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AT THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA

CIA Director's E-mail Hacked; Boy, 6, Shoots Brother, 3, Father Arrested; Hillary Clinton to Face Benghazi Committee; Will Joe Biden Run for President; Bernie Sanders "Arrives" with SNL Impersonator. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired October 19, 2015 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:34:12] KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Just coming in, a potential new e-mail scandal that could be erupting right now. The government investigating reports that an e-mail account linked to the current CIA director has been hacked.

Let's get straight over to Evan Perez in Washington. He's looking into all of this.

Evan, what are you learning about John Brennan's e-mail?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, this is pretty embarrassing for the CIA, for the Department of Homeland Security. Apparently, it's not only the Chinese or Russians we have to worry about but stoners somewhere in New York and read the "New York Post." This hacker was interviewed by the "New York Post" and they published what they said were records that came from John Brennan's AOL private account. This would have been his nongovernmental e-mails. We're told by officials that they don't believe anything classified has been revealed by anything they've seen so far, but the FBI and the Secret Service are now investigating this.

This hacker, alleged hacker, also says he got into a Comcast e-mail account that belonged to the secretary of the Homeland Security Department, Jeh Johnson. We have statements from the CIA saying, "We are aware of the reports that have surfaced in social media and have referred the matter to the appropriate authorities." DHS says that they don't talk about the secretary's security information. They've also forwarded this to the appropriate authorities for investigation.

It really does show you, though, John and Kate, that, you know, you have a lot of kids who have a lot of computer skills and they spend time just trying to see what they can get into. Sometimes it's pranks like this. This kid is on social media talking about what he's done. We've reached out to him to see if we could talk -- get a little more information. We'll let you know what we find out.

[11:35:50] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: The CIA director, he's aiming pretty high, that kid.

BOLDUAN: I would say so. They're not confirming that it -- his e- mail has been hacked. They're looking into it. As we were talking about, Evan, the CIA director, regardless if there's personal information divulged, this is information that should not be hacked.

BERMAN: If there's one guy.

(CROSSTALK)

PEREZ: Right. Let's be here clear. It's not -- if it is accurate, it's his AOL account. Apparently, one of the things this kid says he got was John Brennan's FS-86 form. This is a form he would have filled out in order to get his top-secret security clearance from the government. This is information that's obviously very sensitive. Brennan and other government officials say, by the way, this already was stolen by Chinese hackers in the last year or so, but this is now out there on behalf of some young hacker who says he's been able to breach this. A very embarrassing situation for all involved.

BERMAN: It may just be an embarrassment.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Thanks so much, Evan.

PEREZ: Sure.

BERMAN: A 3-year-old child is dead in Chicago, shot and killed by his 6-year-old brother in a game of cops and robbers. Now the father is behind bars, facing charges of child endangerment.

BOLDUAN: Police say Michael Santiago left an illegally purchased gun wrapped in pajama pants on top of the refrigerator. He showed the 6- year-old where it was. The boys' grandfather was home when the shooting happened and had been watch them both. He spoke with CNN affiliate, WBBM.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ISRAEL LASALLE, GRANDFATHER: I heard a pop, so I ran down there. I grabbed him. He was laying flat. I grabbed him, flipped him over and he had blood all over him. He was a good kid.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Just horrific.

Joining us now with more on this, CNN correspondent, Rosa Flores. She's been looking into this, the details on this. As well as criminal defense attorney, Doug Burns.

Let's go first to you, Rosa.

You're in Chicago with the very latest. What are you learning this morning? Obviously horrific details are coming out.

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We have new information from police. Police telling CNN that the charges against Michael Santiago could be growing soon. Hear this, they tell me they are building a case against him because this weapon was illegally obtained and was in his home.

But you're right, let's start with the tragic details of the killing of this 3-year-old. Here's what we know from authorities. All of this went down on Saturday. Authorities telling us that, on Saturday, this 3-year-old and 6-year-old were playing cops and robbers. They were under the care of their grandfather. Michael Santiago, their father, was at work. The mother was at the store. So, they were under the care of their grandfather when the 6-year-old found that gun on top of the refrigerator. It was wrapped in pajama pants. That gun was loaded. That gun went off, hitting the 3-year-old in the head, killing the 3-year-old.

Now, Michael Santiago faces charges of child felony endangerment, in essence, for keeping a weapon that was loaded inside a home with children. We're learning more about Michael Santiago this morning from police. According to police, they tell me this morning that this gun that was -- that was obtained is an older weapon. Investigators are processing it this morning, trying to learn more about it. They're trying to figure out when it was purchased, how it was purchased. Although they do tell me Santiago told them during an interview that he purchased this gun from another gang member because, hear this, police say Santiago is a, quote, "documented gang member in Chicago." When I asked them what they meant, they told me police know him as a gang member in Chicago. But again, police telling us this morning that the charges against Santiago could be growing.

And, Kate and John, he could be facing a judge again this morning, at 1:30 central, 2:30 eastern, for another bond hearing. The bond is set at $75,000.

[11:40:02] BERMAN: All right, Rosa, thanks so much.

Attorney Doug Burns here with us.

It's an illegal gun left loaded on the top of the refrigerator. What a horrible, horrible outcome. In terms of legal liability, there's got to be a range of things.

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Of course, child endangerment is knowingly or negligently putting a child under 18 years of age in harm or seriously bodily harm and/or --

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: And the bar for negligence is low.

BURNS: Yes. The negligence part makes it even easier. The defense, incidentally, would be -- and I am not saying this is the case -- I had it locked up in a safe, somebody else moved it. I'm not saying that's the case here. By the way, he apparently made a statement.

What's interesting about what the reporter indicated is they will add charges because the gun was purchased illegally, in the home illegally, and makes it an easier prosecution.

BOLDUAN: That's what I was going to ask. Rosa is learning from sources they're building a case against him. Additional charges could be coming at him. The fact they say he's a gang member, how does this play into this?

BURNS: It's an excellent question because the point is, just change the facts. This is a model citizen. I was in a situation as a federal prosecutor where a law enforcement agent fell asleep at 3:00 in the morning, gun on the coffee table, his son died. That's a different case.

(CROSSTALK)

BURNS: But it's still endangerment, albeit because it's the negligence, as you said earlier. But here the point is, and the point you're making, it's a backup insurance policy, essentially. In other words, regardless of how they might defend the endangerment, if the gun is purchased illegally, not to be a broken record, makes it easier.

BERMAN: Does you ever go beyond child endangerment? Does he ever get accessory to murder?

BURNS: There could be. Absolutely. There could definitely be some homicide theory, absolutely. Like a reckless killing, reckless disregard for human life by virtue. By the way, the most important fact I heard is that he showed the child where the gun was. That's a huge factor in this case.

BOLDUAN: Doug, it's great to meet you. Thanks for coming in.

BURNS: My pleasure.

BOLDUAN: Thank you.

Coming up for us, tension, GOP in-fighting. It's not ending, as one Republican tells his colleagues to shut up about Hillary Clinton and the congressional investigation into Benghazi attacks. Details on that ahead.

BERMAN: Bernie Sanders' shocking big-time's debut on "Saturday Night Live." Actually, it was Larry David playing Bernie Sanders.

BOLDUAN: Are you sure?

BERMAN: But there's no perceivable difference. So the question is, how does Hillary Clinton respond? I mean, the real and fake Hillary Clinton.

BOLDUAN: And it involves underpants.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:47:05] BOLDUAN: It's shaping up to be a blockbuster week for Hillary Clinton with new poll numbers out showing she was the clear winner in the first Democratic debate. She now looks ahead to the anticipated grilling she'll face on Capitol Hill over the Benghazi attacks. The chairman of the congressional panel that's been investigating those attacks is fighting mad as he tries to fend off charges that the investigation is politically motivated. Some of those attacks even coming from his own party. Listen here to Chairman Trey Gowdy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. TREY GOWDY, (R-SC), CHAIRMAN, HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE ON BENGHAZI: I have told my own Republican colleagues and friends, shut up talking about things that don't know anything about. And unless you're on the committee, you have no idea what we've done, why we've done it, and what new facts we have found.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: This is a direct collision right now between the presidential campaign and Congress.

CNN political reporter, Manu Raju, joins us from Washington with the latest.

Huge week. Not just for Hillary Clinton, also for congressional Republicans.

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: That's right. Of course, this tension in the Republican Party started a few weeks ago when Kevin McCarthy, the House majority leader, and at the time, a candidate for speaker, suggested that the committee was meant to hurt Hillary Clinton's poll numbers. He cited that as one of the reasons the committee has been effective. That uproar was one reason McCarthy decided ultimately to drop his speaker's bid. But once that uproar subsided there were comments made by Rich Hanna, a New York Republican, who doesn't make much news, but made a lot of news last week when he suggested the committee was, indeed, part of an effort to tear down, take down Hillary Clinton. Of course, that gave Democrats a lot of ammunition. It just infuriated Trey Gowdy. And why he made those comments yesterday.

Now, guys, I spoke to a number of Republicans who are on the committee or who are Republicans in leadership, and they are all making -- giving that same message to their members, saying, be quiet about this investigation. They're trying to make this look like a fact-based investigation. They say it is a fact-based investigation. It is not politically motivated. But any time you make comments like this, you give ammunition to the Clinton campaign, which has been trying all along to discredit it. It really gives Republicans really a very -- they have to navigate a very fine balance here going forward on this committee on Thursday, because they want to push Hillary very hard. They want to trip her up, but they do not want to look like they're on a political witch hunt. Comments like the ones I cited were not helpful, according to the Republicans.

BERMAN: It will be fascinating to see. Both sides, do they come combative? Does Hillary Clinton come in fighting back, saying --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Fact-based investigation is not what Hillary Clinton is going do say.

BERMAN: It will be interesting to see. A big, big week.

Manu, you'll be there covering it for us.

Thanks so much.

RAJU: Yeah. Thanks, guys.

BOLDUAN: Thanks, Manu.

BERMAN: Joe Biden --

BOLDUAN: Yes?

BERMAN: -- has he made up his mind?

BOLDUAN: I don't know. Has he?

[11:50:00] BERMAN: We were supposed to know by today if he was going to run for president. Has he waited too long, though? We'll have that conversation next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: All right. It is the cliffhanger that keeps on hanging here. Will Joe Biden run for president? All of this time we have been talking about the decision, but first, it's time to talk about indecision.

BOLDUAN: And has Biden waited too long? Has Biden missed the window? Well, take a look at the numbers, the latest CNN poll out this morning. And this is one of the numbers that you should take a look at, that more Democrats thought that he should stay out now at least from August.

Let's talk to about this and much more with Ron Christie and Brad Woodhouse. Brad is a communications director for the Democratic National Committee, and Ron was special assistant to George W. Bush.

It's great to see both of you.

So, Brad, oh, Brad, oh, Brad.

(LAUGHTER)

Joe Biden. You know everything. What do you believe?

[11:55:00] BRAD WOODHOUSE, COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE: Well, you only have to look at a calendar to say it's getting quite late. People have gotten in the races late before. Bill Clinton famously got in late in 1992, but we're not that many months from the Iowa caucus. And I think that the poll is really interesting that the number of Democrats who think that the vice president should get in is on the decline. And the poll showed that 61 percent of Democrats, who saw the debate last week, don't think that the vice president should get in. And now I don't believe that is a negative so much towards the vice president as it was a positive towards the debate performance of Hillary Clinton and, to some extent, perhaps Bernie Sanders.

BERMAN: And it may show if there is an optimal time to jump in was a few weeks ago, and maybe not now, although he had the family considerations that he had, which people do believe are genuine.

Ron, it is interesting, because now, the timing now is that if he gets in, in the next few days -- and CNN was reporting as soon as last week that it could be in the time frame of today or tomorrow and who knows -- it is right before Hillary testifies before Congress about Benghazi. That would be a giant flipping of the bird to Hillary it seems.

RON CHRISTIE, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO GEORGE W. BUSH: Huge game- changer, and the secretary of state, from everything I've heard, that she has cleared her calendar and she wants to get the testimony right and go to the Hill, and then the opportunity that Joe Biden comes in to big foots her on her week? Now one side might say that's good for her because it takes the focus off of Benghazi but, on the other hand, I think there is a such a sympathy factor for him that if he gets into race, he could a be game changer.

BOLDUAN: And if you look at the calendar, a lot of folks are saying that Joe Biden doesn't care about the calendar or the conventional way that this thing could be run, but Joe Biden is running it on his own calendar and his own way.

WOODHOUSE: That is right. And the vice president should do whatever the vice president wants the do, and I think that Secretary Clinton has made it clear that he should make whatever decision he wants to make and what is best in the interest of the family. I do think what John said is right, there was a time, but I don't believe it is a thunder bolt, and she is not going to be big foot her.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: What makes you think that?

WOODHOUSE: We have been talking about Joe Biden possibly getting into the race for five month, and he is still running behind the Senator from Vermont in the polls. So Hillary Clinton's debate performance also makes it more difficult for me to believe that, if he gets -- I don't think Biden for the Democratic primary is Trump to the Republican primary if he gets in and shoots to the top.

BERMAN: And somebody is right that we should change the topics.

BOLDUAN: I was going to say, Brad, you are no longer on the show.

(CROSSTALK)

WOODHOUSE: Let's leave that one there after you said I was right.

(LAUGHTER) BERMAN: And now, let's get into what is one of the more significant

developments over the weekend and that is "Saturday Night Live." When you get an official impersonator on the "Saturday Night Live," you have arrived on the political seen. This week, Bernie Sanders has gotten and he didn't get just any one, but Larry David.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

BERMAN: And so let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY DAVID, COMEDIAN, SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE: I own one pair of underwear, and that is it.

(LAUGHTER)

Some of the billionaires, they have three or four pairs.

And I don't have a dryer. I have to put my clothes on the radiator.

(LAUGHTER)

So who do you want as president? One of the Washington insiders or a guy who has one pair of clean underwear that he dries on the radiator?

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(LAUGHTER)

BERMAN: Again, that is Larry David. That is not Bernie Sanders.

CHRISTIE: I was going to say, are you sure about that? It is difficult to tell.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: And now, when Tina Fey did Sarah Palin, it was not particularly friendly. And Will Ferrell did George W. Bush, it was not particularly friendly. And it did not help, because that right there, and you have to wonder and watch, because it is sort of funny and likable.

CHRISTIE: And it is funny. And Darrell Hammond had a great Dick Cheney. And now Larry David. And you sit here to laugh and take fun in politics, and something that we have not been able to do in a long time. And "Saturday Night Live" with these skits, it is a great job and gets us to the laugh a little bit. But I am telling you if you could find those two in the same room at the same time, I am not sure you know which is which.

BOLDUAN: The enduring question, and we want to ask the question and let it linger.

But, Brad, how many pairs of clean underwear to you have?

(LAUGHTER)

WOODHOUSE: Well, I will tell you, I don't dry them on the radiator.

(LAUGHTER)

CHRISTIE: And neither do I, buddy.

(LAUGHTER)

So, Brad, in general, can this hurt? It can be a double-edged sword, but is there any downside for Bernie Sanders here?

WOODHOUSE: No, look. It is fun and it was dead on and spot-on. And I have been in the same room with Bernie Sanders, and this is absolutely spot-on. There is no down side. And no downside and actually a lot of upside to Secretary Clinton appearing on "Saturday Night Live," herself, and the impersonators, do say that you have arrived.

BERMAN: We are all doomed with Larry David.

(LAUGHTER)

Ron Christie, Brad Woodhouse, great to have you with us. Really appreciate it.

WOODHOUSE: Thank you.

CHRISTIE: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Thanks, guys, so much.

Thank you all for joining us AT THIS HOUR.

BERMAN: "Legal View" with Ashleigh Banfield starts now.