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Obama Orders Several Dozen Special Ops Teams Into Syria; Reince Preibus Announces Today It Is Suspending Partnership With NBC; Black Lives Matter Protesters Interrupt Hillary Clinton; Is Ben Carson the New GOP Front-runner?; Newly Released Tapes Confirm Jared Fogle's Sexual Interest in Children. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired October 30, 2015 - 20:00   ET


[20:00:11] JOHN BERMAN, CNN GUEST HOST: I'm John Berman in for Anderson tonight. We begin with a small number of troops but a big shift in this country's ongoing involvement, not just in the fight against ISIS but the larger horror story of the Syrian civil war.

Today, after years of saying no American boots on the ground in Syria, President Obama reversed course ordering several dozen special operations forces into the war zone and leaving the door open to send more.

Barbara Starr has late details from the Pentagon. Jim Acosta working his sources at the White House. Let's start with Barbara Starr.

Barbara, these U.S. forces headed into Syria. What will they do there?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: They are going to head into northern Syria, John. This is an area where both Syrian-Arab and Syrian-Kurdish forces in opposition to ISIS have been trying to gain traction to fight ISIS. This is a stronghold area for much of ISIS. So what will the troops going to be doing? They are going to go in and so-called advice, assist, help the Kurds and the Arabs learn how to fight better, get them weapons, ammunition, communications, intelligence, there will be more air strikes we are told. Everything to advice, assist them and get them out in the field.

The troops will get there within the month. They will get a lay of the land and then begin to work. But one of the key questions here tonight, is how much do those Kurdish and Arab opposition fighters really want U.S. troops with them? We don't know. Many of those fighters have told our CNN team led by (INAUDIBLE) ward on the ground in the (INAUDIBLE) area, they want weapons, they want ammunition, they want heavier weapons to fight with, not the advice so much - John.

BERMAN: And Barbara, we are talking about fewer than 50 personnel. So how much of an impact can this really have?

STARR: Let's just take one example. One of the key goals the U.S. set is for, to facilitate these opposition fighters being able to retake the city of Raqqa. This isn't an ISIS self-declared capital. Tens of thousands of people live there. ISIS completely dug in. The goal to get those fighters to get Raqqa back and hold it really going to be a real long haul to get their most U.S. officials will tell you. Fifty special operations forces, they can help. They can facilitate. They can give the fighters confidence. They can give them some technical assistance, but ISIS very well dug in. There's no way around it. This is all going to be a very long haul - John.

BERMAN: All right. Barbara Starr for us at the Pentagon. Thanks so much.

Now, President Obama's decision, which whatever you think of it, it is a big change for him.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I do not foresee a scenario in which boots on the ground in Syria, American boots on the ground in Syria would not only be good for America but also would be good for Syria.

I will not put American boots on the ground in Syria. I will not pursue an open-ended action like Iraq or Afghanistan.

The resolution we submitted today does not call for the deployment of U.S. ground combat forces to Iraq or Syria.


BERMAN: Joining us now, Jim Acosta at the White House with more.

Jim, what's the White House saying about this announcement?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, they are saying that this is going to be basically a deployment of 50 or so special operations forces that they will be serving an advice and assist role. White House press secretary Josh Earnest said they will not be engaged in a combat in Syria, but they could potentially be involved in raids like the one we saw last week in Iraq, that rescue mission during which a U.S. soldier died. And so it raises the question about these promises that President Obama made to the American people when the war on is began and that he would not be putting U.S. combat troops on the ground to take on ISIS. So we asked White House press Secretary Josh Earnest about that during the briefing earlier today and it got a bit testy. Here is what he had to say.


ACOSTA: It would be great if we had a moment of clarity and you can acre knowledge, yes, this mission is changing and not what it was said it was going to be at the onset of this. I mean --

JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: To say -- to say that, Jim, would only confuse the situation. The fact of the matter is the mission that the commander in chief has given our military personnel in Iraq and now in Syria is a train, advice and assist mission. And we have gone to great lengths to make clear that that is in no way diminishes the amount of risk. That our men and women in uniform will be facing.

We have also been quite clear that there are actually have been situations where combat boots have been on the ground inside of Syria. We have been quite candid about that.


ACOSTA: And despite that give and take there, the White House press secretary said throughout that briefing today that this mission has not changed when it comes to taking on ISIS, John.

[20:05:00] BERMAN: Nevertheless, Jim, the president has flat out said, flat out, that there would be no U.S. boots on the ground in Syria. Did they acknowledge the shift here?

ACOSTA: Well, I think they are really fighting against that, John. And it is really in sharp contrast with what the Pentagon has been saying this week, talking about that mission in Iraq last week, which will be similar, potentially to what is going to take place in Syria. They are saying that U.S. forces are involved in combat in Iraq and those raids that may be taking place from time to time. That also is a departure from what the White House said at the beginning of this ISIS campaign.

And so, John, I think that they are in sort of a box here that they are putting themselves into. You know, when they say advice and assist, I think it depends what the definition of advice and assist because when it comes to assisting the forces on the ground, there really is no definition here.

BERMAN: All right, Jim Acosta. Thanks so much.

ACOSTA: You bet.

BERMAN: Let's bring in more expertise, CNN military analyst, retired army lieutenant general Mark Hertling, also senior international correspondent Clarissa Ward who is just back from Syria and CNN world affairs analyst Fareed Zakaria, host of "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS."

General Hertling, the White House said today that these troops will not be involved in combat operations. But if you are in a country where there is a civil war going on, and really a war not just between two sides, but many sides, aren't you in the middle of combat?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: You certainly are, John. This is just a war of words between the false premise of the so-called boots on the ground, what is combat, what is advice. When the bullets are flying around you, you are in combat. I think the distinction is are they leading large American organizations in a combat role? They are not. They are advising and assisting either Syrian force, Kurdish forces or Iraqi and that's the key difference.

BERMAN: Our intelligence analyst, Bob Baer, who worked for the CIA, he called this move a band aid on a gaping wound. What does this move fix? HERTLING: I disagree with Bob on that. I think what we are talking

about is continuing to contribute to a strategy to defeat ISIS on the battle field. And I think from the very beginning, the president just said we are going to let indigenous forces do that. And that -- in this case, it is the Syrian Arab coalition and it is the Kurdish forces in Syria and it is the Iraqi security forces in Iraq. We're contributing to that. We have said for over a year that when the conditions permit it, the military would advise the president that they could use more forces to do that. That's exactly what is occurring at this time because of changing conditions on the battle field. We have more engagement with forces, we have more lengths to the Syrian and Kurdish army. So we are in fact, providing that assistance to better coordinate operations on the ground.

BERMAN: Clarissa, in a feet of pretty incredible timing, you were inside Syria alongside some of these Kurdish forces that the special ops will be working alongside. What's your impression of their capabilities, what kind of success they had and what these American troops, how much of a difference they will make?

CLARISSA WARD, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well John, one can't debate the fact that they have enjoyed some really decisive and important victories against ISIS on the battle field, firstly, because they are incredible fierce and brave fighters. But primarily perhaps because they enjoyed coalition and U.S. air support.

We went into Syria knowing that they were at the core of the U.S.' strategy to try to defeat ISIS in Syria. And I have to say, it was quite striking spending time with them on the ground to see just how much work really remains to be done. They are still very under equipped, lightly armed, most of them carrying just AK-47s, old AK- 47s. Some of them fighting in sneakers or even sandals. They don't have body armor. They don't have armored vehicles and they don't have heavier weapons, the type of armor piercing weapons that really if we're talking about a potential offensive on the ISIS stronghold of Raqqa they would need because, of course, ISIS does have those kinds of weapons. Most of them American weapons that they took from Iraqi forces.

BERMAN: Fareed, this is a big shift. I mean, the president for years has said no U.S. combat forces in Syria, no boots on the ground. This -- fewer than 50 people but it is boots on the ground. You've been critical of the White House strategy and said there is no strategy. So why this? Why now?

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST, FAREED ZAKARIA GPS: So I think that Mark has it exactly right. This is a logical extension of the kind of tactical approach that administration has taken, which is when we can, we will try to do things that inflict pain on ISIS and the Kurds are inflicting pain on ISIS. But it's good tactics. It remains bad strategy.

Think about it this way, what if they were to win? What if the administration's wildest dreams came true and the Kurdish forces push back ISIS and then take over parts of Raqqa and Syria? Happens then? Who is going to govern this new real estate that's been taken over? Are the Kurds going to become the new mass overall to vast parts of Syria? No, the Sunnis will not stand for that. Are the Sunnis going to come and which Sunnis? There are six different sets of militias that are competing. This is always been the problem with the strategy for administration.

Tactically, I understand it, and the Kurds are mostly just fighting a defensive battle. They are trying to not let ISIS beat them. So fine, you want to help the Kurds, that's good. But what's the largest strategy if you're going to get into this? What is your ultimate objective? Whom do you want to rule Syria? And administration doesn't really have an answer to that. The answer is not Assad, not ISIS, not the Iranian militia, not Hezbollah. I get that, but that's a negative. What is the positive approach? That's where the hole here is. Because if this were to succeed, you will own real estate in Syria. Does the United States want to get into the business of occupying Syria? We tried that for ten years in Iraq. That's the issue.

[20:11:17] BERMAN: Not even a little. It's a big problem.

Another big problem general, is Russia. Russia is now ever more involved inside Syria bombing inside Syria. There are Russian troops on the ground inside Syria. Now, most of what Russia is doing is in a different part of the country. They are in the western part of the country right now. You can see those explosions, those mostly where the Russian airstrikes are. The U.S. forces, 50 of them or so will be in the absolute north and east of the country. But will this need to be coordinated? Will this operation need to be coordinated with Russia?

HERTLING: It certainly will, John. But there are some other things going on, too. I think Russia's strategy is not a strategy, as well. They are performing tactics to sure up Mr. Assad and his area of the country and that's it. They are not going to wonder to the north. But I think as we go into the talks in Vienna, the United States needs to have something more substantive on the table to say this is what we're doing.

BERMAN: General Hertling, Clarissa Ward, Fareed Zakaria, thanks so much.

Just ahead tonight, the uproar in the infighting over this week's Republican debate. Candidates taking aim at the questioners, the media, even their own party leader. We will take you inside to what was turning into what the party chair called a crap sandwich.

And later, Hillary Clinton and the hacklers, why she came under verbal fire from what could be a powerful voice in the Democratic primary and how she handled the situation.


[20:16:27] BERMAN: This Sunday advisers to some of the leading presidential campaigns will meet privately to try and take control of the debate process, take control from their own party. They are still seething over the questions and the tone and the time keeping of Wednesday's debate on CNBC, a debate sanctioned by the Republican National Committee.

For his part, chairman Reince Priebus announced today that the party is suspending its partnership with NBC, CNBC's parent company for a debate planned for February. He called the CNBC debate a crap sandwich. Those were his actual words.

Ben Carson complained about got you questions. Carson, Ted Cruz and most of the candidates took turns blasting the moderators and media. And to be sure, there have been ample critiques from left, right and center of how the questioning was done. That said some of the same voices from across the spectrum have also concluded that many of the questions were legitimate serious, tough and fair. Here is a small sampling.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're skipping more votes than any senator to run for president. Why not slow down, get a few more things done first or at least finish what you've started.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Given the problems we've been discussing, growing (INAUDIBLE) rich and poor, why would you tax labor at a higher rate than income from investments?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your board fired you. I just wondered why you think we should hire you now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You've said that you would like to replace Medicare with a system of individual family savings accounts. Explain how that would work, exactly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You've said something many in your party did not believe, that is that claimant change is undeniable and human activity contributes to it, and you said quote "the question is, what do we do to deal with it?"


BERMAN: Another complaint heard from Ted Cruz on stage Wednesday night is they got you questions and Democrats got softballs from CNN in the Democratic debate. Well, Keeping Them Honest, we went back to the video and found these asked by a guy who sometimes appears on this program.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, AC 360: How can any kind of socialist win a general election in the United States?

Why should Americans trust you with the country when they see what is going on in the city you ran for seven years?

You supported the (INAUDIBLE), your honeymooned in the Soviet Union, and just this weekend, you said you are on the (INAUDIBLE). Doesn't that add right itself?

Do you change your political identity based on who you're talking to?

Why did it take 18 inspector general reports and a CNN investigation and others before you and your colleagues took action?

In all candor, you and your husband are part of the one percent, how can you credibly represent the views of the middle class?

As president, would you stand by your principles if it ricked financial stability?


BERMAN: Softballs. Perspective now from senior political analyst David Gergen as well as CNN political commentator Van Jones who was a close adviser to President Obama, also Ana Navarro, Bush supporter and Marco Rubio friend and CNN political commentator to boot.

David, you heard Anderson questions right there. We also heard, by the way, at the first FOX News debate a whole bunch of really tough questions at the candidates, so tough that Donald Trump wanted a month-long rant after it. Yet, the RNC did not suspend FOX News from its next debate, they suspended NBC from its next debate. So what is really going on here?

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, it's a complicated story. The RNC and the candidates are angry at the president in general and particularly CNBC for what they see as a bunch of questions that were not just tough, the kind that Anderson asked but were insulting. I mean, Donald Trump early on was asked aren't you just running a cartoon campaign? But that's an insulting question.

What Anderson was asking was a tough question, very much in the traditions of Tim Russert as so many people look to from NBC. And that was he asked very, very good questions, fair questions, things you ought to face, are they softball? No, they are not. They are hardball. But they did sort of hit below the belt and I think what you have is the RNC now with the candidates objecting, but there is also an internal dispute.

The RNC moved almost preemptively because the candidates themselves want to take control of the debate and take it away from the RNC which the RNC does not want to lose control of. This is also - so there are two different arguments going on, one between the Republicans in general versus CNBC. And secondly, there's an argument and there is tension, a fight between, within the Republican Party between the Republican national committee and the candidates who would like to take control back.

[20:20:51] BERMAN: Ana, you know, it's interesting going after the media is something you see candidates in both parties do from time to time. And Lord know, sometimes the media deserves plenty of criticism. But are there limits, if you talk about the media and what we do wrong all the time, are you not addressing the problems of the voters and their lives and things that they want to see done for them?

ANA NAVARRO, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: You know, this wasn't as much a general criticism of the media as it was a criticism, very specific criticism of this debate and these moderators who frankly were unprepared, couldn't quote the sources that they were siting and trying to question the candidates on who were fighting among themselves, who were interrupting candidates, did not allow a free flow of conversation in exchange, were very unfair and uneven with the time allotted to the different candidates.

It was an unmitigated disaster when it comes to moderating a debate. I saw Reince Priebus yesterday at a celebration for Paul Ryan last night. And I can tell you he was stowing. And this is one of the few issues actually where all Republicans are united.

I am yet to encounter one Republican who didn't find the moderators, the debate, the tone, the questions, everything just frankly offensive and unacceptable. And so I think the RNC has every right and Reince is doing the right thing by taking these measures.

You know, the networks get a lot of money and get a lot of viewers. Fourteen million viewers by CNBC, more by any other program they had and they have to stick to a few rules. One thing of the things that CNBC had promised was this was going to be a debate about fiscal and economic issues. It wasn't.

BERMAN: No, they were certainly not dominating that debate. But van, you disagree.

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, first of all, I definitely agree that it was not as advertised. They said it was going to be an economic financial debate. I think people prepared for that and they became more of a kind of a general got you debate. But I do think that you have to be concerned now because there were some tough fair questions and frankly, some of the candidates just told boldface lies in the first of tough honest questions. They haven't been accountable for that.

The other big challenge you have now, is that if you overreact to this and you run off and you create, now you are going to say we're not going to go on with Telemundo. It is not just NBC. It is blanket punishment against NBC for CNBC. That debate is a Telemundo NBC weekly standard debate. What Reince is now saying is we're only going to work with "Weekly Standard." That's dangerous. "Weekly Standard" is conservative.

The last time in 2012, let's not forget, the conservatives ran so far off into their own media rabbit hole, that they actually believe that they need to unsque (ph) the polls, remember that? Romney actually believed the pundits who are telling him that the polls are wrong rather than the polls themselves. So there is a danger of the Republicans getting too wrapped up in this. The media is always wrong. We are victims in creating our eco-chamber. That hurt them in 2012. It could hurt them again.

BERMAN: David, I want to bring up breaking news. "The New York Times" is just reporting that a very, very important Republican fundraiser, Paul Singer is a very, very wealthy man given a lot of money. Millions of dollars to politicians over the years. He has just committed to Marco Rubio. This is exactly the kind of thing that a lot of people have been watching and waiting for to see if at a certain point, the performances at the debate, the trends and campaign were going a certain way so some uncommitted donors would start to commit.

Now, Paul Singer is a guy who donated heavily to George W. Bush. You know, he's a man who was courted reportedly by "the New York Times" by key advisors to Jeb Bush over the last several weeks, nevertheless after this debate, where Marco Rubio was seen as doing well, Jeb Bush not as well. This whale of a donor goes to Marco Rubio. So David, how significant is this?

GERGEN: It's a big story. I know Paul Singer. He is very influential in conservative circles. He is especially influential in New York where he is in a financial circles of New York, and many who are in very, very successful financial people follow his advice when they decide where to give money. And coming out of this debate in particular when the press is turning saying Marco Rubio had a breakthrough and Jeb Bush had a really bad night. Jeb Bush sort of finished and I don't think he is. But that's the kind of question being posed.

Paul Singer announced this very day that he is now supporting Marco Rubio will be seeing as and that properly seen as a big break for Rubio, big breakthrough for him. He was on competition for Paul Singer to help. And also, please understand Paul Singer is not just what money he gives, he also is very influential in bundling out money from other people. They gave more money than anybody else last year, but he also is a big bundler. And so, this is a significant breakthrough for Rubio.

[20:25:49] BERMAN: So, Ana, you are deeply involved in Bush world. Is this not the exact kind of thing that the Bush campaign fears?

NAVARRO: Look, I don't know that they fear it. And I know that, you know, like practically everybody else running, they did compete and they did court Paul Singer who as David said, very important donor. Paul Singer also isn't only a donor. He is also become an activist and advocate particularly on gay rights issues and equality issues. He has got a gay son who he supports entirely and he is one of the leading voices in the Republican Party today in the conservative movement trying to push the party on the gay rights issue. So it's going to be interesting to see how that gets navigated because Marco Rubio is on the other side as Paul Singer on a lot of these issues. And it is my hope that Paul Singer is influential, frankly in tempering that issue with many of the candidates running and on the Republican agenda and platform.

BERMAN: All right. Ana Navarro, David Gergen, thank you so much. Van Jones, stick around. We are going to talk to you again in just a second.

A quick footnote, we were speaking about the disputed NBC Telemundo debate, and mistakenly said the "Weekly Standard" is part of it. Actually, it's the "National Review," just to be clear on that. The "National Review" still very connected to that debate as far as we know.

Coming up, Hillary Clinton drowned out by Black Lives Matter protesters while giving a speech. We will talk to you about how she handled that moment with some help from civil rights icon representative John Lewis.

Plus, we are going to hear from some of Ben Carson supporters about why they are so passionate about his campaign and why are they drawn to him and why they don't see some of his remarks as controversial. Stay with us.


JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hillary Clinton had barely began a speech in Atlanta today when protesters from Black Lives Matter disrupted the event drowning out the Democratic front-runner. Take a look.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let her talk! Let her talk! Let her talk!



BERMAN: Civil rights legend Congressman John Lewis tried to break up the protesters. After about 15 minutes, as you saw there in that video, they were escorted from the room. All this unfolded in a historically black university Clark, Atlanta. Suzanne Malveaux was there. She joins us now with the latest. Suzanne, we saw a little bit on the video right. But how did Hillary Clinton handle all of this?

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: John, I have to say it was really extraordinary. I've never seen anything like this and being there, it was more like 20 to 25 minutes that you had this standoff take place. It was only a group of about ten students or so who entered the room, she was about five minutes into her remarks when they started shouting black lives matter, black lives matter.

At first, she tried to address them directly and she said yes, black lives do matter, let me explain why. She was drowned out by these chants black lives matter, what the hell are you talking about? These type of things. She went on and on and on trying to say those remarks. Well, Congressman Lewis, John Lewis the civil rights icon and the mayor of Atlanta Kasim Reed, they went to those protesters on the floor, pleading with them, trying to get them to be quiet or to leave, you know, gently trying to get them off the floor. They would not. This took place for quite some time. It was a big distraction as you can imagine. Cell phone cameras were out. Everybody was shooting this. They were filming this. It lasted for a long time. She tried to tell stories about the struggles of civil rights icons, Dorothy Height, to which the crowd would respond, they would cheer and then it would die down.

So finally, what happened was that Lewis and the mayor got on stage with her and had her back essentially showing that they were in support of her, security went and took those protesters away and she thanked them. She turned and thanked them, saying thank you for having my back and then went on with the speech talking about criminal justice reform.

BERMAN: Interesting to see. Suzanne Malveaux, thank you so much. A lot to talk about here. Van Jones is back with us. Also here CNN political commentator Ryan Lizza, Washington correspondent for "The New Yorker."

Van, you talk and you've spoken about the political success of the Black Lives Matter movement. When you see this video tonight, are the protesters trying to protest Hillary Clinton per se or are they trying to be heard?

VAN JONES, FORMER OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: You know, I think probably at this point they are trying to be heard. You know, it's remarkable to have a group, to have a slogan take up this much mind share. I mean a year ago, you never heard the slogan, I think a couple of things are going on. First of all, they have been effective at getting Democrats to take criminal justice much more seriously, and also to take black issues in particular much more seriously. Both wings of the party, Bernie Sanders, populous wing and the Hillary Clinton more moderate wing, both were sort of taking the black issue for granted.


Bernie Sanders sometimes would just talk about taxing Wall Street and fixing Social Security as the sort of a trickle down justice. Well, you know, and if we do that, then racism will go away. They really do fire from that. He doesn't talk that way anymore.

Hillary Clinton has also been much stronger on criminal justice than her husband was. In fact, he's gone - her husband's own views. So, they have been very effective. I think the challenge now is they've got to find a way since they have actually won, she was going to give a speech on their issue to continue to be heard without stopping other people from speaking, especially when they are speaking about stuff that in fact, is agreeing with the direction they laid out.

BERMAN: Because Hillary Clinton was trying to address the very issues, I believe, they wanted addressed in that speech. Ryan, you know, for a Democrat to win the White House, Democrat needs to win, you know, well over 90 percent, essentially of the African American vote, so there is extreme sensitivity to protests like this. Have the candidates found a successful way to navigate this issue?

RYAN LIZZA, WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Well, I think as Van pointed out, the Black Lives Matters movement has been incredibly influential in the Democratic primaries. You know, every cycle you have some group, I remember, previous cycles, you know, there were - pro-climate change reform protesters at every Democratic event and frankly, that didn't have nearly as big of an impact on candidates as the Black Lives Matters protesters have. Look at Bernie Sanders. He comes from an overwhelmingly white state Vermont, he was not well versed in issues that are important to the African-American community. And he got a lot -- he got religion after being protested several times.

This protest today I think was a little bit more puzzling because you have Hillary Clinton here at a historically black college with an icon of the civil rights movement, of course, John Lewis and the crowd, an overwhelmingly African-American crowd on her side, as far as I can tell turning against the protesters, so just in terms of effective protest, it didn't seem to me like these students or whoever they were got their message across or sort of got -- accomplished any goal. But overall, they have had a big impact on the Democrats.

BERMAN: Guys, stand by. I want to bring Suzanne Malveaux back in who was at this event. And Suzanne, I understand you've actually just had a chance to speak to some leaders of the Black Lives Matter movement about what happened tonight. What did they say?

MALVEAUX: Well, I actually talked to the protesters who were there tonight, John, of Black Lives Matter, Avery Jackson being the one who was the most vocal at that protest and they say look, they don't have any demands. They got what they wanted which was simply to bring up the issue about criminal justice reform. They felt that it was more rhetoric than action, that they wanted to move beyond that and they seal that this is something that they don't want Hillary Clinton to take the black vote, the young black vote for granted. And I think that's what you're seeing here. That is the illustration, the demonstration of the tough time that she might have when it comes to young African American voters who she desperately needs in order to secure the nomination. She has the traditional NAACP's civil rights leaders but for these young members of Black Lives Matter, they say they didn't want a meeting with her necessarily, they don't want more rhetoric, they really want to see concrete steps, an action that convince them that she's worth supporting, coming out for and voting for, John?

BERMAN: So, Van, quickly, what's your advice then given the desires of the movement? What's your advice to candidates about how to deal with it going forward?

JONES: Well, first of all, you have to remember you're talking about young people, they were ten, 11 years old when President Obama was elected. Their entire life they've had an African American president, but they've seen all these funerals, they've seen the price of college go up, they've seen jobs go down, they've seen so many of their peers, non-violent drug offenders and others going to prison.

So, just saying hey, I'm a Democrat, vote for me, they are not going to buy it. You've got to not just say it, you've got to come from your heart. You've got to be out there with them so they begin to understand that you're truly on their side. This constituency has to come out. 92, 93, 94 percent for a Democrat to win. If black votes comes out 80 percent for Democrats, Republicans win.

So, you've got - so you got to take these young people seriously at a heart level as well as a rhetorical level.

BERMAN: Yeah, Democrats need big numbers and big percentages both. Ryan Lizza, Van Jones, Suzanna Malveaux, thanks so much.

JONES: Thanks.

BERMAN: Just ahead, the passion that's driving Ben Carson supporters, why they say he's a perfect outsider to put in the White House. Also ahead, former Subway pitchman Jared Fogle in his own twisted words. The secret recordings that help explain why he pleaded guilty to child pornography and other charges.



BERMAN: Tonight, Ben Carson campaigning in Arkansas just finishing up a pep rally to high school in West Memphis. He went into Wednesday's debate leading the Republican pack in one national poll, several state polls, his numbers have been steadily rising so have his campaign donations. That despite his somewhat subdued debate performances. In a full field of self-declared outsiders, he's now drawing the kind of support that party insiders crave. So who are Ben Carson's supporters and why are they so drawn to him? Here is Gary Tuchman.



GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Marty Miller and Judy Varinka (ph) are on the road traveling around the country to Ben Carson events to sell campaign swag and to help sing his praises.

MARTY MILLER, BEN CARSON SUPPORTER: Ben is a great man. Great man. He's got a great, everything, what he says we need - we need it.

TUCHMAN (on camera): And what is it - what is that we need and what is that he says?

MILLER: We need change. Big government. We're getting too big of government.

TUCHMAN (voice over): A few hundred people arrived outside a high school basketball arena in West Memphis, Arkansas two hours early in order to get good seats to see the man many here describe as the most moral candidate. Charlotte Nichols is a college student across the Arkansas border at Old Miss.

CHARLOTTE NICHOLS, BEN CARSON SUPPORTER: I think that if you don't have someone leading who has a moral compass and, you know, is passionate about certain things then he's just going to make bad decisions, but Dr. Carson definitely has very high morals.

TUCHMAN: Jim Lance was the first person in line.

JIM LANCE, BEN CARSON SUPPORTER: I believe in the defense of our constitutional rights and I don't think anybody whose establishment is doing that. TUCHMAN: Ben Carson doesn't have the political experience of most of

his Republican presidential opponents, nor the high profile business experience of Donald Trump and Carly Fiorina. But to his most fervent supporters, it's all just fine. But Fred Rowe who was here with his wife isn't a fervent supporter, at least yet.

FRED ROWE, UNDECIDED VOTER: Yeah, I'm mildly concerned about his lack of political experience, which is one of the reasons I'm here to listen to him.

TUCHMAN: His wife Bessie needs no convincing.

BESSIE ROWE: The man is truly inspiring. He's a Christian. He's a conservative. He's a good man through and through.

TUCHMAN: And what about the controversial statements Dr. Carson has uttered?

BEN CARSON (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: During slavery and I know that's one of those words you're not supposed to say but I'm saying it.

TUCHMAN: He's equated abortion with slavery.


TUCHMAN: Have you heard that comment?


TUCHMAN: How do you feel about that?

HICKS: I agree. You know, I can't tell a woman what to do with her baby, but like Mike Huckabee said, you know, fetuses should have the same protection and the 14th amendment as you or I.


TUCHMAN: Ben Carson is a very different kind of presidential candidate and most here think that's a very good thing.


BERMAN: Gary Tuchman joins us tonight. Gary, what did Ben Carson have to say at the rally tonight?

TUCHMAN: Well, John, as we speak, Dr. Carson is still pressing the flesh following his hour and five-minute speech. He made several indirect references to his lack of political and governmental experience. He said that collectively, Congress has 8700 years of experience. And look where it's gotten us now, if you take that 8700 number and divide it by the total number of people, 535 in the House and the Senate, you get about an average of 16 years of experience for a member. May not be exact, but it's probably relatively close and the crowd here ate that up. He also said that our country was designed for citizen statesmen, not for career politicians. Clearly considering himself a citizen statesman. Finally, John, just before he came here, he was a few miles away across the Mississippi River in Memphis, Tennessee where he visited the national civil rights museum, also known as the Lorraine Motel where 47 years ago this past April, Dr. Martin Luther King Junior was assassinated. John.

BERMAN: All right. Gary Tuchman for us. Thanks so much.

Up next for the first time, audio tapes of disgraced Subway spokesman Jared Fogle revealing some of his darkest secrets involving children.


BERMAN: Secretly recorded phone conversations that reportedly helped bring down former Subway pitch man Jared Fogle are no longer secret. They have been played on the TV show "Dr. Phil." Fogle apparently talking about a sexual interest in children. The tapes were given at the FBI in this past summer. He pleaded guilty to child pornography charges and paying for sex with minors. 14 victims, the youngest just six years old. Tonight in these tapes, we hear from Fogle himself. First, a warning, this is really ugly stuff.


Randi Kaye reports.


JARED FOGLE: Remember Jared from Subway?

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jared Fogle, Subway pitch man, now child porn convict. For the first time sharing sick fantasies with a Florida woman he trusted. She says she secretly recorded his every word, listened to him describing how he lured children in.

FOGLE: You know, we sort of started talking, whatever, we started sharing stories and then you know, we get a little closer and a little closer and a little closer and before you knew it, you know, it was just like it happened.

KAYE: The apparent recordings were made by Rochelle Herman-Walrond, who became suspicious of Fogle's desires for young girls after he appeared on her radio show. She told Dr. Phil she worked with the FBI, recording Fogle's twisted desires for five years. The FBI would not comment, but the U.S. Attorney acknowledges it took the tapes into account before charging Fogle. Herman-Walrond tricked Fogle into thinking she was setting up an under-aged party for him. On the recordings, Fogle suggests it's easiest to seduce children who are vulnerable.

JARED FOGLE: I think that girls from the broken homes could be a possibility, you know. I definitely think that. And you know, just show some affection.

KAYE: She says Fogle told her he even fantasized about touching her own children.

FOGLE: Will you let me see your kids naked?


FOGLE: Yeah?


FOGLE: That would be okay?


FOGLE: How old are your kids again?

HERMAN-WALROND: 10 and 11.

FOGLE: Yeah.


FOGLE: A boy and a girl?


FOGLE: Yeah. I would love to see them naked. We're going to have so much fun, baby. You have no idea.

KAYE: He also confirmed here fears that he did have a thing for middle school girls.

FOGLE: Love the middle school girls, girls are starting to get [EXPLETIVE DELETED] you know.


FOGLE: You know how much I love [EXPLETIVE DELETED]

KAYE: And Fogle said he would love to watch the school girls in the locker room.

FOGLE: Yeah, I would love to try to do that sometime.


FOGLE: That would be so amazing. I would love to put the video camera in there, you know.


FOGLE: At the very least and watch them strip down.

HERMAN-WALROND: The key to finding a child open to his advances Fogle says is picking out the ones who give a special look.

FOGLE: You know who is going to give you the glance, you know what I mean?

I think it's going to be just trying to set it up as best we can, and trying to get them as sexed up as they can and then sort of taking it from there.

KAYE: When he still thought there was going to be a party, Fogle even asked the woman on the other end of the phone, which of the children attending will be most promising and for a description of her children's male and female friends asking for specifics on those who were hot and cute. In the end, there was, of course, no party.


KAYE: Instead, Fogle ended up in jail.


BERMAN: All right. Randi, this is really awful stuff here. Remind us, how much prison time is he looking at?

KAYE: Well, John, as part of his plea deal he's facing five to 12.5 years in prison, but anyone listening to these tapes will probably wonder why he's not going away for a whole lot longer. He actually talks about his first time being with a little girl saying she was 11 or 12 and it "felt so good." He talked about fooling around with little boys who he says were probably 10, 11 or 12 and he even suggests that they go to Thailand, John, where they could be seen with young children and nobody would notice anything was going on. It's really disturbing stuff. We tried calling his lawyer to talk about the tapes - I had no comment. Fogle will be officially sentenced at mid-November. John.

BERMAN: Awful stuff. All right, Randi Kaye, thanks so much. We'll be right back.



BERMAN: Anthony Bourdain got a very painful new tattoo. He let drunk men with a needle and a mallet chisel away at his chest for two hours. And yes, was involved. He chattered lightly about it with Anderson the other day. Take a look.


COOPER: You went to Borneo, you've been to Malaysia before. Has it changed a lot?

ANTHONY BOURDAIN: We did a show many years ago. It was at a sort of a very emotional crossroads of my life, and I wanted to go back and see how things have changed, but I also kind of wanted to go back and see how I felt about things had changed.

COOPER: Did you see it differently? BOURDAIN: I saw it very differently. I was miserable the first time

I was here, but we went this time for their rice harvest festival Gawai (ph). Which is three non-stop days of drinking jungle beverages. I mean, for three solid days. The party just keeps going, but what also keeps going is karaoke.


BOURDAIN: 24 hours a day, basically the same five songs - karaoke.

COOPER: You know what scares me more than tripe?

BOURDAIN: Karaoke.

COOPER: Listening to karaoke. Yes.

BOURDAIN: You go to karaoke ...

COOPER: I've never sung karaoke.


COOPER: I've never. No, I've been invited, I just ...

BOURDAIN: Anyway, it was - it was ...

COOPER: So, Malaysia.

BOURDAIN: It was three days in the jungle of constant drinking, of unlicensed alcoholic beverages, karaoke and tattooing.

COOPER: Oh, that's a dangerous combination.

BOURDAIN: And I thought -- this is what they do. They collect experiences as reflective by tattoos on the body and I thought how bad can it be? Answer, bad.

COOPER: Painful.

BOURDAIN: Two drunk guys, two drunk with like a needle and a bamboo rod and two clubs just hammering into my chest.

COOPER: And they didn't give you anything, no Percocet, no nothing, just some alcohol?

BOURDAIN: I did not plan -- it was -- it was like two homicidal woodpeckers just pounding into my chest for two solid hours for this tiny little thing.

COOPER: Please tell me they weren't at least singing while they were doing this?

BOURDAIN: There was karaoke in the backup. People singing - popular music off key in the background.

COOPER: Wow. Did you scream or anything? BOURDAIN: I tried to look manly on camera.

COOPER: Right.

BOURDAIN: As I do, but -- no, if the cameras were not rolling, I would have been like yelping and weeping and squirming and whining and making ...

COOPER: Maybe some of that is on the Ed room floor.


BERMAN: He suffers for you. Do not miss Anthony Bourdain "Parts Unknown" in the jungle paradise of Borneo.


It's this Sunday night at 9:00 Eastern. Wow. That does it for us. CNN tonight with Don Lemon starts now.