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Trump On The campaign Trail; Jeb Bush: Trump 'Pathetic'; Lamar Odom Conscious; Shatter Image; Who Won The Debate?; Ebony Magazine Cover Sparks Outrage. Aired 9-10p ET.

Aired October 16, 2015 - 21:00   ET



GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: A lot of people are going to Indiana, to Wisconsin and Michigan to get lottery tickets.

COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: All right, well Gary thanks very much. That does it for us.

"CNN Tonight" with Don Lemon, starts right now.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Donald Trump on the campaign trail tonight speaking out as only he can.


DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When I win, when I win, when I win, we are going to make America great again, better than ever before.


LEMON: This is "CNN Tonight." I'm Don Lemon and that's not all. Listen to Trump on the offensive today on Bloomberg T.V.


TRUMP: When you talk about George Bush, and then say what you want, the World Trade Center came down during his time.


LEMON: Jeb Bush firing back calling Trump pathetic. Also, stunning news about Lamar Odom's condition, the ex NBA star opens his eyes and says hi to his estranged wife Khloe Kardashian, three days after he is found unconscious in Nevada brothel. Is it the miracle that Kardashians have been praying for?

And the shattered image of the Cosby Show, this "Ebony" Magazine cover has a lot of people up in arms tonight. But does Cosby downfall erase everything his show once stood for?

We'll begin now with Donald Trump tonight, his campaign rally that just wrapped up in Massachusetts. The 10 billion-dollar candidate not holding back as usual, I want you to listen to what he says about some of his rivals.


TRUMP: Bobby Jindal. I mean, you look at, that's Alfred E. Newman. Do have heard about Alfred E. Newman? "Mad Magazine"? Bobby Jindal, I swear, he looks just like him. It's true. Think about that, right? And that's true? The guy has zero.

Pataki, he couldn't be elected dogcatcher. He's got zero.

Lindsey Graham comes after me. Who nice guy and then comes after me. A month ago, goes from five to zero so far everybody that's come after me has gone down, right? Isn't that amazing?

Why do they keep going? There is something I don't understand. If I was one of them, I would crawl quietly out. I'd probably tweet. I've decided to get out of the race. I wouldn't have a news conference. Now it's true. I tweet, I decided, I'm going to get out of the race. And then, I'd sneak out to someplace with my wife and just go away.

They have zero. Zero and now they will go in the child stage. You know the child stage, they call it the "Children's Stage". That's for the debate. That's an incredible thing.


LEMON: He's on a roll there. Joining me now to talk about it is Bob Beckel, political analyst and author of "I Should Be Dead: My Life Surviving Politics, T.V., and Addiction " also, Larry Sabato, Director of the University of Virginia Center for Politics and CNN presidential historian Douglas Brinkley is here, as well. Hello, gentlemen, happy Friday.

Mr. Beckel, Donald Trump on the attack again as you can see there. This time it's about George Bush and 9/11. Listen to what he told Bloomberg.


TRUMP: When you talk about George Bush, say what you want, the World Trade Center came down during his time. If you look...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hold on, you can't blame George Bush for that.

TRUMP: He was president, OK. Whether do blame him or don't blame him but he was president. The World Trade Center came down during his reign.


LEMON: Bob, what is behind this comment, do you think?

BOB BECKEL, POLITICAL ANALYST: I don't know. Listen, nothing about Trump makes sense to me and defies political gravity I've ever seen. But it's like when he attacked John McCain as not being a war hero. I mean, is it true that there was a lot of information that maybe Bush should have known about but I mean, that's just crazy.

And why he's going after the Pataki and Jindal? I mean, these guys aren't going to go anywhere. Why are you wasting your time doing that?

LEMON: But, let's stick with -- let's stick with Bush now because Jeb Bush is response on Twitter. Here it is, Bob. He says, "How pathetic for Donald Trump to criticize a president for 9/11. We were attacked and my brother kept us safe."

How does this play out? Because a lot of people thought Jeb Bush is best moment in that CNN was when he defended his brother's handling of that day?

BECKEL: I think it's a mistake in Trump's part to go after Bush on 9/11. I thinks, it's -- look, it's a sad memory for a lot of people in this country, one not to be revisited and blamed on an American president.

LEMON: Larry, Donald Trump is a political brawler by his admission. He is sitting on top of the polls because he's willing to throw punches. This will probably not hurt him, do you think?

LARRY SABATO, CENTER FOR POLITICS, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: I doubt, I doubt it. Nothing is let the air out of his balloon so far. But, you know, the word inappropriate is probably too mild. He's needling Bush. He enjoys needling Jeb Bush. And knows if he insults George W. Bush, he will get at Jeb Bush.

But, he also needs to remember that while George W. Bush is not popular with the general population. And that's an understatement, especially with Democrats and many independents.

[21:05:03] He is actually become popular again with Republicans and after all, they are the ones who vote in Iowa and New Hampshire and Republican contest. So, I think probably, he'll want to move on and insult somebody else tomorrow.

LEMON: Douglas Brinkley, I want you to listen to this. This is Ben Carson reacting tonight.


BEN CARSON, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think he said he was -- it happened on his watch but did he actually -- but did he say that he was blaming him for it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you don't think that he was...

CARSON: I didn't hear the statement but I would be surprised if he blamed him for it. That would makes no sense.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You don't think George Bush has any responsibility for the attacks on 9/11?

CARSON: I think it's ridiculous to suggest he's responsible. (END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: What do you think of that, Douglas?

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, I think Donald Trump was totally wrong for starters to have said such a ridiculous thing. I mean, do we blame James Madison for the burning of Washington. Do you blame FDR for Pearl Harbor? It's very babyish.

But I think he was trying to do needle job and here you getting Jeb Bush riled. And what's most interesting what you just played is that you're seeing Ben Carson, I think, coasting up to Donald Trump.

If you combine their two voter polls together meaning that Trump- Carson ticket for example, they probably would be able to pull things off. And I've noticed that Trump starting to be kinder to Ben Carson and really only big public feud was about faith and that came and went. So, you know, they are in cahoots in some ways together as the official outsiders.

LEMON: So, you think comments like that, are you think they're deliberate and it's not just what comes up, you know, what's up, comes out?

BRINKLEY: Well, I think for Donald Trump that's definitely deliberate because it starts discussion of how bad George W. Bush foreign policy was overall. You know, it raises questions, do you want another Bush in the White House. You know, Jeb's sign doesn't have Bush at the end of it. It's Jeb with exclamation point. And Trump sees that as a weakness on Jeb Bush is part and so he's looking to exploit it, looking to talk about it.

But there is kind of jerk factor with Donald Trump here, right? I mean, to beat up as you pointed out people with zero in the polls and to mock them and belittle them it. I think in the end, Trump is insulting American intelligence.

LEMON: Bob, Hillary Clinton talked about Donald Trump today in an exclusive interview with our Jake Tapper. Here it is.


HILLLARY CLINTON, (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He has brought his oversized personality and his reality television experience to the highest level of American politics and seems to be getting a very positive response among a large part of the Republican Electorate.

So that's up to the Republicans. They have to decide if that will be their nominee or not. I have called him out and some of the things that he just said which I thought were uncalled for. Some of the insults and attacks that he's made on immigrants, on women and it's just unacceptable what he, you know, let be said about the president.

So, you know, I'm going to continue to criticize him for going beyond the bounds of what I think is appropriate for anybody running for president. (END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Bob, how do you think Hillary Clinton would handle Donald Trump in the general election and vice versa if they are the nominees?

BECKEL: Well, I think she's going to handle if, if in fact he's a nominee which I doubt. But if assume he is, I think she's going to do what she did at that debate last week which is to do a lot of substance, a lot of policy, a lot of knowledge.

You know, she is not out of her depth in any area of government or policy. And Trump is on foreign policy, Trump is barely in the kiddie pool. So, I just -- I think she'll beat him. She'll beat him up hard on what his positions are if you can figure out what they are? And so far, Trump has been able to avoid coming up with anything close to a policy except for on taxes and that one was not too terribly creative.

LEMON: Larry, how do you think that -- how do you think they would handle each other if they are indeed the nominee?

SABATO: Well, Hillary Clinton or for that matter, the entire hierarchy of the Democratic Party believe and hope that Donald Trump is the nominee. Now, if Hillary Clinton or another Democrat loses to Donald Trump, it just means it was written in the stars in the heavens that no Democrat could win in 2016. That's what it will take to elect Donald Trump.

But unless it is an overwhelmingly Republican year like say 1980 when Ronald Reagan beat President Carter, I would think that Clinton or Vice President Biden would probably defeat Trump easily, not just defeat him but defeat him easily.

LEMON: Doug, can we talk about Joe Biden because we have been waiting to see what's going to happen.

[21:10:02] Will he get in this race? Is it too late for him? And my thing is, is this -- when you hear people out in public very rarely do you hear people talking Joe Biden. You hear a lot of people in Washington D.C., is this is a made construct in Washington where the general public really does not have that much interest in a Joe Biden running for president?

BRINKLEY: Well, Joe Biden's beloved. He has a lot of fans and he could make a big difference if he gets in but his hourglass is running out.

I think the fact that Hillary Clinton had such an astoundingly good last couple weeks, she was great on "Saturday night live" to Kevin McCarthy gift of saying Benghazi was about driving Hillary Clinton's poll numbers down and then her stellar performance in Las Vegas is made Biden's entry seem kind of belated.

But he might. He vice president, he get Barack Obama's e-mail list which he's co-owner from running the last two campaigns with him and labor unions like him. He could get into Iowa before the Jackson Jefferson day dinner there in late Iowa. And I think by the end of October, he would have to get in at this point too because you've got to get all the paperwork done for the State of Georgia.

So we will know for sure, Don, about Biden I would say in the next 10 to 14 days.

LEMON: All right everyone stick around.

When we come right back, the conventional wisdom says that Hillary Clinton won this week's debate. But there may be more to it.

You're going to -- you'll be able to watch the whole debate tonight at 10:00 P.M. And coming up, we'll tell you what to look out for.



LEMON: New polls show the democratic race tightening in New Hampshire. But does it tell us anything about who really won the debate? Back now Bob Beckel, Larry Sabato and Douglas Brinkley.

Have you guys been reading online and in the papers and everywhere, no, Hillary won, no, Bernie won, no, there is a conspiracy.

So Bob Beckel, right after the debate, so many people were quick to say Hillary crushed it and social media blew up saying Bernie won. Who do you think won that debate?

BECKEL: I don't think there is any question she did. I'm not surprised social media blew up. I mean who is Bernie's base?

Base is people who are the kind of people that would use social media, a lot of young people. And so I'm not surprised that they would react that way but let's face it in every kind of metric that we have about debates she did very, very well.

In fact, the problem with her, I'd watch the debate dozens of times and I'll tell you, if I were her, I would take a tape of the debate, put it on her plane with her and watch it over and over and over again and realize that she can in fact come across a substantive serious as well as be likable which was the challenge for her that night and she did it.

LEMON: Larry, you know, people on social media say, look at the focus groups, look at the surveys, Bernie comes out on top. What do the surveys really mean and how do we typically measure who won?

SABATO: Well, you can do it in a number of ways, Don.

We had a couple of random sample surveys that really do at least within a certain margin of error represent the public view. And they have rated Hillary Clinton the winner by a large margin and that was certainly my judgment, as well. As far as Bernie Sanders is concerned, you know, you can also judge him a winner in the sense that I think he pleased his supporters. He may not have broadened his base.

I do think that we didn't give him adequate credit for doing an extraordinary civil thing, which was turning to Hillary Clinton and basically neutralizing her biggest problem -- the e-mail situation.

So it was nice to see a candidate do something like that. We always say we want candidates to do that. And then when somebody does, many of the pundits criticize Sanders for it because he wasn't hitting her hard enough. So I say good for you, Bernie, you did well, too.

LEMON: OK. Douglas, what do you think? Because I understand that you think this debate might end up being historic. What do you mean by that?

BRINKLEY: I think it's very historic for Hillary Clinton for reason has said a little bit to go. I mean Las Vegas will be part of her biography. Now she was somebody who had a very run the last few months.

In the last week, recollected herself and everybody who watch the debate and look at the numbers he had on CNN broke records. Anybody who watched Hillary Clinton were reminded what they liked about her.

It was a remarkable performance and Bernie Sanders did well. She needed somebody to square off with and he's fundraising money on it right now. He's kind of given democratic socialism a new uplift in American society.

But I think it's about if Hillary Clinton becomes the first woman president in the United States, people will look back at that debate in Las Vegas and say that's when the hemorrhaging of her campaign stopped.

LEMON: Yes. So you think that -- do you think she won.

Okay listen, I want you guys to respond to this. Because I'm just getting the in. This is from Donald Trump responding to Jeb Bush, all right, on twitter.

He said, "At Jeb Bush, at the debate you said your brother kept us safe. I wanted to be nice and did not mention the WTC, the World Trade Center came down during his watch. 9/11. Bob Beckel?

BECKEL: I don't -- you know, I'll tell you, I consider myself somewhat of an expert on presidential politics but I do not understand that.

As Larry pointed out, George W. Bush is popular again with Republicans.

I mean, you look at his numbers, favorable, unfavorable in Iowa is quite high. And if I were Donald Trump, I could think of a lot more people to attack than George W. Bush and to keep it going is from my standpoint, makes absolutely no sense but again, nothing Trump does makes any sense to me.

So maybe he knows something I don't know.

LEMON: Larry, how does this help him? I know he has personal animosity it appears for Jeb Bush but how does this help Donald Trump?

SABATO: Well I'm with Bob.

To me, it makes no great sense although it's his M.O., it's Donald Trump's M.O. to double down on anything he says that's really controversial especially the statements that backfire because his base, which is about a quarter of the Republican electorate, at least as currently measured by surveys.

[21:20:03] his base loves it. They love it that he will flaunt conventional manners and circumstances and do exactly what he want and say exactly what he wants.

LEMON: Is this going to make a difference now that he is responding? Douglas Brinkley, do you think we're going to continue to see on and on now back and forth between Jeb Bush and Donald Trump over 9/11?

BRINKLEY: For maybe for a few more days and then there will be another Trump is on people have to deal with.

If I were Jeb Bush, I'd be kind of livid about this to politicize 9/11 in this kind of way but I think it the sense what we guys were just saying. It helps Donald Trump in this one sense so that he's unhinged and people assume to enjoy that about him and he's trying to say the Obama years weren't just bad. The Bush years were all plan every way too. And in that way even though he says he's not a populist he's trying to be a populist candidate saying attacks on both of the previous presidents.

BECKEL: You know, can I say one other quick think?

LEMON: Yeah, sure.

BECKEL: You know, Donald Trump has not gone up in the polls. He's gone slightly down. His base is his base and that's all he's got and if he can't hold on to that, then he's in real trouble but right now, that 25 percent represents a small sliver of the American Electorate.

LEMON: Gentlemen, thank you. Have a great weekend.

BECKEL: Thank you.


LEMON: You can see Jake Tapper's full exclusive interview with Hillary Clinton on CNN State of the Union, Sunday at 9:00 A.M. and then again at noon eastern time.

Good news on the Lamar Odom front, some encouraging signs tonight about his condition. Is he defying the odds? We'll going to have the latest, next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)


LEMON: Tonight what may be a breakthrough for Lamar Odom with his estranged wife Khloe Kardashian by his side in the Las Vegas Hospital? There are signs he maybe turning a corner.

CNN's Randi Kaye at the hospital with the very latest. Randi what's - what do you know about his condition?

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well Don, we got good news late today from a source with knowledge of the investigation who is pretty close to the situation here, and this source is now telling CNN that Lamar Odom is conscious. That's actually the first time that we've heard he is conscious in terms of any conformation about that.

We also know from this source that he said hi to Khloe Kardashian, his estranged wife who is at his bedside ever since this incident happened and he collapsed at that ranch and we also know, Don that he is still in guarded condition from this source.

LEMON: Guarded condition but do we know about that ventilator? Is he still on a ventilator, Randi?

KAYE: Well, we got (inaudible) something from Kris Jenner, his mother-in-law. She spoke to "Access Hollywood" about the ventilator and some other things. She said that he gave a thumbs up to those around his bedside which is again, the first time we've heard anything like that. He is off the ventilator.

They're trying to fully wean him off that ventilator. He is using a breathing mask right now. She also told "Access Hollywood" that he's no longer in a coma but that he is still in critical condition and Don, there is some very serious damage to his vital organs so it's still obviously a very critical situation and they are just watching and waiting to see what happens and where his condition goes from here.

LEMON: But very different news than we heard yesterday, Randi and the day before. So thank you very much. Appreciate your reporting from the hospital.

I want to bring in now Dr. Roshini Raj, Associate Professor of Medicine at NYU Langone Medical Center and Nischelle Turner CNN contributor in "Entertainment Tonight" host. Good evening to both of you.

Nischelle you first, you have some additional reporting about Lamar? What are your sources telling you?

NISCHELLE TURNER, "ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT" HOST: Yeah, you know, it's very good information that Randi which is reporting to you. That's the same information that we had tonight on "Entertainment Tonight" and, you know, subsequently we were also just reporting basically that Khloe is still by his bedside. She is been there all day, every day for the past three days. In fact she was still wearing the same clothes she had on when she came to the hospital in the very first day.

Also, the fact that he is conscious, we did have that, as well, but we also are reporting that he is still sedated so he's actually going in and out of sleep, but the signs are really good right now and I have to tell you, Don, after you had your interview last night with Metta World Peace, I ran into him and was talking to him and he was very, very hopeful and said that he has been getting a lot of good information kind of leading to these type of things happening. So yeah, a lot of good news coming out.

LEMON: There's also some -- what did he say to some information about? What he said to Khloe when he woke up?

TURNER: The information that we heard and that we are reporting that he woke up and said morning, "Hi, baby."

So -- and then he kind of didn't say much else. The doctors did ask him how he was doing and how he was feeling and he again gave those -- that thumbs up sign to them.

LEMON: His -- Lamar's ex and mother of his children just twitted. "This is said the truth is God is good. All the time, continued prayers for my children and their father thank you for the support and the well wishes." Remarkable moment for the people who love him, Nischelle.

TURNER: Listen, there was a lot of prayers going out for Lamar and, you know, whether or not you believe in the power of prayer, those people that do believe that maybe this indeed made a difference but also there is everyone who's continuously said Lamar Odom is a fighter. So maybe he simply fought his way back and let's hope that if this is good news and if there is a road to recovery that there is a major life lesson.

LEMON: Well, let's get more information on that, some expert information as a matter or fact.

Dr. Raj, yesterday things were not looking good and now today, you know, we get this incredible news. How typical is it to come out of a coma given all the factors that put him in the hospital in the first place?

ROSHINI RAJ, NYU LANGONE MEDICAL CENTER: Well, you know, it's interesting because there are several causes -- potential causes for a coma. Actually drug overdose is one cause that people tend to come out of a little bit more easily than some of the other causes, for example traumatic brain injury.

So we do see people recover from comas, sometimes it takes a week, a couple week, when it's this kind of scenario but coming out of it after just a few days is very encouraging in the fact that he apparently spoke -- he was able to speak is definitely good news. [21:30:02] However, we're still certainly not out of the woods and if we're talking about organ failure here, it's really waiting game to find out how fully he will recover and what kind of functioning he will have long term.

LEMON: Why is it that, you know, comparison to traumatic brain injury that for a drugs it's easier to come out of a coma?

RAJ: Well, when you think about the way drugs affect your brain, it may slow down your respiration, your breathing, the oxygen delivery to the brain as oppose to where a traumatic brain injury we're you're literally damaging the brain with some sort of traumatic blow.

So that could mean much more difficult to recover from. Where is when the drugs are out of your system, if you haven't really lost that much time in terms of oxygen reaching your brain, you can make a full recovery.

LEMON: We know that it did take him an extra time to get to the hospital because he -- reportedly he could not fit in the medical helicopter that they originally sent but the fact that he is an athlete, doctor, that could prove helpful.

RAJ: Absolutely, you know, we talk in medicine about good protoplasm and poor protoplasm. And what that mean is the state you're in before you get sick really does affects how you recover from any sort of insult or injury and the fact that he was in great shape as an athlete I'm sure he is playing a role in how quickly he recovers.

LEMON: Nischelle, you know, do we know who is still in that hospital? You said Khloe is there and he was been visiting with Lamar because Metta was here last night and he hasn't gone to the hospital. He said his friend was across the street at a hotel is not been allowed in the hospital. Who is still there?

TURNER: Yeah. Well, it's basically just been limited to family and pretty much Khloe. I know his ex-girlfriend, his children were there and so they are visiting, as well, as well as his aunt and possibly his father.

We do know that Kris Jenner, Kim Kardashian, Kourtney Kardashian, and Kylie Jenner as long -- along with Kendall Jenner all left and went back to Los Angeles.

Kim apparently had a doctor's appointment but that they are going back to Las Vegas and back to be with Khloe and also Lamar as he continues to recover.

So there are people that around him at all times and I think they always just kind of want that presence. I know one of the things Khloe said was she was talking to him while he was in his coma because she believed he could hear her and she believed maybe that could be something jarring to bring him out hearing her voice.

LEMON: I'll tell you about that family, they certainly has stood by him not only through this but through other things as well... TURNER: They do.

LEMON: ... they do. They have a very good sense of family.

TURNER: They stick together. Yes, they do.

LEMON: So doctor, I want to ask you about the reports that, you know, he suffered a stroke or heart attack, too, because you mention along -- you said you have to see how much long-term damage is possibly there.

RAJ: That's right. I mean, if we're also talking about a heart attack, so that's damage to the heart muscle, a stroke which is damage to the brain, the recovery is going to be much more complicated, and we don't know if he'll fully recover all the functioning of the heart and the brain.

So, you know, the fact that he's talk is a very good sign but in terms of walking and, you know, resuming his normal life, his normal activities, if there is a heart attack or stroke involved, it may not be fully back to what he was.

LEMON: And at this point, there's no way to say how long he's going to be in the hospital considering we don't -- we just don't know yet.

RAJ: We don't know. They are saying critical condition, which means it's still very much a touch and go situation and if his organs are failing, that's still quite dangerous. So it's really too soon to say how long he'll be there.

LEMON: Yeah, OK. Thank you very much Dr. Raj...

RAJ: Thank you.

LEMON: ... and also Nischelle Turner. Appreciate it.

Coming up, is the "Cosby Show" legacy shattered? The controversial magazine cover that has a lot of people up in arms tonight. We're going to discuss.



LEMON: OK everyone, sit down and watch this. I have been waiting all day, couldn't wait to have this conversation.

Some people are pretty upset tonight about the cover of November's "Ebony" Magazine. I want you take a look at it. It features a shattered image of the cast of "The Cosby Show." Have the allegation against Bill Cosby ruin the legacy of the beloved Huxtable, this is the question.

So joining me now is Kierna Mayo, Editor-in-Chief of "Ebony" Magazine. Welcome. Let's talk.


LEMON: People are mad. I mean, they are mad at this cover because they believe that "Ebony Magazine" I think is supposed to show glowing images all the time of African-Americans. Talk to me about this.

MAYO: Right. So some people...

LEMON: Some people.

MAYO: -- and you mean black people, right?


MAYO: And it's because it's personal to us and this is what we knew. You know, I mentioned earlier that I haven't slept in two days simply because the anxiety around bringing a topic this sensitive to black America would keep one up. The fact remains we got to have the conversation.

LEMON: That's the point of it, isn't it?

MAYO: That's the entire point of it and, you know, someone asked me earlier why are you guys being so fearless and how is "Ebony" being so fearless? Quite frankly I'm not sure if it's fearlessness or if it's a willingness to confront our feelings.

LEMON: So then what is the conversation that we must have, as you said?

MAYO: Well, first of all, we must ask the question, the big loaded questions. Can we -- should we separate the man from the fiction...

LEMON: The fictional character, right.

MAYO: ... the fictional character who we all exalted, loved, needed and some respects worshipped the idea behind the notion behind.

LEMON: Film and theater critic, this is Lisa Kennedy in the article says "Cliff is Huxtable is not Bill Cosby. Cliff is a fig leaf for his creator but he's not the same guy. One is fiction, for heaven's sake." And then she adds that it maybe, "That we need to look for our artists it is complexity." That's when he took for artist, complexity. "I think the more we read the success of shows for what they say about us at a particular moment in time and not confuse their stars for their characters, even when they want us to like Cosby, the smarter will be as humans if we can separate the man from the character." I think that's a very good point.

MAYO: I think it's a good point but I still think it's one...

LEMON: Some people can't. A lot of people can't separate.

MAYO: Some people can't. Some argue that we shouldn't, you know, this is a conversation we've had internally in the offices about not just Bill Cosby quite frankly. I mean there is Kelly, there's Miles Davis. [21:40:01] I mean, it's both historic and current. It's the modern conversation because there are flawed characters, right that make up popular culture and there are people that we engage with at multiple levels all the time and they were so representative that we are very, very sensitive about depictions and I invite everyone to engage with the article because the commentary program - yes.

LEMON: Listen, I found the article engaging. I did not agree with all of the article.

MAYO: I hope you don't.

LEMON: Okay so here is the thing. The reason we're talking about this is because the Cosby family, right, that family, that was what many African-Americans aspire to have this intact family.

MAYO: And still do.

LEMON: And still do.

MAYO: Yeah.

LEMON: And there is nothing wrong with that and there are many families. I grew up in neighborhoods where -- poured with families like that, right from, you know, went to Southern University.

MAYO: My parents have been married for 50 years, my husband's parents married for 50 years.

LEMON: So yes. So what I found in the article is that, it's sort of like that was not believable. That's not part of the African-American culture is having a family that's like the Huxtables because I know many. That's what I got.

When it talked about it may Regan, you know, the grieve with Regan and made Daniel Patrick, the report on the Negro seemed like they were in agreement with that. I don't believe that. I think that there are many African-Americans like the Huxtables and had been before.

MAYO: Yes, I agree. I think that they're had been and they still are and there will be.

The larger question that I think will detail our writer was posing was one about black respectability politics and how well that serves us. Does it serve us at all to buy into this notion that perfection as we...

LEMON: Explain respectability. You say -- if you -- respectability means if you act right or act a certain way that you won't be discriminated against. So that the rule which treat you in kind.

MAYO: Right, somehow your blackness will no longer feel like the burden it sometimes tends to feel like in the United States of America.

LEMON: Right. MAYO: So if you perform at a certain level, if you look a certain way, if your name is not Shaniqua and if your son's jeans are not hanging from his behind, perhaps you're a better type of black person.

LEMON: But I also think that people get it confused. Sometimes, they can conflict the two of having self-respect...

MAYO: Right.

LEMON: ... to respectability politics...

MAYO: Right.

LEMON: ... because you can respect yourself and don't give a damn what white people think about you.

MAYO: I think the Black people are very respectable people , OK?

LEMON: Go ahead, girl.

MAYO: That this notion of us being kings and queens is no joke and very real and I think it's very authentic for most black people. We have a certain amount of pride which is not necessarily attached to the white lens.

LEMON: Right.

MAYO: However, so much of what we do if we're honest is quite frankly and I think we're at a cross roads right now.

We have seen many years, of most recent years of police brutality against black people. We have seen crisis situations that African- Americans have had to face, unique to them that we simply shouldn't be faced with in modern times.

And so, we no longer can afford notions of perfection and -- that are so burdensome to us we are willing to hide our imperfection. We're willing to not do the work to heal in order to keep...

LEMON: You and I were talking earlier, there is nothing wrong with aspiring to have the kind of family that...

MAYO: Oh, no.

LEMON: But there is nothing wrong with being the product of a single -- we can hold of the single mother, we can hold those two thoughts at the same time.

MAYO: Yes, I admit that's what I said.

You know, we can chew gum and dribble the ball at the same time, how about that?

We can celebrate a family that looks like the Cosby...

LEMON: Yeah. MAYO: ... that construct and we can celebrate a black single mother and we can celebrate two gay dads and we can celebrate the breath of black life in America without it being specific.

So this is not our only example of perfection.

LEMON: I have to say that I've -- keep doing this.

MAYO: Thank you.

LEMON: Because I think this is what we need.

I often do things provocative because the whole point is to get people to talk about it and discuss it.

MAYO: That's exactly in a healthy way.

LEMON: Not that you're making a judgment, you're saying here, take a look at this.

MAYO: That's it.

LEMON: What do you think of it?

MAYO: That is it. You know, our cover lines are very basic. We meant not to lead in any way. You come to this with what you have and you come away from it with what you get.

LEMON: It's fantastic.

MAYO: Fantastic.

LEMON: Whether you agree or disagree, keep doing it.

MAYO: Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

MAYO: Take care.

LEMON: Coming up, the legacy of "The Cosby Show" tainted forever or will we ever be able to appreciate it for what it is?



LEMON: Bill Cosby's image as American dad has been shattered by the many allegations against him. But does the down fall erase everything his show once stood for?

Legal Commentator, Areva Martin is here to talk about it, Bakari Seller as well CNN contributor and former member of the South Carolina House of Representative and back with me is Nischelle. Nischelle Turner.

I mean look at this, you all, do I have to go and renew my subscription to "Ebony" magazine, Nischelle?

TURNER: You shouldn't have let it lapse in the first place.

LEMON: I did. I moved around a lot and I find it more interesting now. I'm about to get Jet too or Jet is not around anymore

TURNER: Well, listen, we were kind of talking about this in the break. We were definitely talking about this in the break and I think "Ebony" magazine put themselves back on the map with on feels who and I say bravo to them and applaud them for this cover and starting this conversation because this is a conversation that number one Black America needs to have with itself and that we need to have.

And I'm not saying that I agree with the cover, that I even agree with...

LEMON: You don't have to.

TURNER: ... the entire article because I don't agree with everything but I think this is exactly what we need to be doing right now, having this conversation because we've all been afraid to.

LEMON: Bakari, what do you think of this cover?

BAKARI SELLER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well first of all, I mean everyone growing up, you would go in your grandmother's house or mother's house and listen to the Mississippi mass choir and on the table was an "Ebony" magazine. It was always the center piece for black thought and black discussion.

And I'm glad we're back at this point, between Jamilah Lemieux. and Goldie Taylor who at one point was Walter Scott's only voice down in North Charleston, South Carolina.

[21:50:00] I'm glad they are having this discussion out there because to be frank with you Don, it's hard to push a democratic party where all candidates are white. And a republican party where they haven't talked about issues that affect minority voters for a long period of time and have them talked about black America. And we're not willing to talk about that ourselves

So I'm really glad that "Ebony" Magazine is putting it out at the forefront unless go and have this to have discussion and let's talk about what are holy girl is which is the Cosby show.

LEMON: Go Areva.

AREVA MARTIN, LEGAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think the timing is perfect, Don. What's going to happen is legally lots is blowing up with Bill Cosby. We know that he was deposed recently. And we're hearing by December, close to Christmas time, the contents of that deposition may come out. There are other lawsuits that are pending across the country.

So this is an issue that's not going anywhere. So people have to get ready to deal with what may be pretty ugly facts about Bill Cosby and the character that they love so much.

So I think the timing is perfect.

LEMON: I want you to look at this. Malcolm Jamal Warner was reunited with his former Cosby show co-star Raven-Symone on the view today.

They did discussed the allegations against Bill Cosby and what it is meant for at the show's legacy. Here it is.


MACLCOLM-JAMAL WARNER, ACTOR: When we've had images that perpetuate the negative stereotype of people of color, we've always had the Cosby Show to hold up against that.

And the fact that we no longer have that kind of leaves us not in a great place in terms of having the wide scope of the images of people of color.

Keisha Knight Pulliam that are really interesting thing and that her perspective is the legacy cannot be taken away because all of the good that that show has done cannot be taken away.

The generation of people of color who have chosen to go to college because they watched that show...


WARMER: ... you can't take that away.


LEMON: Anna Navarro who led that conversation, asked him about that cover and about his legacy kind of so did Joy Bayhart. Nischelle, what's your take on that?

TURNER: Oh, gosh so much.

First of all Nischelle Turner don't interrupt that man.

SELLER: No I was like I want to hear it more about that right.

TURNER: Exactly, it was a great conversation. Don't do that.

Second of all, you know, we didn't play what Raven-Symone said.

And I actually disagreed with where she went in this conversation because she was trying to minimalize it as this was just a fictional show and we had writers and this wasn't real.

LEMON: It wasn't real.

TURNER: But for a lot of people of color, it was a reality that we all wanted because we were coming out of the black's exploitation era of the '70s and television and movies.

LEMON: But Niscelle.

TURNER: This is what we had they view in 1984 as a positive stereotype for what we never saw.

LEMON: It wasn't what many people wanted. It was what many people had because at growing up, one of the reasons that I'm doing what I'm doing now - is growing well, there were no people on television who looked like my family. It was, you know, Jay jay and whatever which is fine. Those families who are, you know, real and they existed.

But finally when the Cosby show came along, it looked like the people in my neighborhood, the kinds of homes they had, the kinds of events they went to. They went to HBCU colleges. HBCU, and they also, you know, all had degrees and they worked as professors and doctors and engineers.

And so I was happy to see that on television.

SELLER: But that's not.

LEMON: I know that's not for all the black America.

SELLERS: And even now, I was born in 1984. I'm only 31 years old.

But even now, people still grasp those images. I mean even Jake Colein his song "Role Models" he said, rest in peace Uncle Phil, you're the only the father I ever know.

I mean this is very real whether it not Uncle Phil or whether it's not Bill Cosby, these are very rare images for a lot of people.

But I also want to highlight one other thing.

LEMON: Go ahead.

SELLERS: While we're talking about the value of women dealing with Bill Cosby, it must be said that this discussion is being led by powerful women.

"Ebony" Magazine's lead by powerful woman, the writer is a powerful woman. I mean, this is an amazing discussion we're having and I'm glad we're having it.

LEMON: After Sellers, Claire Huxtable was a powerful woman on the show as well as an attorney? Go ahead, Areva.

TURNER: And Don, you're right...

MARTIN: I just want to say...

TURNER: ... I'm sorry, you're right Don with that too.

LEMON: Go ahead, go ahead Nischelle.

MARTIN: I agree with Bakari that to the extent this conversation is going to be had, it should be by a black magazine led by black women and by someone we trust in the black community.

But I disagree about the importance of the Cosby Show for this generation. I maybe the only person on this panel with teenage. My teenage kids could care less about the Cosby's, don't know who the Cosby's are. And I have to give them a history lesson every time they thank you.

LEMON: Yeah, yeah.

MARTIN: And the rap culture.

So as much as we hold the Cosby's true to our heart is not what this generation looking to because of the role model.

SELLER: All right I may have overreached, I'll give you that.

LEMON: All right Mr. Seller, did you say I was right about something?

SELLER: No, she didn't.

TURNER: I know right.

[21:55:00] Stop the presses and recall Ripley's. I said Don was right.

You know, I think you do make a good point because there were so many families -- African-American families who may have been working class, middle class families who were saying finally we are getting to see ourselves mirrored.

LEMON: I got to run.

TURNER: But there were a lot of families like my own who said I want that out of life.

LEMON: All right we've got to go. Thank you. Have a great weekend. We'll be right back.

SELLER: Thank you, Don.

TURNER: Good to see you.


LEMON: Last week, we announced the top 10 heroes of 2015.

One of them is Dr. Jim Withers. For 23 years, he has been bringing free medical care to Pittsburgh's homeless. Take a look.

JIM WITHERS, CNN HEROES: It's not hard to go out to see them.

[22:00:00] It's hard going home at night and knowing there are people still sleeping out there.

Once you know that they are there it haunts you. LEMON: You can find out more about our CNN heroes by going to our website and check out all these heroes top 10 then vote to your CNN hero of the year at CNN heroes that.