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AT THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA

Bush Falls in Polls, Rips into Obama, Clinton; Survivor, 19, Pull from Rubble in China; ISIS Suspected of Using Chemical Weapons in Iraq; Police Union: Officers Hesitant to Use Guns. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired August 14, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:10] CARL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: We live in a great country, don't we?

Thank you for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello.

AT THIS HOUR with Berman and Bolduan starts now.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Jeb Bush goes to the center of the political universe right now, the same place where he's got work to do.

This, as rumor surfaces, Al Gore may consider a run.

The frantic search for survivors. A firefighter pulled alive from the rubble as fires still burn after this massive exPLOsion kills dozens and officials search for what caused the blast. We'll take you there.

A police officer pistol whipped, knocked out cold with his own gun. The union there says he hesitated because he didn't want to be the next officer to lose his job. Are police holding back?

Hello. I'm Kate Bolduan. John Berman is off today.

Jeb Bush making his pitch to voters in Iowa, at the center of the political universe for the next several days, the Iowa state fair, where butter is sculpted, Oreos are fried and candidates are grilled. Bush stepped up to the soap box moments ago and ripped into the Obama administration and Hillary Clinton on their approach to taking on ISIS. In the latest CNN poll, Bush dropped from the top five, sitting in the middle of the Republican pack among GOP caucus goers.

Let's discuss this and much more. Let's bring in David Chalian, in Des Moines, at the state fair.

David, it's great to see you.

Bush just wrapped up one of those must dos for any candidate visiting the fair making his pitch on the soap box. Tell us what more he said.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Jeb was giving a red-meat speech here. He was throwing out every line from his stump that gets the crowd excited. Going after Barack Obama's leadership, saying I'm tired of this dog ate my homework excuses, run away spending with the government and, of course, the hacking of the office of personnel management records that's happened and the fact he says China has more access to these records than we do. It's an onslaught of taking down the Obama administration. And on foreign policy, he said he will put together a strategy for ISIS.

BOLDUAN: Big re-meat speech on that soap box.

David, stick around with me. We have a lot more to discuss.

Let's bring in Lanhee Chen. He was Mitt Romney's policy director for the 2012 campaign. He's now a Hoover Institution research fellow. And CNN political commentator, Paul Begala, who needs no introduction, also a senior advisor to Priority USA, a super PAC, supports Democrats and Hillary Clinton.

Great to see you guys.

Paul, let me start with you.

David laid out what Bush was saying on the soap box. The good news we should say, maybe the best news is two-thirds of Iowa caucus goers are still undecided. He's got time and people to work with it. How important is it for Bush to get out there and really connect with the voters right now.

PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR & SENIOR ADVISOR, PRIORITY USA SUPER PAC: I think it's critically important. One of the big surprises of this election cycle is how Jeb Bush has underperformed. I thought he'd win. He has really performed poorly. He was standing next to Donald Trump, who is white hot, and Jeb was just cold. For his sake, I hope he's right that Jeb is giving him some red meat. He's been spooning out tofu to the Republican base. He's a pit poodle. He's been weak. He's been a bad performer. When he has spoken out, he's committed the most important mistakes of the election cycle so far. He attacked women's health. I don't think we need to spend half a billion on that. He said that Medicare for future beneficiaries should be changed and cut. He wants to re-litigate the Iraq war. He has 5 percent in the Iowa caucus. His father beat Ronald Reagan in the Iowa caucuses. His brother beat John McCain in the Iowa caucuses. He could be the first Bush to lose the Iowa caucuses.

BOLDUAN: We have a long way until then, Paul --

BEGALA: Yes, we do.

BOLDUAN: -- as much as you would hate to admit it.

(LAUGHTER)

Lanhee, let me bring you in on that, one of the things Paul picked up on. Because it's been an ongoing problem and caused a lot of trouble for Jeb Bush, the Iraq question. Here is what he just said yesterday. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Had we not invaded Iraq in first place, we wouldn't be dealing with this ISIS problem?

JEB BUSH, (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & FORMER FLORIDA GOVERNOR: Who knows? That's such a complicated hypothetical. Who knows? I can't answer that. I'll tell you, though, taking out Saddam Hussein turned out be a pretty good deal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Lanhee, you were a policy director for Mitt Romney in 2012. How do you advise Jeb Bush to handle this question? He offers a different answer, which has been confusing to voters.

[11:05:00] LANHEE CHEN, RESEARCH FELLOW, HOOVER INSTITUTION & FORMER ROMNEY POLICY DIRECTOR: Look, it's an extremely challenging issue for Governor Bush. It's challenging because of the history. It's challenging because of the dynamics of the Republican primary almost require candidates to demonstrate their ability to be strong on national security and draw contrast of President Obama and disastrous foreign policy we have seen over the last couple of years. This Iowa caucus process will play out so many different ways over next couple of months. It's very, very early in this process. It's one thing I completely agree with you on. When you look at the polls, it's very, very difficult to determine who will be the winner based on the polls today. If you look back to four years ago or eight years ago, the folks leading the polls, now ended up not doing all that well in the caucus. The winners were down at 4 percent at this time. We really got to take these polls with a grain of salt at this point. I think Governor Bush will sort the stuff out. It is a tough issue for him, no question.

BOLDUAN: It continues to be a tough issue for him, David. Voters -- and tell me what you're hearing on the ground. He had this red-meat speech on the soap box but voters don't seem satisfied because they keep asking about it and how he's handling the Iraq question so far. What you hearing from folks there?

CHALIAN: Today, he decided to take the Iraq question and make it about the future, how he would take the fight to ISIS. I think that's a much smarter approach. Every time he's talking about his brother's Iraq war, he ends up in place that's just on the defensive and not where the party is. Today he kept it forward looking on his plan to take the fight to ISIS. I will also say the one part of his speech that he made toward the end of the speech, which is not what you normally hear as red meat, the one non-read meat cause is he could be a consensus builder. That's not usually what you hear from these candidates who are trying to get the Republican crowd riled up but that is part of Jeb Bush's approach. He said he wants to campaign -- he wants to govern as he campaigns.

BOLDUAN: Running against Washington is definitely something the voters want to see on the Republican side this cycle, for sure.

Paul, I cannot let you go without asking about this. On the Democratic side, yes, Hillary Clinton has a commanding lead in Iowa, but the talk this morning is not of that. It's of Al Gore getting considering into the race. His team says the rumors are groundless, but someone is floating it. Why?

BEGALA: That's what you do if year before the election. Every Democrat with a pulse is pondering running --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Are you pondering running, Paul? Is that what you're announcing?

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: I can rule that out. But here's the case for Al Gore. He already won the presidency once. He beat Jeb's brother until the chief justice and all those other bandits stole it from him. There's -- I'm still not over it and a lot of Democrats are not. I was in touch with someone close to Vice President Gore who said this is not real. It's fun to speculate about it. I'm big for Hillary, obviously. The vice president is still a beloved person in my party.

BOLDUAN: Now we're going to be talking about a Clinton/Bush rematch or a Gore rematch up. There we go. There we go.

BAGALA: How great is that?

BOLDUAN: Exactly.

Paul, Chen and David, it's great to see you. Thanks so much.

BEGALA: Thanks.

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us, a miraculous rescue as crews pull a 19- year-old from the rubble of the devastating blast in China. The video is unbelievable. Unbelievably, there are still survivors nearly two days after those tremendous chemical plant explosions. Rescue crews are still searching for the many that are still missing.

And we have stunning new video from the moment of blast. Look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(EXPLOSION)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What the?

(EXPLOSION)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Holy (EXPLETIVE DELETED)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Dozens are dead. Homes just blown away. The blast described as feeling like a nuclear exPLOsion. It was felt miles away. Will Ripley is live near the site of the explosions.

Will, the scope of the devastation is hard to believe. What are you seeing there today?

[11:09:53] WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: As we have driven around, you really do, when you think about the fact that from the epicenter of the blast you have cars that were melted, buildings that are uninhabitable. We're inside one of 12 emergency shelters set up in city for thousands offense people who have been displaced. A lot of them are asleep. There's a makeshift tent city over there. We're on the campus of a primary school. Classrooms are turned into places where parents are sleeping and spending the night.

We're also hearing more about the initial fire response. The question that everybody wants to know, we know there were chemicals in this facility but what could spark this huge series of explosions. They interviewed a firefighter who says they used water when they initially responded to the report of the chemical fire at this facility. That's a critical piece of information. We know there were several volatile chemicals known to be stored there in which contact with water would create a violent reaction.

Of course, officials are down playing this because if this is true and if firefighters were unaware of the presence of these chemicals when they first responded that would indicate a huge regulatory oversight and there could be a lot of potential consequences criminally and politically as well. A lot of outrage about how this could have happened.

BOLDUAN: There are a whole lot of unanswered questions and they are looking for survivors.

Will, thank you very much.

It would be a game changer in the war against ISIS. Stunning accusations that the terrorists have used chemical weapons. Hear why the United States says the report is credible.

And a police officer pistol whipped, knocked out cold. Hear why no one helped and why the officer hesitated to use force.

And I'm going to speak live with the tourists who saved this man from a fiery wreck.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:15:] BOLDUAN: A dangerous development in the fight against ISIS. The Pentagon is now investigating what they call credible reports that ISIS has used chemical weapons, possibly mustard gas in Iraq. The attacked happened this week in the northern part of the country. And officials say Kurdish fighters showed signs of blisters on their skin and suffered breathing problems after the attack, indications a blistering agent like mustard gas was potentially used. This is yet confirmed, but officials call it credible. Let me bring in Michael Weiss to discuss, the co-author of "ISIS:

Inside the Army of Terror," and he's the senior editor at "The Daily Beast.

Michael, thanks so much for coming in.

This would be extremely serious and a huge development. Do you think ISIS is capable of using chemical weapons?

MICHAEL WEISS, SENIOR EDITOR, THE DAILY BEAST & AUTHOR: Absolutely. There's been allegations before this that they have been using chlorine bombs against another Kurdish faction in northern Syria, but they have yet to be substantiated. The chemical agent that's suggested to be used again the Peshmerga is mustard gas. The question is, where did they get it or are they able to manufacture it themselves. It's quite possible they might have retained it from the remnants of the Assad chemical weapons program. It pays to recall, a lot of guys in ISIS, especially at the top, came from the Hussein regime. Several months ago, the coalition killed one of the ISIS chemical weapons experts who had worked for the chemical weapons program. They have the know-how to do this. The question is, do they have the raw materials and can they manufacture it themselves. It is very alarming. If they are hitting the Kurds in northern Iraq, that puts them not far from where American trainers are stationed there. They will use more of this stuff in the future. There's no question.

BOLDUAN: If this is confirmed, if these reports bear out, what does this mean then in the ongoing fight against is. What does this mean for the U.S. in taking on the terrorists and all the regional allies? It could be a game changer.

WEISS: Well, I mean I think I put it in perspective. ISIS's former incarnation, al Qaeda in Iraq, did use chlorine gas bombs as early as 2006. That was in Iraq. An entire country that had Americans, over 150,000 American troop stations there. With respect to the current coalition effort, you don't have anything as sophisticated or powerful as the 101st Airborne or U.S. Marine Corps in Iraq or Syria fighting these guys. There's absolutely going to be susceptible to this. The question is, does ISIS have more stocks. If they do, how will they deploy them and against who? So far, the only alleged victims have been the Kurds. What happens is they start unleashing them. This could draw more foreign powers into this war and some kind of ground defensive. The U.S. is reluctant to get involved. I don't blame the American electorate for this. This is not a force that can be contained by dropping bombs from the sky.

BOLDUAN: To that point, you've got the fight on the ground against ISIS but the influence abroad. We now have a group that calls itself the Islamic State hacking division. It reported online a group of names and contacts for a thousands military government initial personnel. Some are questioning the legitimacy of the list but some of these contacts are accurate. How serious is the threat of this?

WEISS: Well, look, let's assume some of this might have been gleaned through very rudimentary forms of hacking and some through open source material, LinkedIn and white pages. What makes it threatening is they want to kill or they want to kidnap American servicemen, they want to kill agents of the U.S. government because, to them, these guys are fair game. Recall when they beheaded James Foley, the brother of a U.S. Air Force pilot, who is dropping bombs on Muslims and Islamic lands. This would be the ultimate high-value target for them to blow up Marine recruitment centers and something like this. A lot of these guys are savvy when it comes to cyber warfare. They're not asking for peasants. They're asking for engineers and doctors and electricians and people savvy with computers. And this is why.

[11:20:46] BOLDUAN: And their recruitment efforts continue as we speak, absolutely right.

Michael Weiss, great to see you. Thanks.

WEISS: Sure. Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us, a police officer pistol whipped, knocked out cold. The union said he hesitated because he didn't want to be the next officer to lose his job. Are police now holding back across the country?

Plus, one of the year's most anticipated movies opening today, and security at theaters is being ramped up for the movie. Hear why.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:24:47] BOLDUAN: Walking on egg shells. That's according to the police union in Birmingham, Alabama, after a police detective is pistol whipped unconscious with his own gun following a traffic stop. The officer hesitated to use his weapon because of the national attention that's been brought on police shootings. CNN has spoken to the officer. He said he suffered a conscious and needed more than a dozen staples in his head. The man who he says attacked him was arrested and charged with attempt murder. On top of all that, several bystanders took pictures of the officer on the ground instead of helping him. Even some of the online reaction appeared to show delight in seeing the officer injured.

Joining me now to discuss is former NYPD detective, Tom Verni.

Tom, thanks so much for joining me.

What do you make of what the union president said, that the officer hesitated because of the national attention on police shootings? And I should say, CNN has spoken to the officer, and he reiterated that. He said he hesitated because he didn't want to be in the media, like he is right now.

TOM VERNI, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: A couple of months back, we were talking about this with Wolf Blitzer in "The Situation Room," back in May, I believe, and that was my biggest fear. We had done a whole piece about these incidents that have occurred since Ferguson and the apprehension that officers have about taking police action. I said it in the piece. I said my biggest fear is an officer would be afraid to take action and that inaction would lead to his or her injury or possibly death. This is a classic example of that. It's tragic what happened down there.

BOLDUAN: There has to be something in between pulling out your weapon and shooting someone and being pistol whipped unconscious, isn't there? What is that?

VERNI: I don't know what the bigger tragedy is. The fact the officer felt inhibited or impeded in his wanting to take action out of fear of possibly being maligned by the press, media or the community, or the barbarians that watched him get pistol whipped and took video and took delight in this. The average citizen would not stand for something like this. The average citizen, which is a majority of citizens in the United States, would have taken action. They would have jumped in and helped this officer. These people that stood there, didn't help him and or took delight in this are barbarians. There's no word to describe that type of behavior. You should watch a police officer get beaten to the ground. I can't believe something like that would happen.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. I don't know how to say it. It's a sad statement of humanity and where we are right now. I do want to get your opinion. There are a lot of details that aren't known about what happened in the altercation. There isn't video that we know of right now. From the details that you have heard, do you think the officer would have been in the right to fire his weapon at this man?

VERNI: Well, you know what, he would have been in the right to take half force was necessary to overcome the circumstances which he was being presented with. If he would have lost consciousness, all the tools that this officer has on his utility belt, including his firearm, mace, possible a taser becomes property of the barbarian attacking him. That's a problem. It could be used against another police officer. It can be used against another citizen. This officer was fearing for his life and his safety and he could have used whatever tool available to him. If that happened to be his firearm, then so be it. If that would have been me where I'm by myself and being attacked then I would not have had a problem using my firearm. There's an old saying I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by six. That applies perfectly in this instance here. Police that are watching, please, my god, do your job the way you were trained to do. As long as you're doing it lawfully and doing it along the rules and regulations of whatever guides that your department is using, then you'll be exonerated in what you're doing.

BOLDUAN: That's the important part. Do your job right and everything will be OK. I think that's the big part of this national conversation that's happening right now.

Tom, thank you very much for coming in. I appreciate it.

VERNI: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us, an historic moment in Cuba. For the first time in more than 50 years, the American flag is flying once again at the U.S. embassy there. We'll take you there, live.

Plus, you may see more security at theaters this weekend. They are hiring extra guards, extra security presence in place for the movie rolling out. What does this mean for you?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)