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Reviewing Last Night's GOP Debate; University of Missouri Students Protest, Oust President; Man Killed After Being Tazed By Police Over and Over. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired November 11, 2015 - 22:00   ET



[22:00:00] DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Guys, look at this, caught on camera, a handcuffed man tazed by police over and over and over again, an hour later, he's dead. Who is to blame?

This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.

We have the very latest on the chocking story. Plus, Donald Trump says he had a great time at last night's debate.


DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Eight people on the stage, which is nice. You know, we had 10. We -- we started off with 17. And one by one by one they're disappearing. Disappearing. It's a beautiful thing to watch as they go out. I love it. Every day another one goes out.


LEMON: Now who wins? Who loses? And will immigration be the hot button issue that decides this race to the White House? Fox fire brand Michelle Malcolm weighs in on that. That's right, she is here.

Also, is free speech under fire on college campuses across America. I'm going to talk to a man who knows a lot of about college life today, none other than Mr. Frank Bruni will join me.

But let's -- we got a lot going on tonight. I want to get -- I'll start with the race for the White House and Donald Trump saying something pretty surprising.

CNN's Athena Jones joins me. Athena, Donald Trump was just on Fox News and he talked about his competition at the debate. Let's listen to it.


BILL O'REILLY, FOX NEWS HOST: I think Cruz is closer to you than Rubio is, last word?

TRUMP: Well, you know, it's very interesting. I was standing next to Rubio last night. We got along fantastically well. This is a nice guy. And Ted has been fantastically -- we've had -- I have a lot of good relationships that you wouldn't even believe.

And, you know, last night standing on that stage people that you would think are not along with me or we don't get along with, you know, we have actually some pretty good relationships.


O'REILLY: Now, listen, I maybe may...

TRUMP: So, it would be surprising to people.


LEMON: So, Athena, Donald Trump, I mean, being so nice right there. Was he that nice at the debate last night?

ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Don. It is interesting to hear him say such kind words about his rivals. But I guess we did see a somewhat nicer Donald Trump. It was a substantive and policy driven debate. We didn't hear him making as many personal attacks that we've heard him making the past.

But he was still Donald Trump, so we still get some digs in. For instance, at one point, he seemed to suggest that Governor Kasich of Ohio's success seem from the fact that his state discovered oil from the fracking industry.

He said, hey, you're lucky, you guys, struck oil in Ohio. He also seemed to be taunting Governor Bush when he said, hey, you know, let Jeb speak. Let Jeb get a word in. So, while we saw a somewhat a kinder, gentler Trump, he was still Trump.

LEMON: Yes. You mentioned Jeb Bush, you've been with Jeb Bush all day. How does he think he did last night?

JONES: He felt like he did well. I actually (TECHNICAL DIFFICULTY) with those longer responses.



JEB BUSH, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I thought it was fine. I did -- I did well. I talked about issues that are important to people. We need to start thinking about how, who is the person that can beat Hillary Clinton, rather than trying than trying to get into small differences between each campaign.


LEMON: Joining me now, Hugh Hewitt, host of the Radio Hugh Hewitt Show and author of "The Queen, the Epic Ambition of Hillary Clinton and the Coming of a Second Clinton Era." I know that by heart now. I've seen you everywhere. On this show, on the Sunday shows. Everywhere. OK. So, Hugh, I know you were watching very closely last night. So, who are the winners and who are the losers?

HUGH HEWITT, RADIO HUGH HEWITT SHOW HOST: Yes. Well, the big two winners from the second debate I think have to be Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz. And that's a consensus I think derive from also show me media and all the write-ups.

But I don't want to forget Chris Christie who dominated the first debate. I think one who had heart and minds in Iowa. And I don't want to overlook Carly Fiorina who got the benefit of not only the sharpest jabs at Hillary Clinton but also a couple of great breaks. When they go to break right after you give a great answer that allows Twitter to kind of explode with a lot of affirmations. She had a very good night.

LEMON: Let's talk about minimum wage and immigration. Because that was -- the minimum wage thing was one of the first question. Immigration played very high as well. They were front and center. Let's listen to Jeb Bush's response to the exchange Trump and Kasich had about illegal immigrants who are already here.


TRUMP: We have no choice.



GOV. JOHN KASICH, (R-OH) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You're not going to have back. I'm going to have my back.

BAKER: Governor, we got couple of things here. First of all, governor, you talk...


KASICH: We have grown -- we have grown...

TRUMP: You should let Jeb speak.

BUSH: Thank you, Donald for allowing me speak at the debate. That's really nice of you. I really appreciate that.


BUSH: What a generous man you are. Twelve million illegal immigrants, to send them back, 500,000 a month is just not possible.


[22:05:10] LEMON: So, what do you make of that dynamic between the three candidates there?

HEWITT: Actually John Kasich, Jeb Bush versus Donald Trump and Ted Cruz, it was a great exchange. That's the only misstep I thought among the debate panelists last night was Gerard Baker. He is an old BBC hand. He is a terrific editor-in-chief at Wall Street Journal. He had the best accent by far of anyone who stands any of these debates thus far.

But he ought to have let that gone on a little more. Because Trump, Cruz, tag teaming Kasich and Bush was very interesting. And maybe when we get together on December 15th at The Venetian in Las Vegas, that will develop again.

Because I was glued to my TV set. It was great television. On the other hand, Jeb Bush had a very good night with moments like that using humor and his pin sent for common sense mockery. I'm going to talk to him on my Friday radio show. And I think we're going to pick up on that a little bit more.

LEMON: Do you -- I want to know, do you think that Clinton -- Clinton's team they tweeted out saying that they were high fiving last night. But do you think Kasich and Bush are right when they talk about deporting the illegals who are already here?

HEWITT: I think it's interesting. I think that both Kasich and Bush are right about how you talk about this is very important. And then Ted Cruz is very importantly hitting the note about we have to be a rule of law nation.

And Donald Trump has got Hillary endorsing defense. So, Donald Trump won that round. This is a complicated, very, very interesting issue for 2016, that I think will go through a few iterations.

But here's what they were not high fiving about last night. A number of the republican candidates took direct aim at Hillary's foreign policy. And I'll tell you that trailer for 13 hours, the Michael Bay movie that ran for 4.5 minutes, that's devastating to Hillary Clinton.

That was the best moment the republican had last night. I think that the loser, I wrote this for CNN opinion this morning for our friends over there at, Hillary was the loser last night because she looked at that stage and she said, I don't want to face a half dozen or seven or eight of these people. They'll take me to pieces. They'll take me a part joining for show the...


LEMON: Let me -- let me read part of your column. Let me read a part of your column because she was mentioned 25 times last night, and at least 25 times. OK. But you said "Hillary is every republican's target, thought by many rank-and-file average Americans to be protected by the media, and a dreadful candidates 25 years or more older than some of her possible competitors." Do you think the candidate's ages are significant?

HEWITT: Yes. I think we see the inversion of 2008. In 2008, an old but very serious John McCain got blown out by a young not much known about Barack Obama because Americans watch television and they assess presidential candidates on a variety of basis.

One of them being, who can I look at for four or eight years, who can be in my living room for that long and President Obama won that over Senator McCain. I think if you flash forward and you've got Marco Rubio or Ted Cruz up against Hillary Clinton or Carly Fiorina or Chris Christie, Hillary Clinton is afraid of that match-up.

LEMON: Listen, let's move on and talk a little bit more about the democrats without the republicans. So, there is a debate this Saturday night. You know, they are holding pattern -- republicans holding pattern until now until the CNN debate on December 15th. I should say they are in a holding pattern. So, talk about the -- what you think is going to happen this weekend at the democratic debate?

HEWITT: I think they will have a tough time having an audience next week for the Hillary and Bernie Show. Because it's not very interesting. She is 68, he is what, 71. They're living in the '70s. People are tired of the 70's, people don't know that they know -- Chris Christie last night, Don, talked about the cyber-attacks that China launched against us.

Ted Coppell has this brand new book out "Lights Out." This is a brand new very dangerous world. Hillary Clinton mismanagement -- mismanaged it for four years at state. Bernie Sanders is just not connecting -- I don't believe with anyone outside of this demographic which are the old hippies that which would stock would come back.

So, I just think they're going to have tough time mobilizing a lot of people to watch that.

LEMON: That's your demographic, Hugh.

HEWITT: And they are going to have to do.

LEMON: That's your time.

HEWITT: No, no, no, I'm much younger than them. Thank God, I'm much younger than them. I'm older than you but I'm younger than them.

LEMON: I've got to say you're being an ageist here. Well, look, she could say I will not talking about the republican. I will not exploit for political purposes my opponents, youth and inexperience? What if she use that old line from Ronald Reagan?

HEWITT: I'm not being an ageist but I think Marco Rubio -- I'm not being and ageist but I think Marco Rubio last night pointed out that we are in a generational change election where a lot of people have grown up in a mobile world which is completely social media drenched.

LEMON: So, it's different than the Ronald Reagan when he was 69? When he was elected president?

HEWITT: Oh, absolutely.


HEWITT: Because he could dominate three television sets, three networks, four networks, including CNN and he could deliver a message over the heads of everyone. Now people have to be so nimble so funny. And humor always wins.

[22:09:59] And I think our side, my side, the republican side is just a lot funnier and a lot more at ease with the many different mediums out that are out there.

LEMON: Yes. Especially, well, look at Saturday Night Live this past weekend. Funny, funny stuff. Thank you, Hugh Hewitt.

HEWITT: Always a pleasure, Don.

LEMON: And when we come right back, what maybe the most surprising moment at the GOP debate and what it could mean for the race. Plus, Frank Bruni is here and he tells us which two candidates had a bad night.


LEMON: Latest GOP debate full of issues that are important to voters. So, how did the candidates do?

Inside now from Bob Cusack, editor-in-chief of The Hill, republican strategist, Mindy Finn, and Bob Beckel, CNN political commentator and author of "I Should be Dead. My Life Surviving Politics, TV, and Addiction"

So, why don't we start with Mr. Beckel. Good evening to everyone. Thank you for joining us.

You know, Donald Trump, Ben Carson both started this debate last night saying that they would not raise the minimum wage. Trump also said that wages are too high, too high.


LEMON: So, it's got to be music to the democrats here, right?

BECKEL: Yes. And by the way, tell Hugh Hewitt what this fight looks like. I was there, as far as I can remember. The, listen, Donald Trump, the big story here that has not been exploited by the democrats and should be is that Donald Trump's armor took a crack last night in two ways which were significant.

[22:15:09] His all slogan, no substance campaign so far he got away with. But last night he came out with minimum wage of 15 bucks. When his basis support are people that make 13 and $14 an hour and want minimum wage. That's number one.

And number two, when Rand Paul took him on. But he went on a great length about China and the TPP and the trade agreement and then how they exploited it so much and all that. And Paul looked down stage and said, Don, China's not in that trade agreement.


BECKEL: In fact, that agreement is put together because of China.


BECKEL: And it shows that he has no substance whatsoever. But he's good. I mean, I won't take that away from him. But, you know, he's not going to be able to get away with this bumper sticker mentality for the rest of the campaign.

LEMON: So, but, listen, let's talk about this the minimum wage and I think, is this what -- are you referring to last night, you said it exposed the split between right wingers and the establishment. How is that? What do you mean by that?

BECKEL: No. Well, that split has been getting bigger and bigger all the time. I mean, it goes back to Barry Goldwater. It's not getting that out. What it means is that if you take the $15 -- let's take immigration for a second.

You know, the commerce department that Ted Cruz wants to do away with twice, you look at the people who take these jobs who come in who are undocumented workers, they're not taking the jobs of people in the United States. They're getting 6, 7 bucks an hour. And yet, you know, the establishment...


LEMON: I'm going to have Michelle Malcolm later and she'll going to beg to differ with you.

BECKEL: Well, I'm sure she is. That's nothing new about that. But, you know, the truth be told they like illegal immigrants. So, does Jeb Bush. I mean, the Bush family. Because in Texas, when I lived down there nobody argued about it. They came in, did the picking and left.

LEMON: Mindy, do you agree with that, do you think that the illegal immigrants are not taking these jobs?

MINDY FINN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Look, I think that Marco Rubio really had one of the best lines on this yesterday. Which is the issue, you know, if you're somebody who really needs a job, actually Ted Cruz has a good -- had a good point about it, too. You do -- and you're having trouble finding a job, you do believe that illegal immigrants are taking those job. And so, it is an economic issue.

You know, there are two sides to the story there. But in some states, I mean, there is a real feeling among the population there as they're struggling to find jobs and they are citizens and, you know, they're seeing the trouble with immigration in terms of crime and they also see it as an economic issue.

LEMON: Did you think, Bob Cusack that this immigration the difference between Jeb Bush and Donald Trump and Kasich, do you think that immigration would have would play such a role in the campaign for these republicans?

BOB CUSACK, THE HILL EDITOR-IN-CHIEF: Yes, absolutely. Because it played a huge role in 2008. Remember, Mitt Romney moved way to the right on immigration hard line and went after Rick Perry. And that was part of the reason he won the republican nomination. And for some reason, he didn't move back to the middle for the general election.

Really had no immigration reform policy, part of the reason he lost and really lost kind of big. So, it's not a surprise. And the minimum wage is interesting. Carson, a few months ago, did say that he did raising the minimum wage.

So, I think the debate was a big win for Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz. And you know, talking to establishment republicans, they don't want Trump, they don't want Carson, they don't want Cruz. And they are starting to think, OK, Rubio is our hope. Because there are so many doubts about Jeb Bush. He had an OK night but he did not have a big night.

LEMON: And what about Ben Carson, did you think he had an OK night or he had a big night?

CUSACK: I think he had an OK night. I also think Trump had his weakest debate but nothing I think is going to be plummeting his numbers or Carson's. I think you probably get a bounce for Rubio and you are going to get a bounce for Cruz. So, the senators that are doing well in this race, the governors; former governors, not so much.

LEMON: Mindy, do you think that Ben Carson proved in this debate that he can be president last night?

FINN: No. I mean, I don't think it was a terrible debate for him. But it was a meh debate. You know, I was surprised that some of the other candidates didn't really attack him. I think it's just a sign they -- despite where he stands in the polls they don't see him as a threat, as someone who will go the distance.

You know, I think Rubio really did get a 10. I would put Cuz and Fiorina at a 9. I think the thing we have to remember though, is this isn't political gymnastics where we as a panel here get to say based on content and style, these are those that won.

It is the popular vote. And actually right now with the popular vote, despite how they've done in the debate, Trump and Carson continue to do well.

LEMON: All right. So, the consensus is that Rubio did well last night. So, let's about, this is a new super PAC ad from Marco Rubio. Look.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A world gone out of control and getting worse. A shaky economy leaves millions behind while Washington, D.C. and Wall Street are doing just fine. And they wonder why we're angry.

[22:20:06] So, when we started to make this ad we had to decide which conservative candidate for president to support. Ted Cruz, the bold and brilliant conservative mind? Donald Trump, a leader in business and media. Ben Carson, world renowned neurosurgeon and faithful conservative?

It's a tough choice. So, you know who we asked, Hillary Clinton and the democrats. For once, they told the truth. They admitted there is one candidate who scares Hillary Clinton and that is Senator Marco Rubio.

Democrats say...


LEMON: OK. So, what's your reaction to that Bob Beckel? Does Marco Rubio scare the democrats and Hillary Clinton the most?

BECKEL: Sure. I mean, look, the republicans have permanently unless they somehow change and every mindset change. They have alienated the Hispanics in this country. The fastest growing group in the country, voters.

You know, it was it just eight years ago that 80 percent of the electorate was white. This time around it's going to be 70 percent. You can't win the presidency of the United States and lose the Hispanic vote 2 to 1. I mean, it's just not possible.

LEMON: His finances won't be a weakness for him even though you think that they are afraid of him?

BECKEL: Oh, listen, the Hispanic piece of it is there, he is very good debater. He's a good debater. I tell you what really scares me is a combination of Rubio and Kasich. Then you got Florida and Ohio and we have to win one of those. I mean, we can't win democrats, cannot win the country without winning one of those two states. And that's a tough -- that's a tough deal.

LEMON: All right. Thanks everyone. I appreciate it. Up next, more on the debate performances for the republicans -- the republicans last night. Frank Bruni of the New York Times is here.


LEMON: Thirteen and a half million people tuned in for the GOP debate, it is in Milwaukee, it was last night. But my next guest says two of the candidates, two of them ran into trouble tonight. That is New York Times columnist Frank Bruni. He joins me now. Here's your comment, I have a copy of it. You said -- it's always great to have you after the debate.


LEMON: A troubled GOP debate for Donald Trump and Jeb Bush. How you reach that conclusion?

BRUNI: I think Jeb needed last night to knock the ball out of the park. And he got on base, which is better than he stand on previous debates. But he is pulling solo, he's got so many people to persuade and convince.

And while other candidates were still more forceful. There were number of times when he said something and on somebody else rushed in and said it with more possess, with force, more crisply. That's not good for him.

LEMON: He hired a media adviser; he has been training for the debates. It didn't pay off?

BRUNI: It paid off somewhat. This is not his natural habitat.

LEMON: Yes, you can tell.

BRUNI: This is not -- this is not where he excels. And so, it's really tough for him and I think that comes across.

LEMON: OK. Let's watch this for a moment because I want to talk to you about it. Look.



SEN. RAND PAUL, (R-KY) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Ronald Reagan was strong but Ronald Reagan didn't send troops in the Middle East.

CARLY FIORINA, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And Ronald Reagan walked away at Quebec (ph). He walked away, he quit talking...


PAUL: Can I finish my time? Can I finish my time?

TRUMP: Why does she keep interrupting everybody?

PAUL: Yes. I'd like to finish -- I'd like to finish my response.


LEMON: It didn't go over well. He was booed and he was also booed when he made a mean remark about Kasich. And here's what you said, "Trump's bullying is getting as old as bellicosity as his bellicosity is wearing thin, and this debate, the fourth meeting of republican candidates made that abundantly clear." So, you might think that as opponents might think that but are there real signs voters actually think that way?

BRUNI: We won't know for many days and any pollster who are out in the field now we're not going to see their polls for a couple of days. I do think that people are getting a little bit tired of his bullying. And especially because he is such a thin-skinned bully.

You know, why did he say that about Carly Fiorina, because she's been critical of him and was very critical of him in the debate last night. As soon as you go after him, he belittles you, he dismisses you, there was that moment with Kasich. I just think it plays very small.

LEMON: But he is still at the top. Still at the top of the poll.


BRUNI: He's at the top for now.

LEMON: Been there for a while.

BRUNI: He's been there for a while but, you know, I think these debates change things. I think he will wear out his welcome. I would be very surprise if his poll numbers are this good in a month or two.

LEMON: OK. Now, on to the other person who is at the top of the polls. Let's talk about Ben Carson now because he has, you know, he has been feuding with the media. As you know it.

He showed up at Liberty University today where he urged students to stand up against what he calls secular progressives. He also recently blames secular progressives for criticizing his theory that Joseph stored grain in the Egyptian pyramids. He also said this.


CARSON: So many in the media, you know, want to bring me down because I represent something that they can't stand. But the fact of the matter is, in Romans chapter 8, it said "If God be for you, who could be against you?" You don't have to worry.


LEMON: So, that went over well for that crowd.

BRUNI: Oh, Liberty, yes, of course.

LEMON: Absolutely. So, is the media really disdainful of religious candidates like Ben Carson? People, candidates who appeal to religious folks?

BRUNI: No. I don't think we're disdainful. I think we are wary of candidates who lead with religion, who make religion the very center of everything they do and say.

LEMON: Because?

BRUNI: Well, because this is not theocracy and you're not running for pastor in chief. I saw a comment that Ben Carson the other day where he was defending his honesty in a way that he said "Of course I'm honest, I'm a God-fearing Christian."

I don't like when people hide behind religion like that. We had a lot of people in public life who call themselves God-fearing Christians who ended up being plenty dishonest. So, just your religion is not the case for your candidacy.


BRUNI: That's what we're wary of not disdainful of.

LEMON: But religion is a part of being a republican especially for Evangelicals. A large part of the voting block for republicans. BRUNI: Republicans and that genuflecting before Christian

Evangelicals in a way that doesn't hurt them in the general election. That's one of the tensions in the party that's going to get resolved at some point.

LEMON: Chris Christie took a shot at democrats last night saying that, talking about democrats are letting lawlessness -- lawlessness reign. Seemingly, it was a shot at the Black Lives Matter movement. He followed up on that today. Here it is.


GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R-NJ) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No President of the United States should dignify, dignity a group like that by saying anything positive like them and no candidate for President of the United States like Hillary Clinton should give them credibility by meeting with them. Yes, she's done that.

[22:30:05] So, I want the Black Lives Matter people to understand. Don't call -- ask me for meeting you're not getting one.


LEMON: What do you think?

BRUNI: There are -- there reasons to be critical of some of the Black Lives Matter movement. Saying that no presidential should meet with them is ridiculous. You are running to be the leader of the entire country.

You are running to unite people not divide them. And I don't think you can just dismiss an entire group, you know, a group that was born from some very real grievances. I don't think you can dismiss them out of hand like that. But that is absolutely going to be popular with a certain part of the conservative base and that is playing to you.

LEMON: You said there are some real reasons to be critical of them. But you can -- everyone is open to criticism.

BRUNI: Absolutely. Which is why you should meet with them. I just don't think it's a good idea to say that that's slice of the electorate over there I'm going to ignore them entirely.

LEMON: So, listen there is an ongoing dialogue about race that are happening around the country. Now, the University of Missouri really has been at the center of the upheaval with the protesters. They manage to oust both the university president also the chancellor. They also expressed a lot of anger at the media for violating what they call safe spaces.

Where does this idea of safe spaces come from? Because some people they understand it and they really believe it in. And others say I don't -- I have no idea what that means.

BRUNI: Well, I think we have to be careful when we're using the adjective "safe," right. Every student on every campus deserves to be physically safe, deserves to be safe from intimidation, all of these things. This notion of that you should be safe from uncomfortable ideas, you should be safe from discussions that displease you.


BRUNI: We have to be careful and nuanced here about where we're drawing the lines. And I do worry this. I'm going beyond Missouri here. Because the students all seem to have some very, very real complaints.

I like the fact that students, you know, get together, speak out and use their free speech to effect change. But looking beyond that university, we have to be careful that we don't turn colleges, which are supposed to be unsettling places intellectually provocative places, that we don't turn them into just -- into just cuddling rooms.

LEMON: Yes. And to places where we cuddle because that's part -- you're supposed to get life experiences there. I just want to take a look at the -- this is video, this is from Yale and this would -- they were in an assembly and they were to promote free speech. A student came in interrupted it.

And I'm wondering if, you know, this sort of thing has been brewing on college campuses for a while. It's a little disturbing. I think you're right about don't cuddle people.

BRUNI: Yes. No. I mean, everyone has the right to speak out about their ideas. You should not intimidate people, you know, you should certainly not threaten them. But we need to be super careful as students say I don't want to listen to this speaker, you know, I want this to sort of warnings on my text. We cannot go too far because them we're violating the very premise and promise of education.

LEMON: Always a great guest. Great conversation. Thank you, Frank Bruni.

BRUNI: Thanks. Thank you.

LEMON: Please, come back. All right.

Coming up, the GOP is a house divided especially on immigration and Michelle Malkin, yes, that's right. Michelle Malkin has a lot to say about that. She is here live next.


LEMON: One of the hottest issues in last night's debate, immigration, of course. And my next guest has very strong opinions about that.

So, joining me now is Michelle Malkin. She is the author of " Sold Out: How High-Tech Billionaires & Bipartisan Beltway Crapweasels Are Screwing America's Best and Brightest Workers."

MICHELLE MALKIN, "SOLD OUT" AUTHOR: I thought you're going to say crap about CNN.

LEMON: I know. And we're going to talk about...

MALKIN: I'm done. Mission accomplished.

LEMON: Well, talk about crap weasels, why that word and about this book in a moment.


LEMON: Can we get to this debate that happened last night?


LEMON: Let's watch one moment on immigration and then we'll talk about.


SEN. TED CRUZ, (R-TX) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And I will say for those of us who believed people ought to come to this country legally and we should enforce the law. We're tired of being told anti- immigrant. It's offensive and it is not compassionate to say we're not going to enforce the laws and were' going to drive down the wages for millions of hardworking men and women. That is abandoning the working...


LEMON: So, you got John Kasich on one side, Jeb Bush on the other side -- Jeb Bush on the same side. And then you have Ted Cruz and Donald Trump. This rift in immigration is this good or bad do you think for democrats?

MALKIN: Well, I have been in the conservative movement for about a quarter century now and reporting on immigration issues. My very first book was "Invasion" in 2002, talking about all these things that everybody is talking about now.

I mean, there is a lot of Johnny come lately in this debate, and I think it's healthy to have this internal debate about what the priorities should be, what the limitations should be. The kind of triage that the Federal government should be doing. Because everybody agrees that something is broke. And what we disagree on obviously is on where we should start fixing it, and who should get favorite -- favored treatment and preference.

LEMON: So, are you surprised that it's at this level now? It is very important it could decide the election I think in particular in the side of the election.


LEMON: But Donald Trump is saying, you heard him, no one would be talking about it as much as we are talking about it now if it had not been for him. Do you agree or disagree with that?

MALKIN: Well, I think because of his celebrity status. He certainly has pushed it into the forefront in a way that a lot of standard politicians have not been able to. But the fact is, that it is always been an issue in GOP primaries with Pat Buchanan with Tom Tancredo and of course, a lot of people in the conservative movement who've been reporting on the impact, not only on national security and not only in public safety.

That the theme of "Invasion." But with regard to this book, on the economic impact, on U.S. workers, on both ends of the pay scale. I mean...

LEMON: I haven't had -- I haven't had a chance to read your -- but I read the cliff notes, right? Because to be honest. And you talk about that, you talked about, you know, what illegal immigration does for workers here.

Bob Beckel was on earlier and say -- saying, no, they don't take jobs from Americans who are here living.

MALKIN: Well, he is in fantasy land. And I think particularly for the Democratic Party, all should be a huge wakeup call. Because Peter Kirsanow is a black independent lawyer who serves on the U.S. Civil Rights Commission and he has long warned based on academic research and real life everyday experience on the trenches on how illegal immigration.

[22:40:03] Of course, it has an impact particularly on black underemployed and unemployed people who are at the low end in it, low wage and middle wage. Look at South Central Los Angeles; look at the way it is transformed. You can't have -- you can't pretend that there are no impact and no consequences.

LEMON: So, who has the best plan then, out of all these people who are from the stage, guys and lady?

MALKIN: Yes. So, this is what is wonderful about being able to talk to in a sane atmosphere where people aren't cartoon characters that shouting at each other with platitudes. Because it's not as simple as wall or no wall. Deport every one, deport no one. You have to make choices.

LEMON: But that's what we're hearing from the candidates. So.

MALKIN: Yes. And so, obviously, I think that Trump's plan which was drafted in consultation with one of my heroes in the Senate, Jeff Sessions why I think he had his head perfectly screwed on straight about putting U.S. workers first. And we're talking not only about people who are impacted by illegal immigration -- oh, I just said impacted which is horrible. I hate that word.

It's a pet peeve of mine. Who are negatively affected by illegal immigration but also these foreign guests work for racket and pay attention. Because even this fish rap of record, the fish rap of record The New York Times...


LEMON: Careful (Inaudible)

MALKIN: ... is reporting -- yes, right there, right? Has headlines now. You can't ignore it. Of all of these high-tech, high skilled workers which all the candidates say that they're for, right? We're being replaced and forced to train their cheap substitutes from India.

LEMON: OK. Perhaps you said impacted because you're in the lion's den.

MALKIN: I think that must be on -- it's like the CNN air or something.

LEMON: I want to talk about this. Can we talk about the political correctness, right, because that's been in discussion.


LEMON: It has come up in the GOP debates and then earlier this week, of course there was this dust up on whether Starbucks, those are the red cups with their new red cups whether they are too PC. And even though that we're, you know, able to buy, we were on the show a ton of Christmas stuff, right, at Starbucks. Do you think too much has been made of this?

MALKIN: I think it's the tempest in a Starbucks cup.

LEMON: In its -- in its -- a tempest in a coffee cup.

MALKIN: Look, Christians who are strong in their faith are not going to be offended by a silly cup and they probably weren't drinking at Starbucks anyway because some of their views on the Second Amendment. But you know, talking about PC, you know, the fact is, that we need to defuse this idea that whether it's on a college campus where safe spaces, everyone wants to be protected from dissident speech.

Or whether we're talking about immigration. And the point that Ted Cruz made is absolutely right. The idea that, if you voice policy views that are different from somebody else's that somehow you are a xenophobe or nativist or anti-immigrant, it's ridiculous. We all care about our country and we want to make that it is still around for our kids and grandkids.

LEMON: Well, Frank Bruni who sat in that chair just before you said a similar thing that we have to be careful about that. Just because you disagree with someone that you want to stop them from speaking. Can we talk about this book now?


LEMON: So, I'm sure that's an important to you. "Sold Out: How High- Tech Billionaires & Bipartisan Beltway Crapweasels Are Screwing America's Best and Brightest Workers."


LEMON: So, who or what exactly is a crapweasel? MALKIN: You know, they are those politicians that say one thing to

get elected and then do the exact opposite, who are pocketing money from special interests when they get to Washington. Which includes about pretty much everybody who goes to Capitol Hill and becomes an entrenched incumbent and beltway barnacle.

And that's particularly the case with many politicians on both sides of the aisle. And that's what I think a lot of people have misconception about where I'm coming from because I am not a partisan cheerleader. And this book as sharply, if not more, criticizes republicans for selling out American workers than democrats.

LEMON: There are people who are out there who would say you are not -- are you kidding me?

MALKIN: I'm a shocked face, right?

LEMON: Why do you say that, do you think that everything has become too ideological, too right, and too left? Because as you, I have it on the show and I've said it that Megan and I, Megyn Kelly, who is at -- we talk. We don't always agree. But we are still friends.


LEMON: But you don't see that. You don't see that on social media. You don't see that in public. People everybody is like I'm to the left, I'm to the right and we cannot meet, we can't talk. That's it.

MALKIN: Yes. And it particularly becomes that -- it becomes that way during, you know, primary seasons and general election seasons. And the fact that we can talk like this right now I think is an amazing miracle and moment. And I can't wait to go on Twitter and see how people's heads are popping off because of it.

LEMON: But you can be here and promote this book. And we thank you for coming on and you're welcome back any time.

MALKIN: I appreciate it, Don.

LEMON: Thank you. Best of luck. All right. Up next, a man who is -- who is tased again and again dies in police custody. Was it excessive force?


LEMON: Tonight, newly released surveillance video shows a Virginia man being tasered multiple times by police officers. There is the video. It happened 2013. He is outside an emergency room.

Linwood Lambert was in custody, handcuffed, and being taken to the hospital for evaluation. But after tasing him, officers don't bring him inside. They return him to a squad car. Lambert goes into cardiac arrest and he dies later in the hospital.

The medical examiner rules the cause of death is cocaine intoxication but his family is filing a $25 million suit for wrongful death. No criminal charges were filed against the officers and the department is defending their action.

So, joining me now, legal commentator Areva Martin is here to talk about it as well as Harry Houck, who is a CNN law enforcement analyst, who is also a retired New York City police detective.

Areva Martin, to you -- thank you -- thank you, guys for coming on. Areva, you know, here's the thing, though, this video, I mean, it looks terrible. There is no reason for this man to have lost his life. But the coroner saws that Lambert died for his cocaine use.

If the coroner saw this video while conducting the investigation do you think that that would have impacted the findings? The taser marks are noted in that report.

AREVA MARTIN, CNN LEGAL COMMENTATOR: Well, we have to note, Don, that coroner is a medical examiner. And in this case, the civil case is going forward, you should expect that the family will have its own independent medical expert who will testify about the cause of death.

[22:50:01] And they are contesting that the cause of death was the small amount of cocaine found in his system and that the cause was really the 20 times that he was tased.

I think the numbers break down to somewhere between 87 seconds of being tased. I think it's also important to note in this case, Don, this started with the police going to help a man...

LEMON: Right.

MARTIN: ... who apparently, was having a psychotic break or suffering from hallucinations or some kind of mental health issues were going on. And things were going OK until this man acknowledged that he had used cocaine. And all of a sudden, we see this really ugly turn of events and this aggressive conduct by these officers, conduct that even seems to be in violation of their own policies with respect to using a taser when someone is contained.


MARTIN: So, there is a lot of issues in this case that are troubling when you see this man in restraint, but yet, the tasing continues. It looks like the officers are just drunk with power. That's all that I can say about this troubling video.

LEMON: I have to say, though, that the 20 times, though, that that is part of the lawsuit that's filed against the police department.

CNN has not been able to independently verify that claim. But, you know, as you said, it does look excessive. Harry, I have to ask you this. Originally, as he said, was taken for mental evaluation to a hospital, and then, you know, he kicked the police car, and then kicked the door. So, why would they take him away from the hospital?

HARRY HOUCK, RETIRED NEW YORK POLICE DETECTIVE: Well, I think that's where they made a mistake. Areva, I'm agreeing with you on this caper. OK. MARTIN: All right, Harry. I have a good night.

HOUCK: Yes. So, let me tell you something, the officers were fine up to where they got the gentleman, you know, they wrapped his feet. So, he can...


LEMON: Shackled. You and I agree. I said this earlier on the situation that when..

HOUCK: Right.

LEMON: ... once they shackled his feet they could have called someone medical help in the hospital to come out...

HOUCK: Right

LEMON: ... and sedate him and put him on a gurney, right, to tie him on securely?

HOUCK: What we do in the NYPD in this this situation is have a gurney come out, all right, put him on the gurney and strap him up and let the doctors take care of him. the fact that he said...


LEMON: They are shackling his feet right there.

HOUCK: Right. You know, that he used cocaine. You want to arrest him for the use of cocaine or for kicking out the window; you can still do that when the man is in the hospital. There is no problem.

They made a big mistake trying to bring him back. Listen, it was very evident to me and probably everybody looking at this man that he was -- he was suffering from some kind of psychotic event.

You now, he didn't just commit an armed robbery who's trying to escape from police. There was a problem with this man, and they acted properly all up to that point. Now when they tased that man on the backseat and they tried him to sit up, that was wrong. It should not have happened.

LEMON: And the reason they said they didn't want to take him in because they didn't know how he was going to act inside the hospital. He's going to hurt other people, but still -- you say...


HOUCK: We go through that all the time.

LEMON: Yes. So, again, strap him to the gurney and sedate him.

HOUCK: Right, exactly.

LEMON: But the thing -- you said that, many times when you were an officer you had the ambulance come to the scene.

HOUCK: Right. When we had on what we called EDP person, an emotionally disturbed person, as we call them back then, they changed the medical police they correct. The fact is, what we would wait on the scene and we have the ambulance show up and then we either shackle him to a chair or shackle him to a gurney and then bring him to the hospital and then guard him at the hospital while they were psycho -- doctors would see him and calm down and give him whatever drug he needed.

LEMON: All right. So, Areva, it's clear that he requires some sort of mental health care.


LEMON: But do police officers need to be better trained when it comes to these types of cases?

MARTIN: Absolutely. They need to be better trained, Don, and they also need to use additional resources. I think in so many of these videotapes we're always asking the question, how come they didn't request additional resources.

How come no one is on their radio talking to a supervisor or talking to someone who has that kind of mental health training to figure out how best to deal with a man that's combative like this man is. He ran into a glass door. So obviously, something is going on with him that needs to be attended to.


LEMON: Could that have to do that they didn't call that you -- and again, I don't know the full story they very well could have not, but if they did not call for additional backup, that maybe it's a resource issue? Maybe it's a budget issue or just bad training?

MARTIN: We're just hearing too many of these stories, Don. When you talk about a resource issue, you think about the millions and millions of dollars that are being paid out in these civil lawsuits.

There is a $25 million lawsuit pending. Now that's just the number that's contained in the complaint. So, we don't know if a jury will reach a verdict in favor of the family or how much they will award.

But we do know that across this country hundreds of millions of dollars are being paid in civil lawsuits. And as a lawyer, that's one of the ways that we use to change systems. We file lawsuits. And hopefully, though, civil damages just sends a message to police departments that you have to change. You have to train officers differently.

But those resources, those -- those civil damages could be used for the kind of resources and training that obviously were needed in a case like this.

LEMON: Do you think that they should have been disciplined because they had been investigated, they were cleared to someone even had been promoted after this happened?

[22:55:03] HOUCK: Right. Well, I think the tasing in the backseat should -- something it shouldn't have happened regarding that. I mean, there is no doubt. There is a sergeant on the scene here. This looks to me there is a lack of experience. All right?

Well, the sergeant on the scene he should have took over and said, OK, put that man on that man on a gurney and get him inside to the hospital. He definitely has some kind of psychological problem.

That is the problem here. And maybe they didn't have any kind protocol set for something like that. And police officers need to be trained in protocols like this. We are here in New York City and a lot of large cities. Maybe they're not.

LEMON: Police departments do you think looking at this around the country going we better do things differently?

HOUCK: Well, if they don't have the same protocols that NYPD don't, yes, you should definitely do something differently.

LEMON: Yes. Thanks, Areva. Thank you, Harry. I appreciate it.

MARTIN: Thanks, Don. Thanks, Harry for agreeing with me.

HOUCK: OK, Areva. You got it. We'll argue next time.

LEMON: Mark it on your calendars, everyone. We will be right back.


[23:00:01] LEMON: Thanks for joining us. We'll see you back here tomorrow night. AC360 starts right now.