Return to Transcripts main page


Lamar Odom Fighting for His Life; Trump, Carson to Boycott Debate Unless Hosts Agree to Demands. Aired 10-11p ET.

Aired October 15, 2015 - 22:00   ET



[22:00:00] DON LEMON, CNN TONIGHT SHOW HOST: You're looking live right now, at Sunrise Hospital in Las Vegas where former NBA star Lamar Odom is fighting for his life tonight.

This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.

Reality star Khloe Kardashian, Odom's estranged wife by his side tonight as the Kardashian's ask for prayers after the two-time NBA champ was found unconscious at the Nevada brothel.

In just a moment, I'm going to talk to Odom's childhood friend, a former Lakers teammate Metta World Peace. There he is right there.

Plus, we're going to speak to his coach, a former coach who has been texting with Khloe Kardashian from the hospital.

Also this, debate club, the threat from Donald Trump and Ben Carson that could upset this entire race.

We're going to begin with Lamar Odom's fight for life. And joining me now is Metta World Peace, a forward for the Los Angeles Lakers who is a friend and former teammate of Lamar Odom. How are you doing?

METTA WORLD PEACE, LOS ANGELES LAKERS FORWARD: I'm doing OK. You know, under these circumstances, a little unfortunate. But, you know, on behalf of Southside Queens, you know, Queens brace right where his always friends back home, Artie Cox, you know, we support Lamar, like his real true friends.

My brother's over there in the hospital across the street. He can't get in the hospital, but he's there just wanting to be as close to Lamar as possible.

LEMON: You said you're a childhood friend, you're from Queens. As you said, you guys grew up together playing ball.


LEMON: Speak to me, talk to me more, Metta, about those early days with Lamar.

METTA WORLD PEACE: I love Lamar. I mean, when I first saw Lamar, he was a little shorter than me and then I remember him just shooting past me. Then we joined the same teams. And then at about 11 years, 12 years old, or something like that we joined Riverside Church, Brooklyn Queens Express. And we all got drafted at the same time year, me, Lamar, and Elton Brand, we were on the same team for quite some time. We won the place that went to the NBA.


LEMON: That's it follow up there. Let me tell the viewers. This is the photo up there. You posted this throwback photo up there on Instagram.


LEMON: Are you're a, your team the Riverside Church Hawks. And beside you there is Lamar, now NBA veteran Elton Brand also on the team.


LEMON: Happy days, right?

METTA WORLD PEACE: Yes. I mean, happy day, Lamar is a true friend, a better friend than me. Lamar, he's very outgoing, you know, very loving and caring and he owed me a workout. I see Lamar a couple months ago, and I was supposed to start training him.

And you know, unfortunately, I didn't get a chance to train him. So, I can't wait till he get better because he owe me a workout.

LEMON: Yes. So, tell me about this. I was reading an article tonight, just a couple of minutes ago, and it said that, "Odom, who had met Khloe Kardashian at an August party in 2009 thrown for his teammate, Ron Artest. He met her at a party thrown for you, Ron Artest, who is you but you're Metta World Peace now.

METTA WORLD PEACE: Yes. They met at my party. Khloe was nice enough to hosted my party. And then they met and got married seven days later. You know, I would never suggest anybody get married seven days later. But they seemed pretty happy.

I don't know many of the Kardashians. I speak to Kris a little bit. You know, sometimes we text. Khloe is my ex-wife, who is one of the realest people I know, she likes Khloe.

So, you know, under these circumstances I'm kind of bitter towards everyone, you know, right now. Just because one of my good friends is in the hospital right now. But...


LEMON: Why are you bitter towards everybody?

METTA WORLD PEACE: Just because my friend -- my friend's in the hospital right now, so right now I feel very, very blank towards everyone, but I'm hearing some good things, you know, about Khloe. So, you know, we're trying to keep a close eye on that, as close as we can, but Khloe's, his kids is there.

You know, I'm very grateful that people are there in his corner. At the same time very, very bitter right now because my buddy's in the hospital.

LEMON: If you listen to -- if you watched the show, the Kardashian Show -- and I've spoken to people who know Khloe and I've spoken to, you know, some former coaches who also know Khloe and they say that she, I mean, she really loved this man. And that one coach told me tonight or earlier that she was the best thing that ever happened to him.

METTA WORLD PEACE: Well, you know, Lamar grew up with a lot of unfortunate circumstances in the neighborhoods that we grew up with in Queens, New Orleans, Far Rockaway, L.A. Compton, you got a lot of broken families, father not involved, mother, they separated. And Lamar he grew up in the same circumstances.

[22:04:54] So, yes, under those circumstances, yes, Khloe, probably was a very good thing that happened for Lamar. The TV show wasn't, L.A. probably wasn't, Hollywood probably wasn't. Khloe seems like, you know, she stick to be and clean on a black, she seems like, you know, she's a cool person.

At the same time, I'm still blank towards that, towards a lot of different things. And the way they got divorced and it was all on the TV networks, I'm very blank and bitter towards that. But right now I'm trying to stay positive and say all the right things as possible because I wouldn't want to say anything that Lamar wouldn't approve of right now.

LEMON: OK. So, let's talk then, Metta. Because people, you know, many people, not everyone, they seem to want to demonize people when they have issues, when they have addiction issues.


LEMON: And I think, you know, I've said it, I always say one addiction is no different than the other.


LEMON: A cigarette addiction is no different than a drug addiction, a food addiction is no different than a drug addiction.


LEMON: And it doesn't make you a bad person. It just means that you have a sickness. So, no one should demonize Lamar. He was ill.


LEMON: So, did you know about his issue when you played with him? Did you discuss it?

METTA WORLD PEACE: I'm a little bit annoyed that I didn't know that he was going through these issues. I knew, I heard little things, little whispers but I didn't know exactly until, you know, a couple days ago that he was going through these things while I was his teammate.

And I'm a little bit disappointed with that. I wish I would have, you know, have talked to him about it. After we left the Lakers, I heard a lot of different things that was upsetting in the newspapers that had to do with drugs and Lamar.

So, you know, and then I didn't get no text back from Lamar, so I was a little bit upset about that. But then when I've seen him, I wanted to reach out and I didn't get a text back, but it's OK.

You know, sometimes people are addicted to different things, it does not make them a bad person at all whatsoever. It means that you got to reach out more, you got to give a little bit more help, a family got reach out more, you get a little more help. And that addiction that could be anything, that illness could be anything.

LEMON: I have never really heard anyone say a bad word about Lamar, that he is the nicest person you ever want to meet.


LEMON: Again, if you watch the Kardashian, both of the shows, his, Khloe and Lamar and then Keeping up with the Kardashians, he just seemed like a really just a sweet guy.

METTA WORLD PEACE: He is. He's very tough. He's very sweet. Me and Lamar, we grew up playing basketball. And we had a couple fights, I remember, but we always, you know, made up. And we had a lot of wars on the court.

And Lamar is one of my best friends. Elton Brand and a lot of the other guys you see in that picture that didn't make to the NBA, you know, we were all very tight. And I'm sure they're all praying for Lamar right now.

LEMON: So, what do you think his -- what do you think his demons were? Because when you think about the circumstances, right?


LEMON: And to me, when you think about the circumstances of him at a brothel, which is legal in Nevada.


LEMON: With a bunch of women, it speaks more of maybe loneliness. And I'm sure you know what happened to deal with addiction.


LEMON: But what did you -- what do you make of his demons? What happened to cause that? METTA WORLD PEACE: I don't want to speak directly for Lamar. So, I

want to speak in general right now, so people know that I'm not speaking for Lamar. Sometimes you can feel lonely at times and people experiment with different things, they try to cope different ways. And I had issues when I was depressed early on in my NBA career. Had a lot of angry issues. And it took a while to address these issues. It didn't happen overnight.

You know, it took me years and years of therapy, counseling, just to, you know, be comfortable in my own skin. Some people, you know, they're not comfortable with themselves and they, you know, experiment with different things, you know, maybe drugs. And at that time is when we need to help, you know, people like that.

LEMON: What do you want to say to Lamar?

METTA WORLD PEACE: Oh, man, I just -- I don't even know what to say right now. I just can't wait to see him and, you know, hopefully he does well. I'm so happy to have my brothers there right now right, you know, right across the street at the hotel. I mean, I don't even know what to say. It's really hard. There's no words.

LEMON: Metta, you take care. Again, I thank you for coming on. I know it's tough for you. I really appreciate it.

METTA WORLD PEACE: All right. Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you. Lamar Odom has been a star ever since his days playing basketball at the University of Rhode Island. Leading the Rams there to their first conference title.

Jim Harrick was his coach and he joins me now. Jim, I'm so sorry for what you're going through now. I know that you recruited Lamar at the University of Rhode Island and you took him under your wing. He was having some trouble even back then. What did you see in him that made you want to help him?

[22:09:57] JIM HARRICK, Lamar Odom's FORMER COACH: Well, first of all, he's a great, great human being. And that you can see the outpouring from the NBA players who have come to his side right there. He's just a terrific young guy. He's compassionate and friendly and nice and everybody loves Lamar Odom.

But he's had some things in his life that if you have to go back, you know, his mother passed away when he was 12 years old, and you know, you live your life without a mother and his father was not around so much. So, that was very difficult for Lamar.

LEMON: Yes, and it's also been -- he has talked about it and it's out there that his dad had some issues as well when it comes to addiction and, of course, as you said, his mom died when he was 12 years old. That's a lot to deal with.

And he had been dealing with a lot lately in his life. You kept up your relationship, you know, even years later. Lamar would still spend time at your home. How did you think he was coping with all of this as an adult?

HARRICK: Well, you know, I'd been worried about Lamar. But he called me about two weeks ago, and we talked for a while. And, you know, he had just finished working out, he was in good spirit, he was up, he was positive, he was excited.

You know, we talked, I'm making a comeback, I told him I'd work him out a little bit and he wanted to do that. And so, I was feeling good about Lamar at that moment. He had just moved to Las Vegas from Los Angeles and he wanted to tell me and explain why and everything.

But I thought he was in a good place at that moment a couple weeks ago. But Lamar's had a lot of death in his life and it's tragic, you know. He lost his 6-month-old son to a crib suffocation and...

LEMON: Right.

HARRICK: ... his grandmother died and...

LEMON: He had some friends died recently as well.

HARRICK: So, other things -- yes.

LEMON: So, did you two talk openly about his addiction? Did you discuss it?

HARRICK: Well, he kind of hides from that just a little bit. You know, I'm not sure if he's in denial or not. You know, I don't know. I don't know. I've never seen him -- I've never seen him that way so I really don't know.

All I know is stories I hear. You know, I only believe half of those, some I don't believe at all. So.

LEMON: Did you ask him about it? Did you ever ask him about his, you know, what you have read or if he explain?

HARRICK: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Absolutely.

LEMON: What did you ask him?

HARRICK: I asked him about it. His answer was I'm OK, coach, don't worry about me, I'm fine, I'm fine. So, you know, he's responsible.

LEMON: Yes. And it sounds like you're not doing so well right now because...

HARRICK: Well, let me explain. We've got, you know, I'm texting Khloe back and forth and his best man at his wedding Jerry De Gregorio, was my assistant at Rhode Island. He's over there in Vegas now at the hospital.

From this morning until now, I'll give you one word and the word is hopeful. We're all a lot more hopeful now than we probably were little bit earlier this morning. So, hopeful is the word I'm going to use. LEMON: Yes. You said you've been texting Khloe. And I mean, she

really been by his side. Even through a divorce, they still remain friends, they still remain in communication. She really was a -- had a big influence in his life. She was a force.

HARRICK: Khloe is a rock. She's a very solid young lady, and I just love her. She was by his side. I think to me it was the best thing that ever happened to Lamar. He had trouble explaining it to me because it was a short romance. But after I got to know her, I went to the wedding and had dinner with them several times, I just fell in love with her.

I think she's a solid young lady. The divorce is not final, so I don't know what's going to happen. But I would only, again, be hopeful for the best for Lamar.

LEMON: If you have the chance to talk to him again and we hope that you do, what are you going to say to him?

HARRICK: Well, all I'm going to tell him, first of all, I love him and I want him to do well and come back from this and beat this. Maybe you're down 15 in the second half but you got -- you never, ever give up. Many, many people have come back from things like this. So, I'm just, again, I'll use the word hopeful.

LEMON: You see the tabloids and you hear what people say about, you know, people about Lamar -- about people who have addiction issues. But I think that in these situations that people need empathy because I think all addictions are the same.

I think that a food addiction is no different than a drug addiction, an alcohol addiction or cigarette addiction. It's all the same. Eventually it will probably kill you.

So, what do you say to people about Lamar who, you know, may only know him through the tabloids, from what you know about him?

HARRICK: Yes. Sometimes the tabloids can be been vicious, too. They maybe been saying a lot of things about Lamar that's hurtful really and I wish that wouldn't happen. But I would tell him that , you know, he's a great young person and we just want to pray for him, and hope for him, and stand by his side and do anything we can to help him. I'll be right there for him.

[22:15:05] LEMON: Jim Harrick, you're a great guy. Thanks for coming on and talk about Lamar Odom. Thank you so much.

HARRICK: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

LEMON: When we come right back, what another teammate says about Lamar Odom. Plus, from the NBA to reality TV. Odom became part of the Kardashian family when he married Khloe. But was reality TV stardom on the stake for him?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON: Lamar Odom fighting for his life tonight after being found unconscious in a Nevada brothel. Employees told 911 dispatchers he used cocaine on his day at the brothel on Saturday. This hardly the first celebrity to struggle with allege substance abuse.

I want to bring in now Nischelle Turner, our CNN contributor and Entertainment Tonight host, addiction expert, Cali Estes, who has worked with the NBA, with NBA players and other athletes for more than 20 years now, and Joe Smith, Lamar Odom's former Lakers teammate.

I'm so happy to have all of you here to talk about this evening. Michelle, I'm going to start with you because just heard from his former coach.


LEMON: So, tell us what he's been texting. He says he's been texting to Khloe and there is more hope for Lamar today than yesterday. What are you hearing from your sources about that?

TURNER: You know, that's interesting because I have heard that from a couple of people today, that they are hopeful, that they've heard a couple of good things.

[22:19:56] There is also was a report that Lamar briefly fluttered his eyes and that Kim Kardashian believes that he squeezed her hand at some point during the last couple of days.

So, there is a little hope -- little bit of hope. We did hear that he may be doing a little bit better today than the first day. We did also confirmed that that first night they believe Lamar had a heart attack, they believed he may have had at least one stroke, so he really was touch and go.

But apparently, he's the fighter that everyone says he is, and he is really fighting for his life. So, who knows what's going to happen now, Don?

LEMON: Joe, you were on the Lakers with him. What was your experience with Lamar?

JOE SMITH, LAMAR ODOM'S FORMER LAKERS TEAMMATE: I mean, I had a great experience with Lamar. I came halfway through the season, I got traded from the New jersey Nets. Lamar, he welcomed me with open arms. He was actually my seat mate on an airplane when we traveled. We kind of talk about anything and everything. He's a fun guy to be around and a guy I enjoyed to play with.

LEMON: Were you aware of any issues, were you aware of any addictions, or any demons or any problems that he had?

SMITH: Don, I had no clue. I had no idea. He's a great athlete, he has great talent and I had no idea what was going on with him off the court.

LEMON: Cali, that's interesting that many people around him say that and it's probably not an unusual story, I had no idea, I had no idea.

CALI ESTES, THE ADDICTIONS COACH FOUNDER: Right. And that's the thing. With addiction you can really hide it. And a lot of people the closest to you have no idea what's going on. But those of us in the industry can see it from a mile away.

And when you look at the track record from the sex addiction to the drug addiction to the suspension to the prostitution bust, we see it coming. But those closest to him never actually see it coming and then they can hide it very, very well.

LEMON: The weight loss, you know, the dark eyes, disappears for hours on end. Like all of the signs are there. But I think do people, Cali, do they not see it or do they not want to see it?

ESTES: It's kind of both. As a family member you don't want to believe it's happening. You're in denial. This couldn't possibly be happening. And they come up with really good excuses. I'm tired, I have a cold, I'm overworked, et cetera, et cetera.

And we start to feed into that, we start to actually believe what we're told because the alternative is just horrifying. And you don't want to believe that your loved one is in the throes of an addiction and could actually be that bad because you don't know what to do.


ESTES: You don't know how to fix it. And reaching out to a therapist or a doctor is even more confusing.

LEMON: You know, I hear the NBA has a really good program when it comes to dea6ling with addiction. But then one wonders then what happened to Lamar.

SMITH: They have a great program.


ESTES: They have a physician's network.

LEMON: Yes. Go ahead, Joe. And then Cali.

SMITH: I'm sorry. Yes, there's a great program for drug addiction with the NBA. And every year they try and get players whose dealing with situations like this to break their self in so they can get the help and give them the help that they need. But if they don't -- at the end of the day if they don't themselves in, then they don't know as well.

LEMON: Yes. I imagine they're probably concerned about their careers and their reputation and many people don't want to go in and the addiction gets worse, right?

SMITH: Correct.

LEMON: So, Cali, tell us about this program. I mean, is it effective? ESTES: It is. It's very effective. There's a lot of resources for the

players, retired and active. They just have to utilize the resources. We can give someone in active addiction all the resources in the world but if they don't want to utilize us, there's not much we can do.


ESTES: So, that type of program is excellent. They just have to agree to it and buckle down and work through it with us.

LEMON: Nischelle, let's talk about this because the coach that I spoke to said that Lamar, a couple weeks ago, he spoke to him, he was doing well. But there have been reports that the owner of the brothel has said as well, that last night, on his last night Lamar became upset because he saw one of the episodes of "Keeping up with the Kardashians" over the weekend. Do you anything about that?

TURNER: You know we -- what we've heard reports of that that Lamar, when he went to the Bunny Ranch that he was in good spirit but on Sunday he got an upsetting phone call.

We cannot confirm that that phone call was in fact, about the episode that re-aired of "Keeping up with the Kardashian." And that episode kind of showed the things that he and Khloe was going through and that Lamar wasn't happy with the way that he was portrayed. That is one of the stories out there. We don't know that for sure.

But what we do know is that throughout the partying, something went wrong. Whether that was because of the phone call and he started spiraling, that we really don't know, Don.

And I think it's almost unfair to speculate what happened, especially because of the outcome. Whatever happened was bad and now he's fighting for his life.

LEMON: Yes. I saw today Wendy Williams who admits on television that she had a history with drugs. People were speculating whether or not it was the Kardashian show, the reality show that caused him to do that. And she said no amount of fame, and no amount of money makes you put something up your nose or take a drug. It is your addiction that does that.


[22:25:04] TURNER: Absolutely. And also the women that were working there reportedly on the 911 tape said that he brought cocaine in on Saturday. So, if that were the case and that was already going on before the phone call, you just don't know what the sequence of events were when he was -- up until when he was found.

LEMON: Nischelle, Cali, and Joe, thank you. I really appreciate it.

SMITH: Thank you.

ESTES: Thank you. LEMON: When we come right back, Donald Trump and Ben Carson

threatening to boycott the next republican debate. We're going to find out why, that's next.


LEMON: This is really big political news tonight. GOP front-runners Donald Trump and Ben Carson say they won't show up for the next debate on CNBC, October 28th, unless the hosts agree to their demands.

Demands that includes cutting the length of the debate and including opening and closing statements.

Let's discuss this now. Armstrong Williams, business manager for Dr. Ben Carson.

Thank you. I know this is late for you and I appreciate it.

[00:05:02] ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, DR. BEN CARSON BUSINESS MANAGER: Everyone who knows me knows it's late.

LEMON: I appreciate you coming in. Because you're up. He tells me he's in the gym by 4.30 a.m. OK. Here's what your campaign and the Trump campaign wrote to CNBC, OK?

"To be clear, neither of our campaigns, agree to either the length you propose or your ban on opening or closing statements. In fact, neither of our campaigns were even consulted. Neither of those conditions are acceptable. Neither Mr. Trump or Dr. Carson will participate in your debate if it is longer than 120 minutes including commercials and does not include opening and closing statements."

Have you heard CNBC or the RNC yet?

WILLIAMS: Well, of course, with full disclosure. I'm not with the campaign.


WILLIAMS: But I'm Dr. Carson's business manager. Well, our senior strategist it broke over was on the telephone with CNBC and the RNC a couple of days ago.

You know, it's interesting. It's much deeper than that. If you watched and you were there, the democratic debate, they were asked adult questions about policy. They did not get into the trivial attacks, in- your-face style trivial stuff that really doesn't matter in terms of policies and the real issues that Americans want to hear about.

And we saw in a headline in the New York Times finally the adults show us how a debate...


LEMON: But does that have to do with the people who are running or the moderators? Because I think Jake asked very substantive questions. I think the Fox News people asked very substantive questions.

WILLIAMS: It's a different style. If you look at the -- your colleague Jake Tapper the way he asked those questions at the beginning it was just -- you know, look. But that's not your issue. That's not CNN, that's the CNBC.


LEMON: I think...

WILLIAMS: That reflects the RNC.

LEMON: Right.

WILLIAMS: Deborah Wasserman show fought for her brand. She's fought for the style, she's fought for the line of questions and how her brand would be portrayed on that stage with CNN a couple of days ago. He didn't...

LEMON: Reince Priebus is not doing that?

WILLIAMS: No. Inside, no matter what we want to say, but I'll say, no. The RNC is not fighting hard enough to protect that ban. So, we looked like adults, we looked like professionals, we looked like we're like serious in the kind of questions is that they're being asked.

So, there are a lot of things that all of a sudden when Ed Brookover was talking, so, well, we had no input on this, we were not brought to the table, and we've got to change this. We're not going for anything over two hours and there will be an opening and a closing.

I just spoke with Ed Brookover before coming on you show and he gave me the green light that it's all going to work out.

LEMON: Ok. So, you think it's going to happen.


LEMON: You think you're going to have opening and closing statements and it's not going to be longer than two hours.

WILLIAMS: Brookever's word is as good as gold. He's the guy who negotiates for the campaign. He's pretty assured us that it's going to work out.

LEMON: Do you think that also, when you talked about substance, and again, I must reiterate, I think that, I actually think the Fox people did really well questioning. And I think my colleague, Jake Tapper did really well.

WILLIAMS: It's the style.

LEMON: You can -- look, here's the thing. Do you think there are too many people up there to get substantive answers, enough substantive answers? Maybe it's time for some of the people to just realize this is never going to happen for me. WILLIAMS: That is a fair point. OK? But the issue is not with the

number of people on the stage. It's how they're portrayed, the questions that you're asked, the styles of the questions. I mean, listen, I watched the entire democratic debate.

It was all about policy, nothing personal, no personal attacks, not what he said, she said, how do you respond to that? It was really a very sophisticated, very regal and noble debate and highbrow.

LEMON: We will take that.


LEMON: I think CNN did a great job and Anderson Cooper as well. Let's turn now to the race. OK? Because he is now -- you're his business manager, Dr. Carson in a virtual tie with Donald Trump in first place. How does he feeling about that?

WILLIAMS: Well, you know, listen, it's like a horse race. You know, you can be ahead this week, and at of the back of the pack next week. Dr. Carson has a lot to be really thankful for. You now, his high favorability rating is incredibly high. People trust him. His brand is a very strong, trustworthy brand.

And the other amazing thing is that, there's still almost half of the country who still doesn't know who Dr. Carson is.

LEMON: Ok. So, and he's doing very well. You said, he's still raising money. So, the question now is he's now on this book tour, right, which he is devoting time to.

If you're on a -- if you're on that momentum, some people thought he was suspending his campaign. You're like I texted you and you were like, no, indeed that is not happening.

So, he's on a book tour, then why devote your energy to a book tour instead of just devoting it to this if you're -- at the momentum is in your favor and you could possibly be the republican nominee?

WILLIAMS: Well, as far as I'm concerned and I know the campaign is always concerned about SEC and not crossing the barriers. There's no difference, Don, because when you're on a book tour, and you're on with the national mainstream media, you can't control what they ask.

They're going to ask a question for 30 seconds about the book, they make sure they'll cover the book. But all the questions are about the campaign and policy.

[22:35:04] When he's on the road he's still interacting with voters, he's still on the phone with his campaign; he's still on the phone with his policy people. So, not much is change.

LEMON: But no suspension?

WILLIAMS: But no suspension. Oh, definitely not. Are you kidding me? He's really strong man. LEMON: Thank you.

WILLIAMS: It's good to see you in your house.


LEMON: It's good to see you, too. Thank you very much.

WILLIAMS: Yes, thank you.

LEMON: Up next. Breaking news on Joe Biden. Reports tonight that he is personally calling key strategists in battle ground states. Is he going to run? More on that next.


LEMON: So, when it comes to raising money on the campaign trail, Ben Carson is the clear winner among republicans, raising more than $20 million in the third quarter.

Let's discuss now. Republican strategist Rick Wilson is here, Robert Costa, a national political reporter for The Washington Post, the Washington Post is here as well, democratic strategist, Kevin Cate here.

Gentlemen, thank you. So, Kevin, we've been hearing -- we're going to know soon, we're going to know this weekend, maybe we'll know next week, we're going to know this.

So, I want to start with some breaking news bow because CNN is learning that Vice President Joe Biden will likely decide whether he's going to run within the next three days. He was asked about it today. Listen.


[22:40:05] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you made your decision yet?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can't hear you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you made your decision yet? Is there still an opening for you in the race, sir?

JOE BIDEN, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: I'm here to greet President Park. We'll talk to you all about that.


LEMON: All right. Kevin, clearly he's having a little bit of fun there and he isn't too concern about any timelines. You say that he's already made a strategic error by waiting this long?

KEVIN CATE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Yes, I think so. And maybe we need to get one of those CNN shock clocks up for Biden his time. But what I think has happened here is a strategic error because if he would announce before that debate, it wouldn't have been a slight to Secretary Clinton.

But it seems calculated to avoided after the debate and maybe around this Benghazi hearing, which we know is a witch hunt that confirmed by a couple of more republicans, I guess today.

So, I think what happened is the shock clock has run out and everybody likes Joe Biden and the folks helping him are nice enough and they want to do the right thing and think he would make a great president. But the time is up. Hillary Clinton looked poised and strong and she's the candidate to beat right now.

LEMON: Did you realize you said Biden his time? That's a headline right there. So, Rick, you know, let's talk about campaign fundraising now. Jeb Bush breaks in $13.4 million during the third quarter, coming in second after Ben Carson brought $20 million.

That's a lot of dough. So, Bush, I mean, he's raising into money but it's not translating to poll numbers. If you don't include Trump, who raised $3.9 million in unsolicited donations, are fund-raisers numbers are better indication of how candidates are doing?

RICK WILSON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: This, you know, they seem a little more disconnected from their status in the field. Obviously, there is not really correlation with Jeb Bush and his numbers versus where he is in the national polling right now obviously.

One thing I will throw out there is we haven't seen a lot of the cost of doing business with this -- with the fund-raising so far. Ben Carson raised $20 million but it looks like an awful lot of that was direct mail fund-raising.

So, we're not sure what the cost ratio and the burn rate built into that is. Jeb's will be a lot lower because he's doing lot of direct donor contact stuff. But, you know, the cash on hand numbers put these guys at a fairly even footing, all except for Donald Trump, who may or may not be able to write a, you know, check with many zeros.

But, you know, right now it's the performances and the degree to which people are standing out in the field that's driving their numbers. And so, you know, Dr. Carson's done well with that. He has become the national direct fund-raising brand.


WILSON: Because he's a well-like guy. And so, it's a -- we're going to have an unsettled another quarter.

LEMON: All right. Let's talk about the burn rate. Because, Robert, maybe, I mean, maybe Donald Trump's burn rate may be lower, correct me if I'm wrong. Because he doesn't appear to be spending that much or doing that much, you know, as far as advertising on television like ads.

He's famously claiming that he's self-financing his campaign. The reports show that he spent $1.9 million of his own money since launching this campaign. That's a lot of money but not necessarily a lot for four months of

campaigning. So, put this into context for us. How atypical is all of this?

ROBERT COSTA, THE WASHINGTON POST NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER: It's atypical but it also part of Trump's strategy. I've sat down with him and his advisers, I said map out what you're going to do with money over the next five to six months.

And they say we're going to wait, wait perhaps till early next year when the money could really be helpful on the airwaves, and be willing to spend $10 to 20 million of Trump's own money at that time.

And in the meantime, don't spend too much. Remember, he's a businessman. He doesn't want to spend money if he doesn't have to.

LEMON: So, by these numbers, then, Robert, has he spent more of other people's money than his own money at this point? Because he said, again, he was self-financing?

COSTA: He's got a lot of small dollar donations, about five million. He's spent about $5 million. As you said, also spent one million out of his pocket.

He's not running a large operation. When I was at Trump Tower, Don, only about 12 people were in the fifth floor headquarters. He's relying on a grassroots network in Iowa, South Carolina, and New Hampshire. Those small dollar donors, those people who are going to be activist for him come January and February.

LEMON: All right. Cate, Kevin Cate.

CATE: I think what...

LEMON: Go ahead.

CATE: ... I think what he's relying on here, though, Don, is he started his campaign spending other people's money, just like he started his business career, spending other people's money, mainly his daddy's.

LEMON: OK. Well, here's a question for you. We -- did you, Kevin, were you able to hear the discussion I had with Armstrong Williams earlier, where they talked about not getting into the campaign -- not getting into the next debate that they would be upset about it. Do you think...


CATE: I did. I heard lots of compliments for Debbie Wasserman's show which is nice refreshing tone from Ben Carson.

LEMON: But do you think the RNC and CNBC should agree? Should or should not agree, should they call their bluff? CATE: Oh, it's silly. I mean, the debate is going to happen. There's

no question about it. There's too much entertainment value. Donald Trump knows that he's going to generate interest.

[22:45:01] Who knows about Ben Carson? I mean, this is a guy who is smart enough to separate conjoined twins but not smart enough to separate fact from fiction when it comes to climate change or some of these issues that are important to the American people.

So, who the hell knows what's going on with Ben Carson? I heard he's going on a book tour after spending $11 million trying to raise money.

COSTA: Well, there is something that really digs also the debate.

LEMON: I got to go, so, you got to get in fast, Robert.

COSTA: Trump and Carson want to have leverage. They also really -- the RNC isn't controlling these debates. The television network is. That's a point of frustration.

LEMON: All right. Thank you, Kevin. Thank you, Robert. Thank you, Rick. I appreciate it. See you guys.

COSTA: Thank you.

LEMON: And coming up, Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel speaks out about his city's police and gets himself in some hot water.


LEMON: Chicago Mayor, Rahm Emanuel, no stranger to controversy, but what he says about police has a lot of people up in arms.

In a meeting with Attorney General, Loretta Lynch last week, Mayor Emanuel said, quote, "We have allowed our police department to get fetal and it is having a direct consequence." He went on to say, "They don't want to be a news story themselves. They don't want their career ended early and it's having an impact." And the mayor is not backing down now. Here's what he said on Monday.


[22:50:00] RAHM EMANUEL, CHICAGO MAYOR: Officers themselves are telling me about how the news over the last 15 months, have impacted their instincts, do they stop or do they keep driving? When I stop here, is it going to be my career on the line?


LEMON: Well, joining me now is Mark O'Mara, CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney, and Cedric Alexander, CNN law enforcement analyst and public safety director into Cab County, Georgia.

Thank you, gentlemen. Cedric, to you first, is the mayor right? Is crime bad because police are standing down? CEDRIC ALEXANDER, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I think it's the

mayor's observation based on the city he's in there and officers clearly he's talking to in Chicago. We all know, Don, that across this country police departments right now are feeling somewhat a pause, merely because of the kind of the state of where policing is and how it's being perceived by a lot of members in their community.

But let me say this, the officers that are going out there every day, they may be a little weary about what's going on, but I have yet to see, and I have an opportunity to move around the country.

I've yet to see any of them that are not going out and giving 100 percent every day. But that does not preclude the fact, however, that there may be some departments out there, you can't speak to all 18,000 of them, that may feel a little bit more intense about this issue than others.

LEMON: Also, then what explains if then if a mayor -- if a democratic mayor of a city is saying this, because this is usually something you hear from a more conservative mayor or official. The democratic mayor is saying he's hearing from police officers that they are not being proactive. I mean, Mark, I think that's a pretty damning assessment.

MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it is but I think it's inevitable and it's undeniable. There's no question there are cops who are trying to do a good job in a very stressful situation, but they know now that every micro decision that they're making is going to be reviewed in the cold light of day, and I think they're all going to be quite hesitant.

We're seeing it. We've seen it in Baltimore after that, after Gray shooting, we saw -- on death. We saw after the Garner event, Eric Garner in New York.

And unfortunately, it is inevitable and I do think eventually it will make for a better policing department around the country but there's no question that they are hesitating.

The problem with it is that now are we going to see an increase in crime because the criminal element on noticing the hesitation or noticing the lack of involvement and that's yet to be seen, but I think that wave is coming.

LEMON: We always talk about crime in Chicago that crime is high. They're saying that it is down. But yet, and still it is high. They've had a recent -- a wave recently.

But here's what the mayor. He calls this specifically a YouTube effect. He says that you think others in your profession where people -- can you think of other professions where people grab their phones as soon as they are approached?

That's a concern from him. But because someone is scrutinized or there's a possibility that someone may be videotaped, that's not an excuse to stop doing your job, Cedric. ALEXANDER: No, it's not. And we have to remember that and officers

remember that that as well, too, but does it create a little pause? Absolutely it does. But we also have to remember a lot of this has come into play within the last year or so.

We're seeing more video; we are seeing people out in the community videoing police officers. They're aware of it. They have to be alert of their surroundings. They're human beings. They're going to be cautious. But at the same time, too, does it create some pause with them? Does this create this hesitation that Mark is referring to?

Yes, it does. But at the same time as well, too, I am more than confident and feel for certain that they're still going to do their jobs. And in light of everything that's going on, yes, they're very aware of it, yes, it creates some pause and, yes, they may be a little hesitant.

But I'm going to tell you, what I tell the men and women in my department every day, you may feel the sense of hesitation. But remember, that you were trained for this job, remember, you need to do the things you have to do every day to protect the citizens and to protect yourself and that is paramount. But they are human beings and we have to recognize that.

LEMON: Mark, according to the Chicago Sun Times, there were 60 murders just in the month of September. Could there be any other reasons for this level of violence? And because some are wondering maybe the mayor is looking for some sort of rationale because of the spike of crime in the city.

O'MARA: He could try to use it as an excuse. And we don't have enough statistics to recognize whether or not that is an aberration, if that's a change. We can't say directly because that's what happened.

But we do know, for example, that body cameras work. They reduce use of violence events; they reduce complaints of use of violence events. So, what we're going through now is a recalibration of how cops are going to act.

And whenever you recalibrate, whenever we do something new, if we put cameras in operating tables, doctors would have to act differently. If you had a camera on me in my office every day that I was working, I would have to work slower.

[22:55:03] I couldn't secondhand this, I couldn't do it quicker, I couldn't be somewhat sarcastic or something. So, they're being watched now, they know they're being watched, and they're going to have to be more careful about it.

My only concern is that we have to give cops a little bit of leeway when we throw this new spotlight on them because they are still doing a very difficult job under very difficult circumstances...


O'MARA: ... and this YouTube effect does have a negative effect. ALEXANDER: That's correct.

LEMON: That will have to be the last word. Mark and Cedric, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

ALEXANDER: Thank you, Don. I appreciate it.

LEMON: We'll be right back.


LEMON: We appreciate you joining us here tonight on CNN Tonight. Of course, we'll be right back here tomorrow night. Remember, we're on at 9 o'clock on Fridays, 9 p.m. Eastern. So, make sure you tune in. I'll see you right back here tomorrow.

[22:59:58] Thanks for watching. AC360 starts in just a moment.