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Donald Trump Takes Aim at Another Rival; The Year of the Outsider; Texas Woman Accuses Sheriff's Deputies of Sexual Assault. Aired 10-11:00p ET

Aired August 13, 2015 - 22:00   ET



[22:00:00] DON LEMON, CNN TONIGHT SHOW HOST: Donald Trump takes aim at another rival. This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon. The mogul to be your next president has spared no one from Hillary Clinton, to Jeb Bush, to Rand Paul. Now, it's Joe Biden's turn.


DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think they match up great. I'm a job producer. I've had a great record. I haven't been involved in plagiarism. I think I would match up very well against Biden.


LEMON: That is what he told conservative radio host Hugh Hewitt. He is here tonight and one of the moderators of the next debate right here on CNN.

Plus, the year of the outsider from Donald Trump to Bernie Sanders. We're going to talk to Dan Rather and Frank Bruni. And also this exclusive story that will shock you. A Texas woman is pulled over by police and allegedly strip searched right in the middle of a gas station parking lot. And you won't believe why.

But I want to begin with the day in Trump. Donald Trump just released a new no holds barred campaign ad targeting President Obama as well as Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton. Take a look at it.


LEMON: Joining me now Dan Rather, host of AXS TV is the big interview, and New York Times columnist, Frank Bruni.

Do you know how nerve racking that is to have you watch me do my -

DAN RATHER, AXS TV HOST: Oh, I would know till you're rocking it all.

LEMON: Hey, let me ask you this, Mr. Rather, have you ever seen anything like this in all of your years of covering politics like this republican? RATHER: I have not. I'm fund of saying I've been to Goat Roping's and

space shots and then covering presidents of campaigns for a long time. I have never seen anything like this. And the fact is, neither has anyone else. You know, it is for better or worse historic time in that no party in the history of the country has ever had this many candidates running for their party's nomination.

LEMON: I know you're not a betting man. But what are the odds if he becomes the nominee?

RATHER: Donald Trump?


RATHER: It's been shortly that I'm frequently wrong as you know about things but I said in the beginning, Trump is going to be -- he run stronger and longer and a lot of people thinking many republicans fear. He definitely tapped into something.

And I know that the other candidates see him as sort of a sun powered perpetual motion all-American (inaudible) machine. But a large section of his party doesn't seem that way. I doubt you see useful betting. If you had to bet the rent money, and I hope you don't, you wouldn't bet that he gets the nomination.


RATHER: But I do hope that he'll go pretty deep into the primary caucus process.

LEMON: Yes. Frank, you know, Donald Trump didn't think that the debate went so well. What did you think about the debate, did anyone stand out to you? Did you think it was fair?

FRANK BRUNI, NEW YORK TIMES OP-ED COLUMNIST: I think a couple people benefited from it. John Kasich benefited from it, for sure. You know, if he got a little more time, Chris Christie might have -- I think Marco Rubio benefited from it.

But I don't think anyone can benefit that much when there are 10 people on stage. You know, there is all this controversy that six people are being relegated or seven people to a different stage. Even with 10, no one could really make that much of an impression.

I do think that Trump did himself some harm. It may be able a little bit of harm. It may not be showing up in the big way in the polls yet. But I think bit by bit, day by day, week by week, you are going to see him fade. He really are.

LEMON: One of my mentors used to tell me to bloom where you're planted. And I think Carly Fiorina did that, even though she was in the so-called second tier debate or what have you, but she said, I'm going to be here and I'm going to make this work. She made it work for her.

BRUNI: She's a fiercely eloquent woman. I remember years ago, I did a profiling to her when she was running against Boxer for the Times Magazine. I spent a whole week with her. And I remember the first speech I went to. I thought, well, I had no idea she was this good of a communicator. She was this fiercely eloquent.

She's got other problems and right now, she's having her moment. Whether that moment will last, big, big question. We shouldn't make too much -- Dan and I were talking about this beforehand. Any 24-hour period feels significant, but we shouldn't make too much of it.

RATHER: Well, Dr. Carson also helped himself.


BRUNI: Absolutely.

RATHER: I'm not saying enough to go all the way but he certainly helped himself.

LEMON: Yes. And he showed humor. He said, I was thinking that. I wasn't going to get, you know, another chance to speak. And he...

RATHER: But he also said on when he went up to stage he's actually separated a Siamese twins.


RATHER: Maybe in the best line of it of the debate.

LEMON: Yes. We're going to have him on with us soon and I can't wait to have a very respected man. But, Mr. Rather, I want to ask you about this about Jeb Bush. He has a lot of money behind him. But he's really having a hard time when he comes to connecting what some of the voters especially in the polls.

He is tied for sixth place in CNN's Iowa poll, second place behind Trump in the latest New Hampshire's State poll. Is he in trouble?

RATHER: I think it's too early to say he's in trouble. But he should be worried because he comes off all too often as at least slightly bored or perhaps as a man whose shoes hurt him. And speaking of being of time, a strong communicator. I don't mean to spare him at all. He's a former governor...

[22:05:02] BRUNI: Jeb Bush is unfortunately shocked candidate, right?

LEMON: Listen. He has done, in many people's estimation, a poor job of answering questions, 1979, this was Ted Kennedy when you asked him why he wanted to be president, right?

BRUNI: Actually Roger Mudd.

LEMON: Mr. Roger Mudd asked it. And then he fumbled the answer. Did that remind you of that?

RATHER: Very much so. And I think it's right on point. When Ted Kennedy was going to run against the incumbent President Jimmy Carter, he sat down for a lengthy CBS News interview with Roger Mudd. When Roger asked him, you know, why did you want to be president, it was hum, hum, hum, he didn't have an answer.

Now, rightly or wrongly, fairly or unfairly, I think that Governor Bush strikes a lot of people, including a lot of people who were inclined to like him as in that mode, who are saying, well, why is he here.

Also, when he speaks, whether it's true or not, it appears to be can same-old, same-old, sort of plain vanilla kind of talk and he doesn't crack through. Whereas with Trump, like him or don't like him, he comes off with galore along the loop patience with all of these candidates standing up there and that's a big difference.

LEMON: We miss those 'Ratherisms.' But is he correct in that it's hard to even to -- let me just -- is he saying nicely that Jeb Bush is just deadly doll up there?

BRUNI: People are not seeing in Jeb Bush -- in Jeb Bush the passion that I think they want to see in a candidate. It's what they saw in Carly Fiorina in that pre-debate debate. It's what they see in Trump for better or worse, they see fire. They see passion. Jeb Bush is going to have to figure out how to communicate that if he wants to get the nomination.

LEMON: I want to get this in order. But I want to talk you about the Iowa state fair. CNN's Iowa poll has Trump leading. But in 2012, it was Rick Santorum leading who won. Before that is was Mike Huckabee, is Iowa a good bellwether you think for whoever is going to eventually win this race?

BRUNI: No. I think it's increasingly it's not a good bellwether. I think it's becoming it's becoming a less good bellwether all the time. I think we are all in the media page and much attention to it because it's convenient and easy.

RATHER: I agree. In one point about where Jeb Bush stands at the moment, he has the most money of any candidate and Trump is not a special case for the moment. And the good book says the race is not always to the swift nor the battle to the strong.

But as reporters who have been cynical we say that is the way to bet it. And Jeb Bush is playing a long game. He has the money to do it. He has the unlimited resources. He has an extensive staff and he's active in every state in the country. So, it's too early to count him out.

LEMON: Let's turn to the democrat. Now, Frank, I want to ask you about Hillary Clinton about turning her private server over to the FBI issue is dogging her on the campaign trail. Is this big trouble for her politically?

BRUNI: She's got a very real and enduring problem and this week is a great example. So, she went out there and she gave a very thoughtful policy speech. College debt, how to relieve it, what the government should do. A lot of particulars. A lot of bells and whistles. No one talked about it. All anybody could still talk about was the e-mail server. Until this

gets behind her, no one is going to hear anything else. And the problem now is she's not in control of this narrative. There is an investigation going on. She can't just make a speech, issue a few press releases and hope to move on. Events are out of her control right now.

LEMON: There's also the Bernie Sanders department who got her, the Bernie Sanders factor. He's drawing really huge crowds. He's now ahead of her in the New Hampshire State poll. I mean, and he's -- like I said, big crowds. He's got...

BRUNI: He's not going to get the nomination, but he makes her look weak.


RATHER: Well, any candidate running for any office who'd rather walk through a border fire -- fire gasoline suit. They're not being able to control the narrative. And this is a very important point to make. That Hillary is no longer in charge of the narrative. And she has out there, it's in the distance, but you have vice president Biden, up and throwing in the bull pen. John Kerry is loosening up. And now, just tonight, I saw for the first time that I've been around for a few days, numbers that Al Gore might be thinking about getting into the race.

LEMON: I was just -- you just took my question. Al Gore and there's Joe Biden.

RATHER: Yes. Well, way too early to count Hillary out. Speaking of long game, she has finances, she has organizations, she is playing a long game. But too early to say that she's in deep trouble. But if you think there has to be concern in the Clinton camp. Not being able to control his narrative.

LEMON: And as you said, the party -- is this a sign, Frank, the party is not solid on her, if Al Gore is considering and Joe Biden is considering as well?

BRUNI: I don't think the party is asking themselves are we solid on her. I think they're asking themselves, are going to be burned if we put too many chips on her. And they're asking themselves that more and more every week. But they don't have a great alternative yet.

LEMON: What do you guys looking forward to the debate on the 16th? We saw the last debate and how that went, what do you looking for to first you, Mr. Rather.

RATHER: Well, might the same thing I was look -- I was looking for in the first debate that is who distinguishes themselves. And talked to Frank, I think Marco Rubio will help himself. Dr. Carson will help himself, you know, who helps himself.

The secondly, is there anybody to take Trump on. Right now, most of the rest of the party of the other candidates is saying he's going to -- he take position, he's going to burn himself out.

[22:10:02] Going to flame out at some point. Which he may indeed do, but now they all grows a little later. So, did anybody take Trump on? The third thing looking for is a bit more substance.

I'm not being critical. The talks have been debated all I thought they pulled it off very good. They got off rather quickly. But how tough is the questions? How good are the good questions and for us more important, how good all the follow up questions.

LEMON: Come on. You're fashioned that. I thought you're going to say, the third one I can't remember. You guys are talking about, right?

RATHER: Listen, at my age and state, that's always a threat.

LEMON: Thank you. Always a pleasure to have you, gentlemen. Thank you so much.

RATHER: Thank you.

LEMON: Good to see you.

BRUNI: Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you very much. Coming up, expect fireworks from Donald Trump at the next GOP debate right here on CNN. When we come right back, I'm going to ask one of the moderators of that debate. Conservative radio host Hugh Hewitt, what he thinks of Trump.

Plus, a shocking story of law and disorder. My exclusive interview with a Texas woman who says deputies strip searched her in the middle of a gas station parking lot. And wait until you hear why.


LEMON: We're back with something we do here every day, the day in Trump.

Donald Trump's surge in the polls is proof that Americans love to watch him. So, the next GOP debate right here on CNN, September 16th, is the most hotly anticipated political debate of the year.

[22:15:00] Joining me now, one of the moderators of that debate. No, not Jake Tapper. His name is Hugh Hewitt of The Hugh Hewitt Show, the radio show and the author of "The Queen, the Epic ambition of Hillary Clinton and the coming of the second Clinton era." It is such a pleasure to have you here this evening. How are you, sir?

HUGH HEWITT, THE HUGH HEWITT SHOW HOST: I'm great, Don. Thanks for having me. Good to be here.

LEMON: Yes, sir. And you're going to be co-hosting that upcoming debate with Jake Tapper. Donald Trump came out swinging at the host after the first one, are you worried?

HEWITT: No, I'm not. First of all, I'm not moderating. Jake is the moderator. I just ask the questions. And I tell everyone that. I had lunch with Jake on Sunday to go a little over early debate prep. And he's got to control the time of everyone. But I'm looking forward to it.

I've had seven of the republican candidates on my radio show just this week. Tomorrow I think Governor Bush is joining me, maybe Senator Cruz. For the nine in a week I've done 50 interviews with them over the last four months. So, I'm very comfortable with a very deep bench of serious people.

And yesterday's interview with Donald Trump was terrific. He is the best interview in the business. We're talking off air. He's the biggest get in television right now and in radio. So, I think the audience is going to be huge on September 20 -- 16th.

And I think what the last debate proved is that the intensity of interest in this race on the republican side is enormous. So, I expect our audience to actually grow. And I'm glad to be the first conservative an openly conservative republican partisan to sit down and ask questions from the perspective of the republican primary voter about what they can do to win.

LEMON: OK. So, let me ask you. You said you've been talking to them on your radio show asking them questions. Are you trying out questions? Do you want to share anything with us?

HEWITT: Oh, sure. I am trying that questions. I've asked most of them about the Ohio class submarine and size of the United States Navy. I've asked all of them about whether or not to get rid of the filibuster in the Senate and they divide on that, by the way.

Most of the governors want to get rid of it. All of the senators want to keep it. I asked them about the drug laws and whether or not they'll use federal legal authority to crush the marijuana legalization in Colorado and Washington State.

Chris Christie says, yes. Ted Cruz and Rick Perry say, no. They're a lot of big division. But I think the thing that matters most to my audience. I talked about it with Scott Walker today and with Marco Rubio yesterday and Mr. Donald Trump yesterday.


HEWITT: Who will go after Hillary Clinton with a hammer? Who will take it to the other side? Especially on the server. I think issues of criminality have now risen in the latest round of revelations. And I'm looking for republicans who will get in there and fight. And I heard a lot of that out of a lot of people this week. And I expect to hear more of it on September 16th.

LEMON: OK. So, Hugh, you questioned Donald Trump his temperament in a couple of interviews and he got a little upset with you. Here - this is a clip from your show on yesterday. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) HEWITT: You said the republicans have been treating you fairly. First

of all, are you counting on me treating you fairly? Because I'm going to treat you fairly at...


TRUMP: Well, I was until I saw this article. I actually was. But I think you'll treat me fairly. I look at you you're professional. I was a little surprised. And you did talk about temperament. And again, you know, I was criticized on the same day by Bush and by Hillary Clinton and they used the same word.

They say, we don't like his tone because his tone is a little aggressive, we don't need -- well, I don't like their tone because they don't have the energy. They don't have that push or that drive. And that's what we need.

You know, we're blind the 8 ball. It's not like we're riding high and it's the opposite way. If the opposite way we can look it. But we're behind the 8 ball, so you need a strong tone.


LEMON: OK. So, Hugh, I'm going to ask you again, does he have the right temperament or tone to be president?

HEWITT: I think the right question is does he have the temperament and tone to win. I wish I had answered the question on NBC with he would be unique. He would be the first president elected from private business in the modern era with no political experience.

As with Carly Fiorina, as with Ben Carson. He would be certainly the most Burlington first celebrity president we've ever had. But so unique is not necessarily bad and certainly, we can tell from the audience. But I like the fact that he does trust me.

I think it's very important that the republican primary voter and all the audience and all the candidates know, I'm a straight shooter. Jake Tapper is a straight shooter. Same questions for everyone. Tough, hard-hitting questions. And I also asked Donald Trump on that, are you afraid of that?

He said, of course not. Ask me anything. And he is actually fearless. He will answer any question you ask him.

LEMON: He does.

HEWITT: You might not get back what you want, but you'll definitely get an answer back. And I think that is what's going to distinguish him and the other candidates are learning. Answer all the questions specificity energy. Donald Trump talked a lot about energy.

Sutherland Alexander Hamilton, by the way, another great New Yorker, talked about energy in the executive and -- yes?

LEMON: But you didn't answer -- you didn't answer your own question. But I asked you, does he have a right to be president. You said does he have the right temperament to win? Does he, do you think he does?

HEWITT: Well, if you win, then you, by definition, got the right temperament. I don't think President Obama...

LEMON: Well, I mean, to win the nomination is what I was talking about, to get the nomination.

[22:19:57] HEWITT: Yes. I don't think President Obama has the right temperament to be president. I know Hillary Clinton doesn't have the right temperament to be president. She is secretive. She's now involved in cover-up it's probably criminal in its nature.

However, when you win, you are by definition qualified by temperament. He would be unique. But so would, I think if you look at this very uniquely Rubio will be a unique temperament as well. He will be the first Latino-American president if he wins the nomination and wins the presidency.

Ted Cruz would be the same way. Ted Cruz is unique. No one has ever argued nine in one, nine Supreme Court arguments. So, all of them are unique. We've got the best bench. And they've got Hillary Clinton under a criminal investigation of the FBI right now. No matter what Alan Dershowitz told you last night.

You've got Joe Biden who is, at best, an unpredictable bag of surprises. Bernie Sanders who is a socialist. And Al Gore and John Kerry who are re-threats. Honestly, I'd rather have the republican field right now.

LEMON: All right. Hugh Hewitt. Always interesting. You're almost as interesting in this interview as Donald Trump. But, thank you. Almost.

HEWITT: No one is as interesting as Donald Trump. Thank you, Hugh. We look forward to seeing you on September 16th. OK.

HEWITT: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: All right. So, can you imagine being pulled over by a police officer and then strip searched in the gas station parking lot. It happened to a young woman in Texas. She describes her shocking ordeal, listen.


CHARNESIA CORLEY, BLACK WOMAN PUBLICLY SEARCHED NUDE: She let me run to the side of my car and she goes in, you know, pull your pants down. Inside I though, I tell him like, pull my pants down? I don't have any underwear on it. And she said, well, that doesn't matter.


LEMON: This is an absolutely shocking story. A young Texas woman accused the sheriff's deputies of sexual assault after being pulled over for allegedly running a stop sign. Charnesia Corley says, deputies' strip searched her right in the middle of a gas station parking lot while looking for marijuana. Charnesia Corley joins me now in exclusive interview along with her

attorney, Samuel Cammack. Thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate you coming out. I know it must be tough to talk about. How are you doing, Charnesia?

CORLEY: I'm fine, how are you?

LEMON: So, I hate to have you relive this, I'm doing well. But I want you to run through what happened. You're out running errands for your mom and you got pulled over by -- for running a stop sign. The officer said, he smell marijuana and proceed to search your car. Then what happened?

Well, after he comes back to the car, he tells me, you know, I smell marijuana. So, I want to search the car. He puts me in handcuffs and he puts me in the back of his car. He searches my car, I would say about 15 to 20 times. He comes back and he tells me, well, I don't believe you don't have anything on you.

So, I'm going to call a female officer on here to search you. So, you know, we waited about an hour, an hour and a half for the female officer to arrive. Once she arrived, her and the male officer that pulled me over, they exchanged words and they came and they opened the door and let me out.

He took me around to the side of my car and she tells me, you know, pull your pants down. I tell them like, you know, pull my pants down? I don't have any underwear on. And she said, well, that doesn't matter. So, you know, I kind of adjust there at the handcuffs because I couldn't move.

My hands are already handcuffed behind me, you know. So, she pulls my pants down and then she tells me to bend over. So, you know, I kind of hesitated because I'm like, bend over? You know, and I just -- I bent over. And she proceeded to stick her fingers in me.

And I popped up immediately and I told her no, what are you doing? You can't do that to me. Then she tells me, you know, I can do what I want to do because it's a narcotics search. So,

LEMON: And this is right there on the side of the road in the parking lot?

CORLEY: It's right there in the parking lot.

LEMON: Where people were...

CORLEY: Where people are passing by.

LEMON: Oh, my, gosh. Do they find any marijuana or anything? It doesn't matter because your rights are being violated by then doing that out in public anyway. But what were they searching for? Why did they choose to search you right there?

CORLEY: I have no idea. You know.

LEMON: And they never found anything, right?

CORLEY: No. I don't know if they were discriminating against me or what, but it was embarrassing. Degrading. I felt low. I felt helpless. Like I couldn't do anything, you know.

LEMON: You said it felt like you were sexually assaulted.

CORLEY: Female officer...


LEMON: You felt like you were sexually assaulted.

CORLEY: Yes. Yes, of course. I felt like they raped me. You know? If you're a young lady in my situation, handcuffed, on the ground, two women on top of you, one of them sticking their fingers in you while they're both holding your legs apart, how would you feel, you know? I think any woman in my situation would feel helpless.

LEMON: According to one of the officers, one of the reports from the officers, you said that you could -- they could strip search you if they needed to, right? Did you give them consent? Did you tell them that they could search you if they needed to?


LEMON: You never gave consent.


LEMON: What was supposed to happen, Samuel? Did they have the right to do that to her in public right there in front of the world to see?

SAMUEL CAMMACK III, CHARNESIA CORLEY'S ATTORNEY: No, it's undeniable that the search was not constitutional. And the truth to the matter is, is that if Ms. Corley would have consent it, you have to ask yourself the question why they arrested her for resisting search and for resisting arrest.

And so, she did not consent. Today, a video was released to us from the district attorney's office. In this video contains the disturbing reality that Ms. Corley went through. And so, of course, we're not prepared to release this video at this time. But it definitely corroborates this horrible event that my client went through.

LEMON: And you're also telling me, the new developments is that -- one of them is that all the charges have been dropped. And they've now released -- that's correct, right? All the charges have been dropped.

CAMMACK: That's correct.


CAMMACK: The district attorney's office dismissed the charges.

[22:29:59] LEMON: OK. And on that video, you have watched this video. You have seen it. Tell me what's on it?

CAMMACK: Yes, I personally seen the video. And the allegations that Ms. Corley makes against these deputies is absolutely true. And it's -- in all of my years of practice, it's probably one of the most disturbing videos that I've witnessed.

So, we did file a complaint against these officers today with the Internal Affairs Division of the Harris County, Sheriff's Office. And I would assume that they're opening the investigation today and we'll look into this into this matter.

But it really is the constitutionality of the search that's important. This type of search, it was not a strip search. Ms. Corley was actually had her clothes removed from her. She was naked in this parking lot while these officers had put their hands inside of her. So, it wasn't a strip search. It was a manual cavity search, which is has been the unconstitutional...


LEMON: Here's the thing. Let me -- let me jump in here because they're saying that they had the right to do it. And you're saying constitutionally, they did not have a right to do it. Is there a bigger problem there for with officers thinking that they can strip search someone or search someone on the side of the road?

CAMMACK: I mean, that's a great point, Don. This is America. It's not some third world, uncivilized country. And so, these officers, if they believe that they could have searched her in the manner that they did, then they have been trained improperly.

As a matter of fact, a spokesperson when this was originally reported through the media, a spokesperson with her county sheriff's department said that these deputies were following their rules and procedures.

So, if that's how they're training these officers they need to go back to their training classes and training manuals and read the part about our Constitution.

LEMON: I want to ask you, Charnesia, did they threaten you? And if so, why do you think this happened?

CHARNESIA CORLEY, BLACK WOMAN PUBLICLY SEARCHED NUDE: Well, like I said, I just think that they were discriminating against me, you know, thinking the type of area I was in, the kind of car I drive. I don't know what it's going to do.

But I'm guessing most likely discrimination, you know. At one point, the female officer had arrived on the scene first. She tells me she's like, you know, open your legs. And I say, I'm like, and she says like, if you don't open your legs, I'm going to break them. That's why I'm like, you can't break my legs, that's against my life. And she didn't stop. Then no point, you know, I don't even think she feel bad about it.

LEMON: The initial officer, that the male -- the male officer who stopped you was a white man, right? And what about the other officers, the female officers who showed up?

CORLEY: The other -- the first female that showed up she was African- American and she was late. The second female officer that showed up, she was white.

LEMON: And you still think that it was discrimination, correct?

CORLEY: Yes, from the very beginning. I still believe it was discrimination.

CAMMACK: You know what, Don, I guess, my point on that is that I'm not sure that it would have matter what color that Charnesia whether she was green or yellow because the sheriff's department is saying that these officers followed protocol and policy.

And so, I would be hard press to think that they would do to my wife or my or daughter. You know, where you're not African-American, but I'm not sure I'd go as far as to it would be discriminatory, but if it is discriminatory to us as human beings, as to us citizens.

So, it's more about police conduct, I think, than it is race. That's what people need to look at is the conduct to some of these officers. Because I believe that the only people that aren't watching the news in the media about what's going on in our country with regards to police conduct are some of the police themselves.

LEMON: Yes. And we did get the statement and we'll put the statement. Now this statement is from the Harris County Sheriff's Office and in part it says, "Until the completion of an ongoing internal affairs investigation is pending the status of the civil litigation, the Harris County is unable to publicly comment on any alleged incident," and then, it goes on with the rest of the statement.

CAMMACK: They're saying that now.


CAMMACK: They're saying that now, Don, but they didn't say it in the beginning.


CAMMACK: When this first came out in the news, their spokesperson came out and said that their police were following police protocol. The protocol set forth by Harris County Sheriff's Department. But now, since I've looked into it further they're retreating from that statement.


CAMMACK: They were basically implied that these officers were trained to behave in this matter whenever they come in contact with the citizen that they want to -- that they want to search.

[22:35:00] LEMON: Charnesia and Samuel, thank you so much. Charnesia, take care of yourself. We'll continue to follow this story. CAMMACK: Thank you.

CORLEY: Thank you.

LEMON: Up next, reaction to the shocking story and what it says about race and the police in America. I'm going to talk about it with two prominent African-American.


LEMON: The story we just heard is part of the Black Lives Matter conversation. But what about black votes, how will they matter?

Joining me now is Cornel West, author and professor of philosophy and Christian practice at Union Theological Seminary. And Larry Elder, host of The Larry Elder Show and the author of "Dear Father, Dear Son."

Gentlemen, welcome. We're going to talk about the race to the White House. But first, I want to get your reaction to the woman that I just spoke with attorney Corley, who -- she had a cavity search, cavity search in a busy parking lot because officers suspect that she had marijuana on her. She says that she was essentially raped. She says it is discrimination. Cornel West, you first.

CORNEL WEST, UNION THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY PROFESSOR: Well, one, I think we just want my dear sister Corley didn't know that many of us in this country, we care for her.

[22:40:04] That's why we're fighting in Ferguson, we're fighting in New York, we're fighting in Oakland, against arbitrary police power trying to bring an end to this war against drugs which is very much a war against people of color, disproportionately poor.

And this is arbitrary police is not confined to the black community, but it tends to be disproportionately targeting the black community. And there has to be some police accountability.

LEMON: Mr. Elder.

LARRY ELDER, THE LARRY ELDER SHOW HOST: Well, certainly, from what you've shown us, it appears to be excessive. I still don't know why she was stopped in the first place, how they got closed enough to smell the marijuana.

But certainly, it appears that based upon what you've now told us, that it appears to be excessive. But what I don't agree with is that this is some sort of microcosm of how police are treating black people.

The last 30 years, the percentage of blacks being shot by police is down 75 percent, while the percentage of whites being shot by the police has flat lined. And the Department of Justice ordered the National Institutes of Justice to do a study called traffic stops and rape -- and race. It turns out 75 percent of the black motorists who were stopped I

believe they were stopped for legitimate reasons. And no matter what their offense is, whether it's speeding or driving with a kid with a child safety belt or safety belt, it turns out blacks were more likely to violate these traffic laws than anybody else.

So, there's a reason why it does a proportion number of blacks are being stopped and being questioned. The question is we can't have a legitimate discussion about police conduct without having legitimate discussion about behavior. And that's what we're talking about here.

LEMON: But, Larry, doesn't her story, though, -- I mean, this woman is a perfect example, though, of why -- of why some African-Americans believe that police discriminate against them in very violent and even deadly ways. You can't deny that, even from this one story.

ELDER: There are 330 million people living in this country. Every day, you can find some story that might be disturbing. The question is on a day-to-day basis are black people harassed, pulled over by the police for no reason.

And it's not true. In 1997, you guys, CNN and Time Magazine did a poll of black teenagers and asked them whether or not a racism was a part of their daily lives, 89 percent said it wasn't part of our daily lives. In fact, more white people than black teens is now raising with a problem.


LEMON: That was 1997, and there's a -- you're going to see soon.

: WEST: Yes, but Brother Larry...

LEMON: There's a new poll coming out that shows something very different. Go ahead, Cornel West.

WEST: I just want to know which world brother Larry is living in. I can start with my own life.

ELDER: South central, brother. South Central.

WEST: I can start with the lives of my friends. I can start with the lives of others who, not only report, but could testify to the degree to which arbitrary police power in black America is not just intense.

The government doesn't even keep figures on how many black people get shot and other people get shot. So, when you're trying out these statistics as if somehow we ought to down play the state of emergency in poor American, especially poor black America when it comes to arbitrary police power. It becomes just a way of rationalizing...

ELDER: Professor.

WEST: ... the status quo. I just -- that I'm not convinced, my brother.

LEMON: OK. Listen. Listen, we have plenty of time but I need to move this along. I want to talk -- I want to talk about politics now.

WEST: All right.

LEMON: Cornel West. Race and policing becoming bigger and bigger issue in the elections. The Black Lives Matter movement hitting the trail first with Martin O'Malley, and then Bernie Sanders, and then last night, interrupting a Jeb Bush event. Take a listen to this one.




LEMON: Does this help or hurt the cause when you're screaming at someone who's on your side? Cornel.

WEST: Well, I think it certainly makes the point. I think that, as I said, we're at a point of emergency really and we have to come up with some ways of ensuring that candidates no matter what color and no matter what party will acts in ambitious like of white supremacy's still operating.

But, how it connects to poverty. How it connects to Wall Street domination of government. How it connects to inadequate education. How it connects to decrepit schooling, and so forth.

So, yes, there's a road for politics and disruption. But in the end, we're going to have to engage and fight back and then in the end we're going to have to try to highlight some of the candidates who are talking about Wall Street domination, wealth inequality and understanding the centrality of the struggle against white supremacy.

LEMON: I want to get Larry here. Because, Larry Elder, Larry Wilmore talked about this the last time about the Black Lives Matter message on his show. Take a look.

ELDER: All right.

LEMON: OK. We don't have it. But basically, what he said is, I agree that Black Lives Matter. But he said also if you're being 100 percent black, manners matter, as well. Here it is. Take a look.


LARRY WILMORE, COMEDIAN: I agree that Black Lives Matter, but black manners matter as well. Right? If we keep it in a hundred. If we're keeping in a hundred. And also keep it in a hundred based on the demographics. If Bernie said his rallies were in Jerry's ice cream flavor, it will be Nilla, please.


[22:45:11] LEMON: All right. Listen, I mean, do the Black Lives Matter, does a movement wrist becoming like cold pink where you disrupts so much that people will stop paying attention to you? ELDER: Don, I agree with Cornel West. There is a state of emergency.

And the state of emergency is the fact that over 6,000 black people were killed; mostly by other black other people last year.

They weren't killed by racist cops. That's what the emergency is. And because of the breakdown of the family, there's a direct relationship between that and crime and bad schools and going to prison. And that's what we ought to be talking about.

Instead, we're reacting as if racism against black people by cops is the number one problem in the county. It is not. It is the breakdown of the family, the breakdown of the family and, by the way, the breakdown of the family.

LEMON: Standby, gentlemen. We're going to continue...

WEST: But, no.

LEMON: ... Cornel West, we're going to talk about that more right after this break. We're going to talk about it more because Dr. Ben Carson argues that when anyone in the black community tries to discuss what Mr. Elder talking -- talks about, the root causes of the problems facing African-Americans that they branded as Uncle Tom, is he right? We're going to talk about that next.


LEMON: Black Lives Matter activists are making their voices heard on the campaign trail. But some say they're missing the root of the problem.

Back with me now, Cornel West and Larry Elder. Gentlemen, I want to get both of you and I have a lot of points that we -- questions I want to get into. If you could be brief, I'd really appreciate that. So, first, Cornel. Dr. Ben Carson, says that Black Lives Matter group is creating strife and pointing fingers. He was in Harlem yesterday. Take a listen to what he said.


BEN CARSON, U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Of course black lives matter. But what I feel is that instead of people pointing fingers at each other and just creating strife, what we need to be talking about is how do we solve the problem in the black community of murder, essentially.

You know, for a young black male in inner city, homicide is the most likely cause of death. Also recognizing that, you know, 73 percent of black babies born out of wedlock, that woman's education stops generally with that first baby.

And that baby is at least four times as likely to grow up in poverty. And it's likely to end up in the penal system or the welfare system. That is destructive to the community.

But the P.C., police, and the progressive community have gotten people to believe that that's OK. You're not supposed to talk about that. If anybody talks about that, they're an Uncle Tom and they're against you. When, in fact, those are the very people that are trying to save the situation.


LEMON: He is saying, Cornel, in essence what Larry Elder just said. Is he right?

WEST: No. Both of my deeply conservative brothers are wrong. That if we had a president, Congress and fellow citizens who make fighting poverty and fighting arbitrary police power apriori in a way in which you make a deal with Iran, take that priority or trade policy that generates more corporate profits at the expense of workers, we've got more priorities.

Poverty sits at the center of it. One percent of the population in America own 42 percent of the wealth, just 30 is going to the wealth. There's been a massive transfer of wealth from poor and working people to the well-to-do. That's redistribution of wealth upward.

We need to generate a situation in which poor children, no matter how they get here in the world, have a fair chance. In America, we don't. We've got a failed system right now.

LEMON: OK. Here's what you tweeted, Larry. And I think it was today or yesterday. You said, black lives a matter, not sure exactly what you mean. You said, "There are three primary problems. Break down of the family." Two -- that's one. "Break down of the family. Two, break down of the family, three, break down in the family." Doesn't that ignore those some of the pretty significant other factors like structural in the store of racism.

ELDER: Well, forget about conservatives like Dr. Carson or Larry Elder. President Obama said, a kid growing up without a father is five times more likely to be poor, nine times more likely to drop out of school, and 20 times more likely to end up in jail.

Now, Cornel West did not refute what Dr. Carson said, 72 percent of black kids today are born outside of wedlock. If it is true that you are 30 times more likely to go to jail, that's what we ought to be talking about.

We ought to be talking about why the family have broken down. Even during slavery. A slave was more likely to be born and raised under one roof with biological mother and biological father than today. The welfare state has done to black family what slavery and what Jim Crow could not do. And people like Cornel West are not talking about that.

LEMON: OK. So, listen. I want to ask you guys about...

WEST: No, that's not true. That's not true. I'm concerned about the black family, too. I come from a stone black family and my black church, my brother. But I don't get a twist. I start with an acknowledgment that there has to be jobs in place, there have to be neighborhoods that are livable. You have to have some control of the flow of drugs and guns in those

communities and then schools of quality in order for families to stay together.

ELDER: May I respond?


WEST: Charles Murray makes a report on the other side of town. You got 35 citizen...

LEMON: So, who is...

ELDER: May I respond to that?

LEMON: ... so, who is the best -- you can respond after this. You can respond after this. Because I want to put -- we're going to talk about what's happening with the presidential race. So, who is best to tackle that? Here is what Ben Carson said about people who -- especially just taking -- just voting democrat -- voting for the democrats. Listen.


CARSON: Whether I get the votes or not, I want people to start listening to what I'm saying. And under staying -- understanding that, you know, there is a way to go that will lead to upward mobility as opposed to dependency. And let's talk about that way and let's not be satisfied to be padded on the head and kept like a pet.


LEMON: He's talking about democrats patting black people on the head, kept like a pet not really doing anything for them. Go ahead, Larry.

[22:54:54] ELDER: You know, Don, I had Cornel West and his colleague, Tavis Smiley, on my radio show a few years. And I informed them that under Ronald Reagan, like him or not, black adult unemployment fill faster than did white adult unemployment. Black teenage unemployment is still faster than did white teenage unemployment.


LEMON: We have 20 seconds left, go ahead.

ELDER: Hispanic unemployment fills faster and they both said that I was wrong. They would have the stats on my desk on Monday. That was several years ago, I'm still waiting. Lowering taxes on gap creators continuing deregulation...


WEST: No, no. Our point was, brother, black people were still catching held under Reagan.


WEST: It's not a matter of just incremental X or Y.

ELDER: What about, professor -- professor, please.

LEMON: So, who is best -- so, who is best -- answer this, who is best do you think for the African-American vote? Black votes matter, who's in this contest the best?

ELDER: May -- may I go?

LEMON: Yes, go ahead.

ELDER: Don, the answer -- just wait, please.

LEMON: Yes, quickly I've got 10 seconds left, please.

ELDER: You had net worth has cratered under this president.

LEMON: That's not an answer. Who is the best person?

WEST: That's not an answer.

ELDER: Black income...

WEST: The people who are running, brother, Larry.



ELDER: Anybody -- anybody that would allow vouchers, anybody that allow vouchers...


LEMON: You're not answering. Go ahead, Cornel.

ELDER: ... is used to be parents and take their kids under that government schools.

WEST: There's no doubt in the race right now brother Bernie Sanders talking about Wall Street domination...


LEMON: That is a direct answer.

WEST: ... trying to get investment in working people and poor people who's the best candidate.

ELDER: OK. I'll answer.

WEST: There's no doubt about that. We just hear his press on.

LEMON: Go ahead.

ELDER: Anyone other Hillary or Bernie or O'Malley would be better for black people because all republicans...


LEMON: Thank you very much.

ELDER: ... would allow any parents they have...

LEMON: I appreciate it. I've got to go. Thanks for watching everybody. AC360 starts right after a quick break.

WEST: All right.