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Donald Trump Still Tops the Republican Presidential Race Polls; Plea Deal for Jared Fogle; Josh Duggar Apologized for Being a Client of Cheating Website; Preview of "Evocateur - Morton Downey Jr.". Aired 8-9p ET.

Aired August 20, 2015 - 20:00   ET


[20:00:22] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Hey, good evening. Thanks for joining us.

Tonight barely a day after their dueling town halls in New Hampshire a new boost for Donald Trump and something of body blow for Jeb Bush. Last night on stage, in the town of Derry, Mr. Trump openly taunted the former GOP frontrunner about his campaign event.


DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You know what is happening to Jeb's crowd as you know right down the street? They're sleeping.


COOPER: Well, today, the wake-up call just might have arrived. And here it is. New polling from Quinnipiac University showing Donald Trump now out in front in Florida. Governor Bush's home state and one of the Bush campaign's primary fire walls. Mr. Trump is also outpolling, Florida senator Marco Rubio who is tied for third with Ben Carson.

Now, bearing in mind that his lead is within the margin of error, and of course, it is only August. That said it is fair to say that few people expected this.

Tom Foreman has been looking at the numbers behind this, behind the Florida surprise as well why the state matters so much. Take a look.


TRUMP: Thank you, thank you. Wow.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): How the New York billionaire is winning the sunshine state is something of a mystery. The new poll find that Florida Republicans don't trust Trump much. They don't believe he shares their concerns. And they think their former governor Jeb Bush is a better leader. But Trump is trouncing all of his opponents just the same.

TRUMP: My group. These are my people. These are my people.

FOREMAN: Bush is hitting back at Trump by appealing to the deep conservative streak among his home state's four million registered Republicans.

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He was a Democrat longer in the last decade than he was a Republican.

FOREMAN: With the nation's third largest Latino population listening, Florida's U.S. senator Marco Rubio is also trailing Trump and questioning his ideas about immigration.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The majority of it is really not a workable plan that could ever pass Congress.

FOREMAN: It is desperate work because for all the candidates in both parties, Florida is critical.


FOREMAN: The place that send rock tights space also sends people to the White House. There is enough delegates to be a major prize in the primaries. And with 29 electoral votes, it can decide to who gets the White House in the general election.

It done it before as the nation's largest swing state, Florida's vote in the presidential race has come down to the thinnest of margins. Remember, George W. Bush, Al Gore and the hanging chads.

And even as recently as 2012, Barack Obama beat Mitt Romney by less than one percent of the vote there. Still, it is a measure of Florida's political power and importance that in the past 10 presidential elections it has failed to pick the winner only once, Bill Clinton in 1992.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Congratulations.

Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.


COOPER: All right. Joining me to talk about Florida and the latest poll numbers, both its former two-term governor and sitting U.S. senator getting trumped to borrow a verb, CNN political commentator Ana Navarro who is a Jeb Bush supporter and friend of Marco Rubio. CNN contributor and Trump supporter Jeffrey Lord. Also, "New York Times" op-ed columnist, Frank Bruni, who wrote a column about Mr. Trump and Bush's titled "the tortoise and the hare."

Frank, the fact that Trump is ahead in Florida, I mean, what does it say about not only this whole race but about Jeb Bush and his chances?

FRANK BRUNI, OP-ED COLUMNIST, NEW YORK TIMES: Well, I mean, for starters, it's August. We have to keep remembering that. I think things are going to look a lot different in a couple months. And I think August is the month when people are paying the least attention.

What it says primarily is that Trump is sucking all the oxygen out of the room. He is getting all the attention. He is the one who is conveying all the passion. What is says about Jeb and has a lot of time to make up this ground. He has got a lot of money with which to make up this ground. But it say that for the moment, he is not showing the spark, the fire, the sense of urgency that I think would make voters turn his way and make voters turn his way with confidence about him in the White House.

COOPER: Despite the exclamation point on his poster?

BRUNI: The exclamation point in retrospect seems like a wish more than a reality. Although, I have to say, today, last 36 hours, there have been a number of instances when Jeb Bush shown a new fire. Your own John Berman said maybe the joyful tortoise is becoming the snapping turtle. And if that so, that's a probably a good development for him.

COOPER: Well, you wrote about this in the recent op-ed about how he sort of described himself, Jeb Bush, as the joyful tortoise. Not a great necessarily--.

BRUNI: Well, joyful tortoise might work in a different year if there weren't 17 candidates in the Republican primaries. But with that many people, I don't know that being slow and steady is a great virtue.

COOPER: Ana, I mean, it does seem, when you look at the numbers, and looking at Jeb Bush's performance, it does seem that Bush is still saying, I mean, he was attacking Trump yesterday is not a real conservative. But the idea seems to be still, well, kind of just wait him out. Just be the slow tortoise or the joyful tortoise and eventually Trump will start to fall. And people will see the real conservative record of, of Jeb Bush. Is that going to work?

[20:05:13] ANA NAVARRO, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: First of all, I hope he goes from being a joyful tortoise to being the Florida panther. And I think, you know, Jeb is a guy who does not live in a bubble. He doesn't surround himself by yes men. He surround by a lot of women who tell him no. And you can do better. And you know, I think that he has heard the message loud and clear. Frankly I think every candidate has heard the message loud and clear that voters are sending by supporting Donald Trump. They are mad as hell and they don't want to take it anymore. They're tired of politics as usual. And they want to see somebody in their candidates somebody that is going to fight for them.

I think you are going to see that from Jeb Bush. Are you going to see him breathe fire? No. That's not what he does. But I think you are going to see an energetic Jeb Bush because Frank is right. It is one thing to be in a two person field. Four person field is a completely different animal to be in a 17 person field where substance isn't just enough. You have to have personality and energy. And I think he has heard it and I think you are going to see it.

Jeb Bush is a guy who hears critiques and learns from his mistakes.

COOPER: Jeff, though, I mean, there are some people going to hear that and say, you know, just like Scott Walker is now talking about retooling or kind of revamping his campaign to reflect more of him as an outsider. And kind of reflect more of him as sort of a Donald Trump type character. Isn't that sort of the definition of not being authentic?

If you have, you know, you see what somebody else is doing who seems authentic and then your group around you say, you need to be authentic like that guy. We are going to retool you so that you are more authentic, isn't that incredibly inauthentic?

JEFFREY LORD, FORMER REAGAN WHITE HOUSE POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes. Yes, you are absolutely right, Anderson. I mean, I think that this is -- Jeb Bush, at least as I saw this when Donald Trump got into the race, there was one particular interview that I recall with Jeb Bush and Sean Hannity. And when the name Donald Trump was mentioned, the look of utter contempt on his face and dismissal was pretty hard to miss. And I thought to myself at the time, you know, that is a serious attitude mistake that if and when Donald Trump catches on here people are going to remember that kind of thing. And I think they do remember that. And I think that they associate this, you know, President Bush, 43, left with a 22 percent approval rating. I think there is that problem. As Frank is saying, this sort of low wattage tortoise approach here that I think is really doing him some damage. And frankly, I am not sure that he can get out of that.

COOPER: What about, Frank, about establishing Democrats? I mean, because you have got to be lot of establishment Republicans have given awful lot of money to Jeb Bush already. He has made, you know, had made more than $100 million or has that sitting around who got to be scratching their heads just as with Hillary Clinton, they got to be establishment Democrats who are saying what is going on? And who else is there? I mean, looking at Joe Biden and others.

BRUNI: I mean, it is fascinating race in the sense that we began with two people who seem to have just such incredible advantages above everybody else and it was going to a foregone conclusion and it was going to be boring. Its turned out nothing but boring. And each of these candidates is being haunted by something that was there at the start but it was being overlooked. Everyone knew Hillary had trust worthiness and credibility problems. Everybody knew Jeb was not exactly a font of charisma. Those exact things are haunting them.

I want to say one more thing about the poll, though. Florida was I though less standing for Jeb than were Iowa up Ohio and Pennsylvania where he was not in the top ten. I mean, top four among Republicans in either Ohio or Pennsylvania. That's a pretty disturbing result.

COOPER: And you look at the poll numbers that just put on the screen if we could put those back on the screen. I mean, choice for president in 2016, Florida voters. Clinton 41 percent. Trump, 40, 43 percent -- Jeff?

LORD: You know, I live in Pennsylvania. And I can tell you that President Bush 41 won Pennsylvania in 1988 largely because of his popularity and his association with President Reagan. When it came around to 1992 and when he was on his own, he lost Pennsylvania. And President Bush 43 lost Pennsylvania twice. So I would suggest that, you know there is a problem here for Jeb Bush. When Donald Trump says he is not electable this is the kind of thing we are talking about. COOPER: Also, Ana, it is interesting to Frank's point earlier which,

you know, Frank was saying, look. August is the slowest month. People aren't really paying attention. If FOX News gets 24 million viewers for a debate and that's nobody paying attention and who knows how many people are going to watch the next CNN debate. And even last night, Donald Trump on the air on CNN, you know, did very well in the numbers I'm told.

If this is nobody watching, what it this -- when people actually do start watching, doesn't that possibly bode even better for Trump?

NAVARRO: Well it bodes better for us, wouldn't it? Listen. There is no doubt about it that Donald Trump has added an entertainment factor to this race. That wasn't there without him. He is a seasoned TV star. He is a celebrity. He is media savvy. He hasn't paid one dime of media. But he has more earned media than anybody else put together. So, you know he's made it entertaining. We just can't stop watching.

And you know, I think that if Joe Biden gets in, we are going to see a lot of the same thing on the other side. One of the things from the poll that is very interesting is that Joe Biden does just does well if not better than Hillary Clinton in some of those swing states and he hasn't even announced. So you know, I think Hillary Clinton has a much bigger problem. Democrats have a much bigger problem than Republicans do right now.

Republicans have a, you know, bounty of good candidates with stark positions, contrasts to choose from. Democrats, they put all their eggs in one basket. And that basket isn't looking too good.

[20:11:04] COOPER: Although, somebody has sort of taken the Republican basket and has run away with it. I mean, there is plenty of other candidates out there, but I mean, you know.

BRUNI: Somebody has created unique set of problems in the Republican basket. I mean, we have seen over the last couple days this march to the right on immigration. We have seen this debate over the phrase anchor babies. We have seen debates over birthright citizenship. This is all stuff that is not going to help the eventual Republican nominee in the general.

COOPER: Frank --

LORD: I'm not so sure about that.

COOPER: We will see.

Frank, it is good to have you on. Jeffrey Lord, always. Ana Navarro as well.

Just ahead, one of them is a protected species, both for the moment are flying high. We will talk to "Time" magazine's Washington bureau chief about his conversation with Donald Trump and why a bald eagle was involved. Later, that massive hacking data dump from the cheaters website,

Ashley Madison, turns up the first big name. We'll tell you who it is and he is saying about all the money he spent.

We will be right back.


[20:15:41] COOPER: We are talking tonight about the sharp contrast between Donald Trump and Jeb Bush and how candidate Trump has reshaped the Republican primary. "Time" magazine has him on the cover this week that featured interview titled, "the Trump has landed deal with it," complete with a live eagle in the photo session.

"Time" Washington bureau chief Michael Scherer did the interview. Here are some highlights.


TRUMP: Well Jeb is a very low energy person. So he can sit around a table all day long with one general and talk and talk and, you know, but I see that general being grilled by you. And when I say, I watch on television, I do. And I watch in "Time" magazine. And I watch in "The New York Times" and the "Wall Street Journal." I read all of them a lot. And I get my views from, you know, from the media, a lot of the views. And you know, frankly a lot of people do. The views that you will see during those 10 and 15 minute segments or doing reading story are not a lot different than Jeb sitting around with a policy group, if he really has such a thing.

You know, it sounds good. I can say that too, you know. I was an excellent student at the best school. And I could also say, well, I have a great policy group and we sit around. I mean, I wonder whether or not Jeb actually has that.

People are talking about diplomacy or tone. You know, Bush brings up tone all the time, tone. We need strong tone. We're too far behind. We are behind. We are not wing, you know. If we are winning we can soften it up. But you look at Putin. Can't stand Obama. And Obama can't stand him, in all fairness. But we don't get along with anybody anymore.

Hillary Clinton was the worst secretary of state in the history of the country. The world came apart under her reign as secretary of state. Clinton had a lot of problems with the Monicas of the world, and had he not had those problems he would have had a pretty good presidency. Not a great one, but a pretty solid presidency. But that was a disaster and a tremendous distraction.

Jeb Bush puts his friend in charge of his Pac and they don't talk. I guarantee you they talk all the time. And he has got $114 million sitting there that he is going to try to build up his own image which is not easy to do. And he is going to work hard, as is Hillary Clinton, they all have their friend rung their PACs. They're all breaking the law in my opinion. Because if you tell me that Jeb and the various other people that have set up PACs, and I'm not even talking about Jeb, he is not even second in the polls for the most part. We have people that are far ahead of Jeb. But the people that set up PACs are all talking. They put their best friend in there. They put people, lawyers, they put all sorts of people in there that are friendly to them. Well that's not supposed to happen.


COOPER: We're going to talk about the interview and larger situation with Donald Trump with "Time" magazine's Michael Scherer.

Michael. I'm wondering what you thought about just the whole process, the experience of interviewing Donald Trump? I mean, I talked with him twice, I guess, for lengthy interview. And I mean, in my opinion he is unlike any other politician in terms of just the conversation one can have?

MICHAEL SCHERER, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, TIME MAGAZINE: That's right. Well, first of all, it goes for an hour and a half. I don't usually spend an hour and a half interviewing On the Record any politician. Secondly, he is incredibly charming and flattering. I mean, he is a real salesman. Trump I think is really approaching politics in a different way. I mean, he is not doing it as a politician. He is doing it as Trump. And Trump is more a promoter, a salesman, a pitchman, than anything else.

COOPER: The charming aspect of him, I think for people who haven't met him, they may not get that. But there is that one-on-one with him. And to people around he is very outgoing, kind of, he is, I mean, there is this charm to him whether you agree with what he is saying or not. We were covering both the Jeb Bush event and the Trump town hall event in New Hampshire last night, happening at almost the same time. And I mean, the contrast between the two, you could not have two more different people temperamentally, at the top of the polls.

SCHERER: And that is a tough comparison for Jeb Bush right now. Remember, Jeb late last year was coming into the race saying he was going to be the joyful candidate. And Donald Trump is just having more fun than anybody else right now. And it is totally clear. It is hard to avoid that. And Trump's attack on Jeb is that he is, he is a low energy person which is sort of a wonderful phrase, but basically means not a lot of fun. And that hits Jeb very much at what he want to be when he got into the race.

[20:20:10] COOPER: Well, that's another thing that I find interesting about Trump is his willingness and his ability to attack somebody on their weaknesses. I mean, to, you know publicly state, Jeb Bush is a low energy kind of guy which is actually a polite, I mean, is a polite way of saying, what, what he could I guess say, say in different ways. But he does that time and time again. Sometimes he is obviously not so polite. But attacking is part of what he does.

SCHERER: Yes -- no. And it is a part of the stick (ph). I mean, so Trump is a politician. He does have policies. I mean, a lot of the candidates don't have policies right now. But really, what we are tuning into, and I think what Republican voters have been tuning into is the show. And that show he has been honing for decades now.

You go back to 1989 or 1992. I mean, he was selling himself as this act. And I think over the years he has really become the act. And we are in a strange space right now where the act actually comes across more authentic than a lot of the politicians.

COOPER: It's also interesting to now hear candidates really, Scott Walker, who talked, you know, there is reports now that they're kind of repositioning themselves, kind of re-honing their message to be more like Trump which actually kind of argues Trump's point about not being authentic. I mean, if you are then having your team meet together to reposition your message to sound more like the authentic guy, that's the ultimate inauthentic act.

SCHERER: When I talk to Trump on Tuesday, he kept bringing up and laughing over the interviews that Scott Walker had done on Monday at the state fair trying to find a way to respond to Trump's immigration white paper. And Walker, I don't know if you saw the clips was really struggling with finding a way of embracing without actually embracing in a way that could be later used against him in a general election what Trump had been saying. And he loves that stuff. I mean, Trump loves being the real guy.

COOPER: I got to ask about the bald eagle in the photo shoot. Was that Trump's idea?

SCHERER: No, it was the photographer, Martin Shoaler, and it turned out to be a good idea. I mean, as soon as the photographer mentioned it to Trump, he loved it.

COOPER: Of course.

SCHERER: And embraced it. I don't think "Time" has ever photographed a presidential candidate with a wild animal before. So it was a first. And I wasn't at that shoot. But I was told that there were times where it was kind of hairy. A bald eagle doesn't do well in a Manhattan skyscraper. And, you know, at one point I think it pushed books off the desk and things like that. But Trump was game.

COOPER: If anybody can tame a bald eagle, it is Donald Trump.

SCHERER: I'm sure he would tell you that.

COOPER: Michael Scherer, Thanks so much. Appreciate it.

SCHERER: Thank you.

COOPER: Up next, former president Jimmy Carter revealing the details of his cancer diagnosis. Our Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins us for that.

Plus, fugitive killer, David Sweat's day in court and the new charges he is facing since the escape when we continue.


[20:27:02] COOPER: Former president Jimmy Carter today delivered the news that is hard to talk about even with close family. This morning in a nationally televised news conference from the Carter center in Atlanta, the 39th president of the United States says he has advanced and highly aggressive form of cancer, stage four melanoma. And the cancer, he said, had been found in his liver and four spots in his brain. He said he would begin radiation treatment today and be receiving a new and very promising anti-cancer drug. Mr. Carter who is nearly 91 years old spoke for almost 40 minutes. He talked accomplishments, regrets, plans for the future and the reaction he initially had when he thought he had only weeks to live.


JIMMY CARTER, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You know, I have had a wonderful life. I have had thousands of friends. And I have had an exciting and adventurous, gratifying existence. So I was surprisingly at ease, much more so than my wife was. But now, I feel, you know, this is in the hands of God who I worship. And I will be prepared for anything that comes.


COOPER: Well, he also said he plans to teach Sunday school back in Plains, Georgia, this weekend and every Sunday as long as he is physically and mentally able.

For more insight into that, what lies ahead for him, I want to turn to our CNN chief medical correspondent and practicing neurosurgeon Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Sanjay, I think when most people hear melanoma, obviously, they think about skin cancer. President Carter talked about it being on his liver and his brain. How unusual is that?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it is unusual. And the sort of question is did he have skin cancer at some point that was in the past and they're not finding it now? Or is it one of this very rare situation where in fact the melanoma, which again is a typically a skin cancer, in fact, it came from somewhere inside the body. Started somewhere inside the body. They don't know the answer. We asked the doctors about that. And they also point out that as far as his treatment going forward, it doesn't really matter. What they know is that the melanoma, he has melanoma and it has spread throughout his body. So that's the sort of focus of the treatment.

COOPER: And in terms of treatment, I mean, he said he is starting radiation this afternoon.

GUPTA: Yes. It is pretty remarkable. You know he comes up there. And you know, nobody really knew the type of cancer that he had. And he was -- at the beginning cracking some jokes. But he got right down to it saying he has this, stage 4, melanoma, meaning that it has spread throughout his body. He already got one dose of chemotherapy in his veins yesterday. And he is starting this radiation therapy today. So you know, you just got an idea just how quickly moving the situation was for him.

COOPER: For a man his age, I mean, 90 years old. How much does his age play into his treatment?

GUPTA: You know, Anderson. It is one of these, sort of interesting things in medicine. Chronological age certainly plays a role. Everybody asks that question. But you and I both know that, you know, you could have 90 year olds who basically have the physiology, if you will, the makeup of someone who is 60, even 50. And also vice versa, 50 year olds who have more the body of the 90 year olds. And that is probably more important in terms of how he is going to do with this overall.

He is a pretty active guy. You know, you will appreciate him. This fall, he was planning on flying to Katmandu from here then take a polo hopper from Katmandu to an area further south where he is going to go help build homes for Habitat for Humanity. I was in Nepal not that long ago. It's tough to get around there as it is. He was going to do this at 90 years old. And he told me, he may still do it depending if you can schedule around his treatment. So, it's going to take a toll on him. And the chemotherapy will certainly make him tired as will the radiation. But, you know, he is very, very optimistic about this.

COOPER: And, I mean, he has, obviously, a family history of pancreatic cancer. A lot of deaths in his family from that. Is there a connection or possible connection between the two?

GUPTA: You know, it doesn't appear to be. And here's why. Typically, if you have a hereditary basis to your cancer. Something that you inherited essentially. Typically, if you are going to develop cancer you develop it earlier on in life. People have a genetic component to their cancer, get it at an earlier stage in life. He is 90 years old. So, it's unlikely that that pancreatic cancer mutation really affected him. The melanoma could be related only in that some people who have - likely to have developing certain cancers could be more likely to develop other cancers as well. But again, the doctors really don't think there is a relationship between the two and they are going to treat this simply as a melanoma that has spread throughout his body.

COOPER: All right. Sanjay, thank you very much.

GUPTA: Thank you.

COOPER: A lot more happening tonight. Amara Walker has a "360 Bulletin." Amara.

AMARA WALKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, community leaders are calling for calm in St. Louis tonight after protesters clashed with police yesterday. Following the police shooting of a black teenagers. Authorities say the 18-year-old pointed a gun at officers.

The convicted murderer who broke out of an upstate New York prison was indicted today on escape charges and promoting prison contraband. The judge entered a not guilty plea for David Sweat who spent 22 days on the run. If convicted, Sweat could get an extra seven years in prison. He is already serving life without parole. And Caitlyn Jenner could face a misdemeanor involuntary manslaughter

charge in this chain reaction crash last February that killed a woman. And that's according to a Los Angeles County sheriff's detective. Investigators determined Jenner's driving speed was unsafe for prevailing conditions. The D.A. will ultimately decide if Jenner should be charged. Anderson.

COOPER: Amara, thanks very much. Coming up, the spouse cheating website, Ashley Madison hacked just the other day has outed its first well-known name and it is a doosie. We'll tell you who it is and what they did. Also, in other news, former Subway spokesman, Jared Fogle has agreed to plead guilty to charges of child porn and having sex with minors. I will speak with a witness in the investigation who says she heard Fogle talk about teenage girls then alerted authorities. What else he told this woman is stunning. We'll also talk to child safety advocate John Walsh.


COOPER: As part of his plea deal on charges of child pornography and having sex with minors, former Subway spokesman Jared Fogle has agreed to pay $1.4 million in restitution. That's a $100,000 each for 14 victims. Now, Fogle's lawyer says he realizes the money won't undo the harm he's caused. Joining me now, is child safety advocate, John Walsh, host of CNN's "The Hunt" and Rochelle Herman who was a witness in the Jared Fogle investigation.

Rochelle, you met Jared Fogle back in 2007 you were a reporter. And you say that he made some remarks to you that triggered you to actually go to the authorities. What happened?

ROCHELLE HERMAN, WITNESS, JARED FOGLE INVESTIGATION: He, the remarks that he made to me were really just off the cuff. And he told me that he was, he thought that middle school girls were so hot.

COOPER: And this just came out of nowhere?

HERMAN: Out of nowhere. We were actually at a school here in my area. And he was going - he was with the American Heart Association. And we were preparing. I was doing TV and radio at the time. And I was on the stage in the auditorium. We are waiting for the group of kids to come in. And he thought that we were just by ourselves having a one-on-one conversation when in fact my cameraman who was just off in the gymnasium said, he was recording us. And he heard Jared say that to me. We were having, just a nice conversation. And he just came out of the blue when we were talking about the kids. And he thought he said that he thought, that the middle school girls were hot.

COOPER: Did you save anything to him? Or I mean I don't even know, what one would say?

HERMAN: Well, I was in shock. And I actually was questioning, did I really just hear what I think I heard? And I looked over at my cameraman and he just dropped his jaw. He was just astounded as I was. COOPER: And in the conversations with him over the years, which you say the FBI had you record, did he say more? Did he talk about sexual relations with underaged children?

HERMAN: Yes. Yes he did. He was - It was just something that he really, really enjoyed. And he trusted me for unknown reasons. I seemed to have a, by nature my personality is very comforting. And people seem to take to me quite easily. And that's what happened with Jared. And he had said numerous times to me over the course of the years, about -- having sex with minors.

COOPER: And so, and these were recorded conversations?

HERMAN: Recorded conversations, correct.

COOPER: John, I mean you talked about how vigilant. It's so important. The fact that Michelle did the right thing in this situation. Went to law enforcement. It underscores that when you have a feeling about someone or know they have such awful intentions, how important is to actually say something.

JOHN WALSH, CHILD SAFETY ADVOCATE: Without a doubt. My hands, my head is off to this lady for having the guts to go forward and pursue this. And this all started out of a small tip to local law enforcement in Indiana who took it to state law enforcement and then on to the FBI and to federal law enforcement.


WALSH: And this is a great example of the public watching out, saying, there is something wrong with this guy. And now they, now it, hindsight is 20/20. This is a world class level three pedophile. And it's a perfect example of the average citizen like this wonderful woman. Someone making that tip and taking it forward and taking a couple of creeps off the streets.

COOPER: And John, I mean the scope of this whole thing. 14 victims. Multiple states. And, it, I mean, and again this is something you have talked about before. But you can't tell what a child predator looks like. That I mean it could be - it can be anybody. This is somebody who was trusted, who was admired. Who was, you know, known around the world.

WALSH: You are absolutely right. You and I have often talked about this. It doesn't look like the guy under the bridge with the trench coat that is exposing himself to the children on the playground. It looks like every grandpa, everybody else out there. And here is a guy that has his own foundation and the executive director of that foundation, police allege this guy Russell Taylor, the executive director of this foundation secretly videotaped children that came to his house. Maybe children that he was working at the foundation and these guys literally shared thousands, now they said that they have over 3,000 videos. They shared thousands of pictures of children either Jared molested or that this guy secretly videotaped in his home or motel rooms where he was with children. Maybe children that were being helped by this foundation. We don't know that yet. But you know, they just look like everybody else. And you really have to, you have your radar up.

COOPER: Rochelle, Jared Fogle actually talked to you about putting cameras in your child's bedroom?

HERMAN: Yes, I had two young children at the time. And he talked to me about having - installing cameras, hidden cameras in their rooms. And asked me if I would choose which child I would like him to watch.

COOPER: Why did he even think that would be something -- I mean that's just unbelievable.

HERMAN: It is unbelievable. You have to understand that during the time that I had with the FBI, I had to play a role. I had to play, a certain part. In order for Jared to be able to trust me further. And talk further into detail.

COOPER: So, you made him comfortable enough to - that he would just continue to reveal himself.

HERMAN: That's correct.

WALSH: Think about this, Anderson. He never once thought about his family, his two children, never once thought about his job, and that he was a spokesperson for a big product. Never once worried about that. He was so confident that he would never get caught, so arrogant, so remorseless. That he bragged to this wonderful lady who outed him. But, you know, I am very disturbed by the deal. And I am holding out and hoping and praying that this judge says, OK, you made a deal, but I'm going to give you the max. I am going to make sure you are in prison as long as I can keep you there.

COOPER: Which is totally within the judge's power to do that regardless whatever deal he's made with prosecutors. John, we'll continue to follow it obviously. John Walsh, thank you. And Michelle Herman, really, an honor to talk to you. Thank you for all you have done.

WALSH: Oh, thank you, you are very welcome. Thank you.

COOPER: Well, coming up, the first well-known name in the Ashley Madison, data dump, a very big family values advocate. What he says about being on the cheater's list. The level of hypocrisy is stunning. When we come back.




COOPER: Well, Josh Duggar, the self - family values advocate who is on the reality show, "90 Kids and Counting", is the first famous or infamous name to be revealed in the wake of a cheating website being hacked. His information came up in the stolen database of people who use the Ashley Madison Website. Now, a month ago, hackers calling themselves the impact team said they would release customer profiles if the website wasn't shut down. They made good on the threat this week and the impact, well it is already starting. Randi Kaye reports.

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Among the names of 32 million wannabe cheaters, hackers posted on line, one name stands out. Josh Duggar, the same Josh Duggar of reality TV fame who earlier this summer was exposed for having sexually molested his sisters when he was a young teenager. Including one sister who was just five years old.

And now, this - two active accounts connected to Josh Duggar on the Website, A site that proudly helps married people cheat by hooking them up with sex partners. Ashley Madison's slogan is -- life is short, have an affair.

The address attached to Duggar's first account, called Josh the man, matches the address of his Arkansas, home. The second account, ready for this D.C. appears to have been opened when he was spending time in Maryland. Leading a group that lobbied against same-sex marriage. Record show Duggar paid almost $1,000 to the cheating Website since 2012. Duggar's second account included an initial fee of $250. And an affair guarantee. Your money back if you don't have an affair within three months.

Duggar's information posted on line was verified by a cybersecurity company for CNN. His most intimate desires are listed as bubble baths, sex toys, oral sex and fantasies. He was interested in someone he can teach who is open to experimentation. Someone good with their hands who likes cuddling. Hugging and sex talk. Here's what he listed as turn-ons, muscular fit body, naughty girl. Confidence. Also, a good listener and someone with a secret love nest who has natural breasts and is disease free.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I Joshua take thee Anna to be my wedded wife.

KAYE: When Josh and his wife Anna took their vows on the reality show in 2008. Viewers had no idea he had sexually assaulted his sisters, a secret hidden by his own parents for years. Josh apologized in May. And apologized again today for cheating. His statement reads in part -- I have been the biggest hypocrite ever.


While espousing faith and family values, I have been unfaithful to my wife. I am so ashamed of double life that I have been living." He goes on. "The last few years while publicly stating I was fighting against immorality in our country I was hiding my own personal failures. Duggar was likely referring to his stint as executive director of the Family Research Council. A conservative group which champions marriage and family. The group fought against the legalization of same-sex marriage. Josh Duggar stepped down when news about his sister's molestation was made public.

DUGGAR: Our mission is before us.

KAYE: But the dates line up. He worked championing marriage while paying the Ashley Madison website to find a secret lover.

(END VIDEOTAPE) COOPER: Randi joins me now. Again, the hypocrisy is just ...

KAYE: Beyond.

COOPER: Beyond imagination. What about his wife in all of this?

KAYE: She hasn't said a word. Which is sort of surprising, Anderson. Because back in May when it came out that he molested his sisters when he was just 15 years old she came out with a statement, supporting him. Saying that he had gone down the wrong path. And that he'd gotten the counseling and the treatment that he needed. And today, complete silence from her. And I am sure it is very difficult. They have four children. They just had a baby girl in July. They posted pictures of the baby on Facebook. And now the comments instead of saying congratulations on Facebook, they say, Anna, you should leave him. You should get rid of him. He cheated on you. You don't have to stay with him. So, it's a completely different story than probably what they were expecting.

COOPER: Feel terrible for her and the kids.

KAYE: Randi, thank you, very much. I appreciate it. Up next, "Evocateur: the Morton Downey Jr. Movie" airs right after this program on CNN. We're going to have a preview and I'll speak with Michael Smerconish about why he thinks Downey cast a shadow on political discourse that continues to this day.


COOPER: In just a few minutes. CNN will air "Evocateur: the Morton Downey Jr. Movie." looking back at the career of the King of Shock TV. Now, before Jerry Springer, before, a lot of folks, Morton Downey Jr. screamed his way into living rooms in the 1980s. and - his talk show was short-lived it left a permanent mark on anyone who saw it. Here's a preview.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know AIDS can only be caught basically in sexual ways.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know that it has never been proven that AIDS can be sexually transmitted. It has never been proven in a laboratory.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I don't know that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And nobody was ....

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because ooh have spoken a number of people at the CDC.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am in the middle of this. You ought to know that. I'm in the middle of research. Have been for a number of years.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you a research expert?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you a research expert?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shut up. And let me.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you a research expert.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You shut up. All you are doing is spewing garbage.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was attracted to that kind of awkward, dangerous atmosphere. When he first came on the scene. I was immediately sort of mesmerized by the show.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A vegan. I abstain --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me hear what she has to say here. Go ahead. You abstain from what?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I abstain from all animal products. Including dairy and clothing.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I eat raw hamburger.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what is your cholesterol?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I eat raw fish. I smoke four packs of cigarettes a day.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, can I say you something?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have about four drinks a day. I am 55 years old and I look as good as you do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Joining me to talk, is talk radio and CNN host Michael Smerconish.

COOPER: I read an op-ed piece that you wrote about "Evocateur," in which you say that Morton Downey Jr. was a man who drove us into our national ditch. In what ways do you think he did that?

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN HOST: I think he was a milestone. I think that he was sort of the beginning of the polarized era of both the media world and in Washington. I think it can all be sort of traced to what went on in the late 1980s. Morton Downey came on the air in 1987. It was still the Reagan '80s. 60 percent of the Senate comprised of moderates. Today there are zero. And I maintain that too many elected officials take their cues from the Morton Downey's of today.

COOPER: It's also incredible. I mean I had never seen at that point anyone who made yelling and insulting people. And it didn't matter what the facts were. He didn't really pay attention to that. He didn't really - he wasn't armed with the facts.

SMERCONISH: Correct. All to the delight of the audience. The studio audience of angry white, 20 or 30-somethings. If you watch the movie tonight. What you will see is that everything was preordained. There was a sit down before he taped those broadcasts, and he got his talking points together. And they say he had a remarkable memory. Whether he believed them is the subject of debate. He was very close to the Kennedy clan. As a matter of fact ...

COOPER: Was he really?

SMERCONISH: Yeah, growing up. Had a family home in Hyannis Port, very close to the Kennedys. Was a friend of Ted Kennedy. And was friendly with many of the staff members. And they couldn't believe it. They were watching their television sets. And this all comes out in "Evocateur". And they are thinking, who the hell is this guy Morton Downey Jr. We know him. That's not him.

COOPER: I always wondered why people would go on. And I guess people wanted. I mean it's the same reason I guess that anybody goes on television. They want airtime. They want to be able to get their point across no matter what, no matter how awful you are going to be yelled at?

SMERCONISH: A lot of - it's been 30 years. It's been three decades. A lot of the faces are the same. In "Evocateur" you see a smack down between he and much younger Ron Paul. You see Gloria Allred on the receiving end of a rant that he does against feminism. So, a lot of the people they're still with us and players.

COOPER: It's just - it's fascinating. Michael. Thank you so much.

SMERCONISH: Thank you, Anderson.

COOPER: That does it for us. We'll see you again later tonight.


COOPER: CNN films, "Evocateur: The Morton Downey Jr. movie starts now.