely got a plus side. That more people who are not interested in politics will be watching. But if it turns into a circus and Trump has the ability - what he said about McCain, what he said about immigrants - to be hateful and despicable and mean spirited...
LEMON: You got to go to the party.
DAVIS: ... that side to...
LEMON: You got to get him to the party because...
DAVIS: He'll increase ratings by those kinds of attacks but it's not very good for the country.
MACK: Don, and I would just say this. That I don't think he does bring new people to the party. He brings people maybe to watch this debate in August when they might not have in the past. But...
LEMON: Yes. But if the other candidates are saying substantive things even if they come to the party, even if they come to watch Donald Trump at the candidates, it gives the other candidates an opportunity as well. It gives them more ads, Connie.
MACK: Well, I would suspect that a lot of viewership tomorrow are going to be democrats who can't vote in the primary in the republican primary. And they are the ones that are going to be watching.
[22:34:54] I mean, I just, I think if you look passed at the past elections even four years ago, you know, every week we had a different leader in the Republican Party. Herman Cain, Rick Santorum, you name it. We have, you know, Newt Gingrich, they were - different candidates arising to the top.
And that didn't bring new people to the party. It just said that at that point people were looking for something that they didn't see yet. But when they get to the point where they are going to vote, that's not where they end up. They want someone who can be a serious leader for this country.
And I think what Lanny said is right. That between Hillary Clinton and Jeb Bush, you will get a debate that is about the issues, they will elevate the debate. It will be something that I think America can be proud of, of that debate. You can decide what side of the issues you're on, but it will be an adult debate.
LEMON: Both of you got through this without a hair out of place. You didn't mess up your hair, Lanny.
DAVIS: I agree with Connie Mack.
LEMON: Yes. Thank you, Connie. Thank you, Lanny. See you, guys, soon.
MACK: Thank you.
LEMON: Coming up, with all eyes on Donald Trump, can tomorrow's debate attract black voters, minority voters to the GOP. Does the Donald help or does he hurt?
[22:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Make sure you watch. Come on, sit down and watch this next segment because you're going to like this guy. Tomorrow night's GOP debate with Donald Trump is taking center stage. It's sure to attract millions of viewers, beyond the usual political junkies.
Is this an opportunity -- is this an opportunity for the Republican Party to pick off some democratic voters, including minorities. It might be a tough sell even for a guy like Donald Trump.
In 2014, only 11 percent of African-American said they lean republican. It was a little higher among Hispanics but still, only 26 percent said that they lean towards a GOP.
This guy joins me. W. Kamau Bell, our political satirist and host to CNN's upcoming show, "The United Shades of America," welcome to CNN. Are you ready for this?
W. KAMAU BELL, "THE UNITED SHADES OF AMERICA" UPCOMING SHOW HOST: I'm ready for this. Yes, I'm ready.
LEMON: Are you excited about this debate tomorrow night?
BELL: First of all, do you see my face, Don? When they see it, they're going to attract minority voters a kind like this.
LEMON: I wonder what that means. That means, heck, no, hell, no, what does that mean?
BELL: Heck, no, heck, no. Yes, language I can't say on CNN.
LEMON: You can say, hell, no.
BELL: No. Hell, no! No, there's no minority voters. We are -- minorities are only watching this as a way to get out some live angry tweets. That's the only they're watching it. Black Twitter, Latino Twitter, female twitter, it's all going to be get my Twitter fingers ready.
LEMON: OK. So, all right. All right. Let's talk about angry tweets, right? Because Stephen King just today. He said, "How's this for a Trump campaign slogan. If you're white, you're all right. Any other hue, I don't trust you." I think, come on, is that fair?
BELL: Yes. I think white in rich. I think rich is also part of it. I mean, come on, Don, his campaign is already leaked out. There's been race that is being said. There's been anti-women things. You know, Trump's campaign is the campaign of rich white dudes with the floppy hair. I think that's it. You know, if you're a billionaire, vote for trump.
LEMON: But there are people who are there and not necessarily rich. If you look at the people who are at the Town Halls, the people he is greeting, the people in the polls, they are not -- not everybody is rich. And they're saying, hey, I like this guy. He's speaking for me. And there are even minorities who are saying that.
BELL: I think that shows a lack of personality for all the other candidates that's why they like Trump, because Trump he has personality. Like on my side like, I like Alec Baldwin. He says crazy stuff but he's not running for president. I might vote for him just because i like him. You know what I mean?
BELL: Trump has personality. The other candidates have no personality. They're all trying to walk that very fine line of just walking the party line, whereas Trump is like a guy who has a rental car and the insurance. He's just driving it like he doesn't care.
LEMON: All right. So, part of what you're going to be doing here is you're going to go around America, right? And talk to minorities, right? And talk about the different shades of America. So, then, what is...
BELL: There's some white people, too.
LEMON: Well, I said, "United Shades of America," all shades. So, then, what is this -- how then can the Republican Party as you travel around the country, what opportunities do they have to pick up voters who may just vote democrat because they do it?
BELL: I think they have to make it clear that they actually like people other than rich white guys. And I'm not trying to be flamboyant here. They don't -- most of their policies are anti-minorities and women. And I think if you want minorities and women you act because you seem you like them a little bit maybe, maybe a little bit, a tiny bit.
LEMON: If you were moderating tomorrow, what question would you want to ask Donald Trump?
BELL: What question would I want to ask Donald Trump?
BELL: Tell me why I should vote for you. And reminding him I'm a black dude who's not in his income tax bracket. I would ask all of that question.
(CROSSTALK) LEMON: Did you watch -- I think it was not meet the press. It was a
Stephanopoulos show -- the other day -- this week. Donald Trump was on and he said, I don't think President Obama has done -- has been the best president when it comes to the African-American community and he can do better. He can definitely provide jobs. How do you respond to that?
BELL: You know, I mean, Donald Trump criticizing President Obama as not being a good black president. It sort of -- I mean, we can sort of have the discussion about, can Obama have done more for black people? Yes, like a broken club. Donald Trump maybe right on that point. But is Donald Trump going to be a better place for black people? Absolutely, not. It's a ridiculous idea.
LEMON: Yes. Hey, did you happen to see -- let's play this. This is from The View, I want you to watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY OSBOURNE, THE VIEW CO-HOST: If you kick every Latino out of this country, then who is going to be cleaning your toilet, Donald Trump?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, that's not.
OSBOURNE: In the sense that, you know what I mean, they can -- what I'm saying that...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's more jobs than...
OSBOURNE: In a lay they are always important.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But Latinos are not only the only people doing that.
OSBOURNE: No, I didn't mean it like that. Come on, no. I would never mean it like that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, Rosie defended her. The other women on The View defended her saying that it came out wrong. What do you think?
BELL: Yes. It went in wrong and it came out wrong. It was wrong the whole time. You know, there's a fine line I think sometime between racism and dumb. But just because -- and so, I think she's walking the dumb line, but that doesn't mean that the comment wasn't racist. Because you can actually be racist and dumb.
[22:45:03] Because it's America. It's a complicated thing you can have all your things in one nice little ugly package. But unfortunately, for the viewers of The View, that's kind of what they want on The View. I mean, they want those kinds of statements to be made, so tea party just going to have a full-time job with The View. LEMON: Kamau, I think you're going to do very well on this network
because the guys in the room are liking it. And they don't respond to a lot of people. So, everyone say welcome, Kamau. Do you hear that?
BELL: I'm glad they like me because I feel like I was just making you uncomfortable, Don.
LEMON: No. Not at all. It takes a lot to make me uncomfortable. Sometimes, if I don't make myself uncomfortable nobody will. Thank you, sir.
BELL: I promise, Don, I don't want your job. I don't your job, I promise.
LEMON: Thank you. And again, welcome. I appreciate you coming on.
BELL: Thank you.
LEMON: Coming up, according to the Malaysian prime minister, the piece of debris found on Reunion Island is part of flight 370. But what is it, it tell us about the jetliner, how it crashed. That's next.
LEMON: The prime minister of Malaysia has confirmed that the debris found on the coast of Reunion Island is from the wing of Malaysian Airlines Flight 370. But the loved ones of the 239 people on board of the missing are still waiting to hear what the debris can tell us about the crash.
[22:50:06] So, joining me now is David Soucie, CNN's safety analyst and author of "Malaysia Airlines Flight 370". Mary Schiavo, former inspector general of the Department of Transportation. She's now an attorney for victims of transportation accidents, and P.H. Norgeolot, director of Underwater Research Premiere Exhibitions. He led the search for the wreckage of Air France Flight 447.
Thanks all of you for joining us. David Soucie, you first. After 514 days, finally, confirmation. And we might be closer to finding what could have happen to this plane. David, explain your theory here?
DAVID SOUCIE, "MALAYSIAN AIRLINE FLIGHT 370" AUTHOR: Well, there's a couple of them actually, Don. And I think the most prevalent for me is looking at the parts itself. It appears that it was not on the aircraft at the time that it crashed.
So, that gives me some indication that it either came off in a ditching which the water have pushed it if or in flight in some kind of high-speed decent, which is contradictory. Because after getting Twitter-slapped today I realized that the testing that we had done that the ATSP had done and others have done about whether the aircraft would have stalled at a high speed really didn't show that.
It shows that if it is stalled it would just step down and step down. And it never really reaches those super high speed. So, there's a little bit of a rub in any theory that we have. But it is not getting us closer at least narrows it down to couple of things. We know it's not up and rush at somewhere and sitting at hanger, that's for sure.
LEMON: Well, Mary, so then, what does this mean in terms of the other leading theories?
MARY SCHIAVO, FORMER U.S. DOT INSPECTOR GENERAL: Well, I think most of the theories are still on the table. I mean, you know, the report that was allegedly a report from the United States government that leaked that said they thought it was terrorism. Of course, they were party doing investigation. They should have presented that in the investigation.
I think that the mechanic all around board of fire or rapid decompression are still much in play because finding this piece doesn't do anything to dispel that it could have been mechanical or fire or oxygen deprivation of the pilot.
And then, of course, there's still the issue concerning willful actions in the cockpit by someone flying the plane. Maybe the pilot, maybe not. So, I really don't think they've ruled out anything except exactly what David said that it's in the Kazakhstan or Putin has it or someplace like that. It didn't go north that went out.
LEMON: Yes. As you know early on and when this plane went down, you said that I'm a 100 percent sure that this plane exploded into little pieces. So, what does you think that then and what do you think now?
P.H. NARGEOLOT, UNDERWATER RESEARCH PREMIER EXHIBITIONS DIRECTOR: I'm still thinking at times seeing. You know, I hope that the experts may be with these pieces, a unique pieces against is something about what happen in a -- when the plane was flying or when it hit the ocean. We don't know yet. But it seems to me to be small one piece to be sure of what happened.
LEMON: Do you think this is one of the bigger pieces if it did and you still believe that it exploded?
NARGEOLOT: It's a possibility.
NARGEOLOT: It's a possibility. I'm not sure, but it is a possibility.
LEMON: Let me ask you this, you have been to Reunion Island, you said, many times, right.
NARGEOLOT: Yes, many ties.
LEMON: So, why there? What is it? And it's small.
NARGEOLOT: It's small, but, you know, the current is going -- there is two possibility. The current can -- you know, in this area, the current turned under clock, you know, as the opposite. And it can come through the north and after going down or it can cross directly because there is also a current, you know, going and it's a very difficult current because there are a lot of... LEMON: So, it's right in the middle. If we can put up this animation.
I want you to take a look at this animation. It's from Australian science agency. It's a drift model that shows how debris may disperse over the past 16 months. Can we put that up? There we go.
So, this Reunion Island would be kind of be right there in the middle, David. So, if you look at that, right.
SOUCIE: Yes. It is, in fact, if you think back to March or April, the Australian University had released a prediction that parts would start showing up at about this time on Reunion Island. And I'm sorry that I'm screwing up the pronunciation there for the French member that's on there with us. But, and so, these are the places.
So, I would expect, based on that report, because it was so accurate that there will be, over the next two months there may be more and more debris coming up on shore there in Madagascar.
LEMON: So, Mary, if you look at this. I mean, we've frozen it. But most of it would still be out there. It wouldn't have reached Reunion Island yet.
SCHIAVO: Well, most of it would still be out there if it still floating. The problem is, it's the only way for parts of the plane to get to Reunion Island as continue to float. And of course, the flaperon could, because there are spaces inside that part that allow air to be trapped in for it to float.
[22:55:04] But at this point and this far away from the crash, you can hope that things like a closed cargo container, some of the galley items, tennis shoes flow extremely well. Some pieces of luggage that are close and trapped there.
But Many things will have become water logged and will have sunken to the bottom without hope of being floated again. So, the time has really been, you know, has been an enemy on more things floating to the islands.
LEMON: OK. You know, where the families are getting mixed messages because some are saying that it is a very strong presumption and others are saying that it is. I've got to go, Mary, but if you can just tell me quickly, what gives here.
SCHIAVO: Well, I think that the Malaysian were trying to get out ahead of the French. I think the French didn't do the families any favor.
SCHIAVO: They should have just said why it's the strong presumption, why they aren't just going with what Boeing said? I do believe the families are entitled to that.
LEMON: Thank you, guys. We'll be right back.
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