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LEGAL VIEW WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

House Nominees; Carson's Debt Question; Murdoch Apologizes; Surviving Mass Shooting. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired October 8, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[12:00:00] KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: "AT THIS HOUR."

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: LEGAL VIEW with Ashleigh Banfield starts right now.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

We interrupt our national fixation on the presidential race for an election of a very different sort but for a post almost as important. As we speak, House Republicans are meeting in a closed door hearing room on Capitol Hill for a secret vote. It's for the man they want to be speaker of the House. That is a hugely powerful job in its own right and it is second in line to presidential succession behind only the vice president.

So you're probably wondering what the choices are and we'll line them up for you. Kevin McCarthy of California, the current House majority leader and so-called establishment pick to succeed John Boehner. There is Jason Chaffetz of Utah, there in the middle. And on the right, Daniel Webster of Florida, a former speaker of the house in Florida. And he is on the right and, guess what, he's favored now by the ultra conservatives who tormented John Boehner.

And these are my experts on the matter. CNN chief political correspondent Dana Bash and senior political report Manu Raju.

Dana, first to you. You've had a chance actually to catch some of those candidates, I guess we can call them candidates, a very short election, though. If you blinked, you missed it. Give me the rundown of the actual process you're in right now.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the process is, as you can probably see, people coming in behind me. We're right outside the door. This is going to be a secret ballot, Ashleigh, so we're not going to know who voted for whom in this first round.

And I say first round because this is, effectively, a nomination by the Republican Party for whom they want to be the speaker. The actual vote for House speaker isn't going to happen until it occurs on the House floor at the end of this month. But this is still, obviously, very critical because of all of the things you just discussed, of the discord within the Republican Party and the idea that a lot of Republicans are not so sure that Kevin McCartney, who is definitely the front-runner here, is the right person to take over for John Boehner since he has been his right-hand man.

I talked to Kevin McCarthy very briefly after he and others gave their pitches this morning. Listen to what happened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Mr. McCarthy, will you give a statement? How did it go?

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R), CALIFORNIA: It went very well, very well.

BASH: You're going to get the votes at 12:00?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: So, you know, he sounds confident. All he needs to get is 125 Republican votes in the secret ballot that's going to go on, that's going to start momentarily now. But the key question is whether or not, if he does get that, he's going to get 218, which we expect will be what's needed to get the majority of the full House at the end of October.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: So as people are filing by you, I'm assuming they're heading into the - I think it's the Ways and Means Committee room to hold this big, secret vote?

BASH: Yes. Let me - let me actually just - we'll turn the camera around just to kind of give you an inside look here.

BANFIELD: OK, great.

BASH: You're right, this is the Ways and Means Committee room. I'll try not to bump into any members as they're walking by. This is where they're holding the vote. It's actually - I'm not sure if it's on purpose or not. Probably not. It's just kind of a nice, big room, which is why they're using it. But it also happens to be where the person nominating Kevin McCarthy hangs his hat. It's Paul Ryan, who is the chair of this committee. He is somebody who's very well respected among pretty much all Republicans. He is going to be explaining why he does believe Kevin McCarthy should be the nominee to be speaker in there.

But there, of course, are others. You mentioned them earlier, Ashleigh. One is Daniel Webster. He is the favorite among the conservatives. The so-called House Freedom Caucus. He also gave a pitch this morning. I spoke to him after.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANIEL WEBSTER (R), FLORIDA: Well, I just said, look, when I was speaker of the Florida house, we were able to turn our numbers, polling numbers, right side up by taking up the most important issues first and then taking that pyramid of power that existed where a few people made all the decisions, push it down, spread it out so every member got a chance to be a player. When you do that, you buy in the membership and you can adjourn on time and you can take up the most important issues first and get your job done and it works and the public notices.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: So that was Daniel Webster. He, again, has the support of about 40 or so members in that so-called House Freedom Caucus. He wouldn't say whether or not if he does lose this nominating vote, which is going to occur momentarily, if he will then support Kevin McCarthy, assuming that he is the actual nominee. That is going to be the key question after today, whether or not McCarthy is going to be able to get those who didn't support him in this meeting later on in the month.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: To be a fly on the wall. Dana, I know this drives you crazy that you have to be on the outside of that door when they all head in there momentarily.

[12:05:00] BASH: It does.

BANFIELD: And they have - just so - just so our viewers understand, the candidates have already done their personal pitches. They got three minutes to do it. This is when they get their supporters to stand up and lobby for them and they only have a couple of minutes to do that, too, so this should be very exciting.

I'm going to scoot over, Dana. Let us know if you catch anybody on the way by.

And, Manu Raju, I know that you were able earlier - and, again, this was the earlier meeting where the candidates were allowed to do their own three-minute pitch to their friends and colleagues as to why they should be the leader, but you caught up with Jason Chaffetz. What did he tell you?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, Jason Chaffetz kind of knows where things are right now. He's not - does not have the support to become nominated to become the next speaker by his own party. Kevin McCarthy, by all accounts, does. We're going to be looking very closely at how close he gets to that magic 218 number.

Jason Chaffetz really stood - took a pretty significant blow to his candidacy when the House Freedom Caucus, that conservative group, came out and they supported Daniel Webster instead of him. He was supposed to be the guy who was aimed to bridge those conservatives with the more establishment type in the party. And I asked him about that. And here's what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JASON CHAFFETZ (R), UTAH: Have their support. But, again, I'm trying to bridge the gulf and the divide. And that's not just going to end today. There are - there is healing that needs to go on. There are new processes and things that we have to do to get this team even more unified than it's been in the past.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: So, what Chaffetz also said was that he will back the nominee after today's vote. That's a significant move. He plans to end his candidacy, not campaign for the job. The question is going to be whether some of those other folks who back Daniel Webster will turn around and also back the nominee. That's a question we're going to have to see if it's - how it's resolved in the next couple of weeks.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: And it's all up to 125 votes, as long as everybody shows up, because it's that simple majority of whomever actually is in the room.

All right, Manu Raju, thank you for that. And, Dana Bash, thank you for your reporting as well.

I want to take you back to the other race, the big, big race. Let's call this a teachable moment for Ben Carson. The top tier GOP presidential candidate owes much of his current popularity to his lack of political experience. But that did not seem to be an asset when he appeared yesterday on the show called "Marketplace." It is a radio program, and the talk turned to, well, go figure, some basic yet fundamental issues, marketplace type issues. I want you to listen to just part of the interview that was conducted by Kai Ryssdal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAI RYSSDAL (voice-over): As you know, Treasury Secretary Lew has come out in the last couple of days and said, we're going to run out of money, we're going to run out of borrowing authority on the 5th of November. Should the Congress then and the president not raise the debt limit? Should we default on our debt?

BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (voice-over): Let me put it this way. If I were the president, I would not sign an increase budget. Absolutely would not do it. They would have to find a place to cut.

RYSSDAL: So, to be - to be clear, it's increasing the debt limit, not the budget. But I want to make sure I understand you, you'd let the United States default rather than raise the debt limit?

CARSON: No, I would provide the kind of leadership that says, get on the stick, guys, and stop messing around and cut where you need to cut because we're not raising any spending limits period.

RYSSDAL: I'm going to try one more time, sir. This is debt that's already obligated. Would you not favor increasing the debt limit to pay the debts already incurred?

CARSON: What I'm saying is what we have to do is restructure the way that we create debt. I mean if we continue along this, where does it stop?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Hmm. I do want to tell you that Ben Carson is going to be a live guest of my colleague Wolf Blitzer on his program. And that is coming up in just over 40 minutes at the top of the hour. Do not miss that moment.

In the meantime, I want to bring in our Athena Jones, who's in Iowa today, who has just spoken with the Ben Carson camp.

How are they reacting to all of this?

ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Ashleigh.

That's right, after several hours of trying to get a response from Carson's campaign about this, my producer, Betsy Cline (ph), just spoke with one of his aids who said that, look, if you listen to the entire "Marketplace" interview, Dr. Carson demonstrates a clear understanding of all of the issues. He was talking about long-term concerns, trying to answer tough questions about the nation's fiscal future.

But certainly if you listen to that clip, it sounds as though Dr. Carson has some confusion about the difference between the debt limit and the budget. This is a mistake a lot of people make. He's arguing, you know, that budgets should be cut and that they shouldn't increase the debt limit. What you heard Ryssdal trying to explain that these are bills that are already coming due. These are - these are debts that have already been incurred. And if the debt limit isn't raised, we're talking about Social Security payments that don't get paid, Medicare reimbursement, bills to government contractors that don't get paid. So a whole slew of things. It certainly sounded like in that interview Caron didn't' grasp that concept.

[12:10:14] Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Well, we will certainly have further opportunities to ask him that. As I said, Wolf's going to have him live on the program at the top of the hour.

Athena Jones, thank you. Appreciate that. Good work.

And on a related note, one of Ben Carson's most prominent and powerful supporters is now apologizing for one very supportive tweet. It was Rupert Murdoch, the super wealthy, staunchly conservative media mogul, who tweeted out Ben and Candy Carson, terrific. What about a real black president who can properly address the racial divide? And much else." Well, that came late last night and now comes this morning. Here's the tweet. "Apologies! No offense meant. Personally find both men," we're presuming here Carson and President Obama, "charming."

And my next guests are equally as charming and they can't wait to weigh in on this. Bakari Sellers is a CNN contributor and former state representative in South Carolina, and Lenny McAllister is a conservative radio talk show host.

First to you, Bakari, reaction? BAKARI SELLERS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, yes, thank you for having me

today. And we're doing much better in South Carolina today. Thank you all for all your prayers as we make it through this.

BANFIELD: Oh, I'm glad to hear that. And thank you for updating us.

SELLERS: But the audacity - the audacity of Rupert Murdoch, or anyone else for that matter, to be able to think that they can authenticate my blackness or the president's blackness or anyone else's blackness is beyond absurd. And I'm just glad that Rupert Murdoch decided to tell all of us that the 90 percent of African-American voters who voted for Barack Obama, he decided to tell us some seven years too late that we actually voted for somebody who wasn't really black.

BANFIELD: All right. So, you know, I think there is a lot of reaction like yours out there, Bakari. And, Lenny, as a conservative, I want to ask you about the fallout for colleagues, conservative colleagues in the race, who perhaps don't share in that kind of reaction. There's been a bit of radio silence. So if they don't weigh in, does that matter to them or to their supporters?

LENNY MCALLISTER, HOST, "GET RIGHT WITH LENNY MCALLISTER": It does matter and I think this is an opportunity to show that what we've been saying for several years is true, that defining blackness as being somebody that lives in an urban area, that's going to vote Democrat anywhere from 95 percent to 100 percent of the time, that they're looking for big government is not necessarily defining blackness. I agree with Bakari, the definition of blackness should be across the diversity of the United States of America, including conservative and liberal, including Republican and Democrat. This is something that we, as black conservatives, have been saying for quite some time.

Now with that said, I think Bakari's overlooking the fact that many people in the barber shops in 2015 are saying that the election of this African-American president has been disappointing. It has not been inspiring for black people like they thought it would be in 2009 and it hasn't been as beneficial for African-Americans over the course of this presidency. So there is something to be said about the disappointment. But in regards to how we define blackness, I agree 100 percent, blackness is diverse, it's not just monolithic and it's not just single in its thinking.

BANFIELD: And just quickly, comments from both of you, literally ten seconds, is this a blip? Is this actually going to get traction?

SELLERS: I don't think it's going to get any traction. I think it was an asinine statement and we have asinine and ignorant statements that are made by surrogates and candidates alike. So I don't think it's going to get any traction whatsoever.

BANFIELD: Lenny, what do you think?

MCALLISTER: It's - it's - it's more than a - it's more than a blip. It's an undercurrent. This is what people think. It's just, we don't say it very often. It will come back up again before November 2016.

BANFIELD: Bakari Sellers and Lenny McAllister, great to have both of you. Thank you.

And, Bakari, our thoughts to you and your fellow South Carolinians as you go through the flooding disaster. We are thinking of you and we wish you the best.

SELLERS: Please keep us in your prayers.

BANFIELD: Thanks, gentlemen. Always.

SELLERS: Thank you.

BANFIELD: Thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Coming up, as I mentioned before, Ben Carson is going to be live right here on CNN in the next hour. He's been kind enough to join my colleague, Wolf Blitzer. It starts at the top of the hour, 1:00. Do not miss it. He is in the news today at the top of the news today.

So he's been raising some eyebrows for the comments on a campus shooting in Oregon as well. He said that if he were in a shooting situation, he would have rushed the gunman, although some people feel his comments said the victims should have rushed the gunman. Come up next, hear the reaction from a young man who was a victim and was in that classroom, the moment the shooter walked in and began firing and executing. Plus, see what the experts say you should do if you ever find yourself in that kind of terrifying circumstance.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:18:50] BANFIELD: We have breaking news. One of the heroes in that French train attack, the young man named Spencer Stone, he was apparently stabbed badly early this morning. Spencer Stone was injured while out with friends near a bar in downtown Sacramento. That's him there in the middle of a hand shake.

Police do say that his injuries do not appear to be life threatening. Fellow hero Alek Skarlatos sent out this tweet just a short time ago saying, quote, "everybody send prayers out to the Stone family today," end quote. And by the way, Skarlatos was once a student at Umpqua Community College where that shooting took place in Oregon last week. He was not anywhere near there because he has currently been invited to appear on the program "Dancing with the Stars."

You have heard all about the uproar, I'm sure, regarding Ben Carson's remarks about a gun circumstance in the wake of the Oregon shooting, but you may not have heard his comments about being held at gunpoint himself. Ben Carson told Karen Hunter on Sirius XM Radio that he once had a gun held on him. He says it happened at a Popeye's restaurant in Baltimore and here's what he said in terms of how he reacted.

[12:20:12] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The guy comes in, puts the gun in my ribs and I - I just said, I believe that you want the guy behind the counter. He thought I was - he thought I was -

HOST: That's what you - in that calm way?

CARSON: In that calm way.

HOST: In that calm way, OK.

CARSON: He said, oh, OK, over there.

HOST: And - oh, so you just miss - redirected him to -

CARSON: I redirected him.

HOST: OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Well, that was long ago and it was certainly contrary to what Dr. Carson told "Fox and Friends" that he would do were he confronted by a mass shooter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARSON: I would not just stand there and let them shoot me. I would say, hey, guys, everybody attack him. He may shoot me, but he can't get us all.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take action.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You sort of chuckled at the end to these victims.

CARSON: Well, I was chuckling at the silly reporters.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What did you mean when you said, I would not just stand there?

CARSON: I want to plant in people's minds what to do in a situation like this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you say what you would do?

CARSON: I would ask everybody to attack the gunman, because he can only shoot one of us at a time.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As a candidate, you know, do you need to get better at saying what you mean?

CARSON: I don't think so.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: By the way, there was one young man who rushed the gunman and he was shot seven times. He survived and he's actually been released from the hospital. That just happening today.

There was someone else in that room as well, an 18-year-old, who the Oregon shooter referred to as, quote, "the lucky one," because that 18-year-old was spared the murders. And now that 18-year-old is criticizing Dr. Carson's after the fact advice. The shooter gave that 18-year-old, Mathew Downing, an envelope and said that he should give it to the police and for that he would live. Mathew was then forced to go to the back of the classroom and watch as nine of his classmates were systematically murdered one by one.

And in response to Dr. Carson's comments, Mathew told CNN, and I'll quote him, "I'm fairly upset that he said that. Nobody could truly understand what actions they would take like that in a situation unless they lived it."

Now Mathew relayed to his mother, Summer Smith, everything that happened to him and to the others in that classroom and how absolutely paralyzed he felt facing what he thought was going to be certain death.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUMMER SMITH, MATHEW DOWNING'S MOTHER: Matthew said that he froze. He didn't make a single move. He was afraid to look away. That if he made anything - did anything to make the shooter notice him, that he would be shot. So he just sat there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Through none of us can predict accurately how we would feel, what we would think or what we would do in that kind of a circumstance, but there are certain steps that you can take to save your life. The experts have it. Here's a hint, what Ben Carson said to do should actually be the very last resort. And for that we turn to CNN's Randi Kaye.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As disturbing as this looks, it's only a simulation, a training video designed to teach people how to respond to an active shooter threat. No plan and experts say your chances of surviving drop dramatically.

KAYE (on camera): A training program known as "ALICE" was developed by a Dallas-Ft. Worth police officer whose wife was an elementary school principal. "ALICE" is the first training program of its kind that teaches proactive survival strategies. "ALICE" stands for alert, lockdown, inform, counter, evacuate.

KAYE (voice-over): The worst thing potential victims can do is wait to act.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's got a gun, y'all. He's got a gun out there.

KAYE: Once you are aware of the shooter, alert others.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is this 911? Yes, the - the shooter's, I think, outside. Everybody's screaming.

KAYE: Then go into lockdown. As more information comes in, inform police. But what if the shooter is already inside your classroom, like in Oregon? Experts suggest trying to negotiate with him. If that doesn't work, then hiding or playing dead. Only as a last resort should you physically confront a shooter. Throw anything you can at him, chairs, books, whatever it is to distract him. Disruptions that create noise and movement can hurt the shooter's accuracy. That can be a lifesaver. Countering the suspect is all about survival. And, finally, if you can, evacuate.

Randi Kaye, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: I want to go right out to Dana Bash on Capitol Hill. You've got some breaking news about the vote that's going on, Dana?

[12:25:02] BASH: This is not anything that I ever thought I was going to report to you, but we just got word that this meeting is over. Kevin McCarthy just announced that he is not going to run for speaker. He just surprised everybody and said he is dropping out of the race. I have a congressman with me right now. You were just in there. What happened?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kevin McCarthy, just like John Boehner did, put the country and the Congress and the conference before his own interests. It was a very honorable thing to do. I think he recognized and shared with the conference that he was afraid his candidacy might further divide the caucus and further divide the party across the country. And so he did the honorable thing and announced that he would not be seeking election as speaker of the House.

BASH: Are you shocked?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Personally, I am not, because I have been saying for a week now that I don't believe Kevin McCarthy is the next speaker of the House. I don't see how he had a path to 218 votes on the House floor. What he did was a very honorable thing today.

BASH: Now, congressman, you are a part of the Freedom Caucus, is that -

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, absolutely not. I am not. I am part of what I call a governing caucus. I believe in keeping the government open and actually tackling the real problems we have. I understand the Freedom Caucus was supporting Dan Webster and not Kevin McCarthy. I was in the same position, but for very different reason, not based on an ideological litmus test but based on keeping the government open. And I believe what we have failed to do in the last year from border security and immigration, to an AUMF, to a transportation bill is a reflection of leadership and I wanted new leadership.

BASH: Was everybody in there stunned? Can you given the reaction?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were people who had - who had a hard time believing what he did. But, again, I don't think you should be too surprised if you realize the road to 218 over the next two weeks was going to be very difficult. And if he had been nominated with just 51 percent of the vote in here, and then spent two weeks trying to build a majority of the 218 on the House floor, he never could have gotten there, and I think he realized that.

BASH: Who do you think steps up now? You know, up until now, it just didn't seem that there was anybody who could get the 218.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is remarkably similar to the Gingrich- Livingston-Hastert evolution. The way we ended up with Speaker Hastert was the result of a breakdown within the caucus. We have seen this coming. And I think now it's a matter of this party to come together and finally identify behind closed doors how to get to 218 votes. I'm supporting Dan Webster. I believe Dan Webster is a former Florida speaker of the house, is capable of governing this caucus and I would support Dan Webster.

BASH: Thank you, sir. Appreciate it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks. Thank you.

BASH: Thank you so much.

This is unbelievable. Ashleigh, hang on one second.

Mr. -

BANFIELD: Let's just listen in if we can.

BASH: Stay with me.

REP. PETER KING (R), NEW YORK: (INAUDIBLE). I think he's - I'm not the one at this time.

(INAUDIBLE).

KING: Our party needs (ph) reunited and he's not the one.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you have any insights into why?

KING: No. I don't think anybody did. No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were you stunned?

KING: Yes, most people weren't even sure what he said. The sound system is not good and they had to -

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Move it out of the way. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. You want to talk (INAUDIBLE) -

BASH: Stay with us. Stay with us, Ashleigh.

Congressman, we're live on CNN. We don't want to block everybody, if you could come over here. So can you just give me the reaction - can you give me the reaction to what happened in the meeting when he said that?

KING: Absolutely. People were absolutely stunned.

BASH: I mean, you were behind him. Are you stunned? KING: Yes, totally stunned. No idea it was coming. No one did. And no

one was sure they actually heard what he said. I was severely, totally stunned.

BASH: Ashleigh, you can see here, talk about surprise, absolute surprise. And you can see there's a bit of chaos right now. Going in just a couple hours ago, Ashleigh, Kevin McCarthy himself said to me when he walked by after he gave his final pitch that he had the votes, and he was confident he had the votes, not just in here but on the floor. And in just a couple of hours, that changed dramatically. Something obviously had to happen and we are, as you can see, trying to get to the bottom of it real time with you live here.

BANFIELD: It is just so dramatic. And as you were just speaking, Dana, Speaker Boehner has just made an announcement that the election is postponed. So I think he might have been taken by surprise as well.

I'm going to ask you a question, but before I do that, Dana, I'm going to ask our control room if they can rerack that sound bite that you collected just this morning as Kevin McCarthy, you know, was sort of championing his potential win. It's just remarkable. Do we got that ready to go, guys? We don't have it yet. I'm going to get that ready.

Dana, this is so unbelievable. I'm trying to think if this is - go ahead, Dana. Go ahead.

BASH: You know, I'm just doing this real time. Forgive me, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: I understand.

BASH: We're just going to roll with this. Congressman Charlie Dent of Pennsylvania, what happened?

REP. CHARLIE DENT (R), PENNSYLVANIA: Well, the speaker election has been postponed. Kevin McCarthy withdrew from the race and basically said he didn't think he could unify the conference at this time. So he essentially withdrew.

BASH: Just a couple of hours ago he was saying to you all in the meeting this morning, said to us, to me as he walked by after the meeting when he made his final pitch, that he feels confident that he has the votes. Do you think that something changed with the number of votes he was going to get or did something else happen?

[12:29:55] DENT: No, I believe what - what simply happened was that Kevin McCarthy had a strong majority of support in the conference here today. I don't believe he had 218 votes. Now the question would have been, had Kevin been the nominee of the conference, gone to the floor, and then not to secure 218, that, obviously, would have been very humiliating and