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THE SITUATION ROOM
Search Widens for 3 Suspects in Cop Killing; Trump, Bush Step Up Attacks; Will Biden Run for President?; U.S. Intelligence Leads to Strikes on ISIS Leaders. Aired 5-6:00p ET
Aired September 2, 2015 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[17:00:13] BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Happening now, on the run, police brought in their manhunt after the killing of an Illinois officer. They say three suspects may already be out of state. They're scanning surveillance video for possible clues, but will it take a tip from the public to break the case open?
Police in peril. A wave of deadly attacks on law enforcement. Why are police being targeted? And will they have to change the way they carry out their duties?
War of words. Accused of being a liberal by Jeb Bush, Donald Trump fires back, saying his rivals should be speaking English while in the United States. How will that play with Latino voters who already hold a very negative view of the frontrunner?
And drone wars. Eyes in the skies over Iraq and Syria help the U.S. take out top ISIS leaders. What role is the CIA playing in these successful strikes? We'll have new details on that.
Wolf Blitzer is off. I'm Brianna Keilar. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
There are new developments this evening in the hunt for three suspected killers of an Illinois police officer. Authorities say the two-mile area surrounding the crime scene has been thoroughly scoured. That intensive hunt is now giving way to a broader search as police concede the suspects may have left town or even the states.
Investigators now going through surveillance video from homes and businesses in the area, and they're calling on the public to come through with tips that may help them break the case.
Our correspondents, analysts and guests are standing by with full coverage of the day's top stories, and we begin with that search for the killers of a police officers in Fox Lake, Illinois.
CNN national correspondent Ryan Young is there.
Ryan, what's the latest?
RYAN YOUNG, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know more than 100 investigators are now spread throughout the state to try to find these three men. We went through the entire neighborhood just this afternoon, not only by air, but by boat and by ground just to see what was going on. You can really tell there's a difference in terms of the perimeter that was set up, the massive perimeter that we saw yesterday, as more than dozens and dozens of officers flooded into the area to look for these three suspects.
Right now that perimeter has been relaxed. We do know at 2:30 they really dropped and changed the way they were doing the tactics here. We did talk about surveillance video, because we talked to business owners who said they had cameras rolling in the area, so we know investigators are scouring through all those images to try to find better descriptions of the suspects.
If you look behind me here at the police department, you can see the growing memorial that is here. People have been coming through all afternoon to pay their respects to Officer Gliniewicz, because he is someone they knew for years in this community, 32 years a man they called G.I. Joe.
We got an aerial view today, Brianna. One thing that we noticed is, we didn't see all the K-9 dogs, the K-9s and other people who were out there on the streets looking like we did before.
One thing we did hear, though, is, more people are coming in. Tips are coming in at a fast pace, because people obviously are trying to help in terms of this investigation. Talking to sources off- camera, they've been able to say to us there's more information that they know they're still not sharing with us, just as they continue this investigation.
One question we did have, obviously, was whether or not the officer's gun was recovered at the scene. That's something they still haven't clarified as of yet.
KEILAR: All right. Ryan Young, thank you so much.
Congressman Bob Dole -- Dold, I should say, of Illinois knew the slain police officer. He's been briefed by law enforcement there in Fox Lake. He's joining me now on the phone.
Representative, I do want to talk to you about the latest on this manhunt, but before I do that, you knew Joe Gliniewicz. Tell us about it. What was he like?
REP. BOB DOLD (R), ILLINOIS (via phone): Let me say that we lost a dear friend, not only to the Fox Lake community, the police community, but he was a scoutmaster for an Explorer post. You couldn't come to an event in Fox Lake, and for the viewers that might not know Fox Lake, this is a very tight-knit community, very beautiful in a chain of lakes. And Officer Gliniewicz, you know, you couldn't come to an event and not see Joe. And so he was very much a fabric of the community. And that's why the community is literally -- they're just reeling from what happened.
And I do believe that this family will come together and will have a vigil this evening to remember Joe and to make sure that we're rallying behind his family. KEILAR: Thank you so much for sharing information with us about
the kind of man that -- that he was. We're certainly sorry for your loss.
Give us a sense of where this manhunt for the suspects, who are sought in connection with the murder of Officer Gliniewicz. What is the status of it?
DOLD: Well, I too am over here at the police station, as well. And I can tell you that we have so many different assets, federal assets that are here on the ground. We've got multiple police departments from all over the area. Phone calls have been flooding in from people. I was in the station earlier today when an air marshal came in. This was his day off.
[17:05:15] There's a tremendous amount of assets, K-9 units, air support on this hunt to make sure that we will continue to be vigilant. And that's one of the things that Chief Filenko of the major crimes task force earlier said, is that they will be tenacious and will not let this rest until these three suspects are in custody.
KEILAR: Do you have any information on who they were? What they were stopped for?
DOLD: I don't have any of that information that I'm able to share with you, unfortunately. So I just don't have that at this time.
KEILAR: Local media is reporting that Lieutenant Gliniewicz's gun was found at the scene of the shooting. It wasn't taken from the scene by the suspects. Do you have any information on that?
DOLD: What I can tell you is only what Ryan has already relayed, and that is that's what's been reported. I was briefed by some laud enforcement, and that has not come out to be anything different than what I've already heard and what has been reported thus far.
KEILAR: What are you hearing from residents in the area about their safety concerns? And what are you advising them to do?
DOLD: Listen, people -- first of all, first and foremost, are heartbroken that someone that was truly a hero in the community, someone that was part of the day-to-day life right here in Fox Lake has been taken from us tragically.
I do know that Donny Schmit, the mayor, and others are making sure that people know that we want them to be alert. We want citizens to be alert and aware of what's going on in their surroundings, to make sure that they're reporting any tips that they may have, but this is something that certainly is not the norm for a beautiful community that really is just one big giant family.
KEILAR: All right, Representative Robert Dold, thanks so much for talking to us.
DOLD: Thank you. KEILAR: We're very sorry for the loss that your community has
The killing of this Illinois officer is the latest in a troubling wave of police deaths across the country. CNN's Brian Todd has been looking into this. What did you find, Brian?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Brianna, tonight police officers across the U.S. have their guard up even more than usual. The Fraternal Order of Police tells us ambush attacks aimed at the killing or injuring of officers have risen dramatically in the last few years, but it's the string of killings of officers in recent weeks that's really got the law enforcement community on edge.
TODD (voice-over): Lieutenant Joe Gliniewicz, gunned down while on patrol in Illinois. Texas Sheriff's Deputy Darren Goforth dies in a hail of 15 bullets. Louisiana State Trooper Steven Vincent shot him in the head, then taunted him after stopping to help a stranded motorist.
Cold-blooded murders that add to a horrifying recent pattern. Seven law enforcement officers shot to death in a month, 24 officers shot and killed so far this year across America.
JIM PASCO, FRATERNAL ORDER OF POLICE: In every instance it's been an act of cowardice.
TODD: Though the motivation behind the attacks may be varied, the high number has prompted the attorney general to issue a stern declaration.
LORETTA LYNCH, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: The targeting of police officers is totally unacceptable. And we will continue to stand up for the safety of our officers wherever they serve.
TODD: Police union officials and law enforcement experts say several factors have formed the so-called perfect storm of hostility toward police. The string of police brutality cases like Eric Garner's death.
ERIC GARNER, KILLED BY POLICE: I can't breathe. I can't breathe.
TODD: And the killing of Walter Scott, shot in the back by a South Carolina policeman, have fanned the anger against cops.
RON HOSKO, LAW ENFORCEMENT LEGAL DEFENSE FUND: Is police behavior a factor here? Police behavior is unquestionably a factor. We are in an era of cell phone video that is ubiquitous. And so mistakes, heavy-handedness by the police, we can expect to be collected and retransmitted many, many times, so the police have to be smarter.
TODD: Police advocates say a saturation of media coverage has contributed to the spike, and they believe civil rights groups bear some responsibility.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon!
TODD: That chant from Black Lives Matters protestors this week in Minnesota angered many in law enforcement.
HOSKO: We heard the chants from Black Lives Matter organizers or protesters just this weekend after the death of Deputy Goforth down in Texas, chanting in what sounds like a pro-police attack posture.
TODD: DeRay McKesson from Black Lives Matter says the recent killings of police are upsetting, but shouldn't be politicized.
DERAY MCKESSON, BLACK LIVES MATTER: The only charged rhetoric that I've heard has been about accountability for the police. Accountability for a profession that has refused any attempts to be accountable for the things that happened to them.
TODD: Now police advocates say officers may be more hesitant to respond strongly to threats, like in one recent case in Alabama, where a detective says he didn't want to be the next cop scrutinized in the media.
[17:10:07] PASCO: Didn't act, by his own admission, when the perpetrator pulled his way out of the car, took the officer's weapon and pistol whipped him almost to death with it.
TODD: How else will the police change their behavior as a result of all this? Law enforcement experts say they expect police squads to change deployment tactics and move around in teams of two or three officers when possible.
Also, responses to crime scenes may be slower while officers wait for a second car to get there, Brianna. They may change their tactics on the streets here.
KEILAR: What -- that seems to, like it would work in big cities. What about smaller towns, though, like Fox Lake?
TODD: That's right. In smaller towns, it probably can't work. They just don't have the manpower. Experts are telling us in smaller towns, the police are going to have to continue to patrol alone. Police advocates say that makes them more vulnerable. Other people say that makes it easier for them to get away with excessive force. It depends on how you look at this debate.
KEILAR: All right. Brian Todd, thanks for that report.
I want to get more now on the killing of that police officer in Illinois. We have CNN law enforcement analyst Tom Fuentes joining me now. He's a former FBI assistant director.
So, Tom, can you tell us what information officials might have that would prompt them to close this search in one area, rather small area, but then broaden the search elsewhere?
TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I think, Brianna, the fact that, you know, once the officer was found dead at 8 a.m. yesterday morning, a two-mile perimeter, it would have taken these fugitives about 30 minutes to walk two miles and get beyond that perimeter.
So if they've already searched that area thoroughly and they're pretty convinced that they're not hidden in a house or shack or cabin somewhere within that perimeter, then it would be time to expand and move on, especially now, this far into the investigation.
KEILAR: We don't have information about the traffic stop, other than what Officer Gliniewicz radioed in, that he was following three suspicious guys, two of whom were white, one was black. Do you think police actually have more information, and they're not revealing it?
FUENTES: I can't imagine that. And I hope that's not the case. You know, the police rely on the media to relay to the public descriptions of very dangerous individuals out there. That's why we have Amber Alerts. That's why we put these "be on the lookout" dispatches out after a robbery or any other major event, where they have a suspect, like the fugitives that escaped from prison in New York.
If you have information about their identity or a description that will help apprehend them, that gets put out immediately. I have to believe that everything they know has been out there.
KEILAR: What do you think the likely break is here, that one of these suspects mentions to somebody something about this incident, about the killings of this police officer, and someone will give a tip on that?
FUENTES: Often that's the case. Somebody brags about this, about how they killed this officer, or one of the three gets arrested at a future date for something else, let's say, and tries to cut a deal and say, "Hey, I can tell you who killed the officer. You know, let's cut a deal."
So you can have many scenarios that would lead to the police getting the information.
Also, you have the intelligence effort by the police to go back over robbery, burglary, other offenses over the years, especially in Northern Illinois and in the Chicago metro area, where there might have been a gang of two whites and a black man that committed various crimes together.
So you might have a little bit of lead information about a group made up that way. But there's a lot of aspects that could lead to information leading to their arrest. KEILAR: Tom, why would police officials not disclose -- and
they've been asked -- if Officer Gliniewicz's gun was found at the scene? Why wouldn't they -- why wouldn't they answer that question?
FUENTES: I'm not sure, and I think that a question I have with that is what do you mean by at the scene? You know, he could have been overpowered by the three individuals, shot and killed with his own gun, and then they discarded it near the body, which could make it look like he shot himself with his own gun, so we don't know. Or was it found -- was he found dead and the gun found 50 yards away, so that he couldn't have moved it that far? We just don't know that. They haven't revealed that kind of detail.
They certainly will be able to know more about it if his gun was fired, and through the autopsy if he actually fired his gun and has gun pounder residue on his hand and has, you know, ballistic evidence, that the bullet in him matches his own gun, so that will be determined. If they determined it yet, we don't know.
KEILAR: Tom Fuentes, thanks so much. Great insight.
And next, speak English, that is Donald Trump's latest jab at Jeb Bush. what will Latino voters make of Trump's comment?
And growing outrage after amateur video appears to show deputies shooting a suspect who has his hands up. But does a second video offer new clues?
KEILAR: From Twitter tirades to Instagram ads, Donald Trump has made Jeb Bush the primary target of his blunt and brutal criticism, but Bush is fighting back, and he's hoping that branding Trump as a liberal will take a toll on the GOP frontrunner.
[17:20:06] For more on this, let's bring in CNN political reporter Sara Murray -- Sara.
SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Brianna, the heated battle is continuing today between Jeb Bush and Donald Trump as the rest of Republicans in the field struggle to regain their footing and the country's attention.
MURRAY (voice-over): Donald Trump continuing his attacks against Jeb Bush.
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (via phone): He's doing very poorly in the polls. He's a very low-energy kind of guy. And he had to do something.
MURRAY: Predicting Bush's latest jabs won't stick.
TRUMP: He's probably going to now stop, because it seems to be backfiring on him, based on the polls. JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is not a guy who is a
TRUMP: Bush going after the billionaire front-runner again today, posting an online quiz, painting Trump as a liberal, saying Trump supports tax hikes and single-payer healthcare, even needling him for being a germophobe.
Today, other Republicans piling on Trump.
SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think Donald Trump is really a fake conservative. Once people find out his positions, I think they're going to be sort of fleeing with their hair on fire. They're going to say, "Oh, my goodness, he's not really what he said he was. He's not really a conservative."
MURRAY: And fighting to regain momentum.
GOV. SCOTT WALKER (R-WI), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I used to run track, and to me the only time it was important when you were ahead was when you cross the finish line. I plan on being ahead when we cross the finish line in 2016.
MURRAY: A new "Washington Post"/ABC News poll showing warning signs for both Bush and Trump. Just 37 percent of Americans have a favorable view of Trump, while 38 percent view Bush favorably. And despite Trump's promise to within the Hispanic vote...
TRUMP: I think I'm going to win with Hispanics, and a lot of people sort of smile when I saw that, but actually, the people that live here, the Hispanics that are legal that came in through the long, hard process, they absolutely have a great feeling about me.
MURRAY: His latest numbers with Hispanics, abysmal; 82 percent view him negatively. While 43 percent of Hispanics say they view Bush favorably, he struggles with white voters.
On the Democratic side, Vice President Biden and Hillary Clinton are seen more favorably than their Republican counterparts. And while Biden might not be a candidate yet, his trip to Florida today fueling speculation that he could still jump in the race.
JOE BIDEN (D), VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Look at all the press you've attracted. Their -- their interest in community college has impressed me greatly. And I hope that's what they're going to write about. But...
MURRAY: Now we're also getting some new developments on the Republican side this afternoon. The RNC is circulating a loyalty pledge to Republican campaigns, asking candidates to rule out a third- party bid, a move that appears to be designed to force Donald Trump to give up the option of an independent run -- Brianna.
KEILAR: All right, Sara. Stand by for more analysis. We're going to bring in our experts. Next to Sara here, we have
CNN political commentator Dan Pfeiffer. He's a former senior adviser to President Obama. We have CNN political commentator S.E. Cupp. And CNN political commentator Ryan Lizza. He is Washington correspondent for "The New Yorker."
OK, so Ryan, in response to these comments that Jeb Bush made about Donald Trump recently, in Spanish, Trump tells Breitbart, "I like Jeb. He's a nice man, but he should really set the example by speaking English while in the United States." Your reaction to that?
RYAN LIZZA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: We -- this week, we have now entered the "kill Trump" phase of the campaign. Right? So Jeb Bush has now organized his campaign around taking Trump down. It's the first time we've seen that.
You see some of the elite Republican groups, especially the ones that are really nervous about Donald Trump's views on taxes and economic matters, they're going after him now. And so it's a totally different phase. It's no longer going to be Donald Trump out there attacking everyone and not really taking the brunt of attacks from the Republican establishment. And I think we'll see over the next month whether he is Herman Cain, like in 2000, who spent a month or two at the top of the polls and then nosedived, or if he's some kind of new phenomenon that has a lot more lasting power. Staying power.
KEILAR: If he's -- yes, if he's immune to these attacks.
OK. So speaking of the "kill Trump" period here with the Bush campaign, spokesman for Jeb Bush tweets in response, "As Donald Trump tries to kill the party, attacking any American who is bilingual, Jeb is attracting new conservatives." And there's this link to "The Washington Post" article. The headline's "Why Jeb Bush Could Be the GOP's Key to the Latino Vote."
But is that enough? You mentioned in your piece that he's struggling with some white voters.
MURRAY: Right. I think the problem for Jeb Bush is the core of the Republican Party is still going to be white voters. You need to do well with them; you need your base to turn out. But that's not all you need, and that's why we don't have a Republican in the White House right now. If you can't bring Hispanic voters in, then it's very difficult; it's basically impossible to win the White House.
And so I think it's very early, and it's promising for Jeb Bush that he's doing so well for Hispanics, but he will need to sort of gain the favor of the GOP base if he wants to be able to move beyond the primary and get to the general.
KEILAR: And I know, S.E., you -- you hear all of these Republicans saying he's not a true conservative, outside groups attacking Donald Trump, but you say make him point out he's not an outsider. That's what you say. You say saying he's not a conservative isn't enough.
[17:25:09] S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I don't think his supporters care.
Donald Trump has made it very clear he doesn't care about the future of the Republican Party. I'm sure that turns on a lot of his supporters, who also don't care about the establishment future.
I think I would -- I would instead point out that he's not antiestablishment. I mean, he just released a tax plan that could be Hillary's tax plan. You know, taxing the rich. I mean, this doesn't sound like a guy who's actually as antiestablishment as I think a lot of his supporters think that he is. I think that's where people like Jeb, and Rand, and Scott Walker and Rubio need to really make inroads.
KEILAR: There's a poll that we're seeing now, Dan, a new ABC/"Washington Post" poll, and it has Jeb Bush's favorability among Hispanic voters at 43 percent. It's better than his favorability among whites, as we mentioned.
Trump stands at 15 percent. But the question is, when Trump says things that are alienating Hispanic voters, obviously the hope for Democrats is that it bleeds across the entire party. Do you think that is what's happening, though?
DAN PFEIFFER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think that is going to do a -- Trump will do an amazing job with helping turn out Latino voters for Democrats, no question about that.
I do think that in the moment -- this immediate moment in time, Jeb Bush is benefiting a little bit from being the guy who is not as anti-immigrant as Donald Trump.
But to give you some perspective, Barack Obama's approval rating, as we came to the election in 2012, with Hispanic voters was upwards of 70 percent. So Jeb Bush, even if he were to keep these numbers, is going to have to do much better than that if he's going to make up the gap Republicans will need to get back into the White House.
LIZZA: It's very tricky, but today was the first time I thought, well, maybe Jeb Bush could turn all this around. He could turn around Donald Trump's toxicity for the Republican Party, and he could come out of this primary being the guy that defeated Trump, that defeated the sort of nativist right in the Republican Party. And he uses that as an argument. And this is assuming a lot, right?
But if -- whoever the candidate is that defeats Trump, and I still believe that someone will -- that Trump is not going to be the nominee -- but if you could do this tricky thing where, one, you have to prove to conservative that Trump is not actually conservative, but No. 2, you sort of defeated the anti-Hispanic voice in the party, that could be a successful formula for the Republicans.
KEILAR: All right, guys, you've got to hang around, because -- and get your Joe Biden hats on. Because that's where we're going next, after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK ) KEILAR: Vice President Joe Biden is once again stirring
speculation about the possibility of a run for the White House, and this time it's with a trip to Florida -- that is eyebrow raising -- where he'll flex his fundraising muscle as an event for Senate Democrats.
[17:32:12] And we are back now to discuss this with our political experts.
You have this travel to Florida, Pennsylvania. He's going to be on the Colbert show. Hmm, I wonder why? It's such a pivotal moment. What do you think? Will he or won't he? And should he?
CUPP: If I'm Hillary Clinton, I hope that he does. I know that sounds crazy, but I talked to a lot of Democrats who want more choices in the Democratic field. And if he doesn't get in, I think you are going to hear this recurring story throughout the primary of "Why isn't anyone else running?"
Now, Hillary doesn't want a coronation, but she also doesn't want to foster this "anyone but Clinton" kind of story line to haunt her all the way to the nomination.
LIZZA: What about Jim Webb?
CUPP: Oh, OK, OK.
CUPP: OK, sweetheart.
PFEIFFER: I will half agree on S.E. on this, which is I don't know -- I can't imagine that Hillary wants him to get in the race, but I think he should do what he thinks is best for him. It's a personal decision.
But the party -- the more competitive a primary you have, the stronger our nominee will be. Barack Obama was a way better nominee in 2008, better prepared for the debates and for taking on the attacks from McCain and Palin because of what he went through with Hillary Clinton. I think if she has a very competitive primary here, that will make -- and she is the nominee, that will make her stronger. If Joe Biden gets in, he will be stronger because of Hillary Clinton. Lincoln Chaffee will be stronger.
MURRAY: But I actually -- I think the fundraising event is really interesting, though. Because it's different than just going to a state and doing a community college, you know, speech or whatever. You are going and talking to the people that you would need to convince to bankroll your campaign. And it's smart to get in with those people early, especially if they're feeling a little uneasy about Hillary Clinton and her numbers, particularly on the trustworthiness.
LIZZA: Here's what's going to be very discouraging.
KEILAR: Real quick, final word.
LIZZA: There's not a single prominent elected official who is pining for Joe Biden to get into this race.
KEILAR: And we will -- let's -- that's actually a great point we're going to leave it on, I think, if that's OK. Ryan, thank you.
S.E., Dan and Sara, thank you guys.
Be sure to tune into CNN when Donald Trump faces off in the next round of Republican presidential debates on September 16, at 6 and 8 p.m. Eastern and Pacific. That is a mouthful there.
All right. Coming up, a string of successful airstrikes against top ISIS leaders has the U.S. military boasting about its drone campaign. We have new information on the role that the CIA is playing in targeting terrorists.
And then later, authorities say a new video is shedding light on this controversial shooting of a suspect during an encounter with police in San Antonio.
KEILAR [17:39:20]: U.S. now has eyes and ears tracking top ISIS leaders and is increasingly able to take them out. We have new information on what's behind the dramatic strikes that we've seen recently.
Chief national security correspondent Jim Sciutto has been digging into this.
What are you finding?
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brianna, the U.S. has had a remarkable string of successes against ISIS senior leadership in both Iraq and Syria in recent weeks. What changed?
I'm told that U.S. Intelligence has greatly improved in recent months, a combination of airborne surveillance, spies and tracking communications that has left ISIS leadership on edge.
SCIUTTO (voice-over): U.S. Intelligence on ISIS inside Syria and Iraq is greatly improving across the board, a U.S. official tells CNN. A combination of more human intelligence on the ground and surveillance aircraft in the air.
The result: a series of successful strikes again senior ISIS leadership. Junaid Hussein, the ISIS online mastermind and recruiter, killed in Raqqah, Syria, last week; Haji Mutazz, ISIS's second in command, killed outside Mosul two weeks ago. And a late-night raid killing Abu Sayyaf, a senior leader and financier for ISIS, capturing his wife and a treasure trove of information.
How is it happening? According to "The Washington Post," the CIA is significantly expanding its role in the drone campaign, identifying and locating senior ISIS leaders for strikes carried out by U.S. Special Operations command.
ROBERT BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY ANALYST: You have to look at the drone program is all we have right now. The Free Syrian Army doesn't exist.
They can track I.P. addresses. They can track all sorts of ways -- Wi-Fi, mobile Wi-Fi -- and run these people down.
SCIUTTO: The expansion of the drone program is based in part on growing concern among U.S. officials over the ISIS threat.
However, it runs counter to the administration's stated goal of reversing the militarization of the CIA, returning it to a solely intelligence role. An effort supported even by many Republicans.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: That's why they're called the intelligence agency. That's why we call the armed forces, the -- obviously, the people that are supposed to be carrying out military operations.
SCIUTTO: The balance the administration attempting to strike here is to tap the CIA's ability to identify targets but leave the strikes themselves to the military. The Pentagon says that that collaboration has existed for years.
But while drone strikes can eliminate individual leaders, they have yet, Brianna, to significantly alter the calculus on the ground, and as we know, the ground force that the U.S. has attempted to build inside Syria, this moderate opposition -- you're supposed to have 5,000 fighters by the end of this year -- it's gone nowhere. There are literally zero moderate opposition fighters on the ground, zero today (ph). So you are over-dependent, then, on drone strikes and other airstrikes.
KEILAR: It's pretty amazing; things are not where we expected them to be. Thanks so much, Jim Sciutto, for that report. Stay with us as I bring in Phil Mudd. He's our CNN counterterrorism analyst. He's also a former CIA official.
And to that point, how effective do you think the CIA will be in identifying these targets that Jim was talking about in his report?
PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Devastating. Simply devastating. If you look at the history of the counterterror campaign, travel areas of Pakistan, Somalia going into Yemen, now looking at the targeting in Iraq and Syria.
My metric is straightforward. When the adversary says that "This is destroying our capability to maintain leadership," an analyst like me sits up and listens. And over the course of time -- and we're seeing this now with these drone strikes now in Syria -- adversaries from al Qaeda to ISIS have been consistent. They can't stand these attacks, because they can't figure out where and when they're going to happen.
KEILAR: What do you think?
SCIUTTO: I think the difference -- and I wonder, and I'd like to ask you, because you've been in the middle of this. ISIS is different from al Qaeda, because al Qaeda didn't control large pieces of territory before. So when you kept, you know, the Zawahiris and the bin Ladens under wraps with these strikes and, you know, got some of them...
SCIUTTO: ... you know, that that significantly affected their operations.
But ISIS has this territory; they're still holding it in Iraq and Syria. They haven't been pushed back. Doesn't that decrease the importance, or rather the effect of killing senior leaders?
MUDD: Heck no. Let me adjust your thinking here, Jim.
There are two ways to think about this. Military typically, including the Iraqi military, are responsible for defeating a large adversary and controlling geography space; retaining and regaining those cities in the north and west of Baghdad.
Intelligence services, by contrast, aren't retaining space, holding territory. They're in the midst of what I call the triple "F": find, fix and finish a point target in a car, in an apartment building so the leadership of a terrorist organization can't plot an attack against New York City.
You're thinking of operations in traditional military terms: the military controls territory. I would say we're in the new world, and I call it the Game of Drones. This is the operations that devastate the leadership of organizations, even as they don't retake territory.
SCIUTTO: But isn't that the difference here, that it's not purely a terror operation there? The unique factor with ISIS is that it is -- it has elements of being a terror organization and a military organization, because they can hold territory. You know, they're holding towns and cities in Iraq, and they're holding off a major army in Iraq and a fighting force with the Kurds.
MUDD: Sure. But if you're in an intelligence position, that's not the way I see the world. The charge you get from the White House, the Americans -- and the American people, as an intelligence professional, not a military officer, is straightforward. Ensure that nobody directed by the leadership of ISIS reaches New York, Chicago, San Francisco and elsewhere.
If you're charged in the Pentagon to support the Iraqi military, you're saying help them retake cities. Baiji, for example, the oil refinery we saw.
So I see this and say the military can have their piece. Our job -- or was, I'm getting into the current phase here; I quick five years ago -- our job is to find, fix and finish the guys in the senior position, who want to direct operations against American cities.
KEILAR: All right, Phil and Jim, thank you guys so much.
MUDD: Thank you.
KEILAR: Coming up, the FBI is now investigating the shooting of a suspect during an encounter with police in Texas. We'll have the latest details.
We'll also have the latest on an intense manhunt following the killing of an Illinois police officer. Have the three suspects already left the state?
KEILAR: An amateur video that appears to show police officers shooting a suspect after he puts his hands up is attracting outrage and unanswered questions. And now the FBI is opening an investigation into the incident.
[17:50:01] We're also learning about a second video of the shooting, which was taken from a different angle, closer up, and may offer new clues.
CNN's Sara Sidner is live in San Antonio with the latest.
What are you hearing, Sara?
SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Brianna, we heard from the sheriff today. She went through a lot of the details but wouldn't say everything, of course. This is still an investigation that is fully under way, but she did say that indeed there is a second video, that she herself has seen it, and that at some point the suspect's hands do go up when he is shot, but she says she believes that he had a knife in one of those hands and that is shown on the video itself.
However, when we asked her where is that knife, did they find it at the scene, she was unable to answer that question, saying, I do not have that information. But she did say that the video is going to be sent somewhere so they can get a very close and detailed look at what happened. Here's what she said and where she said that video will be sent.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF SUSAN PAMERLEAU, BEXAR COUNTY, TEXAS: We've asked the Texas Department of Public Safety crime lab to review that with an effort to try to enlarge and to slow down the sequence of that so that we have a much better view of what happened and in what sequence.
(END VIDEO CLIP) SIDNER: Now Gilbert Flores was the suspect, he was shot and
killed by two deputies. Both of those deputies have been put on administrative leave.
We should tell you, we had just -- just now had a conversation with the family attorney who talked to us about it and he said, look, if the police department, if the sheriff's department has questions about this and can't see for themselves on the video whether or not he's holding that, he has a lot of questions about why that video needs to be enhanced, and he believes it should be released to the public right away -- Brianna.
KEILAR: Is there any sense from where you stand, Sara, that that's going to happen?
SIDNER: That's a really good question. And we asked that question to the sheriff. At this time they are not releasing any evidence. They didn't release the first video. That video was given to a local TV station and to CNN as well by the person who took that video. So it wasn't given to police first. This video was given to authorities first and they have not released any evidence.
The only time we're going to see that, Brianna, is when decision is made on this case. And that will be up to both the sheriff's office and the district attorney's office -- Brianna.
KEILAR: All right. Sarah Sidner for us in San Antonio, thank you so much for that report.
And I want to bring back former FBI assistant director, Tom Fuentes. He's a CNN law enforcement analyst.
So you just heard Sara's report, Tom. We now know that authorities say that the suspect was holding a knife when police approached him but they haven't released the video that shows this. How is this going to be analyzed?
TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I think what they're going to look at is what kind of a threat did he pose to those officers, if in fact he had a knife. How far away we see in the video -- the other video that's been released that the subject is kind of running around in the front yard. And when he runs around one of the vehicles, the police actually retreat. They step back a few feet because they know that normally if a subject has a knife, and the general training rule is 21 feet, that that's very easily closed.
And, you know, in this situation they're wondering if they're dealing with a mentally disturbed person that may be hard to reason with or de-escalate the situation with. If he's already attacked the woman in the house and the 18-day-old baby, and used that knife to injure them, you know, what's likely to happen out in that front yard.
So this is a very difficult situation. Yes, the video looks bad but, you know, can we just maybe wait until there are a few more facts that come out, and not try to try this case in the first few hours of the investigation in the public media. We need to see the second video, we need to know the totality of what those officers were facing at that time on the front yard.
KEILAR: Do you think they should release that video? Do you think they should release that video, Tom, real quick?
FUENTES: I don't think they have to release it. They need to investigate this case thoroughly. And people can wait. There's no urgency at this point.
KEILAR: OK. And I do want to ask you since you were -- real quick here, Tom. You were an assistant director at the FBI. What prompts the FBI to open a federal civil rights investigation on something like this?
FUENTES: Well, often it is the local U.S. attorney or Department of Justice or the police themselves. We don't know that it's specifically civil rights. Police themselves could have asked for the help of the FBI in investigating this and want to have an objective third party investigation, which the FBI would provide, and it will be very thorough.
So I think that -- and again, the FBI will want -- they're going to be more concerned with accuracy than speed of trying to resolve this.
KEILAR: All right. Tom Fuentes, thank you for your expertise on this.
Coming up, police widen their manhunt for three suspects in the killing of an Illinois officer. They're currently scanning surveillance video for possible clues. But are the suspects already out of the area?
[17:55:01] And then new tensions in Baltimore as a judge makes a key ruling in the case of six police officers charged in the death and custody of Freddie Gray.
KEILAR: Happening now, multi-state manhunt tonight. The search is broadening for three alleged cop killers who police say gunned down a veteran officer. Investigators are now reviewing surveillance video as new questions are being asked about what happened to that dead officer's gun and where the suspects may have gone.
Mano-a-mano. Donald Trump is ridiculing Jeb Bush for speaking Spanish saying he should speak English while he's in America. Well, Bush jabs back with a quiz game mocking Trump. The gloves off in the Republican presidential race. Can either candidate score a knockout?